Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
What to go for? I would agree with Richmond that xfce is the current desktop of choice. My own distro of choice is Debian, but if this is your first shot at Linux I would go with PCLinuxOS, XFCE Edition. I would also agree with Richmond to install on a separate hard drive. Its cheap and its foolproof. Installing PCL in this way will be no harder than installing a big application. The PCL magazine is great, its a really friendly user group. It updates fairly slowly. It has a very nice control panel system where you do everything through GUI, which derives ultimately from Mandriva. If you get serious about Linux you will end up with Debian in the end. But in the meantime, PCL will do the job very well for you. Get it here: http://www.pclinuxos.com/?page_id=10 You will have to install OpenOffoce or LibreOffice yourself, but they make that very easy too, providing a direct link to it. Basically all you have to do is insert your hardware, then boot from the CD, and choose 'install'. Point it to the blank hard drive and have coffee. Debian will still be there when you get around to wanting it. Peter -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/OT-A-couple-of-links-about-Gnome-and-usability-tp4498147p4508078.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/26/2012 08:44 AM, Warren Samples wrote: On 03/25/2012 12:38 PM, Richmond wrote: I have spent some time playing around with PearOS, and can honestly say it sucks; I installed the latest version, Comice OS 4, and gave it only a quick look. While I don't mind if someone likes it, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, especially with hopes that it might an easy transition from OS X. Choosing Comice Classic at login, I did have a working dock with icons which included Finder so finding my home folder was a cinch. The Dock icon set mysteriously changed at some point and I could not find an obvious way to do that deliberately. Beyond that, the control center made me feel mostly like there was little I could do to take control. The software center seems very easy to get, though, and that's a big plus. The UI has with good snap, but in the end, a lot of simple basic stuff is not intuitive for the new user. I think even less than most of the more traditional flavored DEs. I also discovered that my unmodified install is useless with Livecode, which is Pete's interest. There are all kinds of problems with characters in scripts. you can't use /. Quotes are treated literally as in: put something into tAnything; put tAnything returns something with the quotes. If someone can tell me what's the likely cause, I'd be interested to know :D Even more interested in knowing how to remedy it. It was only a cursory look. I've never liked the stock OS X Dock and always ran it without 3D, reflections and animations PearOS uses CairoDock. I use, whatever the distro, Avant Window Navigator; it can be easily configured to present a flat, transparent dock with no annoying resizing of icons, 3D fluff and so on. I find that Avant Window Navigator can closely resemble the Mac OS 10.2 dock - which I much preferred to later versions. Personally I think that the Mac Dock is about the best thing about Mac OS, so have made sure I have had a dock wherever I have worked; even going to far as to have one in my Virtual box running Windows XP. Of course, with XFCE (let's say Xubuntu) one can set the bottom panel to behave in almost the same way; without the overhead of having to install AWN. and set it out of the way in the lower left corner, so this was definitely not a positive feature for me, but that's a matter of taste. That said, this distro has some real drawbacks in my opinion. Pete, this is not the best choice. Sorry to have brought it up. Warren Certainly, with Ubuntu and its spinoffs (currently doing most of my stuff with Xubuntu 12.04 beta 1), Livecode generally behaves itself; although my Dictionary stack does seem to crash the IDE. However this may be due to my warped route to Xubuntu; Ubuntu 12.04 with UNITY, mucked about with Cinnamon, mucked about with MATE, mucked about with Lubuntu, installed XFCE. Until I pull myself together and reinstall a virgin install of Xubuntu (not likely until the April full release) I won't know for certain why this is happening. I have had Livecode doing very nicely with ZevenOS, a sort of kiddified Debian; got cheesed-off with the distro as it kept dumping me in dependency hell; so I dumped it. I have always stuck to Debian derivs, so cannot really say anything about other types of Linux. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Another thing you might like to think about is running a Linux distro on a second hard-disk or partition in a PC running Windows. If at all possible go for the second hard drive option; I have managed to muck a lot of things up trying to go the second partition route. Some Linux distros are very fiddly indeed to install, but Mint Linux and Ubuntu are as easy, if not easier, to install as Windows and Mac. Download an install disk: http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/download http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php burn your ISO image to CD/DVD (that depends on its size) and reboot your machine from that disk, and follow the instructions: http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-newbie-8/how-do-i-install-linux-on-a-second-hard-drive-221331/ http://danleff.net/myarticles/fedorainstall/linuxinstallharddrives4.html - Another option, which is probably the safest bet of all, is to buy a second hand PC (any Pentium 4 will do, with a min. of 512 MB RAM) and install Linux on that. Certainly, in my part of the world HP compaq Pentium 4's with 1-2 GB RAM are as cheap as chips [40 Euros]. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/24/2012 06:53 PM, Pete wrote: So now I'm left with the question of which Linux distro to go for Pete More ideas that might interest you :) Since you are mainly working in OS X and I assume you are happy and comfortable working in that interface, you may be interested in a linux distro that is set up out of the box to look and act much like OS X. You can do this in any distro but this would be a simpler route, and for someone who might not want to spend a lot of time and effort fiddling with a system he's not planning to use every day, a very sensible choice. http://www.unixmen.com/pear-linux-comice-os-4-0-has-been-released-screenshots-tour-video/ http://www.pear-os-linux.fr/ Do-it-yourself ideas: http://beta.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/how-to-make-linux-mint-look-like-os-x-1040983 http://lifehacker.com/5665765/macbuntu-makes-your-linux-desktop-look-like-mac-os-x http://www.internetling.com/2008/03/24/linux-docks-5-mac-os-x-docks-for-ubuntu-and-other-linux-distros/ http://www.howtogeek.com/45817/how-to-make-ubuntu-linux-look-like-mac-os-x/ http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linux-docks.html http://linuxlibrary.org/applications/linux-desktop-docks-panels/ youtube also has lots of videos of people demonstrating their Mac-like Linux desktops. You might enjoy a peek at a few of those. Good luck! Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Thanks Richmond and Warren for the info. I like the idea of using a Linux distro that is somewhat like an OS X interface. Pete On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 8:04 AM, Warren Samples war...