Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Peter TB Brett]

On 27/02/2016 21:31, Tore Nilsen wrote:


One thing I really would hope LiveCode will do, is to find room for
this as a part of the program for the conference in Edinburgh in
August. I have already registered and will attend. If there is
anything I can do to help facilitate this, I am more than happy to do
so.


Well, we're looking for people to give talks at the conference, and what 
you're proposing sounds like a very interesting and suitable topic. 
Drop supp...@livecode.com a message and we'll get you into the 
conference schedule.


  Peter

--
Dr Peter Brett 
LiveCode Open Source Team

LiveCode 2016 Conference https://livecode.com/edinburgh-2016/

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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[J. Landman Gay]

On 2/29/2016 9:45 PM, Peter M. Brigham wrote:

On Feb 28, 2016, at 4:21 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:


On 2/28/2016 9:07 AM, Peter M. Brigham wrote:

The old RevOnline/User Samples was an attempt at this, but most
people these days are used to using a browser to download files
and resources. That has the added advantage of showing up in
Google searches. Edinburgh really should set up a webpage on the
home site that incorporates an upload system


The user samples are already online, it just needs some enhancement
(and probably a server move): http://revonline2.runrev.com/


How do you navigate to this from the LC homepage??? If there's a
route, it's not at all obvious.


That seems to be one of the enhancements we need. ;)

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Peter M. Brigham]

On Feb 28, 2016, at 4:21 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 2/28/2016 9:07 AM, Peter M. Brigham wrote:
>> The old RevOnline/User Samples was an attempt at this, but most
>> people these days are used to using a browser to download files and
>> resources. That has the added advantage of showing up in Google
>> searches. Edinburgh really should set up a webpage on the home site
>> that incorporates an upload system
> 
> The user samples are already online, it just needs some enhancement (and 
> probably a server move): http://revonline2.runrev.com/

How do you navigate to this from the LC homepage??? If there's a route, it's 
not at all obvious.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig



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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Matt Maier]

For what it's worth, I got the Indy license so that I could release
github.Howstr.com under whatever license I wanted. In this case that's the
MIT license. So for me it's not even about keeping it secret, it's about
sharing with fewer restrictions than the GPL allows.

Of course, I am turning Howstr into a business, but I committed to Indy
long before I committed to going into business. Being able to pick my
license was important to me as a hobbyist.
On Feb 29, 2016 05:57, "Roland Huettmann" 
wrote:

> Well, Mark, I like the word "creative" )
>
> Hobbyists, students etc not able or willing to pay the full fees and still
> wishing to have some reflection of protecting code could form an
> association which would receive full rights from LiveCode to protect code
> in the name of the association, and all members of the association would
> have an internal agreement about protection. There could be an agreement
> that if such rights are claimed by a member then he could obtain them for a
> fee and change status, or leave the association and go for Indy or Business
> license.
>
> If such association would pay 10,000 dollars a month to LiveCode, it would
> need 500 hobbyists and students paying 20 dollars a month to raise such
> money not counting big overhead costs and not making any profit which an
> association does not have to make.
>
> ---
>
> I am working in Africa a lot, mainly Togo, Ghana etc.. There is hardly any
> student able to survive a month, and his or her ability to pay would be
> zero. But it would be an excellent ground for LiveCode for really reach big
> masses of students and developers if we would promote it. A community
> version is essential, but also protected versions are of need. Where to get
> the funding? Aid programs?
>
> In any case, we are glad that we have a community version !
>
> ---
>
> To put myself into the shoes of hobbyists/students in need of some kind of
> code protection: I personally would feel kind of pushed to order now at
> least an Indy license to not loose the opportunity to keep a low pricing
> schema later. It is only this one point which would make me a bit sour.
> Even if it is meant in a nice way, it is a kind of unpleasant feeling that
> now I must decide about something that I - hobbyist - may only need in
> future, or never will need at all, but should decide to pay right away to
> not loose the benefit of lower recurring payments. And then even today such
> Indy license is double the price that I would usually be willing to pay
> just to keep going without expectation of much reward. Just the price
> target - and the future price especially - would make me think a lot. Since
> it may become not affordable for a lot of people in near future, it
> triggers the thought of stepping out now. Or it is an incentive to step in
> now.
>
> So, from such point of view it become a kind of "futures" trading - with
> risks involved when leveraging the future.
>
> Well, there are equally valid other points of view, and I could also put
> myself into their shows including the shoes of the team itself.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 29 February 2016 at 12:37, Mark Rauterkus 
> wrote:
>
> > Bravo to Tore Nilsen in this thread. Spot on.
> >
> > I mighy call myself a Hobbyists too, but I LOVE the open source community
> > version.
> >
> > Those with extra cash who desire to support the Mothership may want to
> > invest into a new LiveCode feature from time to time. Or, attend a
> LiveCode
> > event.
> >
> > I think the open source business model is splendid.
> >
> > As a hobbyists, we need to be more creative. Sell your services, get a
> > retainer, do extras with the next upgrade to customize, make money on
> ads,
> > sell a book, be a paid speaker / presenter, etc.
> >
> > Face it, open source LiveCode is still impossible for 99.99% of the world
> > to modify and cheat you from. Yake and resell without permission. And if
> > that happens, the public scorn would be bad. The backlash would be ugly.
> >
> > Mark Rauterkus
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Mark Rauterkus]

Bravo to Tore Nilsen in this thread. Spot on.

I mighy call myself a Hobbyists too, but I LOVE the open source community
version.

Those with extra cash who desire to support the Mothership may want to
invest into a new LiveCode feature from time to time. Or, attend a LiveCode
event.

I think the open source business model is splendid.

As a hobbyists, we need to be more creative. Sell your services, get a
retainer, do extras with the next upgrade to customize, make money on ads,
sell a book, be a paid speaker / presenter, etc.

Face it, open source LiveCode is still impossible for 99.99% of the world
to modify and cheat you from. Yake and resell without permission. And if
that happens, the public scorn would be bad. The backlash would be ugly.

Mark Rauterkus
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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[J. Landman Gay]

On 2/28/2016 9:07 AM, Peter M. Brigham wrote:

The old RevOnline/User Samples was an attempt at this, but most
people these days are used to using a browser to download files and
resources. That has the added advantage of showing up in Google
searches. Edinburgh really should set up a webpage on the home site
that incorporates an upload system


The user samples are already online, it just needs some enhancement (and 
probably a server move): http://revonline2.runrev.com/


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[stephen barncard]

And of course the Apple  'App Store' for the desktop is highly over-rated
and has benefits for the developer and end user if avoided.

On Sun, Feb 28, 2016 at 10:00 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami <
bra...@hindu.org> wrote:

> The "Hobbyist" using the community version cannot deploy on the App Store.




Stephen Barncard - Sebastopol Ca. USA -
mixstream.org
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Tore Nilsen]

> 28. feb. 2016 kl. 19.11 skrev Robert Mann :
> 
> Use open sourced for in house commercial application! whouaou!! 
> that does not really sound very open source.. kind of twisting the game in
> way.

This is where I think you get open source wrong. Open source does not mean non 
commercial. It is totally in line with the licence to develop commercial 
applications with the community version of LiveCode. Open source only means 
that you can not lock in the source code for your program. 

If you think that you need to protect your source code, you then need to deploy 
it with an indy or business version of LiveCode. The good thing about the 
community version is that you may well use it to develop your application, and 
you do not have to buy an indy or business version until you think you have an 
application worth protecting.

You then open the stack you created in community version with your new version 
of LiveCode, set the password to protect the code and deploy it to whatever 
platform you like. And to be fair, if you think that your application has any 
financial meritt, the cost of an Indy version should not frighten anyone from 
paying for it. If your application is not going to generate more than the cost 
of the indy version, then you probably should not bother bringing it to the 
market. 

I can see how it would come in handy, also for hobbies to be able to lock down 
their applications from time to time. However, in order for LiveCode as a 
company, to make enough money to support the development of LiveCode, they need 
to make a clear distinction between free versions of LiveCode and payed version 
of the application.

