Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-17 Thread Bob Sneidar
I don't think they contradict at all. The likelyhood of someone having already 
read much of what was quoted in an ongoing thread is high, but it is certainly 
not absolute. I may have been following the thread with great interest, while 
you may have just gotten back from vacation and begun to read your email, or 
you may have been ignoring it for a time, and decided to catch up on it. 

The confusion comes in when you try to apply the reading of an email to one 
single person at a time, and then of course it has to be either or. 

But I feel I am beating a dead horse here. This has all been gone over and 
over, and nobody is going to change their minds about how things ought to be. 
Heck, if people were capable of that we might have peace in our time! :-)

Bob


On Jul 16, 2012, at 6:52 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

 Bob-
 
 Monday, July 16, 2012, 10:45:55 AM, you wrote:
 
 Because the reply is not to only one person. Some may not have
 read any of the topic, others may have read everything about it.
 
 That seems to contradict your other statement that
 
 In reading a book, the presumption is that you haven't read any of
 it before. When reading replies to email, the presumption is the
 opposite.


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread Pierre Sahores
Have a nice week, dear LC fellows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=GBaHPND2QJgfeature=youtu.be
--
Pierre Sahores
mobile : 06 03 95 77 70
www.sahores-conseil.com


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread André Bisseret

Le 16 juil. 2012 à 09:34, Pierre Sahores a écrit :

 Have a nice week, dear LC fellows...
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=GBaHPND2QJgfeature=youtu.be
 --
 Pierre Sahores
 mobile : 06 03 95 77 70
 www.sahores-conseil.com

Thanks you much Pierre ; magnifique and very moving ;-)

André
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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread Graham Samuel

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 11:15:36 +0200, André Bisseret andre.bisse...@wanadoo.fr 
wrote:

 
 Le 16 juil. 2012 ? 09:34, Pierre Sahores a ?crit :
 
 Have a nice week, dear LC fellows...
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=GBaHPND2QJgfeature=youtu.be
 --
 Pierre Sahores
 mobile : 06 03 95 77 70
 www.sahores-conseil.com
 
 Thanks you much Pierre ; magnifique and very moving ;-)
 
 André

Seconded! Surprisingly moving. Thanks again.

Graham

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread Peter Haworth
Great way to start the week!  Thanks Pierre.
Pete
lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com



On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Pierre Sahores 
s...@sahores-conseil.comwrote:

 Have a nice week, dear LC fellows...

 http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=GBaHPND2QJgfeature=youtu.be
 --
 Pierre Sahores
 mobile : 06 03 95 77 70
 www.sahores-conseil.com


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread Bob Sneidar
Must disagree with the comparison. In reading a book, the presumption is that 
you haven't read any of it before. When reading replies to email, the 
presumption is the opposite. Everything breaks down on that point. 

Bob


On Jul 15, 2012, at 10:51 AM, Mark Wieder wrote:

 Colin-
 
 Sunday, July 15, 2012, 10:02:30 AM, you wrote:
 
 For desktop use it doesn't matter much, but for mobile use it
 makes a slight difference. Given that top posting isn't such a big
 thing to cope with on desktop, I just suffer the requests from my
 colleagues, and top post instead, so that mobile users are happier.
 
 Do you read books from end to beginning also? It's so much tidier that
 way. Since you already know the ending you can stop reading when you
 get tired or get bogged down on the big words.
 
 -- 
 -Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net
 
 
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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread Bob Sneidar
Because the reply is not to only one person. Some may not have read any of the 
topic, others may have read everything about it. Regardless of any RFC's, I 
always think in terms of what suits most situations most of the time. I have a 
young tech here who is constantly quoting best practices. If we put all best 
practices into practice, we would have to spend a ton of money, and hire a 
couple more IT people. And what would we gain for all of that? Precisely 
nothing. What we have works for what we do. 

Life is much simpler when you think like that. 

