RE: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man?
Tony, DO NOT CURSE AT ME I did not curse at you, and I will not tolerate you cursing at me. Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:39:57 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: UnivCity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? Bullshit, Karen. You know better.
RE: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man?
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:39:57 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: UnivCity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? Bullshit, Karen. You know better. Tony, I seem to recall you saying that you left this list because it was uncivil. Yet, you're back here cursing at me because you disagree with me. Or apparantly because I disagree with you. Please show me where in any of MY (not anyone else's) discourse did I curse at you or show you any similar disrespect. Or is the act of disagreeing with you in itself being disrespectful? I don't care how you or anyone else on the list talk to each other. I personally do not curse at people, and I will not tolerate being cursed at. Ever. I am not going to be bullied with profanity, and I am not intimidated by verbosity. I urge that we all write, all the time, as if we are writing in public -- and read as if we are reading in private. This from someone who just cursed at me out of the blue. BTW: I stand by what I said. Those were not public meetings because the proper notice did not go out, and people outside the target audience of members did not have an opportunity to attend. Even SHCA President Cindy Roberts admitted that the Spruce Hill meeting was not public when Chris O'Donnell challenged it on that basis. Lussenhop cannot go before any Zoning or any other official body that requires public meetings and claim that these meetings satisfied that requirement. And cursing at me won't change that. I am a tolerant man. Every public communication medium should be respected, in my view; just cut it the slack that it needs.Why are you so hostile to other forms of public communication? Let's everybody get away from this internet rage What??? I don't even know what you're talking about. As far as hostility is concerned, you're the one bringing that subject up, and you're the one cursing, so who's hostile? Karen Allen Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 23:39:57 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: UnivCity@list.purple.com Subject: Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? Bullshit, Karen. You know better. Lussenhop didn't run either of these meetings and I never said he did. Other people ran them: Glenn Bryan at 1st Thursday and Cindy Roberts at SHCA. Lussenhop showed up, disseminated information and answered questions at them. This is a sin? These meetings were not public in the sense that they met the standards for ZBA public meetings. But Lussenhop never claimed they did. They were public in exactly the same sense the UC-list publications we are now reading, are public. Well, they are and they aren't. Obviously UC-list can't be fully public because its participation is restricted to people with access to computers. Yet it is not wrong for Karen to write on UC-list. If it is not wrong for Karen to communicate on UC-list, it is not wrong for Lussenhop to communicate at 1st Thursday. You are equal neighbors and you have equal right of free public speech in any forum is available. I am a tolerant man. Every public communication medium should be respected, in my view; just cut it the slack that it needs.Why are you so hostile to other forms of public communication? Let's everybody get away from this internet rage. I urge that we all write, all the time, as if we are writing in public -- and read as if we are reading in private. -- Tony WestKAREN ALLEN wrote: Tony,If you are willilng to bear witness that Lussenhop ran open and public meetings, I will bear witness that that is totally untrue. He spoke in front of a membership organization's election meeting, which was advertised only to the members, not to anyone who was not a member, and Lussenhop's presentation was not even on the agenda. Even members were excluded if they chose not to attend the meeting because they were not interested in what was stated on the agenda.Lussenhop spoke to those who happened to be present, or who had heard by other means that he was going to speak. I knew to show up because the project archetect told the HC that Lussenhop was going to a public meeting the following Tuesday.Spruce Hill did not extend the opportunity to all interested parties to hear his presentation. That is not public. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man?
