Open Process, Interactive Shell on OS X

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

 
Has anyone run an interactive shell session of any kind on Mac OS X? If so can 
you share some code?

in the dictionary it says you cannot use the open process command on OS X to 
run a unix process. but you should use "shell" instead.  

OK that works... but once you get the result back from shell, how do you 
continue to interact with that process if it was not opened by "open process"

You can do this:  

put " sftp someUser:somepassw...@somedomain.com" into tCmd


put shell(tCmd) after fld "SFTPsession"


and you get back "Connected to myDomain.com"

But how would continue to interact?

If we do this:

   put " sftp devhap:v1oletr8z4s...@dev.himalayanacademy.com" into tCmd
   put shell(tCmd) after fld "SFTPsession"
   wait 2 seconds
   put "ls" into tCmd
   put cr & cr (tCmd) after fld "SFTPsession"
   put the result

we get a listing for the current defaultfolder that is the last default folder 
set by the LC stack we are working in which is a local folder and not a remote 
listing.

BR






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[ANN]SoCal LC Group Meeting Thurs in Pasadena

[Richard Gaskin]

The next meeting of the SoCal LiveCode User Group is coming up this 
Thursday in Pasadena - details in the forums:

http://forums.livecode.com/viewtopic.php?f=50=26486

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[J. Landman Gay]

They've put out a call for conference speakers. Maybe you could address it 
there, or set up a panel with other educators who attend.



On February 27, 2016 3:33:05 PM Tore Nilsen  wrote:

One thing I really would hope LiveCode will do, is to find room for this as 
a part of the program for the conference in Edinburgh in August. I have 
already registered and will attend. If there is anything I can do to help 
facilitate this, I am more than happy to do so.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Richard Gaskin]

Tore Nilsen wrote:

> I do agree that this is a kind of task where we, as educators and
> users of LiveCode should do the actual work. However, I think it is
> vitally important that the outcome of such a process has an active
> backing from the company...

Oh indeed it does.

One of the projects we've been cooking up in our community engagement 
meetings is forming an Educational Outreach Team.  Max Shafer has kindly 
offered to be the team leader to help organize things, but do date 
progress has been slow thus far.  We've sent invitations to a number of 
educators to use the forum so we can work out the sorts of projects you 
outlined, but given the overtaxed lives of most educators it's not 
surprising it's taken a while to bring others on board.


I hope your post will help kickstart the process.

For any of you interested in jumping into the discussion, Tore's post is 
here:



Kevin is very strongly supportive of any and all efforts to extend the 
scope of ways LiveCode can be of ever greater value in education.  Even 
though most of these activities center around the Community Edition and 
as such won't help with developer salaries straight away, he fully 
recognizes the value for the platform as a whole and is quite willing to 
support anything the community can accomplish along these lines in any 
way needed.


Let's get this ball rolling and see where we can take it.

Thanks for your very helpful contributions, Tore.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org


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Re: Resizing of a Stack

[Terence Heaford]

Strange

when I change the resize stack handler to the following, I have added unlock 
screen,
it works without the screen flash but the display of the chart is not quite as 
smooth.

Could this point to something I am missing or a problem with LC?


on resizeStack pWidth,pHeight
   unlock screen
   
   myUpdateGeometry
   dispatch "drawBarChart" to group "netWorthChart"

   --pass resizeStack
end resizeStack





> On 27 Feb 2016, at 21:15, Terence Heaford  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply but I am already using El Capitan.
> 
> Perhaps I should reinstall older versions of LC until I find the one that 
> doesn’t cause the problem.
> 
> 
> All the best
> 
> 
> Terry
> 
> 
>> On 27 Feb 2016, at 16:39, Roger Guay  wrote:
>> 
>> Terry,
>> 
>> I had similar experience with all versions of LC in OS X Yosemite. It was 
>> solved by upgrading to El Capitan. 
>> 
>> Roger
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 27, 2016, at 8:53 AM, Terence Heaford  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I have been using some self made Bar Charts in a stack.
>>> 
>>> The bar charts consist of many objects created and placed in a group.
>>> 
>>> When the stack is resized the group is resized accordingly and the bar 
>>> chart created again.
>>> 
>>> Up until the last week or so I have not been using the stack but upon 
>>> return and updating to 6.7.9 there is now a periodic flash
>>> when I drag to resize the stack as the bar chart recreate itself. It is not 
>>> happening at every resize but intermittently.
>>> 
>>> I don’t believe it has done this before and was wondering if in any of the 
>>> updates recently the resizeStack message
>>> has been changed to affect it’s performance.
>>> 
>>> Has anyone else noticed something similar?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Thanks
>>> 
>>> Terry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: Possible enhancement

[Peter Haworth]

I like that better.  It's more inline with LC's English-like structure.  It
also removes a potential problem with the break number if you add or remove
a control structure. Is there already an enhancement request for it?