Bob


On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

 Colin-
 
 Sunday, July 15, 2012, 11:13:17 AM, you wrote:
 
 I understand the logic of bottom posting, but the issue of mobile
 users and Mail previews does make top posting useful.
 
 I was about to agree with this, but I'm not sure. If the aim is so
 that mobile users can get the gist of the topic without having to wade
 through everything that's gone before, why quote at all? Instead of
 top-posting, why not just reply?

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread J. Landman Gay

On 7/16/12 2:34 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote:

Have a nice week, dear LC fellows...

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=GBaHPND2QJgfeature=youtu.be


Marvelous!! Thank you.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread Peter M. Brigham
On Jul 15, 2012, at 4:44 PM, Dr. Hawkins wrote:

 And who authors this particular RFC?
 
 And who authors this particulate RFC?
 
 OK - now I'm totally lost in the recursion.
 
 The Recursion Facilitation Committee wins again!

Circular definition: see Definition, circular.

-- Peter

Peter M. Brigham
pmb...@gmail.com
http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-16 Thread Bob Sneidar
But that just leads me right back to where I...   OH RIGHT!

Bob


On Jul 16, 2012, at 3:04 PM, Peter M. Brigham wrote:

 On Jul 15, 2012, at 4:44 PM, Dr. Hawkins wrote:
 
 And who authors this particular RFC?
 
 And who authors this particulate RFC?
 
 OK - now I'm totally lost in the recursion.
 
 The Recursion Facilitation Committee wins again!
 
 Circular definition: see Definition, circular.
 
 -- Peter
 
 Peter M. Brigham
 pmb...@gmail.com
 http://home.comcast.net/~pmbrig
 
 
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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Colin Holgate
I would routinely quote the relevant part of the message and then add my 
comment afterwards, but my colleagues using mobile devices would complain 
because they would have to fully open the email to see what I had added. So, 
now I say my comment ahead of the quoted text. If there are further comments to 
make I will quote the relevant part of the previous message, after my new 
comment.

In general, just quote enough of the previous message to make it clear what you 
are adding. In this case I didn't need to quote anything.


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Warren Samples

On 07/15/2012 10:59 AM, Colin Holgate wrote:

I would routinely quote the relevant part of the message and then add my 
comment afterwards, but my colleagues using mobile devices would complain 
because they would have to fully open the email to see what I had added. So, 
now I say my comment ahead of the quoted text. If there are further comments to 
make I will quote the relevant part of the previous message, after my new 
comment.

In general, just quote enough of the previous message to make it clear what you 
are adding. In this case I didn't need to quote anything.


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It wasn't all that long ago that this topic was explored here, was it? I 
disagree that interspersing response, point by point, within the body of 
the original message is more readable, even though I understand the 
argument and agree that it has merit. It can become downright 
crazy-making after a few levels of reply. I am of the camp that suggests 
it's most sensible to reply after the original message (seems logical, 
doesn't it?) although I see what Colin is talking about and have to 
admit I had never thought of that, but I don't bother with email on my 
phone at all.


Warren


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Dr. Hawkins
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Richmond richmondmathew...@gmail.com wrote:
 Which is better:
...
 3. To comment intertextually so that comments sit next to
  the parts of the previous message they are directly relevant to?

 I favour #3, because, like comments in code/scripting it is easy for a
 reader to see to what
 a comment refers.

It's not simply favored, but correct.  It's even in the RFCs.

Top-posting was largely unknown until the eternal september, at which
point we couldn't assimilate the newbies fast enough.

There are a couple of uncommon exceptions, such as please review the
following, but outside of them, it's not a matter of preference, but
correct or incorrect.



-- 
The Hawkins Law Firm
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
hawkinslawf...@gmail.com
3025 S. Maryland Parkway
Suite A
Las Vegas, NV  89109

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Peter Haworth
And who is the arbiter of correct or incorrect?
Pete
lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com



On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Dr. Hawkins doch...@gmail.com wrote:

 There are a couple of uncommon exceptions, such as please review the
 following, but outside of them, it's not a matter of preference, but
 correct or incorrect.

