Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> For anyone following this, simply opening the stack with messages
> turned off doesn't work for very long. As soon as you perform any
> significant action (click a control, change cards, etc.) the stack
> is reset to mode
> 2. But doing this in the message box does persist:
>
>set the _ideoverride of stack  to false

Good to know.  Thanks.

@Monte:
Now that there's a property-driven solution in place, can we be done 
with the limitation of "rev*" names?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

For anyone following this, simply opening the stack with messages turned 
off doesn't work for very long. As soon as you perform any significant 
action (click a control, change cards, etc.) the stack is reset to mode 
2. But doing this in the message box does persist:


  set the _ideoverride of stack  to false

On 10/10/18 11:29 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
Thanks very much Monte, that's exactly what I wanted to know. For simple 
editing it sounds like I could just turn off messages, open the stack 
from Finder, and turn messages back on, bypassing preOpenStack entirely. 
If that doesn't work you've given me a couple of other things to try.


I'd still like to know the reason for the bizarre error warning, but one 
thing at a time. It was odd but wasn't a blocker.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 9, 2018 5:33:59 PM Monte Goulding via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Hi Jacque

I’m sorry I haven’t been following this whole thread so forgive me if 
my responses have already been covered.


On 10 Oct 2018, at 6:22 am, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:



If the cantEdit is false but the mode is reported as 2, that sounds
like an engine bug.


Don't you mean cantModify here?

toplevel stacks that are ide stacks are forced to toplevel locked 
(mode 2). We determine this through a stack custom property 
`ideOverride`. If that is true when loading the stack from disk then 
it is set as an IDE stack. Additionally there is a runtime property of 
stacks that you can set `_ideoverride` that can turn this behavior on 
and off.


Jacque’s issue is we have an IDE script that dynamically sets these in 
revfrontsciptlibrary preOpenStack:


  if revIDEObjectIsOnIDEStack(tTarget) then
 # IM-2016-03-01: [[ Bug 16244 ]] IDE stacks should always hide 
invisible  objects

 set the showInvisibles of stack tStack to false
 set the _ideoverride of stack tStack to true
  end if

It all hinges on a function in revcommonlibrary:

function revStackNameIsIDEStack pStackName
  if there is a stack pStackName and the _ideoverride of stack 
pStackName then

 return true
  else if pStackName is among the items of "message box,answer 
dialog,ask   dialog,home" then

 return true
  else if pStackName begins with "com.livecode." then
 return true
  else if pStackName is among the lines of 
revInternal__ListLoadedLibraries()   then

 return true
  else
 return pStackName begins with "rev"
  end if
end revStackNameIsIDEStack

We could look at changing that to ensure the filename of the stack is 
an IDE or plugin file path but in your case just patching that to set 
the caseSensitive to true just before checking for “rev” would cover it.


Cheers

Monte


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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Thanks very much Monte, that's exactly what I wanted to know. For simple 
editing it sounds like I could just turn off messages, open the stack from 
Finder, and turn messages back on, bypassing preOpenStack entirely. If that 
doesn't work you've given me a couple of other things to try.


I'd still like to know the reason for the bizarre error warning, but one 
thing at a time. It was odd but wasn't a blocker.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 9, 2018 5:33:59 PM Monte Goulding via use-livecode 
 wrote:



Hi Jacque

I’m sorry I haven’t been following this whole thread so forgive me if my 
responses have already been covered.


On 10 Oct 2018, at 6:22 am, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:



If the cantEdit is false but the mode is reported as 2, that sounds
like an engine bug.


Don't you mean cantModify here?

toplevel stacks that are ide stacks are forced to toplevel locked (mode 2). 
We determine this through a stack custom property `ideOverride`. If that is 
true when loading the stack from disk then it is set as an IDE stack. 
Additionally there is a runtime property of stacks that you can set 
`_ideoverride` that can turn this behavior on and off.


Jacque’s issue is we have an IDE script that dynamically sets these in 
revfrontsciptlibrary preOpenStack:


  if revIDEObjectIsOnIDEStack(tTarget) then
 # IM-2016-03-01: [[ Bug 16244 ]] IDE stacks should always hide invisible 
 objects

 set the showInvisibles of stack tStack to false
 set the _ideoverride of stack tStack to true
  end if

It all hinges on a function in revcommonlibrary:

function revStackNameIsIDEStack pStackName
  if there is a stack pStackName and the _ideoverride of stack pStackName then
 return true
  else if pStackName is among the items of "message box,answer dialog,ask 
  dialog,home" then

 return true
  else if pStackName begins with "com.livecode." then
 return true
  else if pStackName is among the lines of revInternal__ListLoadedLibraries() 
  then

 return true
  else
 return pStackName begins with "rev"
  end if
end revStackNameIsIDEStack

We could look at changing that to ensure the filename of the stack is an 
IDE or plugin file path but in your case just patching that to set the 
caseSensitive to true just before checking for “rev” would cover it.