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 1:21 PM Mark Wieder  wrote:

> On 02/27/2016 12:53 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:
>
> > Worth an enhancement request?
>
> What I'd rather see, and I think Robert Calliau has suggested this
> before, is the ability to have named loops. Then you could exit from a
> loop by specifying its name.
>
>   repeat . as outerLoop
>   repeat. as loopyLoop
>  repeat. as innerLoop
> if  then exit loopyLoop
>  end repeat -- end of innerLoop
>   end repeat -- end of loopyLoop
>   -- after the 'exit loopyLoop' the script continues here
>   end repeat -- end of outerLoop
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Tore Nilsen]

> 27. feb. 2016 kl. 21.51 skrev Richard Gaskin :
> 
> What could happen if we change "LiveCode" there to "we”?
> 
> The company has many deep technical obligations to complete, and education is 
> an area that really needs the insights of education specialists to guide it.
> 
> And since we're talking about things that would be scripted, who better to do 
> that than educators who script?
> 
> How shall we proceed with identifying the tools and other resources we need 
> to fulfill the vision you've outlined here?
> 
> We set up a section of the forums for educational outreach:
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=107 
> 
> 
> I would encourage you to consider posting your thoughts there, and let's see 
> if we can put together a team and make it happen.


I do agree that this is a kind of task where we, as educators and users of 
LiveCode should do the actual work. However, I think it is vitally important 
that the outcome of such a process has an active backing from the company, and 
this was my reason for using the phrase I did. I fully accept the challenges 
and obligations that LiveCode as a company has to meet, and I also see much of 
this and the effort that has been done in the last couple of years as key to 
any success in the education sector.

I will post my thoughts in the forums, and I will also encourage others who 
work in education to take part in discussions about what we can do to help put 
LiveCode in the hands of more teachers and students. I will also try to come up 
with suggestions for tools and resources I personally will find useful, and 
hope others will as well. It may be helpful to share different national and 
local curriculums, in order to identify useful resources and common approaches 
to different parts of said curriculums.

One thing I really would hope LiveCode will do, is to find room for this as a 
part of the program for the conference in Edinburgh in August. I have already 
registered and will attend. If there is anything I can do to help facilitate 
this, I am more than happy to do so. 

Regards
Tore N
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Re: Possible enhancement

[Mark Wieder]

On 02/27/2016 12:53 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:


Worth an enhancement request?


What I'd rather see, and I think Robert Calliau has suggested this 
before, is the ability to have named loops. Then you could exit from a 
loop by specifying its name.


 repeat . as outerLoop
 repeat. as loopyLoop
repeat. as innerLoop
   if  then exit loopyLoop
end repeat -- end of innerLoop
 end repeat -- end of loopyLoop
 -- after the 'exit loopyLoop' the script continues here
 end repeat -- end of outerLoop

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Resizing of a Stack

[Terence Heaford]

Thanks for the reply but I am already using El Capitan.

Perhaps I should reinstall older versions of LC until I find the one that 
doesn’t cause the problem.


All the best


Terry


> On 27 Feb 2016, at 16:39, Roger Guay  wrote:
> 
> Terry,
> 
> I had similar experience with all versions of LC in OS X Yosemite. It was 
> solved by upgrading to El Capitan. 
> 
> Roger
> 
> 
>> On Feb 27, 2016, at 8:53 AM, Terence Heaford  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I have been using some self made Bar Charts in a stack.
>> 
>> The bar charts consist of many objects created and placed in a group.
>> 
>> When the stack is resized the group is resized accordingly and the bar chart 
>> created again.
>> 
>> Up until the last week or so I have not been using the stack but upon return 
>> and updating to 6.7.9 there is now a periodic flash
>> when I drag to resize the stack as the bar chart recreate itself. It is not 
>> happening at every resize but intermittently.
>> 
>> I don’t believe it has done this before and was wondering if in any of the 
>> updates recently the resizeStack message
>> has been changed to affect it’s performance.
>> 
>> Has anyone else noticed something similar?
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Terry
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Possible enhancement

[Peter Haworth]

Following on from my post about the ability to enclose strings in single
quotes, I came across another php feature which I think would be useful in
LC.

The php break statement has a numeric argument that defines how many
control structures to break out off  I sometimes find myself in 3 or 4
nested repeat statements and need to get out of the whole structure if a
particular condition is met in one of the inner structures. With the php
break format, I could:

repeat .
   repeat.
  repeat.
 if  then break 3
  end repeat
   end repeat
end repeat

or:

repeat.
   switch .
  case...
 ...
 break
  case...
 ...
 break
  default
 ...
 break 2
   end switch
end repeat

The default would be 1 so no existing code would be affected.

Worth an enhancement request?
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LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Richard Gaskin]

Tore -

Thank you for that valuable contribution to this discussion.  I think 
you nailed it perfectly here:


   In my opinion LiveCode should try to put together a package of
   resources that can help teachers to use LiveCode in accordance
   with the competence aims of their respective curriculums.

What could happen if we change "LiveCode" there to "we"?

The company has many deep technical obligations to complete, and 
education is an area that really needs the insights of education 
specialists to guide it.


And since we're talking about things that would be scripted, who better 
to do that than educators who script?