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Colin Holgate
I was able to open your message, and scroll down eventually to see what you had 
added…

For desktop use it doesn't matter much, but for mobile use it makes a slight 
difference. Given that top posting isn't such a big thing to cope with on 
desktop, I just suffer the requests from my colleagues, and top post instead, 
so that mobile users are happier. In fact, under OSX Mail it's nice that I can 
see the new information in the message preview lines, without having to open 
the message.

On Jul 15, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Warren Samples war...@warrensweb.us wrote:

 I am of the camp that suggests it's most sensible to reply after the 
 original message (seems logical, doesn't it?) although I see what Colin is 
 talking about and have to admit I had never thought of that, but I don't 
 bother with email on my phone at all.

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Richmond

On 07/15/2012 07:34 PM, Peter Haworth wrote:

And who is the arbiter of correct or incorrect?
Pete
lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com



Nobody, and any idea of 'incorrect' or 'correct' is hugely subjective.

However, to arrive at a general consensus might not be a bad thing.



On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Dr. Hawkins doch...@gmail.com wrote:


There are a couple of uncommon exceptions, such as please review the
following, but outside of them, it's not a matter of preference, but
correct or incorrect.


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread J. Landman Gay

On 7/15/12 12:27 PM, Richmond wrote:


Nobody, and any idea of 'incorrect' or 'correct' is hugely subjective.

However, to arrive at a general consensus might not be a bad thing.


Bottom posting has largely been the standard here forever. The people 
who top post are few. I prefer reading the discussion in logical order, 
and bottom posting allows us to intersperse comments that are relevant 
to each quoted piece. I also prefer that the original text is trimmed to 
a representative statement. And in all cases, bar none, all the nested 
signature lines should be removed.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com



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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Colin-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 10:02:30 AM, you wrote:

 For desktop use it doesn't matter much, but for mobile use it
 makes a slight difference. Given that top posting isn't such a big
 thing to cope with on desktop, I just suffer the requests from my
 colleagues, and top post instead, so that mobile users are happier.

Do you read books from end to beginning also? It's so much tidier that
way. Since you already know the ending you can stop reading when you
get tired or get bogged down on the big words.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Pete-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 9:34:19 AM, you wrote:

 And who is the arbiter of correct or incorrect?

By definition, the RFCs.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Colin Holgate
You make a good point, and I do like efficiency. Turns out, Darth was Luke's 
father, no need to read the earlier bits.

On Jul 15, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote:

 Since you already know the ending you can stop reading when you
 get tired or get bogged down on the big words.

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Richmond

On 07/15/2012 08:51 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

Colin-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 10:02:30 AM, you wrote:


For desktop use it doesn't matter much, but for mobile use it
makes a slight difference. Given that top posting isn't such a big
thing to cope with on desktop, I just suffer the requests from my
colleagues, and top post instead, so that mobile users are happier.

Do you read books from end to beginning also? It's so much tidier that
way. Since you already know the ending you can stop reading when you
get tired or get bogged down on the big words.



LOL!

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Doc-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 9:23:46 AM, you wrote:

 I favour #3, because, like comments in code/scripting it is easy for a
 reader to see to what
 a comment refers.

 It's not simply favored, but correct.  It's even in the RFCs.

True, but as with everything else, the real-world answer is it
depends. I rarely top-post, but there are exceptions. I almost always
bottom post and include just the relevant part of the thread to which
I am replying to give some context. If I'm responding to a long email
with several cogent points I may:

 1. intersperse my comments, allowing my email client to add the
 prefix of  to the original text
 2. reply to salient points with several email responses
 3. ignore the whole thing and move on

Hint: using the standard (correct) signature delimiter of
-- 
(that's dash-dash-space on a line by itself)
will allow email clients to truncate messages properly. See below.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Richmond

On 07/15/2012 08:52 PM, Mark Wieder wrote:

Pete-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 9:34:19 AM, you wrote:


And who is the arbiter of correct or incorrect?