Tony West wrote: Bullshit, Karen. You know better. KAREN ALLEN wrote: Tony, I seem to recall you saying that you left this list because it was uncivil. Yet, you're back here cursing at me because you disagree with me. Or apparantly because I disagree with you. KAREN, YOU IGNORANT SLUT. remember that line? coincidentally, this month's daedalus has an article by amy gutmann called the lure dangers of extremist rhetoric. it begins: In a democracy, controversy is healthy. Complex issues as far-ranging as immigration, health care, military interventions, taxation, and education seldom lend themselves to simple, consensual solutions. The public interest is well served by robust public argument. But when disagreements are so driven and distorted by extremist rhetoric that citizens and public officials fail to engage with one another reasonably or respectfully on substantive issues of public importance, the debate degenerates, blocking constructive compromises that would benefit all sides more than the status quo would. Like many scholars, American citizens today discern a link between the impoverished, divisive discourse that pollutes our politics and culture, and the diminished capacity of America's political system to address intelligently, let alone solve, our most challenging problems--from health care to global warming, from public education to Social Security, from terrorism to this country's eroding competitive advantage in the global economy. To help us understand the nature of this link between extremist rhetoric and political paralysis, let us begin with an example of extremist rhetoric in entertainment, where it is even more common and far less controversial than in politics. Many Americans over the age of forty may remember the weekly Point/Counterpoint segment from 60 Minutes, which pitted the liberal Shana Alexander against the conservative James J. Kilpatrick. Even more will recall the spoof of Point/Counterpoint from Saturday Night Live, where Dan Ackroyd resorted to a show of verbal pyrotechnics as he drove a single point to the ground, while effacing Jane Curtin as an ignorant slut. Jane and Dan were clearly not out either to advance the public interest or to respect one another. Nor should they have been. SNL is, as they say, entertainment. And when extremist rhetoric is intentionally outlandish, it makes for great entertainment. But when it is politically for real, extremist rhetoric has far less benign effects on democratic discourse: it demeans opponents, radically narrows understanding of the issue at hand, and closes off compromise. As we have seen all too vividly, extremist rhetoric has become par for the course of democratic controversy in America. It dominates cable tv news. (Talk radio is even more extreme.) The public issues discussed are complex and important, but little light is shed on them. The entertainment is that of a wrestling match, with far less demonstrable skill. Serious extremist rhetoric has two defining features. First, it tends toward single-mindedness on any given issue. Second, it passionately expresses certainty about the supremacy of its perspective on the issue without submitting itself either to a reasonable test of truth or to a reasoned public debate. gutmann concludes: Democracy's saving grace is that most citizens are put off by demagogues and their techniques. By recognizing that the person with whom we disagree, far from being an ignorant slut, typically has a valid point worth considering, we can work together as fellow citizens who respectfully disagree with one another to give our great constitutional democracy a longer lease on life. http://www.mitpressjournals.org/toc/daed/136/4 .. UNIVERSITY*CITOYEN [aka laserbeam®] [aka ray] SERIAL LIAR. CALL FOR RATES. It is very clear on this listserve who these people are. Ray has admitted being connected to this forger. -- Tony West Ray's falsehoods are more sophisticated, more believable -- Tony West __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man?
KAREN ALLEN wrote: Tony, DO NOT CURSE AT ME I did not curse at you, and I will not tolerate you cursing at me. In other circumstances, I'd be sympathetic to your complaint. But remember, this is a list where cursing has happened in the past, where people other than Tony regularly insult others (a recent assholes' shot seems to have escaped your notice). And please recall that several people here-- need I name names?-- regularly insult the UC Neighbors list because it was set up to be a more civil, friendlier place. In other words, you're demanding Tony follow a kind of civility that you don't demand from others, and on a mailing list where people seem to pride themselves on not being censored. You haven't minded it when other people (including Tony) are cursed at. And you're on a list where asking for Special Treatment is _clearly_ not respected. So I'm not impressed by this. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man?
Why the stretch? Karen was speaking for herself. I find it refreshing that she did not pretend to speak for others who may (or not) be offended by bad language. She did not drag other 'guilty' parties in. She did not adopt the mantle of List Police. I find Karen's posts to be specific and informative. Best! Liz On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:05:43 -0500 Brian Siano [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: KAREN ALLEN wrote: Tony, DO NOT CURSE AT ME I did not curse at you, and I will not tolerate you cursing at me. In other circumstances, I'd be sympathetic to your complaint. But remember, this is a list where cursing has happened in the past, where people other than Tony regularly insult others (a recent assholes' shot seems to have escaped your notice). And please recall that several people here-- need I name names?-- regularly insult the UC Neighbors list because it was set up to be a more civil, friendlier place. In other words, you're demanding Tony follow a kind of civility that you don't demand from others, and on a mailing list where people seem to pride themselves on not being censored. You haven't minded it when other people (including Tony) are cursed at. And you're on a list where asking for Special Treatment is _clearly_ not respected. So I'm not impressed by this. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. Elizabeth Campion Cell Phone: 215-880-2930 215-546-0550 Main, -546-9871 fax, Desk + VM: 215-790-5653 PRUDENTIAL, FOX ROACH REALTORS, LLC Please read Consumer Notice enjoy HOME PILOT tools at www.PruFoxRoach.com You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man?