How shall we proceed with identifying the tools and other resources we 
need to fulfill the vision you've outlined here?


We set up a section of the forums for educational outreach:
http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=107

I would encourage you to consider posting your thoughts there, and let's 
see if we can put together a team and make it happen.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org


Tore Nilsen wrote:


27. feb. 2016 kl. 03.35 skrev ambassador at fourthworld.com:


Another good way to get a user base is to be available in schools.
This is hard work, as network administrators, school boards, and
politicians are often against all change. RunRev put a little
effort into this a long time ago and I don't think they currently
do anything in this regard.


Agreed, it is hard.

What specifically do you think LiveCode Ltd should be doing for greater EDU 
outreach?

And what do you think the community of educators using LC might be able to do 
to also further those goals?


Apologies for the length of this, but the questions raised by Richard are 
something I have been thinking about for quite some time.

As a teacher I use LiveCode for two different purposes:

a) As a tool to make educational software “on the fly”. I find LiveCode to be 
an invaluable resource, if and when I encounter a situation where I can see 
that my students will benefit from using digital learning material. I can 
easily make an application that will either help my students in the process of 
understanding a particular topic, practice skills or solve problems. Since I am 
making my own pedagogical software, I can be quite certain that it will fulfil 
the needs of my students, and myself, at any given time. This is in my opinion 
a great time saver, as I do not have to spend time looking for a solution for 
my particular problem(s), only to discover, half way through the process, that 
the chosen application does not have the content or the methods I am looking 
for.

I think a lot of teachers would benefit from being able to make their own 
software. This is one area where I think LiveCode as a company should focus 
their effort and where educators using LiveCode can contribute. Most teachers 
would be happy to use the community edition of LiveCode, so in order to make 
some money out of this, LiveCode should put together a course package, that 
could be sold at a reasonable price, either to individual teachers, to single 
schools or to groups of schools.

Educators using LiveCode could help put together such a course. The content of 
the course should be delivered as media rich content with video lessons, text 
material and sample stacks to show a variety of possible solutions. Educators 
familiar with LiveCode could also be listed as “certified” instructors. If this 
is done right, LiveCode should then be able to offer this course both with or 
without instructors.Schools and teachers will have the opportunity to decide 
whether to do this on a personal basis or as a part of the schools effort to 
enhance the skills of its teachers.

b) I also use LiveCode as the preferred tool to teach programming to our last 
year students in an upper secondary school in Norway. It is not necessary for 
the students to have any prior knowledge or experience in programming or 
coding, and only a handful of them do have such knowledge. I have found 
LiveCode to be a very good tool in this course. The main reason being that my 
students can concentrate on learning and understanding the principles behind 
programming, as they already do understand most of the basic syntax. I have 
found that LiveCode easily adapts to our national curriculum, and in some parts 
actually makes it easier for my students to perform at the highest level of 
competence, as it is described in the competence aims in the curriculum.

In my opinion LiveCode should try to put together a package of resources that 
can help teachers to use LiveCode in accordance with the competence aims of 
their respective curriculums. The resources should ideally be localised and 
presented in native language wherever possible. The content of these resources 
should be linked to the different competence aims of the curriculums, with a 
clear explanation of how different techniques demonstrates important principles 
in programming.

Re: about XML...

[Mark Wieder]

On 02/26/2016 08:51 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

On 02/26/2016 06:07 PM, Colin Holgate wrote:

Prompted by Bill’s KML question I took a new look at the XML entries
in the dictionary. It seems not to have changed lately. I’ve
petitioned for E4X for years now, should I redescribed the advantages
of it?


LOL



On second thought, I realize that you might actually have been serious 
about that... in which case


https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Archive/Web/E4X
http://blog.vjeux.com/2013/javascript/jsx-e4x-the-good-parts.html

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Earthednet-wp]

Another item:
I find https://www.pinterest.com to be a great resource to see what educators, 
especially in k-12 are doing. Lots of great ideas.
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 9:05 AM, Earthednet-wp  wrote:
> 
> Tore,
> Your idea has a lot of merit. In the early Apple days, HyperCard was very 
> popular with educators. It was simple and revolutionary as a programming 
> environment, and free with the computer. Livecode has the capability for this 
> now, especially with the widgets and even more with Monte's wonderful 
> additions.
> 
> I too see warning signs in the regular modifications of the payment options 
> by the mothership. We are all truly screwed if they would go under.
> 
> 

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Earthednet-wp]

Tore,
Your idea has a lot of merit. In the early Apple days, HyperCard was very 
popular with educators. It was simple and revolutionary as a programming 
environment, and free with the computer. Livecode has the capability for this 
now, especially with the widgets and even more with Monte's wonderful additions.

I too see warning signs in the regular modifications of the payment options by 
the mothership. We are all truly screwed if they would go under.