Cheers

Monte


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Monte Goulding via use-livecode]

Hi Jacque

I’m sorry I haven’t been following this whole thread so forgive me if my 
responses have already been covered.

> On 10 Oct 2018, at 6:22 am, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> >> If the cantEdit is false but the mode is reported as 2, that sounds
> >> like an engine bug.

Don't you mean cantModify here?

toplevel stacks that are ide stacks are forced to toplevel locked (mode 2). We 
determine this through a stack custom property `ideOverride`. If that is true 
when loading the stack from disk then it is set as an IDE stack. Additionally 
there is a runtime property of stacks that you can set `_ideoverride` that can 
turn this behavior on and off.

Jacque’s issue is we have an IDE script that dynamically sets these in 
revfrontsciptlibrary preOpenStack:

   if revIDEObjectIsOnIDEStack(tTarget) then
  # IM-2016-03-01: [[ Bug 16244 ]] IDE stacks should always hide invisible 
objects
  set the showInvisibles of stack tStack to false
  set the _ideoverride of stack tStack to true
   end if

It all hinges on a function in revcommonlibrary:

function revStackNameIsIDEStack pStackName
   if there is a stack pStackName and the _ideoverride of stack pStackName then
  return true
   else if pStackName is among the items of "message box,answer dialog,ask 
dialog,home" then
  return true
   else if pStackName begins with "com.livecode." then
  return true
   else if pStackName is among the lines of revInternal__ListLoadedLibraries() 
then
  return true
   else
  return pStackName begins with "rev"
   end if   
end revStackNameIsIDEStack

We could look at changing that to ensure the filename of the stack is an IDE or 
plugin file path but in your case just patching that to set the caseSensitive 
to true just before checking for “rev” would cover it.

Cheers

Monte


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> On 10/9/18 1:16 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> If the cantEdit is false but the mode is reported as 2, that sounds
>> like an engine bug.
>
> Probably not so much a bug as a design decision. The engine seems to
> enforce mode 2 if it thinks the stack is an IDE stack.

I don't believe that's an engine thing, likely an IDE thing.

And if the team is able to work on their stacks, there must be a way you 
can work on yours.



> I'd like to see this convention removed, and have the engine check for
> a custom property or something similar. There are cases where a stack
> name does need to start with "rev", but even if it doesn't it is going
> to throw off new users. It's an artificial legacy limitation that
> doesn't have to exist.

Good call. A custom property seems much simpler for everyone.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 10/9/18 1:16 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
If the cantEdit is false but the mode is reported as 2, that sounds like 
an engine bug.


Probably not so much a bug as a design decision. The engine seems to 
enforce mode 2 if it thinks the stack is an IDE stack. But that does 
raise the question (again) on how the LC team works on those.


I'd like to see this convention removed, and have the engine check for a 
custom property or something similar. There are cases where a stack name 
does need to start with "rev", but even if it doesn't it is going to 
throw off new users. It's an artificial legacy limitation that doesn't 
have to exist.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> I checked that early on and again today, cantEdit is false. The style
> was reported as toplevel but I set it again anyway in the message box.
> The command that opens the stack is a plain "go stack", the same as
> all the others in the suite that open normally. GRevDevolppment is
> true.

If the cantEdit is false but the mode is reported as 2, that sounds like 
an engine bug.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

I checked that early on and again today, cantEdit is false. The style was 
reported as toplevel but I set it again anyway in the message box. The 
command that opens the stack is a plain "go stack", the same as all the 
others in the suite that open normally. GRevDevolppment is true.



The only difference between this stack and hundreds of others is the name, 
as far as I can see.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 8, 2018 5:35:27 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:



J. Landman Gay wrote:

> I was able to look at this again today. The style of the stack is
> toplevel, it is visible and frontmost, but the mode is 2. This is true
> whether gRevDevelopment is true or false. Show IDE stacks in Lists is
> turned on.
>
> It's stuck that way. LC 9.0.1.

The style is the persistent property which governs mode when opened
using "open" or "go"; the mode is the current actual mode, which can
differ from the style if opened using a mode name as a command (e,g,
"palette ").

When the mode is 2 that usually means the cantEdit has been set.  This
may have been set somewhere in the IDE, thinking it's an IDE stack.