By definition, the RFCs.



The Rugby Football Clubs ???

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Warren Samples

On 07/15/2012 12:49 PM, J. Landman Gay wrote:

And in all cases, bar none, all the nested signature lines should be
removed.




I try to do that and note with some chagrin that I failed in my previous 
reply to this thread :D


Warren

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Richmond-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 11:01:31 AM, you wrote:

 The Rugby Football Clubs ???

One and the same. Don't mess with them. They know what's best.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Colin-

Top-posting, I mean.
It's just like that.
Don't you?
I so like it when the punchline precedes the joke.

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 10:56:35 AM, you wrote:

 You make a good point, and I do like efficiency. Turns out, Darth
 was Luke's father, no need to read the earlier bits.

 On Jul 15, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote:

 Since you already know the ending you can stop reading when you
 get tired or get bogged down on the big words.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Richard Gaskin

A post tells a story.

Conceivably, all stories could begin with the Big Bang, but for most 
stories the very beginning of all things isn't relevant to the point, so 
the storyteller trims the telling to the relevant parts.


With posts, I find it easier to read them when they're pruned to include 
only the relevant portion of the preceding comment.


If the author made a mistake and pruned too much, or I just want some 
further background on the top, the archives are always just one click away.


As for order, Citizen Kane and some other good stories are told well 
starting with the ending.  But few stories benefit from that.  I prefer 
to read a reply which includes the portion being replied to before the 
reply itself.


This also makes it easier to exercise judgement about pruning, since of 
course we want the reader to be able to move past the old stuff and get 
to the new stuff as soon as practical for the communication at hand.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Peter Haworth
And who authors this particular RFC?
Pete
lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com



On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.netwrote:

 Pete-

 Sunday, July 15, 2012, 9:34:19 AM, you wrote:

  And who is the arbiter of correct or incorrect?

 By definition, the RFCs.


 And who authors this particular RFC?

And who authors this particulate RFC?
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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Peter Haworth
Sorry but it's a sad state of affairs when there's an RFC for how to reply
to emails.
Pete
lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com



On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.netwrote:

 Pete-

 Sunday, July 15, 2012, 9:34:19 AM, you wrote:

  And who is the arbiter of correct or incorrect?

 By definition, the RFCs.

 --
 -Mark Wieder
  mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Colin Holgate
That made me laugh so hard, and then I went on to read it.

I understand the logic of bottom posting, but the issue of mobile users and 
Mail previews does make top posting useful.


On Jul 15, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote:

 Top-posting, I mean.
 It's just like that.
 Don't you?
 I so like it when the punchline precedes the joke.

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Richmond

On 07/15/2012 09:13 PM, Colin Holgate wrote:

That made me laugh so hard, and then I went on to read it.

I understand the logic of bottom posting, but the issue of mobile users and 
Mail previews does make top posting useful.



Surely there is a terminological hiatus here, and to avoid ambiguity we 
should be talking about


preposting, postposting and inposting (or, possibly, imposting).

-

However, a small boy who attends my English school told me the reason he 
had not brought the letter
he was writing was because it was in his grandmother [this being a 
literal translation of the
way Bulgarian's say at Granny's house]; needless to say I used that 
wonderful opportunity to discuss

the topic of bottom posting and its effect on kids' grades.

-

When I was working at St Andrews there was a golf story going the rounds 
(I mean, why not, at St Andrews ???):


3 American golfers and a wee Scots lad to carry their golf bags.

1. Boy hears a mobile phone ringing; chap starts talking to his hand: 
other chap explains

he has a phone embedded in his hand.

2. Boy hears a mobile phone ringing; chap starts talking to himself: 
other chap explains

he has a phone embedded inside his head.

3. 3rd American runs into the bushes and drops his trousers/pants: other 
chap explains,


He's just downloading some software.

Q.E.D. I rest my case.


On Jul 15, 2012, at 2:06 PM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote:


Top-posting, I mean.
It's just like that.
Don't you?
I so like it when the punchline precedes the joke.

