Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 4:09 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Meh. Don't like using Chess as a measurement of AI competence. Chess is in
> AI's wheelhouse. Once a computer can store all the possible permutations of
> chess,
>

I agree on the sentiment, but a small point: the state-space of Chess is
about 10^44 . No computer
has, or foreseeably will, store all the possible permutations. It's the
nature of machine learning that it's pretty much impossible for us to
understand what something like AlphaZero
 *does* store, but it's not
anything like "in this position, play this move". Further, it appears
AlphaZero used 16GB of memory. It looks like Stockfish 10 (which I think is
considered stronger than AlphaZero) can use more, but will operate in 16GB
of memory as well.

gc
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XML external: differences between Mac and Linux?

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Anyone here aware of any significant differences with the XML external 
implementation between Mac and Linux?


I have some XML files about 250 MBs in size that parse well enough on my 
M1 Mac, but crash on Linux. I expected that Linux box to be slower given 
the CPU age, but not a crash. Both machines have same amount of RAM.


At the moment I'm fine with this one-off task running on my M1, but if 
there are known limits with the Linux version of that external it may 
save me some setup time in the future.


Thanks in advance -

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems

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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Phil Davis via use-livecode]

+1
Spot-on Bob!


On 1/23/23 4:24 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

The real problem with information is not the information itself, but that we pretty much all 
process information in the context of our chosen world view. Because of this, freedom of speech and 
open discourse MUST be preserved, because my life's experience is that if the "good guys" 
and the "bad guys" want to control what information is available, the bad guys*ALWAYS*  
win. They are unhampered by such inconveniences such as truth and morality.

Bob S


--
Phil Davis
(503) 307-4363


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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Who gets to decide what the dis is in dis-information though? I think the 
greatest threat to knowledge is the illusion that information can be filtered 
to exclude the "dis" in favor of the information. Perhaps my faith in the human 
psyche is over ambitious, but it seems to me that any person really wanting to 
know what is true, and not just what confirms their own predisposition or bias, 
when given access to all the information available, can determine pretty 
quickly what is true, or false, or misleading.

The real problem with information is not the information itself, but that we 
pretty much all process information in the context of our chosen world view. 
Because of this, freedom of speech and open discourse MUST be preserved, 
because my life's experience is that if the "good guys" and the "bad guys" want 
to control what information is available, the bad guys *ALWAYS* win. They are 
unhampered by such inconveniences such as truth and morality.

Bob S


On Jan 21, 2023, at 14:47 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 10:50 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:


Human-generated disinformation is already a significant destabilizing
force. When we trust machine-generated content we run that same risk at
light speed.


Absolutely agreed -- If you'd asked me in the 90s what man-made thing would
end us all, I'd have said nanotechnology. In the 2000s I would have added
bio-tech. These days I definitely consider disinformation an equal threat.
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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Meh. Don't like using Chess as a measurement of AI competence. Chess is in AI's 
wheelhouse. Once a computer can store all the possible permutations of chess, 
it's advantage for AI is that it can reject what worked historically and what 
didn't, paring down the moves for every situation it can encounter to the ones 
that work. The initial paring down probably happens fairly quickly too. Most 
possible opening moves in chess are bad ones.

The disadvantage humans have in a scenario like Chess is that they cannot hold 
all the permutations and possible progressions of a game in their conscience 
mind. Computers don't have a conscience mind, they have direct access to all 
the data they have ever been exposed to.

What I get from your example is that the people writing those articles really 
misunderstood the problem.

Bob S


On Jan 21, 2023, at 10:39 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:

Are we?  As late as my teens I was still reading science mags saying "Well, AI 
is going to be a big deal, but no machine will ever beat a human at something 
as complex as chess."

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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Franz Nahrada via use-livecode]

Kevin Miller schrieb am Montag, 23. Jänner 2023 um 22:56 :

> I don't think we need to worry (too much!) about the exit of scripting
>languages. It's a useful medium for a human to understand and edit in
>until such time as we are truly defunct. If and when that happens I doubt
>there will be any sort of jobs in any industry.

I am not very active with my Indy license and also with this mailing list,
but I follow this particular  debate closely and In have to say it really
raised my enthusiasm to start scripting again.
Actually it was a brilliant idea to kick this theme off and let it develop
so creatively. Thanks Kevin and Heather !
It seems like a natural match to me (the scripter and AI) that will
reverse the digital illiteracy of so many - who think they are digitally
literate because they can use prefab apps.
But we need to start building our own worlds again.