What happens if you set the cantEdit of the stack to false?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> I was able to look at this again today. The style of the stack is
> toplevel, it is visible and frontmost, but the mode is 2. This is true
> whether gRevDevelopment is true or false. Show IDE stacks in Lists is
> turned on.
>
> It's stuck that way. LC 9.0.1.

The style is the persistent property which governs mode when opened 
using "open" or "go"; the mode is the current actual mode, which can 
differ from the style if opened using a mode name as a command (e,g, 
"palette ").


When the mode is 2 that usually means the cantEdit has been set.  This 
may have been set somewhere in the IDE, thinking it's an IDE stack.


What happens if you set the cantEdit of the stack to false?

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

I was able to look at this again today. The style of the stack is 
toplevel, it is visible and frontmost, but the mode is 2. This is true 
whether gRevDevelopment is true or false. Show IDE stacks in Lists is 
turned on.


It's stuck that way. LC 9.0.1.

On 10/4/18 12:32 AM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
I won't be able to check it for a few days. The problem isn't so much 
that I couldn't change the stack but how it got assigned as mode two in 
the first place. It was a regular topstack when it was created back in 
LC 8.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 3, 2018 6:44:34 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:



J. Landman Gay wrote:
> The main thing I needed to know is whether there was an easier way to
> edit the stack than what we were doing. It seems there isn't.

If "toplevel " doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for
the folks at LC Ltd.

I can understand if you don't have time to investigate this, but now I'm
intrigued and wish we knew what made the stack you're working on so
unusually difficult beyond the naming conventions.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.com    http://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

I won't be able to check it for a few days. The problem isn't so much that 
I couldn't change the stack but how it got assigned as mode two in the 
first place. It was a regular topstack when it was created back in LC 8.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 3, 2018 6:44:34 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:



J. Landman Gay wrote:
> The main thing I needed to know is whether there was an easier way to
> edit the stack than what we were doing. It seems there isn't.

If "toplevel " doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for
the folks at LC Ltd.

I can understand if you don't have time to investigate this, but now I'm
intrigued and wish we knew what made the stack you're working on so
unusually difficult beyond the naming conventions.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:
> The main thing I needed to know is whether there was an easier way to
> edit the stack than what we were doing. It seems there isn't.

If "toplevel " doesn't work for you then it doesn't work for 
the folks at LC Ltd.


I can understand if you don't have time to investigate this, but now I'm 
intrigued and wish we knew what made the stack you're working on so 
unusually difficult beyond the naming conventions.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

We only needed to make a minor tweak, nothing big, and it didn't take long 
when we avoided use of the IDE itself. But we shouldn't have to do that.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 3, 2018 4:51:20 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:


It would be comforting to find how how she got back to work, but since
she's not here I assume she's busy because she did.




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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

Yeah, we plan to change the name for the next release in January. The 
author of each courseware title names its sections and he named this one 
"Revelation as Apocalypse". It's currently in use by this semester's 
students, but he's agreed to a different name for next semester.


The main thing I needed to know is whether there was an easier way to edit 
the stack than what we were doing. It seems there isn't. The edit was minor 
and was done via the message box. I think there's a bug in there somewhere 
but it isn't worth pursuing right now. The bizarre warning message was also 
particularly strange, and I'm curious where that came from.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 3, 2018 4:01:41 PM Kay C Lan via use-livecode 
 wrote:



On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 8:48 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
 wrote:


The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of
places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,
etc.) and I'd have to add exceptions everywhere to accomodate just a
couple of problem names. We only want to do an occasional edit without
upsetting the whole IDE.


I appreciate that this will not solve 'the problem' but would solve
your 'current problem'; why not give the stack the correct name "The
Revelation" *. That way ALL your  glossaries, student notes and other
references would show the correct title of the book. Please note there
is no 's' at the end, and by adopting the correct name you may go some
way in helping the students win trivia bets as to whether the last
book of the Bible is called "Revelations".

* At least in my copy of the King James Bible it's called "The
Revelation - of St John the Divine"; other versions of the Bible may
have colloquially translated that to Revelations.

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Kay C Lan wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 8:48 AM J. Landman Gay wrote:
>>
>> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
>> multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens
>> of places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history,
>> lookups, etc.) and I'd have to add exceptions everywhere to
>> accomodate just a couple of problem names. We only want to do an
>> occasional edit without upsetting the whole IDE.
>>
> I appreciate that this will not solve 'the problem' but would solve
> your 'current problem'; why not give the stack the correct name "The
> Revelation" *.

I have seen even academic use without "the".

But such considerations do not appear to be needed.