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Dr. Hawkins
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 9:34 AM, Peter Haworth p...@lcsql.com wrote:
 And who is the arbiter of correct or incorrect?
 Pete

The folks who built the whole infrastructure, set the standard, and
the wrote the RFC that specified the correct usage.

Trimming  quoting to respond wasn't simply most, but universal
until eternal september overran the place.


-- 
The Hawkins Law Firm
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
hawkinslawf...@gmail.com
3025 S. Maryland Parkway
Suite A
Las Vegas, NV  89109

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Pete-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 11:10:22 AM, you wrote:

 And who authors this particular RFC?
 Pete
 lcSQL Software http://www.lcsql.com



 On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.netwrote:

 Pete-

 Sunday, July 15, 2012, 9:34:19 AM, you wrote:

  And who is the arbiter of correct or incorrect?

 By definition, the RFCs.


 And who authors this particular RFC?

 And who authors this particulate RFC?

OK - now I'm totally lost in the recursion.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Colin-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 11:13:17 AM, you wrote:

 I understand the logic of bottom posting, but the issue of mobile
 users and Mail previews does make top posting useful.

I was about to agree with this, but I'm not sure. If the aim is so
that mobile users can get the gist of the topic without having to wade
through everything that's gone before, why quote at all? Instead of
top-posting, why not just reply?

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Thomas McGrath III
I read books front to back but I read magazines from back to front. But then if 
I find a decent article I then read that front to back.

I like posts at the top and posts at the bottom but I hate posts in the middle. 
Yet I have done all of these. 

I love this thread.


-- Tom McGrath III
http://lazyriver.on-rev.com
3mcgr...@comcast.net
 


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Colin Holgate
That would be the ideal case of top posting. The reader will get the message 
right away, and can open the message, or scroll further down, if they need 
reminding about the context.


On Jul 15, 2012, at 3:51 PM, Mark Wieder mwie...@ahsoftware.net wrote:

 If the aim is so
 that mobile users can get the gist of the topic without having to wade
 through everything that's gone before, why quote at all? Instead of
 top-posting, why not just reply?

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Monte Goulding
Does anyone know of an iOS email client that's designed to bottom post? I hate 
top posting myself but most of my list responses these days are from the phone 
which seems to want to make bottom posting difficult. Why would apple design a 
desktop client that puts the signature at the bottom and a mobile one that puts 
the signature at the top?

Cheers

Monte
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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Monte Goulding
Cool, just found a feature I didn't know about. If you select text then reply 
only the selected text is included. Now of there were a setting to insert the 
text at the top I'd be happy.

Cheers

--
M E R Goulding
Software development services

mergExt - There's an external for that!

On 16/07/2012, at 6:12 AM, Colin Holgate co...@verizon.net wrote:

 The reader will get the message right away, and can open the message, or 
 scroll further down, if they need reminding about the context.

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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Doc-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 1:44:22 PM, you wrote:

 The Recursion Facilitation Committee wins again!

groan

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Mark Wieder
Monte-

Sunday, July 15, 2012, 2:00:14 PM, you wrote:

 Does anyone know of an iOS email client that's designed to bottom
 post? I hate top posting myself but most of my list responses these
 days are from the phone which seems to want to make bottom posting
 difficult. Why would apple design a desktop client that puts the
 signature at the bottom and a mobile one that puts the signature at
 the top?

Yeah, gmail does the same. Doesn't seem to be configurable. I have to
scroll down, then insert my text.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 mwie...@ahsoftware.net


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Re: [OT] Between the lines of the previous post.

2012-07-15 Thread Roger Eller
On Sunday, July 15, 2012, J. Landman Gay wrote:

 And in all cases, bar none, all the nested signature lines should be
 removed.


There should be an app for that!

~Roger



-- 
Roger Eller
Graphics Systems Analyst
Sealed Air Corporation
864-967-1625  Office
864-908-0337  Cell
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