I actually agree with Liz, and with Karen as well. I do not like printed vulgarity and I try to avoid it myself. It was late at night and I must have been influenced by Frank who, a few hours earlier, had let fly exactly the same epithet at me, I notice. But it is my fault that I allowed myself to be influenced, not Frank's that he influenced me. I do apologize to you, Karen for such pointless language. You did indeed write insulting nonsense, which did deserve to be pointed out. You don't usually, and I bet I won't often see you do so again. It's out of character for you Furthermore, I never left the list. Where did you get that idea? The list stopped accepting my posts, as it did those of several other people. Now it seems to be working again. Thank you, whoever helped fix it! -- Tony West Why the stretch? Karen was speaking for herself. I find it refreshing that she did not pretend to speak for others who may (or not) be offended by bad language. She did not drag other 'guilty' parties in. She did not adopt the mantle of List Police. I find Karen's posts to be specific and informative. Best! Liz On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:05:43 -0500 Brian Siano [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: KAREN ALLEN wrote: Tony, DO NOT CURSE AT ME I did not curse at you, and I will not tolerate you cursing at me. In other circumstances, I'd be sympathetic to your complaint. But remember, this is a list where cursing has happened in the past, where people other than Tony regularly insult others (a recent assholes' shot seems to have escaped your notice). And please recall that several people here-- need I name names?-- regularly insult the UC Neighbors list because it was set up to be a more civil, friendlier place. In other words, you're demanding Tony follow a kind of civility that you don't demand from others, and on a mailing list where people seem to pride themselves on not being censored. You haven't minded it when other people (including Tony) are cursed at. And you're on a list where asking for Special Treatment is _clearly_ not respected. So I'm not impressed by this. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. Elizabeth Campion Cell Phone: 215-880-2930 215-546-0550 Main, -546-9871 fax, Desk + VM: 215-790-5653 PRUDENTIAL, FOX ROACH REALTORS, LLC Please read Consumer Notice enjoy HOME PILOT tools at www.PruFoxRoach.com You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html.
Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? - Gimme uh break
-Original Message- From: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... You did indeed write insulting nonsense,?... ? ... I never left the list.?... The list stopped accepting my posts,... Meaningful apology (?), when you try to catch Counselor Allen with a deftless backhand. ? The list was much more peaceful, during your absence, while your re-emergence?has been: (fill in any number of left-handed comments), Euclid Jr. When a free list stops accepting the posts of the managing-editor of?our local leading political intelligencer, you Tony?should engage either with charm or dollars a?local great IT maven to remedy your deficit, be it hardware or software based; I'm currently ruling out mental illness?as the basis. It does not escape some of us how?sophisticated software and computer networks turn thought into print. That is what the Tayouns have been doing with the Philly Record weekly for quite a few years. On a list where so many members are helpful and considerate of total strangers, you may want to humbly look inward as to why no one stepped up to freely help you address your cyber limitations. Apparently, you don't find this list important enough to have paid your paper's CTO or other quality techno-dude/dudette?to resolve your failures-to-post to this great?list. Peace be with you, soon. Craig As to your inability to post -Original Message- From: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: UnivCity listserv UnivCity@list.purple.com Sent: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? I actually agree with Liz, and with Karen as well. I do not like printed vulgarity and I try to avoid it myself. It was late at night and I must have been influenced by Frank who, a few hours earlier, had let fly exactly the same epithet at me, I notice. But it is my fault that I allowed myself to be influenced, not Frank's that he influenced me.? ? I do apologize to you, Karen for such pointless language. You did indeed write insulting nonsense, which did deserve to be pointed out. You don't usually, and I bet I won't often see you do so again. It's out of character for you? ? Furthermore, I never left the list. Where did you get that idea? The list stopped accepting my posts, as it did those of several other people. Now it seems to be working again. Thank you, whoever helped fix it!? ? -- Tony West? ? Why the stretch?? Karen was speaking for herself.? ? I find it refreshing that she did not pretend to speak for others who may? (or not) be offended by bad language.? ? She did not drag other 'guilty' parties in.? She did not adopt the mantle of List Police.? ? I find Karen's posts to be specific and informative.? ? Best!? Liz? ? ? On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:05:43 -0500 Brian Siano [EMAIL PROTECTED]? writes:? KAREN ALLEN wrote:? Tony,? DO NOT CURSE AT ME? I did not curse at you, and I will not tolerate you cursing at me. In other circumstances, I'd be sympathetic to your complaint.? ? But remember, this is a list where cursing has happened in the past, ? where people other than Tony regularly insult others (a recent assholes' shot seems to have escaped your notice). And please recall that several people here-- need I name names?