In order to shoehorn in a version of LiveCode between community and indy, they 
would seriously need to cripple the community version. As it is today, with 
LiveCode 8 you get more functionality in the community version, as you can 
deploy to html5, without paying anything. Developers with an Indy version would 
need to pay an extra $499 to deploy to html5. 

Regards 

Tore Nilsen
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Ludovic Thebault]

On Sun, 28 Feb 2016 11:32:45 -0700, Roger Guay wrote:
> Excellent point! What would you think about an inexpensive LC license 
> for non-profits and free apps?


I dream of that !

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Roger Guay]

Excellent point! What would you think about an inexpensive LC license for 
non-profits and free apps?

Roger


> On Feb 28, 2016, at 11:00 AM, Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami  
> wrote:
> 
> Just to throw in two mangoes from Hawaii
> 
> Matt.. there is also the unspoken "Apple Policy" problem.
> 
> The "Hobbyist" using the community version cannot deploy on the App Store.
> 
> This kind of throws an rusty wrench into what would otherwise be "all good"  
> overall picture.
> 
> But we cannot put that on LiveCode policy
> 
> .. and Apple is only just continuing to drive developers away...
> 
> BR
> 
> 
> 
> On February 28, 2016 at 7:39:29 AM, RM 
> (richmondmathew...@gmail.com) wrote:
> 
> Matt Maier wrote:
>> I'm still not clear on how the community edition of Livecode isn't
>> sufficient for hobby purposes.
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Sannyasin Brahmanathaswami]

Just to throw in two mangoes from Hawaii

Matt.. there is also the unspoken "Apple Policy" problem.

The "Hobbyist" using the community version cannot deploy on the App Store.

This kind of throws an rusty wrench into what would otherwise be "all good"  
overall picture.

But we cannot put that on LiveCode policy

.. and Apple is only just continuing to drive developers away...

BR



On February 28, 2016 at 7:39:29 AM, RM 
(richmondmathew...@gmail.com) wrote:

Matt Maier wrote:
> I'm still not clear on how the community edition of Livecode isn't
> sufficient for hobby purposes.
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[RM]

The Community version is 100% fantastic for hobbyists as well as anyone 
else who isn't fussed

about protecting their code.

I use the Community version on a daily basis to develop software for my 
business, where code
 protection is not an issue; I also use a commercial version (4.5) to 
develop software where
I want my code protected, and when I feel that Livecode has features to 
offer in later versions vis-a-vis my commercial stuff (Devawriter Pro) I 
shall purchase a commercial version.


I also use the Community version to teach programming to school 
children, who develop "silly little games" they exchange with each 
other, while having absolutely no commercial value whatsoever,
they do stop kids mindlessly playing side-scrollers and get them writing 
them, and in the process
learning an awful lot of useful problem-solving skills that are directly 
transferrable to many walks of life.


Richmond.

On 27.02.2016 01:36, Matt Maier wrote:

I'm still not clear on how the community edition of Livecode isn't
sufficient for hobby purposes. It's got tons of functionality, and it's
free, and the main restriction is that anything you distribute has to be
licensed GPL. But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you
distribute, why would you need to close the source?

If you just want to help support Livecode with money you can always donate
to them, or you could publicize your cool projects to get more visibility
for Livecode and more developers to try it. In fact, distributing
interesting projects open source is a great way to get more developers to
try Livecode. Whereas paying Livecode a modest subscription, so that you
can distributed closed source, doesn't help nearly as much.



On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 2:58 PM, [-hh]  wrote:


Really good points, Roland.

Let me add explicitly this one.

Build on the next generation, who will become decision maker in a few
years. And, if they *know* the software, may also become possible
buyers of LC-related products:
Give teachers and their students in class FREE copies.
Give university students and hobbyists very cheap copies.

If the company continues to have such crazy pricing strategies as now
then it will loose in sum: The negative income by people "jumping off"
will be greater than the additional positive income by raised prices.

For example I went with backing nearly everything in the last three
years already over my limits: An Indy license, a community membership
(who of the writers here has also one?), an additional HTML5 license,
a lot of time wasted for beta-testing. I'm hobbyist, sell nothing ...

The next "pricing game" will force me to jump off. And jumping off will
mean to jump off by 100%, in anger, not only partially.

And certainly I'm not the only one who works for no money, pays only
to support LC. The current pricing strategy becomes aggressive against
this group of users.



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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Peter M. Brigham]

LC has long been plagued with a multiplicity of source sites for LC 
stacks/applications/resources. There needs to be a central repository for all 
these. The old RevOnline/User Samples was an attempt at this, but most people 
these days are used to using a browser to download files and resources. That 
has the added advantage of showing up in Google searches. Edinburgh really 
should set up a webpage on the home site that incorporates an upload system 
requiring the user to name and describe the stack/app to be uploaded and 
specify the LC version and licensing/distribution constraints (from freeware to 
GPL all the way to commercial/protected). It is central to the company's 
interest to showcase the full panoply of what LC can do, and it is in the 
user-base interest to have one central repository for available resources.

IMO this deserves to have a high priority.

I was going to suggest linking to a repository from the case studies page at 
LC, but "LiveCode stories" seems to be the current iteration of this, and when 
I click on that link on the LC homepage I get an empty webpage. (OTOH, my 
Firefox browser has been acting a little squirrelly lately.)

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig


On Feb 27, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Tore Nilsen wrote:

> 
>> 27. feb. 2016 kl. 21.51 skrev Richard Gaskin :
>> 
>> What could happen if we change "LiveCode" there to "we”?
>> 
>> The company has many deep technical obligations to complete, and education 
>> is an area that really needs the insights of education specialists to guide 
>> it.
>> 
>> And since we're talking about things that would be scripted, who better to 
>> do that than educators who script?
>> 
>> How shall we proceed with identifying the tools and other resources we need 
>> to fulfill the vision you've outlined here?
>> 
>> We set up a section of the forums for educational outreach:
>> http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=107 
>> 
>> 
>> I would encourage you to consider posting your thoughts there, and let's see 
>> if we can put together a team and make it happen.
> 
> 
> I do agree that this is a kind of task where we, as educators and users of 
> LiveCode should do the actual work. However, I think it is vitally important 
> that the outcome of such a process has an active backing from the company, 
> and this was my reason for using the phrase I did. I fully accept the 
> challenges and obligations that LiveCode as a company has to meet, and I also 
> see much of this and the effort that has been done in the last couple of 
> years as key to any success in the education sector.
> 
> I will post my thoughts in the forums, and I will also encourage others who 
> work in education to take part in discussions about what we can do to help 
> put LiveCode in the hands of more teachers and students. I will also try to 
> come up with suggestions for tools and resources I personally will find 
> useful, and hope others will as well. It may be helpful to share different 
> national and local curriculums, in order to identify useful resources and 
> common approaches to different parts of said curriculums.
> 
> One thing I really would hope LiveCode will do, is to find room for this as a 
> part of the program for the conference in Edinburgh in August. I have already 
> registered and will attend. If there is anything I can do to help facilitate 
> this, I am more than happy to do so. 
> 
> Regards
> Tore N
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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Robert Mann]

Hi all,

I wrote a "summary" contribution in the orginal thread I laucched the debate
on, to explain  more clearly the psychological side that motivates the
HOBBYIST Bear... some clever guys here seem to not incorportate that kind of
elements in their thinking/writing. *We are humans, still!*

And I precise here the importance of dealing with our need to *make it
possible to close the code if we wish to*, eventhough we're not pros,
backing up Curry Kenworthy contribution.

Monte Goulding-2 
--
You might need to fill in some blanks for me on why that is important for a
hobbyist? I would say one feature of a hobbyist with a budget market license
could be no code protection so* it's an important point to clarify*. 