@warrensweb.uswrote: On 03/24/2012 06:53 PM, Pete wrote: So now I'm left with the question of which Linux distro to go for Pete More ideas that might interest you :) Since you are mainly working in OS X and I assume you are happy and comfortable working in that interface, you may be interested in a linux distro that is set up out of the box to look and act much like OS X. You can do this in any distro but this would be a simpler route, and for someone who might not want to spend a lot of time and effort fiddling with a system he's not planning to use every day, a very sensible choice. http://www.unixmen.com/pear-**linux-comice-os-4-0-has-been-** released-screenshots-tour-**video/http://www.unixmen.com/pear-linux-comice-os-4-0-has-been-released-screenshots-tour-video/ http://www.pear-os-linux.fr/ Do-it-yourself ideas: http://beta.techradar.com/**news/software/operating-** systems/how-to-make-linux-**mint-look-like-os-x-1040983http://beta.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/how-to-make-linux-mint-look-like-os-x-1040983 http://lifehacker.com/5665765/**macbuntu-makes-your-linux-** desktop-look-like-mac-os-xhttp://lifehacker.com/5665765/macbuntu-makes-your-linux-desktop-look-like-mac-os-x http://www.internetling.com/**2008/03/24/linux-docks-5-mac-** os-x-docks-for-ubuntu-and-**other-linux-distros/http://www.internetling.com/2008/03/24/linux-docks-5-mac-os-x-docks-for-ubuntu-and-other-linux-distros/ http://www.howtogeek.com/**45817/how-to-make-ubuntu-** linux-look-like-mac-os-x/http://www.howtogeek.com/45817/how-to-make-ubuntu-linux-look-like-mac-os-x/ http://www.dedoimedo.com/**computers/linux-docks.htmlhttp://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/linux-docks.html http://linuxlibrary.org/**applications/linux-desktop-**docks-panels/http://linuxlibrary.org/applications/linux-desktop-docks-panels/ youtube also has lots of videos of people demonstrating their Mac-like Linux desktops. You might enjoy a peek at a few of those. Good luck! Warren __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
I am also a big fan of Parallels, especially now they seem to have sorted out access to the Mac's printers. Yesterday I installed Windows 7 on my iMac, running Parallels on top of Lion - this was in addition to XP rather than a replacement, since I need both for testing purposes - and it was astonishingly easy. I was expecting it to be quite agonising including having to contact Microsoft over the internet etc etc but it 'just worked'. In case this seems too glowing, I should say that I'm just a customer of Parallels and have no other axe to grind. Graham On Sat, 24 Mar 2012 18:21:12 -05003, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.com wrote: On 3/24/12 5:48 PM, Pete wrote: I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? I've had very good luck with Parallels. And lots of people are using several other emulators too with good results, and many are free. I run Win XP, Vista, Ubuntu (sort of, I'm way behind on that,) and Mac OS X all from my iMac. I don't see any reason these days to have several computers just to use different operating systems. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
As a Mac-o-philiac I have spent some time playing around with PearOS, and can honestly say it sucks; it being neither one thing nor the other. Also, for Mac types; the initial set up does NOT have desktop icons, and it is a right cough-cough-cough finding one's Home folder and so on. The eye-candy is Mac-like; the functionality is not. And by fudging around with GNOME 3 to produce a supposedly Mac-like interface they have just obscured some of the useful features of GNOME 3. This reminds me of attempts in the past to build Linux distros with interfaces that are clones of Windows XP; similarly silly. When one moves to another operating system there is a learning curve involved, and it is disingenuous to pretend there is not. PearOS is rather like Water-wings or those funny little wheels on the sides of bikes; you will become dependent on them, and never learn to swim/ride a bike properly. --- My vote for ease of use for a new Linux user who is coming from Mac, right now, is Xubuntu: http://xubuntu.org/ or Mint with XFCE: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1818 You are more than welcome to e-mail me directly (i.e. off-list) if you have any further questions. Richmond Mathewson. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/25/2012 12:38 PM, Richmond wrote: As a Mac-o-philiac I have spent some time playing around with PearOS, and can honestly say it sucks; it being neither one thing nor the other. Also, for Mac types; the initial set up does NOT have desktop icons, and it is a right cough-cough-cough finding one's Home folder and so on. The eye-candy is Mac-like; the functionality is not. And by fudging around with GNOME 3 to produce a supposedly Mac-like interface they have just obscured some of the useful features of GNOME 3. This reminds me of attempts in the past to build Linux distros with interfaces that are clones of Windows XP; similarly silly. When one moves to another operating system there is a learning curve involved, and it is disingenuous to pretend there is not. PearOS is rather like Water-wings or those funny little wheels on the sides of bikes; you will become dependent on them, and never learn to swim/ride a bike properly. --- My vote for ease of use for a new Linux user who is coming from Mac, right now, is Xubuntu: http://xubuntu.org/ or Mint with XFCE: http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1818 You are more than welcome to e-mail me directly (i.e. off-list) if you have any further questions. Richmond Mathewson. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode :D as I said heaping spoonfuls of salt. Mint is wonderful and XFCE is a very straightforward and traditional DE. Both are fine recommendations, although I am leery of Mint rolling Debian which is the only official XFCE version I could find on the Mint download page. Is it perhaps an alternative install within the Gnome DVD? One thing that maybe could be said that for someone who wants mainly to have a Linux install available to test Livecode apps and perhaps run Livecode to tidy up applications being built for Linux, it may not matter at all which distro or DE you run, the only caveat to that being that you're better off installing a 32-bit version saving you the step of installing 32-bit compatibility libs. So long as you can get easy access to your stacks and apps from your Mac, and create an easy access to Livecode on your your Linux install, you might not find any reason to prefer one distro or DE over any other. That said, I think, Richmond, while it absolutely true that each OS requires adjustment and learning, this is a much more involved topic in approaching Linux due to the extreme variety of choice regarding distro and DE. People seek a certain comfort level and familiarity can be a major factor. The disruption of familiarity is one of the roots of the current DE rumblings. I don't see anything wrong at all with customizing the DE experience to mimic either OS X or Windows, if that makes the user happy. The comment about water wings and training wheels is silly on two levels. It ignores the real value of them - enabling the inexperienced to participate in and enjoy an