The landscape in education is quite different now, of course. I am a retired 
educator and used Director to deliver assignments where students could access 
real Earth data, write papers, review their peers' papers, see their grades, 
etc. I am currently rewriting much of that material in Livecode. My interest is 
in general education and critical thinking, rather than teaching programming. 
But the mothership could get a lot of publicity by creating a repository of 
educational apps built in livecode, indexed by subject, grade level, and (for 
the US) the common core standards. The ability to deliver these apps over a 
range of devices, including mobile and Raspberry Pi would be a huge incentive.

I can see a use for a "framework" for delivering educational apps. For example, 
is it really necessary to write a new login/password/password recovery code by 
each teacher who wants to create an assignment as part of a course? I have just 
finished a beta version of such a framework and it took me a substantial amount 
of time. Another looming issue for me is integration with Learning Management 
systems, like Moodle, which is widely used and open source. There is SCORM, 
LTI, and now "Common Cartridge". When I read the docs on these systems, my 
eyeballs roll back in my head and I know I will be taking on a huge trek into 
IT-land. Sample stacks that implemented these interfaces would be invaluable to 
higher Ed teachers, and me in particular.

What would be extremely useful to me (which is what I'm creating) would be a 
configurable login system that can respond to "anybody", "a student in a 
class", or a "teacher who registers a class that students can sign up for". 
Details like forgotten passwords and/or class registration codes need to be 
dealt with. A feature I haven't come to grips with is auto-updating of 
software, and I will need to query Richard G to sort this out. All of these 
features have been vital when I was teaching an oceanography class to 300 
students.

If there was an effort like this, I think it must be led by, or at least 
strongly managed, by those with actual experience in education, who will test 
their materials in actual learning situations. The entire effort could be a big 
undertaking.

Some ideas, off the top of my head: LC could offer some services to a volunteer 
team who would visualize and develop this with a goal of it eventually being 
incorporated into the mothership's product offering. One of my concerns is what 
will happen to my own work in the future. Life can be too short. Contributing 
to a larger effort would be satisfying. I would see it as having some of the 
ideas or features of the Khan Academy. There could be lessons on specific 
topics (programming in LC, or physics, for example) that teachers could create, 
or download, or apps that stand alone. Educator/developers could access various 
frameworks to help them get started. Perhaps there could be some way of 
rewarding developers of apps that are used widely. The mothership would provide 
a server resource to host the effort and a reasonable sized group of 
developer/educators could be formed to formulate and visualize the project.

That's it for now. Others may chime in. Perhaps there is some part of this 
vision that is shared by others. 

Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 3:38 AM, Tore Nilsen  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> 27. feb. 2016 kl. 03.35 skrev ambassa...@fourthworld.com:
>>> 
>>> Another good way to get a user base is to be available in schools.
>>> This is hard work, as network administrators, school boards, and
>>> politicians are often against all change. RunRev put a little
>>> effort into this a long time ago and I don't think they currently
>>> do anything in this regard.
>> 
>> Agreed, it is hard.
>> 
>> What specifically do you think LiveCode Ltd should be doing for greater EDU 
>> outreach?
>> 
>> And what do you think the community of educators using LC might be able to 
>> do to also further those goals?
> 
> Apologies for the length of this, but the questions raised by Richard are 
> something I have been thinking about for quite some time.
> 
> As a teacher I use LiveCode for two different purposes: 
> 
> a) As a tool to make educational software “on the fly”. I find LiveCode to be 
> an invaluable resource, if and when I encounter a situation where I can see 
> that my students will benefit from using digital learning material. I can 
> easily make an application that will 

Re: Resizing of a Stack

[Roger Guay]

Terry,

I had similar experience with all versions of LC in OS X Yosemite. It was 
solved by upgrading to El Capitan. 

Roger


> On Feb 27, 2016, at 8:53 AM, Terence Heaford  wrote:
> 
> 
> I have been using some self made Bar Charts in a stack.
> 
> The bar charts consist of many objects created and placed in a group.
> 
> When the stack is resized the group is resized accordingly and the bar chart 
> created again.
> 
> Up until the last week or so I have not been using the stack but upon return 
> and updating to 6.7.9 there is now a periodic flash
> when I drag to resize the stack as the bar chart recreate itself. It is not 
> happening at every resize but intermittently.
> 
> I don’t believe it has done this before and was wondering if in any of the 
> updates recently the resizeStack message
> has been changed to affect it’s performance.
> 
> Has anyone else noticed something similar?
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Terry
> 
> 
> 
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Roger Guay]

I’d like to chime in here:

I love LiveCode and the folks who use, develop, produce and maintain it. I want 
them all to flourish.

I am strictly a hobbyist developer, but did have an occasion where I donated 
work to the SETI Institute (a non-profit). This was a couple of years ago when 
I could afford the lower license cost.

I understand the need for and support free community as well as pay-for 
commercial licenses. I, of course, in my situation, opt for the free.

I am willing to pay as much as $200/Yr for some kind of “hobbyist" license.

I understand that I could just donate $ to LiveCode, but I don’t think a few 
donations from the likes of me is a viable long-term solution for the company.

BTW, I have a thing about renting/subscription fees . . . I hate them!