RH
-
Yes, Matt, I have no problem with open source, especially not in those 
areas you point too, and I also said it. *I share my code, why not? *

>> Curry Kenworthy

*The world is not quite so simple! *

I've seen many people create freeware in spare time and decide to charge 
money (or not) for some products after gaining a following or after 
having more time.* The decision often comes later. *

Even when money is not a goal, *plenty of freeware products remain 
closed. *


>>>> TO ME THAT IS EXACLTLY WHAT DRAWS THE LINE BEETWEEN ::
• an education OPEN SOURCE version
• an indy-hobbyist  where CLOSED CODE is an option
• an indy-Pro & pro versions where CLOSED CODE IS THE RULE

AND to sum up the numerous participations,
it seems somekind of 100-200 dollars max per year for the indy-hobbysit
version would make a few of us happy with an indy hobbits version.
And that more of us would be much happier in an aloud perpetual license
mode, because me just move.. not so fast!!

And the main difference between pro & hobysit is the level of service
provided and possibly the scope of platforms.
Although this is evolutive :: so far I would tend to think that a hobbist
will not develop for mobiles. But. I would not give my hand on that point.

Or maybe livecode could split 
-- a desktop hobysit licence,
-- a separate mobile hobist licence
hence provideding a more linear ladder from free open sourced to pro
version.


THIS supplementary income could well be used to back up the development of a
nice educative package around the open source version, *perhaps with a new
kind of "teacher" contributions in videos etc.. on the open source platform,
for the "kids tech academies"* that are going to spread like hell it seems.
And that would be a fantastic thing.

EDUCATION WAS A VERY STRONG PART OF THE ORIGINAL HYPERTALK STORY.

thanks all for all these deep thinking contributions.
Robert




--
View this message in context: 
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/LiveCode-for-the-Hobbyists-tp4701530p4701607.html
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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[J. Landman Gay]

They've put out a call for conference speakers. Maybe you could address it 
there, or set up a panel with other educators who attend.



On February 27, 2016 3:33:05 PM Tore Nilsen  wrote:

One thing I really would hope LiveCode will do, is to find room for this as 
a part of the program for the conference in Edinburgh in August. I have 
already registered and will attend. If there is anything I can do to help 
facilitate this, I am more than happy to do so.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Richard Gaskin]

Tore Nilsen wrote:

> I do agree that this is a kind of task where we, as educators and
> users of LiveCode should do the actual work. However, I think it is
> vitally important that the outcome of such a process has an active
> backing from the company...

Oh indeed it does.

One of the projects we've been cooking up in our community engagement 
meetings is forming an Educational Outreach Team.  Max Shafer has kindly 
offered to be the team leader to help organize things, but do date 
progress has been slow thus far.  We've sent invitations to a number of 
educators to use the forum so we can work out the sorts of projects you 
outlined, but given the overtaxed lives of most educators it's not 
surprising it's taken a while to bring others on board.


I hope your post will help kickstart the process.

For any of you interested in jumping into the discussion, Tore's post is 
here:



Kevin is very strongly supportive of any and all efforts to extend the 
scope of ways LiveCode can be of ever greater value in education.  Even 
though most of these activities center around the Community Edition and 
as such won't help with developer salaries straight away, he fully 
recognizes the value for the platform as a whole and is quite willing to 
support anything the community can accomplish along these lines in any 
way needed.


Let's get this ball rolling and see where we can take it.

Thanks for your very helpful contributions, Tore.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org


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Re: LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Tore Nilsen]

> 27. feb. 2016 kl. 21.51 skrev Richard Gaskin :
> 
> What could happen if we change "LiveCode" there to "we”?
> 
> The company has many deep technical obligations to complete, and education is 
> an area that really needs the insights of education specialists to guide it.
> 
> And since we're talking about things that would be scripted, who better to do 
> that than educators who script?
> 
> How shall we proceed with identifying the tools and other resources we need 
> to fulfill the vision you've outlined here?
> 
> We set up a section of the forums for educational outreach:
> http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=107 
> 
> 
> I would encourage you to consider posting your thoughts there, and let's see 
> if we can put together a team and make it happen.


I do agree that this is a kind of task where we, as educators and users of 
LiveCode should do the actual work. However, I think it is vitally important 
that the outcome of such a process has an active backing from the company, and 
this was my reason for using the phrase I did. I fully accept the challenges 
and obligations that LiveCode as a company has to meet, and I also see much of 
this and the effort that has been done in the last couple of years as key to 
any success in the education sector.

I will post my thoughts in the forums, and I will also encourage others who 
work in education to take part in discussions about what we can do to help put 
LiveCode in the hands of more teachers and students. I will also try to come up 
with suggestions for tools and resources I personally will find useful, and 
hope others will as well. It may be helpful to share different national and 
local curriculums, in order to identify useful resources and common approaches 
to different parts of said curriculums.

One thing I really would hope LiveCode will do, is to find room for this as a 
part of the program for the conference in Edinburgh in August. I have already 
registered and will attend. If there is anything I can do to help facilitate 
this, I am more than happy to do so. 

Regards
Tore N
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LiveCode for Educators (was LiveCode for the Hobbyists)

[Richard Gaskin]

Tore -

Thank you for that valuable contribution to this discussion.  I think 
you nailed it perfectly here:


   In my opinion LiveCode should try to put together a package of
   resources that can help teachers to use LiveCode in accordance
   with the competence aims of their respective curriculums.

What could happen if we change "LiveCode" there to "we"?

The company has many deep technical obligations to complete, and 
education is an area that really needs the insights of education 
specialists to guide it.


And since we're talking about things that would be scripted, who better 
to do that than educators who script?


How shall we proceed with identifying the tools and other resources we 
need to fulfill the vision you've outlined here?


We set up a section of the forums for educational outreach:
http://forums.livecode.com/viewforum.php?f=107

I would encourage you to consider posting your thoughts there, and let's 
see if we can put together a team and make it happen.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 LiveCode Community Manager
 rich...@livecode.org


Tore Nilsen wrote:


27. feb. 2016 kl. 03.35 skrev ambassador at fourthworld.com:


Another good way to get a user base is to be available in schools.
This is hard work, as network administrators, school boards, and
politicians are often against all change. RunRev put a little
effort into this a long time ago and I don't think they currently
do anything in this regard.


Agreed, it is hard.

What specifically do you think LiveCode Ltd should be doing for greater EDU 
outreach?

And what do you think the community of educators using LC might be able to do 
to also further those goals?


Apologies for the length of this, but the questions raised by Richard are 
something I have been thinking about for quite some time.

As a teacher I use LiveCode for two different purposes:

a) As a tool to make educational software “on the fly”. I find LiveCode to be 
an invaluable resource, if and when I encounter a situation where I can see 
that my students will benefit from using digital learning material. I can 
easily make an application that will either help my students in the process of 
understanding a particular topic, practice skills or solve problems. Since I am 
making my own pedagogical software, I can be quite certain that it will fulfil 
the needs of my students, and myself, at any given time. This is in my opinion 
a great time saver, as I do not have to spend time looking for a solution for 
my particular problem(s), only to discover, half way through the process, that 
the chosen application does not have the content or the methods I am looking 
for.

I think a lot of teachers would benefit from being able to make their own 
software. This is one area where I think LiveCode as a company should focus 
their effort and where educators using LiveCode can contribute. Most teachers 
would be happy to use the community edition of LiveCode, so in order to make 
some money out of this, LiveCode should put together a course package, that 
could be sold at a reasonable price, either to individual teachers, to single 
schools or to groups of schools.