What Jacque described is a set of circumstances that prevent even work 
on the IDE.


This is either the most critical bug in the IDE's history and therefore 
likely to be resolved within days if it hasn't already, or just a minor 
error like attempting to set the stack's mode rather than its style 
(good catch, Bob).


Either way, resolvable in short or order.

It would be comforting to find how how she got back to work, but since 
she's not here I assume she's busy because she did.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Kay C Lan via use-livecode]

On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 8:48 AM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode
 wrote:
>
> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
> multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of
> places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,
> etc.) and I'd have to add exceptions everywhere to accomodate just a
> couple of problem names. We only want to do an occasional edit without
> upsetting the whole IDE.
>
I appreciate that this will not solve 'the problem' but would solve
your 'current problem'; why not give the stack the correct name "The
Revelation" *. That way ALL your  glossaries, student notes and other
references would show the correct title of the book. Please note there
is no 's' at the end, and by adopting the correct name you may go some
way in helping the students win trivia bets as to whether the last
book of the Bible is called "Revelations".

* At least in my copy of the King James Bible it's called "The
Revelation - of St John the Divine"; other versions of the Bible may
have colloquially translated that to Revelations.

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Point taken. But Livecode is not a database tool. :-)

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2018, at 10:45 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Also, I don't think FileMaker "has" to do it -- there are many database
> tools out there, and as far as I know, none of them do this.


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

FileMaker goes much deeper than this, and functionality like this would
almost have to be part of the engine.

Naming things is a way of making it easier to keep track of them for the
developer. Who wants to write

graphic id 5621 of group id 5619 of group id 5615 of group id 5605 of group
id 1282 of card id 1002 of stack "/Users/gcanyon/Documents/My
Livecode/Plugins/Navigator.rev"

when you can just write

graphic "topright in"

So for starters, you'd need to parse every script as it was saved, find all
the object references, and replace all object references with long IDs.
Likewise, you'd need a reverse routine to turn scripts back into something
readable when the developer wants to edit them. That's easier in FileMaker
because there is only one way to reference a control, as opposed to the
myriad of ways you can do it in LiveCode. You'd also need to find a way to
make that robust against file name/path changes, which is a whole other can
of worms.

Also, I don't think FileMaker "has" to do it -- there are many database
tools out there, and as far as I know, none of them do this.

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 8:34 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> It would be easy enough. Just maintain an array in each card's custom
> properties with a pseudoname and the long id as keys, and call a function
> to retrieve them when you reference them. But then, why name objects at
> all? Why not just refer to them by their long ids in the scripts? Also
> there is the altid property which allows you to copy an object and still
> refer to it by it's altid wherever it is found.
>
> And, thinking about this a bit, whenever I get the chance I iterate
> through a series of objects either by using the number of  in a
> repeat loop, or else by storing them in a property when I need them. I
> guess these are forms of abstraction. I went through all my code and
> "dereferenced" it in preparation for moving to behaviors. I store any
> objects I need to reference specifically in custom properties.
>
> For instance I have what I call a name tag field, which is a label
> indicating what the parent of a form is (the site a device belongs to, the
> customer a site belongs to etc.) So I store a custom property in the card
> or stack where the cNameTagField property is the name of the field. To
> avoid multiple calls to "get the  of", I store all such
> properties in a single array, get the array one time and populate script
> local variables. Another form of abstraction.
>
> I guess the reason Filemaker has to have this automatic abstraction is
> because the database and underlying form objects are so closely linked. It
> really wouldn't work any other way. In livecode, the only link between a
> database column and a field or button is the code you write.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 2, 2018, at 15:30 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
> > completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
> > column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and
> all
> > references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
> > automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm
> guessing
> > they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
> > unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they
> render
> > themselves for you to edit them.
> >
> > So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> > that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> > automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.
> >
> > gc
>
>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

It would be easy enough. Just maintain an array in each card's custom 
properties with a pseudoname and the long id as keys, and call a function to 
retrieve them when you reference them. But then, why name objects at all? Why 
not just refer to them by their long ids in the scripts? Also there is the 
altid property which allows you to copy an object and still refer to it by it's 
altid wherever it is found. 

And, thinking about this a bit, whenever I get the chance I iterate through a 
series of objects either by using the number of  in a repeat loop, 
or else by storing them in a property when I need them. I guess these are forms 
of abstraction. I went through all my code and "dereferenced" it in preparation 
for moving to behaviors. I store any objects I need to reference specifically 
in custom properties. 