Bottom line: I cannot afford more than $200/Yr to maintain my hobby, and sure 
as heck will not afford the coming higher, ever increasing, commercial license, 
if and when I ever encounter a need for it. I think there is an opportunity for 
LiveCode to generate a new revenue stream by offering an affordable “hobbyist” 
license . . . what ever that might be.

But then, that’s just me.


Cheers,

Roger


> On Feb 26, 2016, at 4:53 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> Is it people want to give the company money but don't want to do it via 
> donations as thanks for the availability of Community?

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Resizing of a Stack

[Terence Heaford]

I have been using some self made Bar Charts in a stack.

The bar charts consist of many objects created and placed in a group.

When the stack is resized the group is resized accordingly and the bar chart 
created again.

Up until the last week or so I have not been using the stack but upon return 
and updating to 6.7.9 there is now a periodic flash
when I drag to resize the stack as the bar chart recreate itself. It is not 
happening at every resize but intermittently.

I don’t believe it has done this before and was wondering if in any of the 
updates recently the resizeStack message
has been changed to affect it’s performance.

Has anyone else noticed something similar?


Thanks

Terry



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Re: updating progress to user during long handler

[jameshale]

Thanks for the inelegant solution Phil.
Although given I didn't find any to unlock (despite the unlock screen
getting things to work) I trust I do not need it.
Thanks Kay for the interpretation of the dictionary entry.
Makes perfect sense.
Opportunity for an edit to the entry I guess.

We can probably put this thread to bed now.
Thank you all for your help



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Re: KML anyone? Just checking

[David Bovill]

I have some KML code - ping me off list and I'll send it, or stick it up on
github.

On 27 February 2016 at 02:55, Colin Holgate  wrote:

> What is your end goal? Do you know you can use a browser control and set
> its URL to http://maps.google.com/maps?q=the address to the kml file
>
>
> > On Feb 26, 2016, at 8:45 PM, William Prothero 
> wrote:
> >
> > Folks:
> > Before I launch into a coding effort, I am curious if anybody has done
> any work getting kml into a livecode array, and is willing to share. I’m
> going to decode and plot world country outlines for an app I’m working on.
> I haven’t started yet, but I will probably use pieces, or all of the xml
> parser that livecode offers.
> >
> > Best,
> > Bill
> >
> > William Prothero, Ph.D.
> > University of California, Santa Barbara, Emeritus
> > proth...@earthednet.org
> >
>
>
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Re: SSH-External for Live Code

[Trevor DeVore]

On Friday, February 26, 2016, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami 
wrote:

> @ Trevor Devore & Glen Bojsza
>
> is this working , today, as of LC 8 +
>
> https://github.com/trevordevore/SSH-External-for-LiveCode
>

Hi,

I don't know. I host the code for Glen but I don't use it.

-- 
Trevor DeVore
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Tore Nilsen]

> 27. feb. 2016 kl. 03.35 skrev ambassa...@fourthworld.com:
> 
>> Another good way to get a user base is to be available in schools.
>> This is hard work, as network administrators, school boards, and
>> politicians are often against all change. RunRev put a little
>> effort into this a long time ago and I don't think they currently
>> do anything in this regard.
> 
> Agreed, it is hard.
> 
> What specifically do you think LiveCode Ltd should be doing for greater EDU 
> outreach?
> 
> And what do you think the community of educators using LC might be able to do 
> to also further those goals?

Apologies for the length of this, but the questions raised by Richard are 
something I have been thinking about for quite some time.

As a teacher I use LiveCode for two different purposes: 

a) As a tool to make educational software “on the fly”. I find LiveCode to be 
an invaluable resource, if and when I encounter a situation where I can see 
that my students will benefit from using digital learning material. I can 
easily make an application that will either help my students in the process of 
understanding a particular topic, practice skills or solve problems. Since I am 
making my own pedagogical software, I can be quite certain that it will fulfil 
the needs of my students, and myself, at any given time. This is in my opinion 
a great time saver, as I do not have to spend time looking for a solution for 
my particular problem(s), only to discover, half way through the process, that 
the chosen application does not have the content or the methods I am looking 
for.

I think a lot of teachers would benefit from being able to make their own 
software. This is one area where I think LiveCode as a company should focus 
their effort and where educators using LiveCode can contribute. Most teachers 
would be happy to use the community edition of LiveCode, so in order to make 
some money out of this, LiveCode should put together a course package, that 
could be sold at a reasonable price, either to individual teachers, to single 
schools or to groups of schools.

Educators using LiveCode could help put together such a course. The content of 
the course should be delivered as media rich content with video lessons, text 
material and sample stacks to show a variety of possible solutions. Educators 
familiar with LiveCode could also be listed as “certified” instructors. If this 
is done right, LiveCode should then be able to offer this course both with or 
without instructors.Schools and teachers will have the opportunity to decide 
whether to do this on a personal basis or as a part of the schools effort to 
enhance the skills of its teachers.   

b) I also use LiveCode as the preferred tool to teach programming to our last 
year students in an upper secondary school in Norway. It is not necessary for 
the students to have any prior knowledge or experience in programming or 
coding, and only a handful of them do have such knowledge. I have found 
LiveCode to be a very good tool in this course. The main reason being that my 
students can concentrate on learning and understanding the principles behind 
programming, as they already do understand most of the basic syntax. I have 
found that LiveCode easily adapts to our national curriculum, and in some parts 
actually makes it easier for my students to perform at the highest level of 
competence, as it is described in the competence aims in the curriculum.