Educators using LiveCode could help put together such a course. The content of 
the course should be delivered as media rich content with video lessons, text 
material and sample stacks to show a variety of possible solutions. Educators 
familiar with LiveCode could also be listed as “certified” instructors. If this 
is done right, LiveCode should then be able to offer this course both with or 
without instructors.Schools and teachers will have the opportunity to decide 
whether to do this on a personal basis or as a part of the schools effort to 
enhance the skills of its teachers.

b) I also use LiveCode as the preferred tool to teach programming to our last 
year students in an upper secondary school in Norway. It is not necessary for 
the students to have any prior knowledge or experience in programming or 
coding, and only a handful of them do have such knowledge. I have found 
LiveCode to be a very good tool in this course. The main reason being that my 
students can concentrate on learning and understanding the principles behind 
programming, as they already do understand most of the basic syntax. I have 
found that LiveCode easily adapts to our national curriculum, and in some parts 
actually makes it easier for my students to perform at the highest level of 
competence, as it is described in the competence aims in the curriculum.

In my opinion LiveCode should try to put together a package of resources that 
can help teachers to use LiveCode in accordance with the competence aims of 
their respective curriculums. The resources should ideally be localised and 
presented in native language wherever possible. The content of these resources 
should be linked to the different competence aims of the curriculums, with a 
clear explanation of how different techniques demonstrates important principles 
in programming.

Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Earthednet-wp]

Another item:
I find https://www.pinterest.com to be a great resource to see what educators, 
especially in k-12 are doing. Lots of great ideas.
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 9:05 AM, Earthednet-wp  wrote:
> 
> Tore,
> Your idea has a lot of merit. In the early Apple days, HyperCard was very 
> popular with educators. It was simple and revolutionary as a programming 
> environment, and free with the computer. Livecode has the capability for this 
> now, especially with the widgets and even more with Monte's wonderful 
> additions.
> 
> I too see warning signs in the regular modifications of the payment options 
> by the mothership. We are all truly screwed if they would go under.
> 
> 

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Earthednet-wp]

Tore,
Your idea has a lot of merit. In the early Apple days, HyperCard was very 
popular with educators. It was simple and revolutionary as a programming 
environment, and free with the computer. Livecode has the capability for this 
now, especially with the widgets and even more with Monte's wonderful additions.

I too see warning signs in the regular modifications of the payment options by 
the mothership. We are all truly screwed if they would go under.

The landscape in education is quite different now, of course. I am a retired 
educator and used Director to deliver assignments where students could access 
real Earth data, write papers, review their peers' papers, see their grades, 
etc. I am currently rewriting much of that material in Livecode. My interest is 
in general education and critical thinking, rather than teaching programming. 
But the mothership could get a lot of publicity by creating a repository of 
educational apps built in livecode, indexed by subject, grade level, and (for 
the US) the common core standards. The ability to deliver these apps over a 
range of devices, including mobile and Raspberry Pi would be a huge incentive.

I can see a use for a "framework" for delivering educational apps. For example, 
is it really necessary to write a new login/password/password recovery code by 
each teacher who wants to create an assignment as part of a course? I have just 
finished a beta version of such a framework and it took me a substantial amount 
of time. Another looming issue for me is integration with Learning Management 
systems, like Moodle, which is widely used and open source. There is SCORM, 
LTI, and now "Common Cartridge". When I read the docs on these systems, my 
eyeballs roll back in my head and I know I will be taking on a huge trek into 
IT-land. Sample stacks that implemented these interfaces would be invaluable to 
higher Ed teachers, and me in particular.

What would be extremely useful to me (which is what I'm creating) would be a 
configurable login system that can respond to "anybody", "a student in a 
class", or a "teacher who registers a class that students can sign up for". 
Details like forgotten passwords and/or class registration codes need to be 
dealt with. A feature I haven't come to grips with is auto-updating of 
software, and I will need to query Richard G to sort this out. All of these 
features have been vital when I was teaching an oceanography class to 300 
students.

If there was an effort like this, I think it must be led by, or at least 
strongly managed, by those with actual experience in education, who will test 
their materials in actual learning situations. The entire effort could be a big 
undertaking.

Some ideas, off the top of my head: LC could offer some services to a volunteer 
team who would visualize and develop this with a goal of it eventually being 
incorporated into the mothership's product offering. One of my concerns is what 
will happen to my own work in the future. Life can be too short. Contributing 
to a larger effort would be satisfying. I would see it as having some of the 
ideas or features of the Khan Academy. There could be lessons on specific 
topics (programming in LC, or physics, for example) that teachers could create, 
or download, or apps that stand alone. Educator/developers could access various 
frameworks to help them get started. Perhaps there could be some way of 
rewarding developers of apps that are used widely. The mothership would provide 
a server resource to host the effort and a reasonable sized group of 
developer/educators could be formed to formulate and visualize the project.

That's it for now. Others may chime in. Perhaps there is some part of this 
vision that is shared by others. 

Best,
Bill

William Prothero
http://es.earthednet.org

> On Feb 27, 2016, at 3:38 AM, Tore Nilsen  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> 27. feb. 2016 kl. 03.35 skrev ambassa...@fourthworld.com:
>>> 
>>> Another good way to get a user base is to be available in schools.
>>> This is hard work, as network administrators, school boards, and
>>> politicians are often against all change. RunRev put a little
>>> effort into this a long time ago and I don't think they currently
>>> do anything in this regard.
>> 
>> Agreed, it is hard.
>> 
>> What specifically do you think LiveCode Ltd should be doing for greater EDU 
>> outreach?
>> 
>> And what do you think the community of educators using LC might be able to 
>> do to also further those goals?
> 
> Apologies for the length of this, but the questions raised by Richard are 
> something I have been thinking about for quite some time.
> 
> As a teacher I use LiveCode for two different purposes: 
> 
> a) As a tool to make educational software “on the fly”. I find LiveCode to be 
> an invaluable resource, if and when I encounter a situation where I can see 
> that my students will benefit from using digital learning material. I can 
> easily make an application that will 

Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Roger Guay]

I’d like to chime in here:

I love LiveCode and the folks who use, develop, produce and maintain it. I want 
them all to flourish.

I am strictly a hobbyist developer, but did have an occasion where I donated 
work to the SETI Institute (a non-profit). This was a couple of years ago when 
I could afford the lower license cost.

I understand the need for and support free community as well as pay-for 
commercial licenses. I, of course, in my situation, opt for the free.

I am willing to pay as much as $200/Yr for some kind of “hobbyist" license.

I understand that I could just donate $ to LiveCode, but I don’t think a few 
donations from the likes of me is a viable long-term solution for the company.

BTW, I have a thing about renting/subscription fees . . . I hate them!

Bottom line: I cannot afford more than $200/Yr to maintain my hobby, and sure 
as heck will not afford the coming higher, ever increasing, commercial license, 
if and when I ever encounter a need for it. I think there is an opportunity for 
LiveCode to generate a new revenue stream by offering an affordable “hobbyist” 
license . . . what ever that might be.

But then, that’s just me.


Cheers,

Roger


> On Feb 26, 2016, at 4:53 PM, Monte Goulding  wrote:
> 
> Is it people want to give the company money but don't want to do it via 
> donations as thanks for the availability of Community?

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Tore Nilsen]

> 27. feb. 2016 kl. 03.35 skrev ambassa...@fourthworld.com:
> 
>> Another good way to get a user base is to be available in schools.
>> This is hard work, as network administrators, school boards, and
>> politicians are often against all change. RunRev put a little
>> effort into this a long time ago and I don't think they currently
>> do anything in this regard.
> 
> Agreed, it is hard.
> 
> What specifically do you think LiveCode Ltd should be doing for greater EDU 
> outreach?
> 
> And what do you think the community of educators using LC might be able to do 
> to also further those goals?

Apologies for the length of this, but the questions raised by Richard are 
something I have been thinking about for quite some time.

As a teacher I use LiveCode for two different purposes: 

a) As a tool to make educational software “on the fly”. I find LiveCode to be 
an invaluable resource, if and when I encounter a situation where I can see 
that my students will benefit from using digital learning material. I can 
easily make an application that will either help my students in the process of 
understanding a particular topic, practice skills or solve problems. Since I am 
making my own pedagogical software, I can be quite certain that it will fulfil 
the needs of my students, and myself, at any given time. This is in my opinion 
a great time saver, as I do not have to spend time looking for a solution for 
my particular problem(s), only to discover, half way through the process, that 
the chosen application does not have the content or the methods I am looking 
for.