For instance I have what I call a name tag field, which is a label indicating 
what the parent of a form is (the site a device belongs to, the customer a site 
belongs to etc.) So I store a custom property in the card or stack where the 
cNameTagField property is the name of the field. To avoid multiple calls to 
"get the  of", I store all such properties in a single array, get the 
array one time and populate script local variables. Another form of 
abstraction. 

I guess the reason Filemaker has to have this automatic abstraction is because 
the database and underlying form objects are so closely linked. It really 
wouldn't work any other way. In livecode, the only link between a database 
column and a field or button is the code you write. 

Bob S


> On Oct 2, 2018, at 15:30 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
> completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
> column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and all
> references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
> automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm guessing
> they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
> unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they render
> themselves for you to edit them.
> 
> So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.
> 
> gc


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:12 PM Brian Milby via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Name lookups probably only happen in the development environment. My guess
> is that everything is stored/referenced using the ID.
>
> I’m not sure how this could translate to LC in general though.
>

I think you're correct on both points. I'm betting this feature would be
hard to retro-fit to any environment. But it sure is nice.
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 4:04 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Geoff Canyon wrote:
> > So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> > that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> > automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.
>
> Ah, thanks.  I wonder how the name lookup for every element in the
> system affects performance.
>
> It sounds like in this regard LC is no worse off than MySQL, SQLite, and
> other systems where names are used directly.
>

If they're doing it the way I think -- having everything based on the
permanent ID and only using the map to parse to the human-applied name when
necessary, then the performance hit is likely very limited and infrequent.
Apart from development work, FileMaker doesn't present the control name
often.

As far as being no worse off, agreed -- I know of no other tool that does
this. It's extraordinary that FileMaker has had this feature since
something like the late 80s, and no other tools have recognized how awesome
it is. It's like chunk expressions -- eye-opening.
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

Name lookups probably only happen in the development environment. My guess is 
that everything is stored/referenced using the ID.

I’m not sure how this could translate to LC in general though.

Thanks,
Brian
On Oct 2, 2018, 7:04 PM -0400, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
, wrote:
> Geoff Canyon wrote:
> > The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
> > completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
> > column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and all
> > references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
> > automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm guessing
> > they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
> > unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they render
> > themselves for you to edit them.
> >
> > So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
> > that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
> > automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.
>
> Ah, thanks. I wonder how the name lookup for every element in the
> system affects performance.
>
> It sounds like in this regard LC is no worse off than MySQL, SQLite, and
> other systems where names are used directly.
>
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.com http://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Geoff Canyon wrote:

The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and all
references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm guessing
they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they render
themselves for you to edit them.

So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.


Ah, thanks.  I wonder how the name lookup for every element in the 
system affects performance.


It sounds like in this regard LC is no worse off than MySQL, SQLite, and 
other systems where names are used directly.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

The fact that there is an underlying permanent unique id for everything,
completely abstracted from the user. So you can change the name of a
column, or table, or layout, one time, in the database definition, and all
references to that object in scripts, other layouts, etc. will
automatically update -- or really, peeking behind the curtain, I'm guessing
they don't have to update at all because they all reference the permanent
unique id, and only render it into the name you know it by when they render
themselves for you to edit them.

So in LiveCode terms, imagine if you could rename a card, and any script
that referenced that card, or controls on it, wouldn't break, but just
automatically reflect the new name. Or rename a control, or a stack.

gc

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 1:09 PM Richard Gaskin via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Geoff Canyon wrote:
>
>  > Yep, FileMaker isn't perfect, but it does naming right, and almost
>  > nothing else does.
>
> Been many years, but I thought names were user-settable.  What does it
> actually do with names?
>
> --
>   Richard Gaskin
>   Fourth World Systems
>   Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
>   
>   ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Geoff Canyon wrote:

> Yep, FileMaker isn't perfect, but it does naming right, and almost
> nothing else does.

Been many years, but I thought names were user-settable.  What does it 
actually do with names?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 7:35 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Yeah it's been a long time since I worked with it. We had Filemaker Server
> running for a couple small apps, but each user who wanted to run the app
> had to buy a full client license.
>

That part has changed (somewhat) as well. There's a robust web client; you
can build a client (LC is emphasizing this); and a free iOS client. For all
of those, there's no individual license, but some sort of limit on the
total number of server connections. All of this is from having looked at
the FM web site maybe twice in the last nine years, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Yeah it's been a long time since I worked with it. We had Filemaker Server 
running for a couple small apps, but each user who wanted to run the app had to 
buy a full client license. 

Bob S


> On Oct 1, 2018, at 16:25 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yep, FileMaker isn't perfect, but it does naming right, and almost nothing
> else does.
> 
> Also, I'm pretty sure you can type to code now (and for some years).