In my opinion LiveCode should try to put together a package of resources that 
can help teachers to use LiveCode in accordance with the competence aims of 
their respective curriculums. The resources should ideally be localised and 
presented in native language wherever possible. The content of these resources 
should be linked to the different competence aims of the curriculums, with a 
clear explanation of how different techniques demonstrates important principles 
in programming.

This is also on area where educators can help out, choosing the appropriate 
resources based on their personal knowledge off their curriculums and 
experiences as teachers. It should be possible to come up with suggested year 
plans to help teachers to use LiveCode as their preferred tool for teaching 
programming. Such plans could serve as an interactive “menu” by which the 
students could access the different resources. These resources could be 
webpages, videos, downloadable stacks, presentations and text files. 

LiveCode could sell these packages together with an Indy licence at reduced 
price for teachers, a hosting solution for schools and offer a community for 
both students and teachers alike, thereby making it possible for a wider 
network of students and teachers to collaborate. As with the course for helping 
teachers to make their own software, educators familiar with LiveCode could 
become “certified” instructors, and LiveCode could offer introduction courses 
in using LiveCode as a tool for teaching programming.

Another area 

Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Terence Heaford]

> On 27 Feb 2016, at 11:07, Dirk prive  wrote:
> 
> So for new customers in Jan 2017 the price will be over 3 times what it was
> for new customers in march 2015. I would say that is a price that goes up
> way faster than one would expect. The company knows the numbers though and
> they need to make sure that they can survive or we would no longer have a
> product.

I could well be incorrect here but it seems LiveCode are pursuing short term 
capital
by offering discounts to lock-in against future price rises.

Clearly a lock-in against future price rises only works for the purchaser if 
the product exists for as
long as the lock-in.

At which point LiveCode will have to offer another lock-in because they have 
already had the cash up front now.

Or

They come up with another money raising scheme in the meantime?

This scenario clearly does not help those who are lower down the food chain and 
aspire to own a licence.

They are really stuck with the Open Source Product in the face of continuing 
rising prices that are way beyond…

Do those that pay these prices believe that they have achieved added value 
since the cost of a licence at KickStarter or perhaps
even earlier.

In most purchases, the product is there, completed and ready to be purchased. 
It appears with this rental method you, not the company,
are paying/gambling for something in the future that has not yet been developed.


All the best



Terry



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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Dirk prive]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Terence Heaford 
wrote:

> I would like a license with LiveCode but am not prepared to stump up
> $499/year which I believe,  is extortionate (forgive the word, but it is my
> word).
> I may be wrong but has it just gone up to $.
>


> I am sure there are those who just buy a $499 licence and really don’t
> make enough money to justify it and at some point those people will fall by
> the wayside.
> What are people willing to pay for LiveCode? $1000, $1500, $2000, $2500…..
> What has been the progression of prices in the last 5 years for an Indy
> Licence?
>

I just checked.

In March 2015 I tried to renew my commercial license, but could not because
it was replaced by the Indy license.
At that point I had to pay 299$/yr for my Indy License.

Then just 4 months later on the 29th of June I received a mail announcing
the rise in price to 499$ from July 24th.
You could avoid it by purchasing the Indy License at the special price of
499$ for 2 years of subscription and that would give you the right to buy
future Indy licenses at the price of 299$ in subsequent years. That was
presented as a "one time opportunity to protect you against this and any
future price rises as a thank you for your loyalty".

Now on Feb 18th we received the announcement of the mergEXT acquisition,
and the price increase to 999$.
The increase is phased mid-march 2016 from 499$ to 599$ and then to 999$ by
Jan 2017.

The message seems clear:

   - If you are current, stay current (that would be me).
   - If you don't subscribe yet, subscribe now to get the current price and
   keep the current price in the future (that would be 499$/yr)


So for new customers in Jan 2017 the price will be over 3 times what it was
for new customers in march 2015. I would say that is a price that goes up
way faster than one would expect. The company knows the numbers though and
they need to make sure that they can survive or we would no longer have a
product.

Kind regards,
Dirk Cleenwerck
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Dirk prive]

Hi again,

I just re-read everything I received so far and have come to the conclusion
that some things could have been communicated better by the company.