I think a lot of teachers would benefit from being able to make their own 
software. This is one area where I think LiveCode as a company should focus 
their effort and where educators using LiveCode can contribute. Most teachers 
would be happy to use the community edition of LiveCode, so in order to make 
some money out of this, LiveCode should put together a course package, that 
could be sold at a reasonable price, either to individual teachers, to single 
schools or to groups of schools.

Educators using LiveCode could help put together such a course. The content of 
the course should be delivered as media rich content with video lessons, text 
material and sample stacks to show a variety of possible solutions. Educators 
familiar with LiveCode could also be listed as “certified” instructors. If this 
is done right, LiveCode should then be able to offer this course both with or 
without instructors.Schools and teachers will have the opportunity to decide 
whether to do this on a personal basis or as a part of the schools effort to 
enhance the skills of its teachers.   

b) I also use LiveCode as the preferred tool to teach programming to our last 
year students in an upper secondary school in Norway. It is not necessary for 
the students to have any prior knowledge or experience in programming or 
coding, and only a handful of them do have such knowledge. I have found 
LiveCode to be a very good tool in this course. The main reason being that my 
students can concentrate on learning and understanding the principles behind 
programming, as they already do understand most of the basic syntax. I have 
found that LiveCode easily adapts to our national curriculum, and in some parts 
actually makes it easier for my students to perform at the highest level of 
competence, as it is described in the competence aims in the curriculum.

In my opinion LiveCode should try to put together a package of resources that 
can help teachers to use LiveCode in accordance with the competence aims of 
their respective curriculums. The resources should ideally be localised and 
presented in native language wherever possible. The content of these resources 
should be linked to the different competence aims of the curriculums, with a 
clear explanation of how different techniques demonstrates important principles 
in programming.

This is also on area where educators can help out, choosing the appropriate 
resources based on their personal knowledge off their curriculums and 
experiences as teachers. It should be possible to come up with suggested year 
plans to help teachers to use LiveCode as their preferred tool for teaching 
programming. Such plans could serve as an interactive “menu” by which the 
students could access the different resources. These resources could be 
webpages, videos, downloadable stacks, presentations and text files. 

LiveCode could sell these packages together with an Indy licence at reduced 
price for teachers, a hosting solution for schools and offer a community for 
both students and teachers alike, thereby making it possible for a wider 
network of students and teachers to collaborate. As with the course for helping 
teachers to make their own software, educators familiar with LiveCode could 
become “certified” instructors, and LiveCode could offer introduction courses 
in using LiveCode as a tool for teaching programming.

Another area 

Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Terence Heaford]

> On 27 Feb 2016, at 11:07, Dirk prive  wrote:
> 
> So for new customers in Jan 2017 the price will be over 3 times what it was
> for new customers in march 2015. I would say that is a price that goes up
> way faster than one would expect. The company knows the numbers though and
> they need to make sure that they can survive or we would no longer have a
> product.

I could well be incorrect here but it seems LiveCode are pursuing short term 
capital
by offering discounts to lock-in against future price rises.

Clearly a lock-in against future price rises only works for the purchaser if 
the product exists for as
long as the lock-in.

At which point LiveCode will have to offer another lock-in because they have 
already had the cash up front now.

Or

They come up with another money raising scheme in the meantime?

This scenario clearly does not help those who are lower down the food chain and 
aspire to own a licence.

They are really stuck with the Open Source Product in the face of continuing 
rising prices that are way beyond…

Do those that pay these prices believe that they have achieved added value 
since the cost of a licence at KickStarter or perhaps
even earlier.

In most purchases, the product is there, completed and ready to be purchased. 
It appears with this rental method you, not the company,
are paying/gambling for something in the future that has not yet been developed.


All the best



Terry



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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Dirk prive]

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Terence Heaford 
wrote:

> I would like a license with LiveCode but am not prepared to stump up
> $499/year which I believe,  is extortionate (forgive the word, but it is my
> word).
> I may be wrong but has it just gone up to $.
>


> I am sure there are those who just buy a $499 licence and really don’t
> make enough money to justify it and at some point those people will fall by
> the wayside.
> What are people willing to pay for LiveCode? $1000, $1500, $2000, $2500…..
> What has been the progression of prices in the last 5 years for an Indy
> Licence?
>

I just checked.

In March 2015 I tried to renew my commercial license, but could not because
it was replaced by the Indy license.
At that point I had to pay 299$/yr for my Indy License.

Then just 4 months later on the 29th of June I received a mail announcing
the rise in price to 499$ from July 24th.
You could avoid it by purchasing the Indy License at the special price of
499$ for 2 years of subscription and that would give you the right to buy
future Indy licenses at the price of 299$ in subsequent years. That was
presented as a "one time opportunity to protect you against this and any
future price rises as a thank you for your loyalty".

Now on Feb 18th we received the announcement of the mergEXT acquisition,
and the price increase to 999$.
The increase is phased mid-march 2016 from 499$ to 599$ and then to 999$ by
Jan 2017.

The message seems clear:

   - If you are current, stay current (that would be me).
   - If you don't subscribe yet, subscribe now to get the current price and
   keep the current price in the future (that would be 499$/yr)


So for new customers in Jan 2017 the price will be over 3 times what it was
for new customers in march 2015. I would say that is a price that goes up
way faster than one would expect. The company knows the numbers though and
they need to make sure that they can survive or we would no longer have a
product.

Kind regards,
Dirk Cleenwerck
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Dirk prive]

Hi again,

I just re-read everything I received so far and have come to the conclusion
that some things could have been communicated better by the company.

*From their mail on feb 18th.*
29 More Reasons to Celebrate 8
We are committed to delivering a quality core product that offers great
value to our paying license holders. LiveCode 8 is the future for our
platform with the new widget architecture, a brand new scripting language
and HTML5 deployment. By January 2017 the price of LiveCode Indy will rise
to $999, incrementally over the course of the next year.  Read about
LiveCode 8 and your opportunity to subscribe at today's price and lock in
tomorrows increased value *here >*


*then the mail on feb 24th.*
[Release] LiveCode 8 dp 15 Now Available


The subscription price will rise from $499 to $599 in March and to $999 by
January 2017, if you subscribe now you will keep your price at $499

 and take advantage of all the future enhancements to come.
We are committed to delivering a high quality core product providing a top
coding experience for our open source users and great value to our paying
license holders.LiveCode 8 is the future, with the new widget architecture,
a brand new scripting language and HTML5 deployment. To reflect the added
value of LiveCode 8, by January 2017 the price of LiveCode Indy will rise
to $999, incrementally over the course of the next year. Read about LiveCode
 8 and your opportunity to subscribe at today’s price, locking in
tomorrow's increased value, here.


To me it looked like I needed to subscribe now (as in take action) for 499$
to keep my price.
I guess I didn't understand all the English involved here correctly.
(sorry, English is only my third language).
I didn't understand that this didn't mean me, since I already have a
subscription.
Also the last line of the block at the bottom was critical: "Read about
LiveCode 8 and your opportunity to subscribe at today's price, locking in
tomorrow's increased value, *here*"

When I actually clicked that link and go to the bottom of the page under
FAQ:
*I have an existing LiveCode Indy subscription at a different price – will
that price be maintained? *Yes, as long as you keep your subscription
current you can continue to renew at the price you originally paid for it.
If your subscription lapses and you are ready to repurchase, you will need
to pay whatever price is current on our website to renew.

Therefore since I have an existing subscription, I just need to make sure I
keep it current and I should be fine.

So for people in the same boat as me, keep your license current and enjoy
using LiveCode at your current price.

Sorry for the noise.
Dirk Cleenwerck

PS: I still think there should be something in between community edition
and Indy for the hobby programmers, but that is a decision the company
should make. I think there is a market there, but it's up to them to decide
if they want to server that market or not. If my discussion did anything,
it was show that there are other hobby programmers out there that feel the
same way.