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

Yep, FileMaker isn't perfect, but it does naming right, and almost nothing
else does.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can type to code now (and for some years).

On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 3:52 PM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I found it much easier to move away from Filemaker when I groked their
> licensing. Seems I had to pay a licensing fee for every copy of every app I
> distributed, even when it was for internal consumption. That and their idea
> of coding is filling in dialogs. In fact, I went looking for a hypercard
> alternative that was current because I had enough of filemaker.
>
> Bob S
>
>
> > On Oct 1, 2018, at 15:21 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 7:34 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> > use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I like the idea of stack UUIDs.
> >>
> >
> > One of the awesome things about FileMaker is that tables, fields/columns,
> > and layouts all have underlying UUIDs. If you rename a table or column,
> no
> > problem -- everything based on that, including layouts displaying values
> > from the column, calculations based on the column, etc., automatically
> > updates to the new name. Once you've used a system like that, it's hard
> to
> > use anything else.
> >
> > gc
>
>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I found it much easier to move away from Filemaker when I groked their 
licensing. Seems I had to pay a licensing fee for every copy of every app I 
distributed, even when it was for internal consumption. That and their idea of 
coding is filling in dialogs. In fact, I went looking for a hypercard 
alternative that was current because I had enough of filemaker. 

Bob S


> On Oct 1, 2018, at 15:21 , Geoff Canyon via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 7:34 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>> I like the idea of stack UUIDs.
>> 
> 
> One of the awesome things about FileMaker is that tables, fields/columns,
> and layouts all have underlying UUIDs. If you rename a table or column, no
> problem -- everything based on that, including layouts displaying values
> from the column, calculations based on the column, etc., automatically
> updates to the new name. Once you've used a system like that, it's hard to
> use anything else.
> 
> gc


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Mon, Oct 1, 2018 at 7:34 AM Bob Sneidar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> I like the idea of stack UUIDs.
>

One of the awesome things about FileMaker is that tables, fields/columns,
and layouts all have underlying UUIDs. If you rename a table or column, no
problem -- everything based on that, including layouts displaying values
from the column, calculations based on the column, etc., automatically
updates to the new name. Once you've used a system like that, it's hard to
use anything else.

gc
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

On Sat, Sep 29, 2018 at 3:52 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

>  The problems occured when trying
> to drag or resize those controls, which were immune to any manipulation.
> The stack was stubbornly set to mode 2 and wouldn't budge. We were able
> to manipulate objects via the message box as long as we specified a long
> path to the control. The property inspector was inconsistent in
> recognizing the target stack.


For the record, Navigator has built-in resize/move controls and property
editors, and all of them work on any control anywhere, no matter what mode
the stack is. I regularly edit the controls/layout of Navigator with
Navigator itself -- sometimes by opening a second Navigator, but sometimes
in the primary copy of Navigator itself, which can produce interesting
results :-)

I'm creating new documentation for Navigator
. It's barebones so far, but the use
case you're looking at is selecting what to display
 and
resizing/moving
controls .

In bullet points:

1. Open Navigator.
2. Select "Show IDE Stacks" on the stack menu (second from left). -- this
is so the Revelation stack will show in Navigator.
3. Select the Revelation stack in the stack menu.
4. If you want to work with a card other than the current card of stack
"Revelation", select the card you want on the card menu (third from left).
5. Navigator's list will show all the controls on that card. Select
whatever control(s) you want to modify. Standard list operators
(shift-click to extend selections, command-click to toggle selections)
work. Then:


To resize or move the controls, select the Size/Location Editor...
on the
Properties menu (5th from right, the "P")

To change the colors of the controls, select the Color Editor... (docs TBD)
on the Properties menu.

Both the Size/Location Editor and the Color Editor have revert options, so
you can undo anything you have done since the last time you opened them; or
the selection changed, if they're open as palettes.

To edit the properties of the controls, select the Property Editor...
 on the Properties
menu.

If you have any questions just let me know.

gc
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Stack mode is read only. You set the style. 

Bob S


> On Sep 29, 2018, at 15:33 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> CantModify is false and stack mode is 2. I tried repeatedly to set it to 1 
> and wouldn't take. It's decided it's a 2 and there is no changing its mind.


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I like the idea of stack UUIDs. 