activity in comfort and safety as they gain familiarity and confidence - and overstates the danger. It's ludicrous to say that anyone who rides a bike with training wheels will never ride without them, or who floats with water wings will never learn swim. Surely you don't believe that! As an extension of that argument, why not promote Gentoo, Arch, and Slackware? Higher learning curve = more genuine experience?! I suspect you don't actually believe that, at least not when put so directly. It is an old attitude in the Linux community that is thankfully becoming less prominent. Please be cautious not to promote it!!! I have never used any version of Pear OS and only presented it as an available alternative with a rationale for why Pete may find it attractive. Have you tried the most recent version? Some people seem to like it, http://sourceforge.net/projects/pearoslinux/reviews/ . Here's a review of a pre-release version which may be interesting: http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2012/02/15/pear-linux-comice-os-4-beta-1-review/ . Just for fun, I'm about to install it in a VM to have a look. (slow download) My DE is KDE 4.8 and I like it very much. I don't use all its features but it does some things that a really love. It works for me and makes me happy. While it's very popular (despite Richmond's feelings about it), it doesn't suit everyone (see Richmond's feelings about it - feelings he's perfectly entitled to, of course). I feel comfortable recommending it as a good option. Kubuntu has a very poor reputation among KDE users, but it sounds like Mint is improving its KDE version. http://youtu.be/ou9HIdlSQq0 http://youtu.be/Em3KOFvQSTY I do agree with Richmond that Mint or Ubuntu may be the most foolproof way to approach Linux. (Saying that does not in any
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/25/2012 03:13 PM, Warren Samples wrote: :D as I said heaping spoonfuls of salt Also applies to all my opinionated advice, highly biased - and definitely not representative of anyone else's experience - no matter how much I try to make it appear otherwise ;) Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:38 PM, Richmond wrote: As a Mac-o-philiac I have spent some time playing around with PearOS, and can honestly say it sucks; it being neither one thing nor the other. Richmond Mathewson. I am an advocate for simplicity when it comes to choosing a familiar OS. The fairly new and actively supported Ubuntu-based elementaryOS is becoming one of my personal favorites. Unlike PearOS, this one doesn't suck. ;-) It has obvious Mac-inspired features, but doesn't go overboard trying to become a Mac. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqFSMlulxhw They do try to detach the user from the normal desktop, but you can easily get it back. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPd5mWaxkic http://elementaryos.org/discover ~Roger ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/26/2012 12:50 AM, Warren Samples wrote: On 03/25/2012 03:13 PM, Warren Samples wrote: :D as I said heaping spoonfuls of salt Also applies to all my opinionated advice, highly biased - and definitely not representative of anyone else's experience - no matter how much I try to make it appear otherwise ;) Lots of opinionated advice on this Use-List, Thank God. Nobody round here cowed by the pressure of daft political pressure groups. That is what makes this Use-List so great! Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/25/2012 12:38 PM, Richmond wrote: I have spent some time playing around with PearOS, and can honestly say it sucks; I installed the latest version, Comice OS 4, and gave it only a quick look. While I don't mind if someone likes it, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, especially with hopes that it might an easy transition from OS X. Choosing Comice Classic at login, I did have a working dock with icons which included Finder so finding my home folder was a cinch. The Dock icon set mysteriously changed at some point and I could not find an obvious way to do that deliberately. Beyond that, the control center made me feel mostly like there was little I could do to take control. The software center seems very easy to get, though, and that's a big plus. The UI has with good snap, but in the end, a lot of simple basic stuff is not intuitive for the new user. I think even less than most of the more traditional flavored DEs. I also discovered that my unmodified install is useless with Livecode, which is Pete's interest. There are all kinds of problems with characters in scripts. you can't use /. Quotes are treated literally as in: put something into tAnything; put tAnything returns something with the quotes. If someone can tell me what's the likely cause, I'd be interested to know :D Even more interested in knowing how to remedy it. It was only a cursory look. I've never liked the stock OS X Dock and always ran it without 3D, reflections and animations and set it out of the way in the lower left corner, so this was definitely not a positive feature for me, but that's a matter of taste. That said, this distro has some real drawbacks in my opinion. Pete, this is not the best choice. Sorry to have brought it up. Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Hi All, How sad is this recent turn in Linux development! :-(( Many, many years ago, when a group of friends (software developers) show me the Linux OS, I told them that, in a future, most computer users would be using it. Of course, they laugh a lot of my comment and proceed to show me why this could not happen. They ask me how it was possible that me (being a Macintosh User, at least in that specific moment of time) I was wishing that most of the computer users will use Linux in the future. (no, not my wish but a prediction based in the information that they told me) According to them, my wish should have been that every computer user had a Macintosh in their desk... WRONG. Most of the time, I try to be impartial with my opinions and appreciations and possibly because of this when I was a Mac user, I DO NOT joined the club of Mac fans, who (at least in the country where I live) always display a perverse joy in bashing Microsoft OS (Dos and Windows) and every other Operating Systems, including OS/2, AmigaOS, Unix and (of course) Linux. I strongly suspect that the company of that time (or their salesman) cultivated and promoted this behavior. What did I saw in Linux, that according to my opinion would make it a success? That all Developers were colaborating toward a common goal, instead of competing against each other... As simple like that. At least from my humble point of view, this is the way how everything that is worth and perdurable in this life come to existence, grows and stays with us. Eventually, these clashes about user interfaces will solve themselves, but there is an important part of the Open Source movement that was not created along with it: Open Schools that teach 1) how to use these software (open source projects documentation is sorely missing or arcane in best cases) http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/why-open-source-documentation-lags/6484 and 2) how to develop software in the programming languages most frecuently used for open source projects. The Open source movement depends too much from the availability and generosity of Business, Goverments and Professional developers to fund their projects. Al -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/OT-A-couple-of-links-about-Gnome-and-usability-tp4498147p4502006.