Franz Nahrada
ex - HyperCard support Austria
promoting Global Villages - where embeddedness in nature and landscape
meets connectedness to advanced knowledge

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Re: Training the AI to write better LiveCode

[Kevin Miller via use-livecode]

Ethics are very important to me as you know. I'm a passionate believer in 
working to increase fairness as we grow and evolve as a species. We're making 
great progress at that at the moment. For example, the number of people living 
in extreme poverty globally has more than halved in the last 20 years. Over 
half of the world's population has a smartphone, giving them access to what 
would once have been a supercomputer, and an online world that just 25 years 
ago the majority could not access.

I think it takes time after something new emerges before we sort out the 
societal implications fully. Such implications are rarely well understood at 
the start. I don't think the questions these lawsuits raise have easy answers. 
It certainly does not seem clear cut to me on reading them what is even right 
or in the ultimate best interests of artists, creators or our species. I would 
need to dig into this for a lot longer to truly form an opinion.

I don't underestimate the potential for technology to continue at breath-taking 
rate and solve the problem of writing in assembler. I get the exponential 
growth of technology and the improvements of algorithms that lead to further 
growths - in fact I'm quite excited about it. I'm just not sure that this is a 
problem that really needs solved next. We already have a technology that takes 
human readable code and creates machine instructions, i.e. compliers. Until 
technology completely eliminates humans in the making of software (which may of 
course happen one day) I don't think we need to worry (too much!) about the 
exit of scripting languages. It's a useful medium for a human to understand and 
edit in until such time as we are truly defunct. If and when that happens I 
doubt there will be any sort of jobs in any industry.

We also have to be careful we don't try to cut off our nose to spite our face. 
Leaving a language like ours behind in the dust rather than finding ways to 
work with new opportunities like this one is a high price to pay, particularly 
as such a protest would have little or no impact on the course of the evolution 
of such technology. Obviously we need to stand up for our rights as we go 
forward, I am not advocating sticking our collective heads in the sand. This 
could go in a negative direction, particularly depending on who owns it and has 
access to it and we can re-evaluate things if necessary in the future.

As to the first industrial revolution, I think it's easy to forget what it was 
actually like to live a couple of hundred years ago compared to now. I'm with 
Geoff, overall it came out extremely well. That gives one a little cautious 
optimism that the second one might also do so, though as ever the future is not 
guaranteed.

Kind regards, 

Kevin 

Kevin Miller ~ ke...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/ 
LiveCode: Build Amazing Things 



On 21/01/2023, 22:40, "use-livecode on behalf of Geoff Canyon via 
use-livecode" mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com> on behalf of 
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:


Those only interested in LiveCode, click "next" now.

On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 10:40 AM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com > wrote:

>
> After all, the Codex had been trained on billions of
> publicly available source code lines – including code
> in public repositories on GitHub. That included, among
> other things, all of the Apache Foundation's many
> projects' code.
> https://www.theregister.com/2022/11/11/githubs_copilot_opinion/ 
> 
>
>
> Stability Diffusion, Midjourney, and DreamUp were
> trained on copyrighted materials without credit,
> compensation, or consent, according to a new lawsuit.
>
> https://www.pcmag.com/news/artists-sue-ai-art-generators-for-copyright-infringement
>  
> 

My not-a-lawyer understanding is that this lawsuit is almost guaranteed to
fail. Just from a conceptual perspective, human artists have access to the
same copyrighted material (albeit not the ability to ingest *all* of it)
and even the ability to mimic it for their own edification. It's the act of
publishing similar work that is problematic. And it's going to be fun for
the lawyers to sort out who's at fault if I use Stable Diffusion to create
a corporate christmas card that happens to resemble the Coca-Cola polar
bears.

> We're a very long way from attempting to write all apps in assembler
> > using this sort of AI.
>
> Are we? As late as my teens I was still reading science mags saying
> "Well, AI is going to be a big deal, but no machine will ever beat a
> human at something as complex as chess."
>
> Big Blue beat world chess champion Garry Kasparov less than two decades
> later.
>
> So the goalpost moved, with explanations like "Well, chess is ultimately
> a