-- regularly insult the UC Neighbors list because it was set up to be a more civil, friendlier place.? ? In other words, you're demanding Tony follow a kind of civility that you don't demand from others, and on a mailing list where people seem to ? pride themselves on not being censored. You haven't minded it when ? other people (including Tony) are cursed at. And you're on a list where asking for Special Treatment is _clearly_ not respected.? ? So I'm not impressed by this.? ? ? ? ? ? ? You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the? list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see? http://www.purple.com/list.html.? ? ? ? ? Elizabeth Campion Cell Phone: 215-880-2930? 215-546-0550 Main, -546-9871 fax, Desk + VM: 215-790-5653? PRUDENTIAL, FOX ROACH REALTORS, LLC? Please read Consumer Notice enjoy HOME PILOT tools at? www.PruFoxRoach.com? ? You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the? list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see? http://www.purple.com/list.html.? ? ? ? ? You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the? list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see? http://www.purple.com/list.html.? Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? - Gimme uh break
Craig, I have to say that while I often value your posts and always look forward to reading them, nothing you just wrote makes much sense. I apologized once for imitating other people's rude language. But Karen was wrong on a more important point of substance and you know it. You don't aid civility by beating this dead horse. Other people did ultimately fix some of UC-list's problems, which had stopped it from being a public forum in any meaningful sense. They did so because I complained. This was my public service to those who like to use UC-list to orate about public this and public that, because I want this public forum not to be pure baloney. Because I value your words at their best (even if not tonight), I value this forum at all times, for all people. -- Tony West Meaningful apology (?), when you try to catch Counselor Allen with a deftless backhand. The list was much more peaceful, during your absence, while your re-emergence has been: (fill in any number of left-handed comments), Euclid Jr. When a free list stops accepting the posts of the managing-editor of our local leading political intelligencer, you Tony should engage either with charm or dollars a local great IT maven to remedy your deficit, be it hardware or software based; I'm currently ruling out mental illness as the basis. It does not escape some of us how sophisticated software and computer networks turn thought into print. That is what the Tayouns have been doing with the Philly Record weekly for quite a few years. On a list where so many members are helpful and considerate of total strangers, you may want to humbly look inward as to why no one stepped up to freely help you address your cyber limitations. Apparently, you don't find this list important enough to have paid your paper's CTO or other quality techno-dude/dudette to resolve your failures-to-post to this great list. Peace be with you, soon. Craig As to your inability to post -Original Message- From: Anthony West [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: UnivCity listserv UnivCity@list.purple.com Sent: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [UC] What you mean 'public', community man? I actually agree with Liz, and with Karen as well. I do not like printed vulgarity and I try to avoid it myself. It was late at night and I must have been influenced by Frank who, a few hours earlier, had let fly exactly the same epithet at me, I notice. But it is my fault that I allowed myself to be influenced, not Frank's that he influenced me. I do apologize to you, Karen for such pointless language. You did indeed write insulting nonsense, which did deserve to be pointed out. You don't usually, and I bet I won't often see you do so again. It's out of character for you Furthermore, I never left the list. Where did you get that idea? The list stopped accepting my posts, as it did those of several other people. Now it seems to be working again. Thank you, whoever helped fix it! -- Tony West Why the stretch? Karen was speaking for herself. I find it refreshing that she did not pretend to speak for others who may (or not) be offended by bad language. She did not drag other 'guilty' parties in. She did not adopt the mantle of List Police. I find Karen's posts to be specific and informative. Best! Liz On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:05:43 -0500 Brian Siano [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: KAREN ALLEN wrote: Tony, DO NOT CURSE AT ME I did not curse at you, and I will not tolerate you cursing at me. In other circumstances, I'd be sympathetic to your complaint. But remember, this is a list where cursing has happened in the past, where people other than Tony regularly insult others (a recent assholes' shot seems to have escaped your notice). And please recall that several people here-- need I name names?-- regularly insult the UC Neighbors list because it was set up to be a more civil, friendlier place. In other words, you're demanding Tony follow a kind of civility that you don't demand from others, and on a mailing list where people seem to pride themselves on not being censored. You haven't minded it when other people (including Tony) are cursed at. And you're on a list where asking for Special Treatment is _clearly_ not respected. So I'm not impressed by this. You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see http://www.purple.com/list.html. Elizabeth Campion Cell Phone: 215-880-2930 215-546-0550 Main, -546-9871 fax, Desk + VM: 215-790-5653 PRUDENTIAL, FOX ROACH REALTORS, LLC Please read Consumer Notice enjoy HOME PILOT tools at www.PruFoxRoach.com http://www.prufoxroach.com/ You are receiving this because you are subscribed to the list named UnivCity. To unsubscribe or for archive information, see