On Sat, Feb 27, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Curry Kenworthy  wrote:

>
> Then again there's no free lunch, as the rising paid prices demonstrate.
> That's a bit of software socialism in action, and the resulting new pricing
> widens the gap for the paid features. Now we're not just talking about
> hobbyists. The overall value of the LiveCode package also increases with
> new inclusions, no argument there, but doubling the fee for mandatory
> inclusions won't be a trivial change for some Indy coders.
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Terence Heaford]

Is the existing method working?

There always appears to be shifting sand, modifying this method for selling to 
renting, a different licence for this a different license for that, extensions 
for extra cash.

All the shifting sands suggests to me that LiveCode are not making enough.

What is enough?

Is it a reasonable salary, is it making the next corporate monolith, I don’t 
know LiveCode’s goal.

It also appears that from time to time the changing strategy seems to upset 
long standing users.

How many are upset we will never know.

I wonder what the churn rate is for LiveCode?

All I can really comment on is me and my concerns. I suppose I am what could be 
called a Hobbyist.

I arrived at LiveCodes door simply because SuperCard stopped updating.

I had a paid license with SuperCard, I think it may have been $129 when I 
started and had updated for a reduced fee but not a renting licence.

I would like a license with LiveCode but am not prepared to stump up $499/year 
which I believe,  is extortionate (forgive the word, but it is my word).
I may be wrong but has it just gone up to $.
Is this a case of more shifting sand in LiveCode’s shifting financial desert?

It may be reasonable for some/companies who make a good living from it but 
otherwise, no.

Why would I like to buy a licence rather than renting?

Simply to obtain the add-ons that I believe will be extra cost when the LC8 
widget/extension system is up and running and probably not available in the 
Open Source basic version (note I did not use lite).

Anyway it is of no real consequence because I am sat on the Open Source 
sidelines waiting to see how this Game plays out between LiveCode’s Paying 
Customers and LiveCode.

I am sure there are those who just buy a $499 licence and really don’t make 
enough money to justify it and at some point those people will fall by the 
wayside.

What are people willing to pay for LiveCode? $1000, $1500, $2000, $2500…..

What has been the progression of prices in the last 5 years for an Indy Licence?



All the best

Terry


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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Curry Kenworthy]

Howdy Folks,

This is a very interesting thread with the pricing plan changing.

LiveCode's Community Edition will fit the needs of many hobbyists 
perfectly, as others have rightly pointed out. But to be fair, it's 
unrealistic (false dichotomy) to believe that all software must be 
either commercial or open source, or that all hobbyists must produce 
only open source code. The world is not quite so simple!


I've seen many people create freeware in spare time and decide to charge 
money (or not) for some products after gaining a following or after 
having more time. The decision often comes later.


Some hobbyists are too busy with work, education, family, or health to 
launch a business at the moment. It would be silly to say that they have 
no valid interest in keeping future options available for their code if 
they wish. That's their decision, either way.


Even when money is not a goal, plenty of freeware products remain 
closed. That's why we have different names for freeware and open source. 
The web app is a good solution, but being realistic again, it won't fit 
all apps.


So if some hobbyists are worried, I understand completely! I'd say watch 
for helpful sales and lock-ins. I can't predict the future, but LiveCode 
sales have happened many times in the past, and you might even notice 
some patterns if you want to gamble on them. Key word, gamble. Locking 
in now is the safest option if you can afford it.


Worst case, you can wait and hope (and ask) for another eventual change 
in pricing strategy. Explain your situation to LiveCode and see what 
happens. Things have changed before. The company does listen when people 
reach out.


Of course the Community Edition offers a whole heck of a lot to 
hobbyists for the very low price of free, and for many of them, perhaps 
the majority, that's all they will need while tinkering to their heart's 
content or even working on what could become the next killer product!


Then again there's no free lunch, as the rising paid prices demonstrate. 
That's a bit of software socialism in action, and the resulting new 
pricing widens the gap for the paid features. Now we're not just talking 
about hobbyists. The overall value of the LiveCode package also 
increases with new inclusions, no argument there, but doubling the fee 
for mandatory inclusions won't be a trivial change for some Indy coders.


I often talk to startups and smaller established companies with pretty 
tight budgets, and it's an easy conclusion that some folks would better 
afford an option like the current Indy price with fewer new inclusions. 
There's no doubt that some potential customers will be lost under the 
new pricing, but that's up to LiveCode to weigh the pros and cons, and 
it'll be interesting to see how this works out.


BTW, as my sudden appearance here may cause ripples in the pond, I'll 
pre-answer: I'm working on SpreadLib at the moment; it and WordLib have 
updates coming up soon, involving SpreadOut and WordOut features among 
other things. The FieldTrip update will be after them, and who knows, I 
may have something else up my sleeve for this year besides those. :)


My wonderful clients keep me pretty busy, so if you don't see me talking 
here on the list for a little while, you'll know that I'm layin' down 
some code in serious quantities. But just like Arnold, "I'll be back" 
here pretty soon! I hope everyone is having an excellent year so far.


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy
--
WordLib: Import MS Word and OpenOffice documents
http://curryk.com/wordlib.html

Need custom software development or LiveCode help?
http://curryk.com/consulting/



Matt Maier:
> you could host the software as a web app

hh:
>> you would like to share the code with some people only, not with all.
>> And at the same time you are willing to share your product with all,
>> for free.

Matt Maier:
>>> But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you distribute,
>>> why would you need to close the source?


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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[[-hh]]

> Monte wrote:
> Apples/oranges you are comparing proprietary extensions with something created
> just for the fun of it with no intent to commercialise. Cheers Monte
> Sent from my iPhone
> > hh wrote:
> > Why are you hiding your externals code? Could it be that a simple 
> > student who has a good idea, wants to hide his code, may be only for a 
> > while, for similar reasons? 

You may be right at your current level of thinking.
Now try to think one more level abstract: Apples and oranges are both fruits.

A good idea and good code doesn't depend on the proprietary state while
working for that. So, why can a student/hobbyist who has a good idea not
have the same reasoning as you for hiding such code? He may buy the cheap/
affordable proprietary state to hide it (for a while, until he can afford
the more expensive offers)?

hh
NOT sent from anybodys iPhone
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Monte Goulding]

Apples/oranges you are comparing proprietary extensions with something created 
just for the fun of it with no intent to commercialise.

Cheers

Monte

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Feb 2016, at 11:17 AM, [-hh]  wrote:
> 
> Why are you hiding your externals code? Could it be that a simple
> student who has a good idea, wants to hide his code, may be only for a
> while, for similar reasons?

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[ambassador]

Mark Schonewille wrote:


Another good way to get a user base is to be available in schools.
This is hard work, as network administrators, school boards, and
politicians are often against all change. RunRev put a little
effort into this a long time ago and I don't think they currently
do anything in this regard.


Agreed, it is hard.

What specifically do you think LiveCode Ltd should be doing for greater 
EDU outreach?


And what do you think the community of educators using LC might be able 
to do to also further those goals?


--
Richard Gaskin
Fourth World Systems
Software Design and Development for Desktop, Mobile, and Web

ambassa...@fourthworld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com



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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Kay C Lan]

OK I'm completely confused. I'd like to suggest it's my inability to grasp
the English language but I read some of these post over and over and I
can't just come to any other conclusion the world has turned upside down.

Way back people were complaining that Revolution was too expensive. The
company listened and gave as FREE Community LiveCode. What a hobbyist's
dream. Now people are complain that they can't pay for it

Have no influence??? The Company regularly puts out surveys so that users
can have their say. And they clearly listen.

You want to pay to have influence I thought that is exactly what the
Feature Exchange programme was ALL about. Forget democracy, where the
previous surveys were being used to drive the direction of LiveCode based
on hard numbers within the community needing certain features; lets let
money do the talking and bring a few features straight to the top of the
list. I donated a little to the OS X 64 Bit but THANK YOU Todd Fabacher for
really making that happen.