Bob S


> On Sep 28, 2018, at 17:16 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Of course, part of the IDE problem comes from dealing with stacks by short 
> name only, and this has been the subject of a long-standing bug report. The 
> engine itself has no problem with multiple stacks, just the IDE. And this 
> could possibly be eliminated with stack UUIDs or if the IDE looked at 
> filenames in addition to stack names.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 9/29/18 1:29 PM, Geoff Canyon via use-livecode wrote:

The only limitations I know of that Navigator doesn't much solve are the
fact that "rev" stacks don't throw errors (this has cost me much pain and
suffering) and Navigator doesn't distinguish between IDE "rev" stacks and
non-IDE "rev" stacks, so enabling access to "rev" in Navigator exposes the
IDE (including all of Navigator's files).


Showing IDE stacks in lists does the same, and we were able to select 
controls via the app browser normally. The problems occured when trying 
to drag or resize those controls, which were immune to any manipulation. 
The stack was stubbornly set to mode 2 and wouldn't budge. We were able 
to manipulate objects via the message box as long as we specified a long 
path to the control. The property inspector was inconsistent in 
recognizing the target stack.


This is fairly new behavior, it used to be difficult but do-able. I'm 
not sure when it changed, since the last time we needed to edit a "rev" 
stack was about 2 years ago.


Some day I will have the time to look at Navigator more closely. I did 
give it a shot a couple of times but found the learning curve too high 
for a quick switch. I only hear good things about it though, so some day 
maybe.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 9/28/18 3:28 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
That would seem a bug in the IDE: If there is no means why which the IDE 
allows work on stacks the IDE believes are part of the IDE, the IDE 
cannot be worked on.


I trust the team will want to resolve that ASAP.

Before submitting that bug report, it may be helpful to check both the 
cantModify and modes of the stacks disallowing normal editing.  If they 
are toplevel and cantmodify is false you have a bug in the IDE, and if 
not you have a solution to get you back to work.


CantModify is false and stack mode is 2. I tried repeatedly to set it to 
1 and wouldn't take. It's decided it's a 2 and there is no changing its 
mind.




 > But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally
 > two stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack
 > "Revelations".
 > When trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it
 > from Finder, clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error
 > is thrown:
 >
 > "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is
 > already open. Before loading
 > /Users//Documents//Revelations.livecode what do you
 > want to do with stack
 > /Users//Documents//TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"
 >
 > Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the
 > same name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path
 > followed by the short name.
 >
 > Huh?

Does TSMain have anything set in its stackfiles property?  Or is the 
stackfiles property set in Revelations.livecode?


Neither stack has any stackfiles, all stacks are downloaded from the 
server on demand using a lookup file auto-generated on the server every 
hour. User history lists and glossary lookups are created using the name 
of the stack, the card, and some extra data held in script locals.


During development stacks are loaded from disk using their filenames, 
calculated according to a naming system that incorporates the stack 
name. Although the filenames are similar to the stack names, they are 
not identical. Regardless, "TSMain" in any form is not the same as 
"Revelation as Apocalypse."


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Geoff Canyon via use-livecode]

It's self-serving except for the fact that I give it away for free, but
Navigator solves problems like this for breakfast. It has no problems
dealing with "rev" stacks -- it has to, since otherwise I'd have to resort
to the IDE to develop Navigator ;-)

The only limitations I know of that Navigator doesn't much solve are the
fact that "rev" stacks don't throw errors (this has cost me much pain and
suffering) and Navigator doesn't distinguish between IDE "rev" stacks and
non-IDE "rev" stacks, so enabling access to "rev" in Navigator exposes the
IDE (including all of Navigator's files). I had thought about making that
access more granular, but until now that would have seemed to be only for
me. I'll think about it and let you know what I come up with. But in
the meantime, what Navigator provides right now works for me, and would (I
think) help you too.

gc

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 12:09 PM J. Landman Gay via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev"
> (i.e., Bible study, "Revelations".) This of course wreaks havoc in the
> IDE, aside from just omitting the stacks from file lists. We have tried
> setting gRevDevelopment to true and turning on the option to view IDE
> stacks, but lots of other things still fail. Objects can't be selected
> with the edit tool and other oddities occur that make the stacks
> uneditable.
>
> Temporarily renaming the stack sometimes works, but throws errors all
> over the place when scripts try to navigate or use the long ID for other
> purposes.
>
> But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally two
> stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack "Revelations".
> When trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it from
> Finder, clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error is thrown:
>
> "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is already
> open. Before loading
>   /Users//Documents//Revelations.livecode what do you
> want to do with stack
>   /Users//Documents//TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"
>
> Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the same
> name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path
> followed by the short name.
>
> Huh? This is under LC 9.0.1 but also happens in LC 8.
>
> How would you manage working with a stack whose name starts with "rev"?
> We are planning to change the name somehow if we can think of a good
> substitute, but for now it needs to stay as-is. And what's the deal with
> the weird conflict message? There are no duplicate stacks in RAM.
>
> --
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 09/28/2018 01:40 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
I hate to say this is one of those rare times when I disagree with you, 
but this is one of those rare times I disagree with you.