*From their mail on feb 18th.*
29 More Reasons to Celebrate 8
We are committed to delivering a quality core product that offers great
value to our paying license holders. LiveCode 8 is the future for our
platform with the new widget architecture, a brand new scripting language
and HTML5 deployment. By January 2017 the price of LiveCode Indy will rise
to $999, incrementally over the course of the next year.  Read about
LiveCode 8 and your opportunity to subscribe at today's price and lock in
tomorrows increased value *here >*


*then the mail on feb 24th.*
[Release] LiveCode 8 dp 15 Now Available


The subscription price will rise from $499 to $599 in March and to $999 by
January 2017, if you subscribe now you will keep your price at $499

 and take advantage of all the future enhancements to come.
We are committed to delivering a high quality core product providing a top
coding experience for our open source users and great value to our paying
license holders.LiveCode 8 is the future, with the new widget architecture,
a brand new scripting language and HTML5 deployment. To reflect the added
value of LiveCode 8, by January 2017 the price of LiveCode Indy will rise
to $999, incrementally over the course of the next year. Read about LiveCode
 8 and your opportunity to subscribe at today’s price, locking in
tomorrow's increased value, here.


To me it looked like I needed to subscribe now (as in take action) for 499$
to keep my price.
I guess I didn't understand all the English involved here correctly.
(sorry, English is only my third language).
I didn't understand that this didn't mean me, since I already have a
subscription.
Also the last line of the block at the bottom was critical: "Read about
LiveCode 8 and your opportunity to subscribe at today's price, locking in
tomorrow's increased value, *here*"

When I actually clicked that link and go to the bottom of the page under
FAQ:
*I have an existing LiveCode Indy subscription at a different price – will
that price be maintained? *Yes, as long as you keep your subscription
current you can continue to renew at the price you originally paid for it.
If your subscription lapses and you are ready to repurchase, you will need
to pay whatever price is current on our website to renew.

Therefore since I have an existing subscription, I just need to make sure I
keep it current and I should be fine.

So for people in the same boat as me, keep your license current and enjoy
using LiveCode at your current price.

Sorry for the noise.
Dirk Cleenwerck

PS: I still think there should be something in between community edition
and Indy for the hobby programmers, but that is a decision the company
should make. I think there is a market there, but it's up to them to decide
if they want to server that market or not. If my discussion did anything,
it was show that there are other hobby programmers out there that feel the
same way.


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Curry Kenworthy  wrote:

>
> Then again there's no free lunch, as the rising paid prices demonstrate.
> That's a bit of software socialism in action, and the resulting new pricing
> widens the gap for the paid features. Now we're not just talking about
> hobbyists. The overall value of the LiveCode package also increases with
> new inclusions, no argument there, but doubling the fee for mandatory
> inclusions won't be a trivial change for some Indy coders.
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: updating progress to user during long handler

[Kay C Lan]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 2:48 PM, jameshale  wrote:
>
> As an aside when reading the dictionary on lockscreen it states that its
> setting has no effect in the IDE with script debug enabled.
> I have script debug mode enabled.
> I am also doing all this testing in the IDE.
> If lockscreen has no effect in the IDE under these circumstances then why
> does setting the lockscreen to false allow things to work?
>
> Curious, no?
>
I think what that means to say is that you are not in Debug Mode until
you actually hit a breakpoint and you step through your code, stepping
onto lock screen will have no effect. It's pretty easy to test:

Run once then comment out the breakpoint and run again.

New stack, 1 button, 1 field. In the btn:

on mouseUp
   put empty into x
   repeat with x = 1 to 500
  put x into fld 1
   end repeat

   put empty into fld 1
   wait 1 sec
   --breakpoint
   lock screen
   repeat with x = 1 to 5000 --yes 5000*
  put x into fld 1
   end repeat
end mouseUp

* Just to demonstrate how unlocking the screen slows things down... A LOT.

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Terence Heaford]

Is the existing method working?

There always appears to be shifting sand, modifying this method for selling to 
renting, a different licence for this a different license for that, extensions 
for extra cash.

All the shifting sands suggests to me that LiveCode are not making enough.

What is enough?

Is it a reasonable salary, is it making the next corporate monolith, I don’t 
know LiveCode’s goal.

It also appears that from time to time the changing strategy seems to upset 
long standing users.

How many are upset we will never know.

I wonder what the churn rate is for LiveCode?

All I can really comment on is me and my concerns. I suppose I am what could be 
called a Hobbyist.

I arrived at LiveCodes door simply because SuperCard stopped updating.

I had a paid license with SuperCard, I think it may have been $129 when I 
started and had updated for a reduced fee but not a renting licence.

I would like a license with LiveCode but am not prepared to stump up $499/year 
which I believe,  is extortionate (forgive the word, but it is my word).
I may be wrong but has it just gone up to $.
Is this a case of more shifting sand in LiveCode’s shifting financial desert?

It may be reasonable for some/companies who make a good living from it but 
otherwise, no.

Why would I like to buy a licence rather than renting?

Simply to obtain the add-ons that I believe will be extra cost when the LC8 
widget/extension system is up and running and probably not available in the 
Open Source basic version (note I did not use lite).

Anyway it is of no real consequence because I am sat on the Open Source 
sidelines waiting to see how this Game plays out between LiveCode’s Paying 
Customers and LiveCode.

I am sure there are those who just buy a $499 licence and really don’t make 
enough money to justify it and at some point those people will fall by the 
wayside.