Now that I think about it, the world isn't upside down it's perfectly
the same. You just can't please everyone and some people just have to
complain about something... surprised our List curmudgeon hasn't made an
appearance (I hope he's OK):

Didn't cater for hobbyists - restructured the pricing policy
Still too expensive -> now a free community version
The company doesn't listen -> regular surveys
Too buggy -> the late great Bill Marriott and his legacy of a better QCC
mobile support - we have it
Needs to be brought into the future - LC 8 will take us there
Needs to happen faster -> Kickstarter did that
Needs to happen even faster -> Feature Exchange does that
We're kept in the dark -> newsletters, now blog posts
The company doesn't listen -> team members EVERY DAY posting to this List
LiveCode needs this feature or that feature -> it's open source, go ahead
and add it yourself... deathly silence

To the team members, as I know you are reading, please understand that the
world is OK and your doing a GREAT JOB!
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[[-hh]]

> Monte wrote:
> > On 27 Feb 2016, at 9:28 AM, [-hh]  wrote:
> > Build on the next generation, who will become decision maker in a few
> > years. And, if they *know* the software, may also become possible
> > buyers of LC-related products:
> > Give teachers and their students in class FREE copies.
> > Give university students and hobbyists very cheap copies.
> 
> Which out of these groups isn't covered by LiveCode Community? Clearly 
> Indy has a target market of developers earning or planning to earn at 
> least enough to justify the cost. I'm not really sure I understand the 
> issue here. Is it people want to give the company money but don't want 
> to do it via donations as thanks for the availability of Community?
> Cheers Monte


There is an education category (and LiveCode Teacher Pack) of products.
You can read that on the Livecode webpages, here the link :-)
http://livecode.com

hh

p.s. Why are you hiding your externals code? Could it be that a simple
student who has a good idea, wants to hide his code, may be only for a
while, for similar reasons?


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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Roland Huettmann]

Donation are ok and all other variants of raising money too in my opinion.
Also the free community version was needed which was a must-have because it
protects investment to some degree, and the market required it.

The question - as I interpret some contributions here - is more about the
"how" and an even more visible strategy and clarity and justification of
fees, and of course the desired pushing-out of the product.

Cheers, Roland
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Dirk prive]

Maybe something along the line of as paying license customers we can have
some expectations/influence. For instance I would like Android support on
par with iOS support. As someone that just donated once, I feel like I have
no voice, since I'm not a customer. And yes Android support has been a
driving motivator for me.

Dirk Cleenwerck.
On Feb 27, 2016 01:21, "Monte Goulding"  wrote:

>
> > On 27 Feb 2016, at 9:28 AM, [-hh]  wrote:
> >
> > Build on the next generation, who will become decision maker in a few
> > years. And, if they *know* the software, may also become possible
> > buyers of LC-related products:
> > Give teachers and their students in class FREE copies.
> > Give university students and hobbyists very cheap copies.
>
> Which out of these groups isn't covered by LiveCode Community? Clearly
> Indy has a target market of developers earning or planning to earn at least
> enough to justify the cost. I'm not really sure I understand the issue
> here. Is it people want to give the company money but don't want to do it
> via donations as thanks for the availability of Community?
>
> Cheers
>
> Monte
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Monte Goulding]

> On 27 Feb 2016, at 9:28 AM, [-hh]  wrote:
> 
> Build on the next generation, who will become decision maker in a few
> years. And, if they *know* the software, may also become possible
> buyers of LC-related products:
> Give teachers and their students in class FREE copies.
> Give university students and hobbyists very cheap copies.

Which out of these groups isn't covered by LiveCode Community? Clearly Indy has 
a target market of developers earning or planning to earn at least enough to 
justify the cost. I'm not really sure I understand the issue here. Is it people 
want to give the company money but don't want to do it via donations as thanks 
for the availability of Community?

Cheers

Monte
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Roland Huettmann]

There is no need for code protection for hobbyists.

But why not have a budget offer for some benefit? Simple, straightforward,
and not just a donation. Whether is it worth the effort now, I also do not
know.

The idea behind is still to help development which is never for free, but
not to ask for amounts hobbyists will never usually pay.

Roland
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Matt Maier]

Okay, I think I follow that. It seems like a very specific case in that you
could just not share the software publically and then there's no conflict.
It sounds like the public use of the compiled software is a nice-to-have.

Maybe in the case that you want to let the world use the software in its
compiled form, but only share the source with a few individuals, you could
host the software as a web app. That way people could interact with it
without ever needing a copy. You could also pay Livecode to host the web
app, thus sending some money their way at the same time.

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 3:59 PM, [-hh]  wrote:

> > Matt M. wrote:
> > But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you distribute,
> > why would you need to close the source?
>
> Because, not always but sometimes, you would like to share the code
> with some people only, not with all.
> And at the same time you are willing to share your product with all,
> for free.
>
> Code has also an immaterial value.
>
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Roland Huettmann]

Yes, Matt, I have no problem with open source, especially not in those
areas you point too, and I also said it. I share my code, why not?

Personally I am fine with the free version license until a professional
need arises and I would be confident enough to allow for professional work.
And then paying for support is natural.

I also contributed paying and testing on a limited scale.

Is it acceptable to say that I can not yet see a consistent business model
and enough resources driving LiveCode to where it must be to survive in the
long run considering the complex world of "being public" and attracting big
market players?

Maybe I am wrong and miss the points already being cooked out. It is more a
reflection of current observations.

I assume that with version 8 rolling out such breakthrough might be
possible.

Just, it seems there are also hurt feelings amongst some developers. To
understand and recognize is important.

The way the new license was announced I also did not reflect only in a
positive way. Actually most people care and pay for results, not how many
hours were needed to develop. And it is premature to raise pricing before a
version has passed the test of the light of the day. But that is to be
considered by license holders and the company for now.

Many more people are needed to push such product. Sure - thinking of
genuine solutions made with LiveCode hitting the attention of the market is
the most convincing way to go. I agree.

Roland

On Sat, Feb 27, 2016, 12:37 AM Matt Maier  wrote:

> I'm still not clear on how the community edition of Livecode isn't
> sufficient for hobby purposes. It's got tons of functionality, and it's
> free, and the main restriction is that anything you distribute has to be
> licensed GPL. But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you
> distribute, why would you need to close the source?
>
> If you just want to help support Livecode with money you can always donate
> to them, or you could publicize your cool projects to get more visibility
> for Livecode and more developers to try it. In fact, distributing
> interesting projects open source is a great way to get more developers to
> try Livecode. Whereas paying Livecode a modest subscription, so that you
> can distributed closed source, doesn't help nearly as much.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 2:58 PM, [-hh]  wrote:
>
> > Really good points, Roland.
> >
> > Let me add explicitly this one.
> >
> > Build on the next generation, who will become decision maker in a few
> > years. And, if they *know* the software, may also become possible
> > buyers of LC-related products:
> > Give teachers and their students in class FREE copies.
> > Give university students and hobbyists very cheap copies.
> >
> > If the company continues to have such crazy pricing strategies as now
> > then it will loose in sum: The negative income by people "jumping off"
> > will be greater than the additional positive income by raised prices.
> >
> > For example I went with backing nearly everything in the last three
> > years already over my limits: An Indy license, a community membership
> > (who of the writers here has also one?), an additional HTML5 license,
> > a lot of time wasted for beta-testing. I'm hobbyist, sell nothing ...
> >
> > The next "pricing game" will force me to jump off. And jumping off will
> > mean to jump off by 100%, in anger, not only partially.
> >
> > And certainly I'm not the only one who works for no money, pays only
> > to support LC. The current pricing strategy becomes aggressive against
> > this group of users.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Monte Goulding]

You might need to fill in some blanks for me on why that is important for a 
hobbyist? I would say one feature of a hobbyist with a budget market license 
could be no code protection so it's an important point to clarify.