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Alejandro Tejada wrote: What did I saw in Linux, that according to my opinion would make it a success? That all Developers were colaborating toward a common goal, instead of competing against each other... As simple like that. I used to feel the same way, quite passionately so. I think my early posts in the Ubuntu forums may reflect that. But over the years, after spending more time at Linux conferences, IRCs, forums, etc., I've come to appreciate that one of the core values in that community is diversity: everyone gets exactly what they want. Sometimes what people want is to work on really big projects and that means tempering their own preferences in favor of the group's larger goals. Other times it means just scratching an itch, making something you'd like for yourself. That's what started all this with the utils rms made, and the same with Linus' post to Usenet when he started the kernel. To have so many distros and desktop environments isn't competition per se, any more than users of all OSes enjoy having many different apps available to solve a given problem. On the contrary, such diversity just gives us more choices. Everyone gets exactly what they want. Where Linux differs from single-company OSes is that with those your ability to make any choices about how you spend your day ends with applications; the design of the OS itself is decided by a small group of people under one roof far far away, and you either like it or you don't, but you can't change it. With Linux, you can choose among hundreds of distros, and customize them with the desktop environment of your choice, and then add all manner of widgets and tweaks to ever further hone it to be exactly what you want it to be. At least from my humble point of view, this is the way how everything that is worth and perdurable in this life come to existence, grows and stays with us. In the natural world evolution favors diversity. Since FOSS projects tend to reflect organic systems more than projects driven by a single organization, it seems natural that diversity would flourish in the Linux world. The diversity that characterizes the Linux world isn't what's holding it back. The only thing holding it back is the simple human nature of consumers: People buy whole-product solutions. Linux is an OS, and an OS isn't a complete solution; it needs a computer to run it on. Very few people truly ever choose their OS per se. What people buy is a computer, and it comes with an OS already installed. It's a complete solution, hardware and software - just turn it on and enjoy. It would never occur to the average person to replace the OS that came with their computer with something they downloaded off the Internet. Sure, more than 60 million people have done so, but those are a rare breed. Linux can only become mainstream when you can walk into your corner Walmart and buy a machine with Linux pre-installed. Dell, Asus, Acer and others release new models nearly every quarter with Ubuntu pre-installed, but mostly in markets outside the US (Italy, China, Thailand, and Taiwan were the last batches I in late 2011). But in general, PC vendors are working as hard as they can do destroy shareholder value by refusing to differentiate: No matter how much they spend on RD, no matter how many design meetings they have, no matter how much they spend on fabrication, all of it is a waste of money because as soon as the user turns on the machine the experience is identical across all computers from all of those vendors down to the pixel: Microsoft Windows. This refusal to differentiate has limited their ability to compete to just one dimension: price. And they're paying for it dearly, with margins plummeting year after year, and even the heavyweights like HP and Dell are now wondering if they can remain in the PC game at all. They seem to believe that the Ultrabook will raise their margins, but once again they're missing the mark: if everyone sells the same thing, the only leverage they have is on price. We can expect downward pressure on Ultrabook price points later this year, ultimately bringing them closer to traditional laptop prices, further eroding profits. If there was ever a time for a major PC vendor to consider launching a global line of systems with Ubuntu preinstalled, it's now - before most of them go bankrupt. As long as they all ship the same user experience in the OS, expect further consolidation with some of them dropping out entirely before 2013 is done. Here the clue train pulls into the station for PC vendors: Differentiate or die. Ubuntu is one opportunity available for that... -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Hi Richard, This thread has been very interesting to me as I'm considering getting a computer to run Linux. The problem I'm having is illustrated by the snippet from your post below. I'm a computer savvy person and worked with them most of my working life but I know nothing about Linux and really have no desire to spend much time installing and configuring an OS. I can buy a Mac or a PC, switch it on and it just boots up and runs. But where do I buy a computer that runs Linux and what version of Linux (if that's the right term) I need? I have pretty basic needs for this machine. Aside from running Livecode on it, I mostly need a web browser (I use Google tools for just about all my daily needs) plus some way of playing music. I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? I'm sure these are pretty basic questions for people who are familiar with the Linux world, but I think they illustrate why the use of Linux is not more widespread, no matter what advantages it has over other OS's. Pete On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.comwrote: People buy whole-product solutions. -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 3/24/12 5:48 PM, Pete wrote: I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? I've had very good luck with Parallels. And lots of people are using several other emulators too with good results, and many are free. I run Win XP, Vista, Ubuntu (sort of, I'm way behind on that,) and Mac OS X all from my iMac. I don't see any reason these days to have several computers just to use different operating systems. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/24/2012 05:48 PM, Pete wrote: I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? If you have enough memory, it may be more useful, and simpler, to run a Linux distro inside VirtualBox or VMWare. To make that even easier, you can find, using your favorite search engine, downloadable, ready to go virtual machine disk images of almost any Linux distro, in current and older versions. For casual use, this would be my recommendation. Good luck, Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Pete wrote: Hi Richard, This thread has been very interesting to me as I'm considering getting a computer to run Linux. ... But where do I buy a computer that runs Linux and what version of Linux (if that's the right term) I need? Every distro has its fans, some quite passionate. There's a running gag in the Ubuntu forums that whenever someone encounters an issue that's hard to solve, the answer is use Arch. :) Personally I like Ubuntu, and as a developer it's important to me that I'm working with the most popular distro (an estimated one-third of Linus desktops are running Ubuntu). With its mandate of Linux for Human Beings, it's provided a good experience for me. Mark Weider uses Fedora, and I've enjoyed that one as well. Linux Mint is another good choice. Whichever you choose, be sure to post all over the Internet that users of other distros or OSes are stupid fanbois who just don't get what Linux is all about! That'll help keep the myth of the Linux community alive for those who have no familiarity with it. :) If you were in the market for a computer with Ubuntu pre-installed, these companies are good options: http://www.system76.com/ http://zareason.com http://linucity.com While all three are very reputable vendors, the last there, LinuCity, is owned by my friend Aviv and I can personally vouch for the quality of service he provides. For more options, Canonical maintains a list of computers from major vendors they've worked with that have undergone their certification process: http://www.ubuntu.com/certification Note that that's only a subset of computers Ubuntu is compatible with. There are only so many hours in the day, and even a billionaire like Mark Shuttleworth can't afford to certify everything it runs on. One upside to Linux being mostly installed on computers designed for some other OS is that it expects that challenge and usually meets it pretty well. In my own experience, every machine I've installed it on has worked great out of the box. The only time I needed a special driver was for the NVideo card on my Dell Vostro, and Ubuntu identified that and prompted me to install it with one click on first boot. I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? And even on your Mac. Apple's OS X EULA only prevents you from legally installing it on anything other than an Apple branded computer, but their computers are frequently used by members of the Ubuntu forum for running Linux. Boot camp is a natural fit for that sort of thing. Because Apple tends to get specialized components, it can sometimes be trickier to get a solid install on a Mac than on popular PCs where the components are in such wide use that there are plenty of good drivers for them. Dual-booting with Windows is a popular option, esp. among gamers because Windows still rules the roost with the games market. I've set up dual-boot systems before and it's not hard (the Ubuntu installer includes options for that), but personally I found I was booting into Windows so rarely that I ditched that partition and put Windows into a VM within Ubuntu. In general, the sweet spot for Linux is computers between two and six years old. It can often run on newer systems, and even most older ones (Puppy Linux can run on darn near anything), but if a computer's too old it won't have the horsepower to deliver a great experience with the latest Linux distros, and if it's too new there's a chance of needing a driver that hasn't been made available yet. Even then there's almost always a way to get things to work, but for a simple first-time experience the two-to-six years guideline may be helpful for systems that haven't been certified. Most of the popular distros allow an option to run the OS from CD or USB drive, so you can try it out on a machine without having to install anything. If you grab the Ubuntu ISO disk image here and burn it do CD, you can boot from that CD and see what works and what doesn't on your machine: http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/download If you decide to install, the lovely Nixie Pixel teaches you how in her five-minute video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhnLk3gviWY :) Nixie's fun, but really the Ubuntu installer is so simple you probably won't need any help with that. I find it very similar to the OS X installer, and much simpler than installing Windows. Another way to explore Linux is in a VM. I use VirtualBox on all my systems (thanks to Mark Weider for the recommendaton), and here it outperforms Parallels in restoring sessions, taking less than half the time. Doesn't hurt that it's also free (in both senses of the word): https://www.virtualbox.org/ If
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Thanks for the reminder Jacque. I had some not-so-grat experiences a few years back running emulators on a Mac so that's coloring my opinion, but they've probably improved a lot since then. Pete On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 4:21 PM, J. Landman Gay jac...@hyperactivesw.comwrote: On 3/24/12 5:48 PM, Pete wrote: I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? I've had very good luck with Parallels. And lots of people are using several other emulators too with good results, and many are free. I run Win XP, Vista, Ubuntu (sort of, I'm way behind on that,) and Mac OS X all from my iMac. I don't see any reason these days to have several computers just to use different operating systems. -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Thanks Warren. As you and Jacque both pointed out the VM approach solves the hardware problem. So now I'm left with the question of which Linux distro to go for Pete On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Warren Samples war...@warrensweb.uswrote: On 03/24/2012 05:48 PM, Pete wrote: I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? If you have enough memory, it may be more useful, and simpler, to run a Linux distro inside VirtualBox or VMWare. To make that even easier, you can find, using your favorite search engine, downloadable, ready to go virtual machine disk images of almost any Linux distro, in current and older versions. For casual use, this would be my recommendation. Good luck, Warren __**_ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/**mailman/listinfo/use-livecodehttp://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode -- Pete Molly's Revenge http://www.mollysrevenge.com ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Thanks for all the info Richard. I'm already feeling SO superior to all those morons who don't run Ubuntu! I will probably try out VirtualBox since it's free and probably also a dual boot on my Windows 7 box since the only thing I ever do on Windows is test out LC apps developed on my Mac, although it is a pretty new computer so I may run into the driver issues you mentioned. Pete On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Richard Gaskin ambassa...