What are people willing to pay for LiveCode? $1000, $1500, $2000, $2500…..

What has been the progression of prices in the last 5 years for an Indy Licence?



All the best

Terry


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Re: updating progress to user during long handler

[Phil Davis]

Here is an inelegant but effective way to handle an unknown number of 
nested lockScreens:


put 0 into x
repeat until the lockScreen is false
unlock screen
add 1 to x
end repeat

-- put your update indicator code here

repeat x times
lock screen
end repeat


Then you don't have to search far and wide for the culprits. And you 
leave the lockScreen environment as you found it.


Best -
Phil Davis



On 2/26/16 10:48 PM, jameshale wrote:

Well I thought I should have a look given these comments.
I went through every GLX script I could find looking for lockscreens - none.
I then went through all my scripts in my main stack, the card scripts of the
opening card as well as all library stacks I am calling.
Every lockscreen was paired (lock/unlock) within the handler it was located.
None of these handlers, BTW, were being called during the opening sequence.

Just to be sure I also added an if lockscreen = true then breakpoint at a
couple of my progress points.

Launching the app it proceeded as wanted, updating the splash screen with
progress reports until the screen displayed.
None of the lockscreen checks fired, indicating to me that there were
actually no lockscreens were in effect during the startup.

So, I do not think there will be a problem as has been suggested.
I also can't explain why setting the lockscreen to false in the Splash stack
makes things work.

As an aside when reading the dictionary on lockscreen it states that its
setting has no effect in the IDE with script debug enabled.
I have script debug mode enabled.
I am also doing all this testing in the IDE.
If lockscreen has no effect in the IDE under these circumstances then why
does setting the lockscreen to false allow things to work?

Curious, no?



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--
Phil Davis


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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Curry Kenworthy]

Howdy Folks,

This is a very interesting thread with the pricing plan changing.

LiveCode's Community Edition will fit the needs of many hobbyists 
perfectly, as others have rightly pointed out. But to be fair, it's 
unrealistic (false dichotomy) to believe that all software must be 
either commercial or open source, or that all hobbyists must produce 
only open source code. The world is not quite so simple!


I've seen many people create freeware in spare time and decide to charge 
money (or not) for some products after gaining a following or after 
having more time. The decision often comes later.


Some hobbyists are too busy with work, education, family, or health to 
launch a business at the moment. It would be silly to say that they have 
no valid interest in keeping future options available for their code if 
they wish. That's their decision, either way.


Even when money is not a goal, plenty of freeware products remain 
closed. That's why we have different names for freeware and open source. 
The web app is a good solution, but being realistic again, it won't fit 
all apps.


So if some hobbyists are worried, I understand completely! I'd say watch 
for helpful sales and lock-ins. I can't predict the future, but LiveCode 
sales have happened many times in the past, and you might even notice 
some patterns if you want to gamble on them. Key word, gamble. Locking 
in now is the safest option if you can afford it.


Worst case, you can wait and hope (and ask) for another eventual change 
in pricing strategy. Explain your situation to LiveCode and see what 
happens. Things have changed before. The company does listen when people 
reach out.


Of course the Community Edition offers a whole heck of a lot to 
hobbyists for the very low price of free, and for many of them, perhaps 
the majority, that's all they will need while tinkering to their heart's 
content or even working on what could become the next killer product!


Then again there's no free lunch, as the rising paid prices demonstrate. 
That's a bit of software socialism in action, and the resulting new 
pricing widens the gap for the paid features. Now we're not just talking 
about hobbyists. The overall value of the LiveCode package also 
increases with new inclusions, no argument there, but doubling the fee 
for mandatory inclusions won't be a trivial change for some Indy coders.


I often talk to startups and smaller established companies with pretty 
tight budgets, and it's an easy conclusion that some folks would better 
afford an option like the current Indy price with fewer new inclusions. 
There's no doubt that some potential customers will be lost under the 
new pricing, but that's up to LiveCode to weigh the pros and cons, and 
it'll be interesting to see how this works out.


BTW, as my sudden appearance here may cause ripples in the pond, I'll 
pre-answer: I'm working on SpreadLib at the moment; it and WordLib have 
updates coming up soon, involving SpreadOut and WordOut features among 
other things. The FieldTrip update will be after them, and who knows, I 
may have something else up my sleeve for this year besides those. :)


My wonderful clients keep me pretty busy, so if you don't see me talking 
here on the list for a little while, you'll know that I'm layin' down 
some code in serious quantities. But just like Arnold, "I'll be back" 
here pretty soon! I hope everyone is having an excellent year so far.


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy
--
WordLib: Import MS Word and OpenOffice documents
http://curryk.com/wordlib.html

Need custom software development or LiveCode help?
http://curryk.com/consulting/



Matt Maier:
> you could host the software as a web app

hh:
>> you would like to share the code with some people only, not with all.
>> And at the same time you are willing to share your product with all,
>> for free.

Matt Maier:
>>> But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you distribute,
>>> why would you need to close the source?


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