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Feb 2016, at 10:29 AM, [-hh]  wrote:
> 
> Because, not always but sometimes, you would like to share the code
> with some people only, not with all.
> And at the same time you are willing to share your product with all,
> for free.

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[[-hh]]

> Matt M. wrote:
> But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you distribute,
> why would you need to close the source?

Because, not always but sometimes, you would like to share the code
with some people only, not with all.
And at the same time you are willing to share your product with all,
for free.

Code has also an immaterial value.

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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Matt Maier]

I'm still not clear on how the community edition of Livecode isn't
sufficient for hobby purposes. It's got tons of functionality, and it's
free, and the main restriction is that anything you distribute has to be
licensed GPL. But, if you're a hobbyist, and not charging for what you
distribute, why would you need to close the source?

If you just want to help support Livecode with money you can always donate
to them, or you could publicize your cool projects to get more visibility
for Livecode and more developers to try it. In fact, distributing
interesting projects open source is a great way to get more developers to
try Livecode. Whereas paying Livecode a modest subscription, so that you
can distributed closed source, doesn't help nearly as much.



On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 2:58 PM, [-hh]  wrote:

> Really good points, Roland.
>
> Let me add explicitly this one.
>
> Build on the next generation, who will become decision maker in a few
> years. And, if they *know* the software, may also become possible
> buyers of LC-related products:
> Give teachers and their students in class FREE copies.
> Give university students and hobbyists very cheap copies.
>
> If the company continues to have such crazy pricing strategies as now
> then it will loose in sum: The negative income by people "jumping off"
> will be greater than the additional positive income by raised prices.
>
> For example I went with backing nearly everything in the last three
> years already over my limits: An Indy license, a community membership
> (who of the writers here has also one?), an additional HTML5 license,
> a lot of time wasted for beta-testing. I'm hobbyist, sell nothing ...
>
> The next "pricing game" will force me to jump off. And jumping off will
> mean to jump off by 100%, in anger, not only partially.
>
> And certainly I'm not the only one who works for no money, pays only
> to support LC. The current pricing strategy becomes aggressive against
> this group of users.
>
>
>
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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[[-hh]]

Really good points, Roland.

Let me add explicitly this one.

Build on the next generation, who will become decision maker in a few
years. And, if they *know* the software, may also become possible
buyers of LC-related products:
Give teachers and their students in class FREE copies.
Give university students and hobbyists very cheap copies.

If the company continues to have such crazy pricing strategies as now
then it will loose in sum: The negative income by people "jumping off" will be 
greater than the additional positive income by raised prices.

For example I went with backing nearly everything in the last three
years already over my limits: An Indy license, a community membership
(who of the writers here has also one?), an additional HTML5 license,
a lot of time wasted for beta-testing. I'm hobbyist, sell nothing ...

The next "pricing game" will force me to jump off. And jumping off will
mean to jump off by 100%, in anger, not only partially.

And certainly I'm not the only one who works for no money, pays only
to support LC. The current pricing strategy becomes aggressive against
this group of users.



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Re: LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Mark Schonewille]

A good way to grow the community is to give something away for free. 
That's what RunRev has done by open-sourcing. I'm not sure this was a 
good strategic move as far as earning are concerned, but it was 
definitely a good way to attract more users.


It is also necessary to be present in tech news media all the time. Have 
a special offer every month, make big announcements about new features, 
get attention from important sites like MacWorld and magazines like Time 
and WSJ and obviously news papers. The company isn't doing this.


Another good way to get a user base is to be available in schools. This 
is hard work, as network administrators, school boards, and politicians 
are often against all change. RunRev put a little effort into this a 
long time ago and I don't think they currently do anything in this regard.


Also, when I visit the homepage and surf around a little, I can't find 
any information about HTML5 whatsoever.


Kind regards,

Mark Schonewille
http://economy-x-talk.com
https://www.facebook.com/marksch

Buy the most extensive book on the
LiveCode language:
http://livecodebeginner.economy-x-talk.com

Op 2/26/2016 om 22:45 schreef Roland Huettmann:

The disussion comes from
  (taken from: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?)

Dirk Prive:

"I think the lack of interest in supporting the hobby programmers will hurt
the company in the not too distant future. As a hobby user myself I have
paid for a license for a long long time. "

  "Ok, since I see that my point was hard to understand, I'll try to make it
a
bit more clear."

I would be willing to pay about 300$/year to have a hobby programming tool.
I think that is good money the company could use. I don't expect some pro
features, for instance HTML, iOS,.."

... and following discussion



I think the discussion turned a bit off-subject in the "Re: Players in
HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?" thread.

Why would it not be a nice idea to have another option for 10-20 dollars a
month for all those who can not afford the Indy license because either they
do not need it, or / and it is too much for a hobby - which is
understandable?

Maybe there could be some continued benefit attached to such small but
ongoing monthly payments? Here there is usually no need for a
code-protected version. Benefits could be something different.

The bigger question remains, how to support LiveCode to grow to where it
wants to be?

I like the idea better to receive 10 dollars a month from 10,000 users
compared to receiving 1,000 dollars a year from 100 users. But that could
all be segmented and be very transparent and easy to understand for
everyone, so both concepts could work hand-in-hand.

And who is not paying 10 dollars for a nice cake?

Why was something like "Skype" not made using LiveCode? ))) There are
products out in the market making money - even without nasty ads popping up
all the time.

Or there could just be one big company paying for a single continued ad
(placed without obstructing) sponsoring LiveCode to grow fast and above
limits. (There are dozens of ideas here.) I think LiveCode could qualify.
And when I look at all the super multi millions of dollars spent for crazy
ads then this could also be a good investment for a selected advertiser.
Sponsoring does not have to be annoying and would be very effective for
both sides and us.

I am just trying to think out of the box.

How would LiveCode grow fast enough? By itself? Just because it is a nice
fun product for us users, hobbyists, students, and developers? Is it enough
looking around watching a rough sea?

Roland



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LiveCode for the Hobbyists

[Roland Huettmann]

The disussion comes from
 (taken from: Players in HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?)

Dirk Prive:

"I think the lack of interest in supporting the hobby programmers will hurt
the company in the not too distant future. As a hobby user myself I have
paid for a license for a long long time. "

 "Ok, since I see that my point was hard to understand, I'll try to make it
a
bit more clear."

I would be willing to pay about 300$/year to have a hobby programming tool.
I think that is good money the company could use. I don't expect some pro
features, for instance HTML, iOS,.."

... and following discussion



I think the discussion turned a bit off-subject in the "Re: Players in
HTML5 - ETA for Full Functionality?" thread.

Why would it not be a nice idea to have another option for 10-20 dollars a
month for all those who can not afford the Indy license because either they
do not need it, or / and it is too much for a hobby - which is
understandable?

Maybe there could be some continued benefit attached to such small but
ongoing monthly payments? Here there is usually no need for a
code-protected version. Benefits could be something different.

The bigger question remains, how to support LiveCode to grow to where it
wants to be?

I like the idea better to receive 10 dollars a month from 10,000 users
compared to receiving 1,000 dollars a year from 100 users. But that could
all be segmented and be very transparent and easy to understand for
everyone, so both concepts could work hand-in-hand.

And who is not paying 10 dollars for a nice cake?

Why was something like "Skype" not made using LiveCode? ))) There are
products out in the market making money - even without nasty ads popping up
all the time.

Or there could just be one big company paying for a single continued ad
(placed without obstructing) sponsoring LiveCode to grow fast and above
limits. (There are dozens of ideas here.) I think LiveCode could qualify.
And when I look at all the super multi millions of dollars spent for crazy
ads then this could also be a good investment for a selected advertiser.
Sponsoring does not have to be annoying and would be very effective for
both sides and us.

I am just trying to think out of the box.

How would LiveCode grow fast enough? By itself? Just because it is a nice
fun product for us users, hobbyists, students, and developers? Is it enough
looking around watching a rough sea?

Roland
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