@fourthworld.comwrote: Pete wrote: Hi Richard, This thread has been very interesting to me as I'm considering getting a computer to run Linux. ... But where do I buy a computer that runs Linux and what version of Linux (if that's the right term) I need? Every distro has its fans, some quite passionate. There's a running gag in the Ubuntu forums that whenever someone encounters an issue that's hard to solve, the answer is use Arch. :) Personally I like Ubuntu, and as a developer it's important to me that I'm working with the most popular distro (an estimated one-third of Linus desktops are running Ubuntu). With its mandate of Linux for Human Beings, it's provided a good experience for me. Mark Weider uses Fedora, and I've enjoyed that one as well. Linux Mint is another good choice. Whichever you choose, be sure to post all over the Internet that users of other distros or OSes are stupid fanbois who just don't get what Linux is all about! That'll help keep the myth of the Linux community alive for those who have no familiarity with it. :) If you were in the market for a computer with Ubuntu pre-installed, these companies are good options: http://www.system76.com/ http://zareason.com http://linucity.com While all three are very reputable vendors, the last there, LinuCity, is owned by my friend Aviv and I can personally vouch for the quality of service he provides. For more options, Canonical maintains a list of computers from major vendors they've worked with that have undergone their certification process: http://www.ubuntu.com/**certificationhttp://www.ubuntu.com/certification Note that that's only a subset of computers Ubuntu is compatible with. There are only so many hours in the day, and even a billionaire like Mark Shuttleworth can't afford to certify everything it runs on. One upside to Linux being mostly installed on computers designed for some other OS is that it expects that challenge and usually meets it pretty well. In my own experience, every machine I've installed it on has worked great out of the box. The only time I needed a special driver was for the NVideo card on my Dell Vostro, and Ubuntu identified that and prompted me to install it with one click on first boot. I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? And even on your Mac. Apple's OS X EULA only prevents you from legally installing it on anything other than an Apple branded computer, but their computers are frequently used by members of the Ubuntu forum for running Linux. Boot camp is a natural fit for that sort of thing. Because Apple tends to get specialized components, it can sometimes be trickier to get a solid install on a Mac than on popular PCs where the components are in such wide use that there are plenty of good drivers for them. Dual-booting with Windows is a popular option, esp. among gamers because Windows still rules the roost with the games market. I've set up dual-boot systems before and it's not hard (the Ubuntu installer includes options for that), but personally I found I was booting into Windows so rarely that I ditched that partition and put Windows into a VM within Ubuntu. In general, the sweet spot for Linux is computers between two and six years old. It can often run on newer systems, and even most older ones (Puppy Linux can run on darn near anything), but if a computer's too old it won't have the horsepower to deliver a great experience with the latest Linux distros, and if it's too new there's a chance of needing a driver that hasn't been made available yet. Even then there's almost always a way to get things to work, but for a simple first-time experience the two-to-six years guideline may be helpful for systems that haven't been certified. Most of the popular distros allow an option to run the OS from CD or USB drive, so you can try it out on a machine without having to install anything. If you grab the Ubuntu ISO disk image here and burn it do CD, you can boot from that CD and see what works and what doesn't on your machine: http://www.ubuntu.com/**download/ubuntu/downloadhttp://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/download If you decide to install, the lovely Nixie Pixel teaches you how in her
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/24/2012 06:53 PM, Pete wrote: the VM approach solves the hardware problem. So now I'm left with the question of which Linux distro to go for Pete Since you can test them so easily, I would suggest firstly not to be too anxious about making the best decision. You don't have to decide Before you start; you can decide as you go. Again, you can download either fully set up virtual machine disks or run almost any distro from a liveCD, which is also a fabulously easy way to trial a distro. I run openSUSE, currently and ran Mint 9 and 10 before that. For what you expect to be casual use, I would think that the Desktop Environment (the Unity, KDE, Gnome, Enlightment, XFCE, LXDE things that people talk about - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_environment) will be the most important consideration. You will need to find the one that is the most intuitive to you. After that, the software management aspect may be the second most important. This was much simpler in Mint than it is in openSUSE. I would recommend you try a Mint version first. I have no experience with Gnome 3, but Mint 9 is the long term support version of that distro and uses gnome 2. Mint 10 was very pleasant to use but it will lose support next month. I had bad experience with KDE under Mint and Kubuntu has a very poor reputation, so it's hard to recommend KDE in those distros. Do a little research about desktop variants of whatever disto you are gravitating to and (taking everything with heaping spoonfuls of salt) you should find some helpful info. Inside VirtualBox, you will probably find your desktop doesn't run with effects (Compiz, KWin) so you save some memory. This somewhat equalizes the playing field between the heavy feature-full (aka bloated) Desktop Environments and the light nimble (aka primitive) ones. That *should* mean you won't be making as many performance/feature sacrifices as you look for what best suits your taste. Good luck! Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/24/2012 06:53 PM, Pete wrote: So now I'm left with the question of which Linux distro to go for FWIW: http://dt.deviantart.com/journal/poll/1202084/ http://enigmacommunity.org/forums/topic/1099-whats-your-favorite-linux-desktop-environment/ http://www.muktware.com/survey/3444/poll-which-de-you-use Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 6:48 PM, Pete wrote: I already have a Windows laptop that I only use for testing out the LC apps I develop on my Mac. I don't really want another computer. It seems like Apple has just about shut the door on running anything but OS X on their computers. Can I install Linux on my Windows computer a dual boot it somehow? Pete The easiest way for a beginner is a WUBI installation. You don't need an emulator or virtual box or parallels, etc. Just a PC that is already running Windows. When you install Ubuntu via WUBI, it is just a series of folders on the hard-drive (no dedicated partition necessary). This method sets it up to dual-boot, so you just choose which OS to run when you turn the computer on. To remove it, you just uninstall it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYw6dOXw3pc http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/windows-installer ~Roger ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/24/2012 09:44 PM, Roger Eller wrote: The easiest way for a beginner is a WUBI installation. You don't need an emulator or virtual box or parallels, etc. Just a PC that is already running Windows. When you install Ubuntu via WUBI, it is just a series of folders on the hard-drive (no dedicated partition necessary). This method sets it up to dual-boot, so you just choose which OS to run when you turn the computer on. To remove it, you just uninstall it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYw6dOXw3pc http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/windows-installer ~Roger That's interesting. I had never seen this. It seems a really simple and great way to deal with dual-boot installation, provided that one wants to run Ubuntu. However a dual-boot system is not nearly as convenient for many purposes, such as let me see real quick how this looks/works on Linux and Windows. I see that convenience as a big plus for virtual machines. Although I recognize the advantages of running the OS natively, for a lot of purposes this is moot. Maybe it's a case of choose the tool that lets you do the job the way you want it done ;) Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/24/2012 06:53 PM, Pete wrote: you can find downloadable, ready to go virtual machine disk images of almost any Linux distro, in current and older versions. Here are some links to preconfigured virtual disk images. http://virtualboxes.org/images/ http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtualboximage/files/ http://virtualboximages.com/Free.VirtualBox.VDI.Downloads http://virtualboximages.com/ and info on how to get one running once you've downloaded it: http://virtualboxes.org/doc/ Good luck! Warren ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
[OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
The first link is to a comprehensive review of Gnome 3, the whole thing being worth reading, but which culminates in the following: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155-16.html The implications for the Gnome-Ubuntu usability project are quite devastating. Basically this justifies all of Torvald's rants about interface authoritarianism Then we have Carla Shroder's review of Bodhi. Note in particular Hooglund's comments on the core issue: one size does not fit all people or all devices. https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/556594-bodhi-linux-the-beautiful-configurable-lightweight-linux The debate has turned from whether we like or dislike Gnome3 or KDE4, and has turned towards the core question: is there one thing we should be imposing on people at all? Finally, check out Linux Mint http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/linux-mint-12-offers-traditional-gnome-feel Finally, we have the ongoing revolt over the interface vandalism that KDE4 represented, and the forking of the Trinity environment as a response. http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/trinity-kde.html Basically, the Linux desktop world in the last few years has been testing an hypothesis to destruction. This hypothesis was that there is such a thing as usability, with rules that can be discovered and implemented, and that if you do this, people will be grateful. This hypothesis has been decisively falsified, particularly the part about gratitude. In the course of testing this hypothesis what happened was that 'usability' ceased to have any relation to what real people actually do and want while using their machines, because actually the greatest usability feature is familiarity. Never mind if other people find it politically correct, if I am used to doing it a certain way, its usable for me. The predictable result was users are walking with their feet, first away from KDE4, and now away from Gnome3 and Unity, often towards xfce. The less predictable result has been that the whole question of whether usability is a useful concept at all has started to be debated. As Hooglund's remarks illustrate. Me, I have moved to Fluxbox, because it gets out of the way and stays out. Everyone I support will be moving to xfce over the next few months. With any luck, they will not notice its not Gnome2! Peter ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
All very good points, Peter. I am also an XFCE and OpenWindows (OLVWM in Linux speak) fan. One important distinction to keep in mind here - GNOME is not GTK as KDE is not QT. So long as developers keep that in mind when creating software, the desktop paradigm should not be a concern in delivering your applications in the Linux market. Your GTK or QT based apps will run properly under any desktop manager so long as the GTK or QT libraries are installed. Also, you can elect to install other desktop managers under Ubuntu if you do a manual install. I always install FVWM and XFCE and then add BlackBox by building it from source and installing it. If you really want to guarantee compatibility, toss those and look to xt and xlib. Every other mid-level X11 framework has to start there. Tim On Mar 23, 2012, at 1:37 AM, Peter Alcibiades wrote: The first link is to a comprehensive review of Gnome 3, the whole thing being worth reading, but which culminates in the following: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fedora-16-gnome-3-review,3155-16.html The implications for the Gnome-Ubuntu usability project are quite devastating. Basically this justifies all of Torvald's rants about interface authoritarianism Then we have Carla Shroder's review of Bodhi. Note in particular Hooglund's comments on the core issue: one size does not fit all people or all devices. https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/556594-bodhi-linux-the-beautiful-configurable-lightweight-linux The debate has turned from whether we like or dislike Gnome3 or KDE4, and has turned towards the core question: is there one thing we should be imposing on people at all? Finally, check out Linux Mint http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/linux-mint-12-offers-traditional-gnome-feel Finally, we have the ongoing revolt over the interface vandalism that KDE4 represented, and the forking of the Trinity environment as a response. http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/trinity-kde.html Basically, the Linux desktop world in the last few years has been testing an hypothesis to destruction. This hypothesis was that there is such a thing as usability, with rules that can be discovered and implemented, and that if you do this, people will be grateful. This hypothesis has been decisively falsified, particularly the part about gratitude. In the course of testing this hypothesis what happened was that 'usability' ceased to have any relation to what real people actually do and want while using their machines, because actually the greatest usability feature is familiarity. Never mind if other people find it politically correct, if I am used to doing it a certain way, its usable for me. The predictable result was users are walking with their feet, first away from KDE4, and now away from Gnome3 and Unity, often towards xfce. The less predictable result has been that the whole question of whether usability is a useful concept at all has started to be debated. As Hooglund's remarks illustrate. Me, I have moved to Fluxbox, because it gets out of the way and stays out. Everyone I support will be moving to xfce over the next few months. With any luck, they will not notice its not Gnome2! Peter ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Like Tim noted, any user of any current major distro who prefers Gnome 2 can install it and use it. Ubuntu goes so far as to make this a one-click option at login. And it's Linux: there are more than a hundred distros to choose from, most of them almost infinitely configurable, so any Linux user complaining that they can't get exactly what they want hasn't really tried. Anyone who used Mac at the turn of this century has already been through this sort of transition: many folks hated OS X, and I know a couple people who still prefer OS 9 to this day. What Apple did (and will likely do again when they merge OS X and iOS once ARM chips become strong enough to support that, or Intel's post-Medfield line does) is what Microsoft did with the transition from XP to Vista/7 and is doing again with the transition to Windows 8, is pretty much the same thing that Gnome is doing with Gnome 3 and Canonical is doing with Unity: moving their OS designs from a more homogeneous past into an increasingly diverse present. Times change, audiences change, and OS designs change along with them. Where Linux outshines the others is its diversity: there are plenty of options available for every taste. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Richard Gaskin wrote Like Tim noted, any user of any current major distro who prefers Gnome 2 can install it and use it. Ubuntu goes so far as to make this a one-click option at login. Richard, I wish that were true, I would simply do it. But its vanishing from the repositories. I am on Debian Wheezy, and neither gnome2 nor the old version of gdm are options. You have to compile from source to get it. What we have lost in gdm now is as serious as what has gone missing from gnome3 - we have lost the ability to set up xdmcp on the host. We still have the ability to do remote connect from the client, but not to set it up in the painless way we used to have on the target. We've lost gdm-setup. I read on the blogs that gnome2 is vanishing from ubuntu repositories also. I haven't checked the latest Fedora releases. You can get back a lot of the gnome2 functionality in gnome3, the window control buttons for instance, and the desktop controls, but by all accounts you have to work at it, and for much functionality you are now reduced to editing text files. Actually, its even worse. It may not be terribly good practice to log on to a gui as root, but it can be very convenient sometimes. Well, gdm allowed you to configure it to allow that. gdm2 its not an option. There is probably some way to do it by editing custom.conf. But if you had it, why take it away? This stuff turns too readily into a peevish complaint about gnome or kde. But the point that strikes me as being of much wider interest is that the gnome project always has been motivated by a vision of usability and ease of use, naturalness in method. They really worked at that. So something very interesting has happened when the result of trying very hard to deliver that vision is in fact less usability for a substantial proportion of users. And it has happened not only to gnome, but to kde as well. Peter -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/OT-A-couple-of-links-about-Gnome-and-usability-tp4498147p4499556.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
Peter Alcibiades wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote Like Tim noted, any user of any current major distro who prefers Gnome 2 can install it and use it. Ubuntu goes so far as to make this a one-click option at login. Richard, I wish that were true, I would simply do it. But its vanishing from the repositories. I am on Debian Wheezy, and neither gnome2 nor the old version of gdm are options. Then switch to Ubuntu, where it's an option at login. Ironically, for all the flak Shuttleworth gets he seems to be doing more for Gnome2 than the Gnome project. You have to compile from source to get it. How badly do you want it? ;) I read on the blogs that gnome2 is vanishing from ubuntu repositories also. Maybe, but it's there now. The bottom line with old things like Gnome2 is that it's all open source: it can never die except for lack of interest. If enough people want it, it'll be around forever. If it's not around, not enough people wanted it. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
Re: [OT] A couple of links about Gnome and usability
On 03/23/2012 10:37 AM, Peter Alcibiades wrote: snip Me, I have moved to Fluxbox, because it gets out of the way and stays out. Everyone I support will be moving to xfce over the next few months. With any luck, they will not notice its not Gnome2! snip Since XFCE allowed transparencies and icons on the desktop it really is 95% GNOME 2 (the only beef I have is that I cannot get the desktop icons to sort themselves into some sort of order). What annoys me is not GNOME 3 or UNITY or KDE 4.5 (even though I don't like any of them), but that they have been pushed at the expense of GNOME 2 and the earlier versions of KDE. What should have been done, is that GNOME 2 and KDE 3.x were retained so that people could choose. What seems to be happening in the Linux world (well, the Linux Desktop world at least) is remarkably similar to what has been the case with commercial OSes since the year dot; a real case of Henry Ford (black, black or black); increasing restriction of choice, not for those in the know who are happy to mess around with the dear old command line and install Fluxbox, LXDE, Icebox and so on, but for people like my Dad, who bunged an Ubuntu disk in his Laptop and suddenly (at the age of 79) had to learn a new paradigm, something he could well do without . . . . . . or, put it another way; thanks to effing UNITY (United we stand, United we fall - the latter being all too often the case), my Dad and I spent far too long hunched over his laptop last New Year when we could have spent the time on something more rewarding (such as chewing over Zeno's paradox, ha, ha)! While my example may seem banal and trivial, ultimately completely rejigging a GUI without: 1. Let end-users know that they are suddenly going to get a rude awakening, and 2. Giving them a choice to revert (Ha, flaming-well ha, have you seen the GNOME fallback thing - a sort of castrated GNOME 2 obviously designed to make people go Oh, F*** and get on with learning how to manage with either GNOME 3 or UNITY???) to what they have got used to. And my Father, far from being the exception, is fairly middle-of-the-road for desktop users who have, at least, managed to be seduced away from Windows XP (which, face it, is almost the same as GNOME 2). -- Tried MATE; not what it seems at all; but then why on earth should anybody expect it to be anything at all; it is an (admittedly brave) attempt to produce a GNOME 2 clone in no time flat; unsurprisingly it doesn't really cut the mustard. Tried Cinnamon; ditto. But, then, these clones shouldn't be necessary; it is ONLY because the Linux Gods (who, increasingly can be seen to have feet of clay; or, maybe, feet that are inclined to dance the way of fashion) have removed GNOME 2 from the repositories that they were thought to be in the first place. -- Why is Richmond taking up so much space on a Use-List that is not, quite frankly, aimed at people fussed about the Linux desktop? Good question. BECAUSE, ultimately, we all are involved to some extent or another, with producing software that people will have to use on all sorts of GUIs; and choice made about stuff such as UNITY and Windows 8 affect our work and decisions we will make about our interface design. I am well aware that many of the people who read this Use-List are going to snort a bit and say something rather like Oh, there's nutty Richmond, Peter and no-quite-so-nutty Richard again: but they would do better to follow this discussion because, to misquote a certain throaty-voiced singer of the sixties The interfaces they are a-changing. Richmond Mathewson. ___ use-livecode mailing list use-livecode@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