LOL

Naming things has implications in many contexts across most languages. 
Even well-written SQL will need to be revised if it refers to a field or 
table whose name has changed.


Sure. But you wouldn't want to have a field name dependent on the 
contents of a record in another field. And that's my point. Or at least 
the one I was trying to make.


And most importantly, this particular instance has less to do with 
generic presumed "best practice" than what appears to be just a bug in 
the IDE:  when it encounters stacks that it thinks are its own, even 
using the prescribed method for editing the stacks doesn't work.


If setting gRevDevelopment did what it's supposed to do, she'd be able 
to get back to work with no more inconvenience that seeing IDE object 
names in its UI listings, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.




Not so much of a disagreement, I think, as looking at different facets 
(Ha! I almost wrote "faucets"... we're about to get serious plumbing 
done here).


I think this does point out at least one serious bug in the IDE with 
respect to system/non-system stacks. There's a function somewhere in the 
IDE (I forget the name or location) that determines whether a stack is 
"special"... some of the stack names are hardwired, others are 
determined by naming convention.


Of course, part of the IDE problem comes from dealing with stacks by 
short name only, and this has been the subject of a long-standing bug 
report. The engine itself has no problem with multiple stacks, just the 
IDE. And this could possibly be eliminated with stack UUIDs or if the 
IDE looked at filenames in addition to stack names.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Wieder wrote:

> On 09/27/2018 03:47 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>
>> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
>> multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens
>> of places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history,
>> lookups,
>
> Really really really a bad idea.
> I'm sure you knew that already, but I want to say it again.
> That's really really really a bad idea.
>
> One of the prime tenets of database design is that you shouldn't use
> actual data to link items together. Else you get into maintenance
> nightmares and things fall apart when you get unexpected data, etc.
>
> I hate to say you should rethink the design, but you should probably
> rethink the design.

I hate to say this is one of those rare times when I disagree with you, 
but this is one of those rare times I disagree with you.


   "There are only two hard things in Computer Science:
cache invalidation and naming things."
- Phil Karlton

Naming things has implications in many contexts across most languages. 
Even well-written SQL will need to be revised if it refers to a field or 
table whose name has changed.


Moreover, xTalks offer many unique benefits over other languages and 
object models, among them is being able to refer to objects easily by 
name.  Sometimes using names that carry semantic value within the usage 
context can be a good solution.  The alternative would be some sort of 
lookup, taking us to the first item in Karlton's list.


And most importantly, this particular instance has less to do with 
generic presumed "best practice" than what appears to be just a bug in 
the IDE:  when it encounters stacks that it thinks are its own, even 
using the prescribed method for editing the stacks doesn't work.


If setting gRevDevelopment did what it's supposed to do, she'd be able 
to get back to work with no more inconvenience that seeing IDE object 
names in its UI listings, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

J. Landman Gay wrote:

> Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev"
> (i.e., Bible study, "Revelations".) This of course wreaks havoc in the
> IDE, aside from just omitting the stacks from file lists. We have
> tried setting gRevDevelopment to true and turning on the option to
> view IDE stacks, but lots of other things still fail. Objects can't be
> selected with the edit tool and other oddities occur that make the
> stacks uneditable.

That would seem a bug in the IDE: If there is no means why which the IDE 
allows work on stacks the IDE believes are part of the IDE, the IDE 
cannot be worked on.


I trust the team will want to resolve that ASAP.

Before submitting that bug report, it may be helpful to check both the 
cantModify and modes of the stacks disallowing normal editing.  If they 
are toplevel and cantmodify is false you have a bug in the IDE, and if 
not you have a solution to get you back to work.



> But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally
> two stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack
> "Revelations".
> When trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it
> from Finder, clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error
> is thrown:
>
> "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is
> already open. Before loading
>   /Users//Documents//Revelations.livecode what do you
> want to do with stack
>   /Users//Documents//TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"
>
> Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the
> same name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path
> followed by the short name.
>
> Huh?

Does TSMain have anything set in its stackfiles property?  Or is the 
stackfiles property set in Revelations.livecode?


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Oh I see your point! 

Bob S


> On Sep 27, 2018, at 23:22 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Hmmm... If she means that she has links or buttons that navigate to various 
>> stacks and cards, I'm not sure how else she could do it. I suppose setting 
>> properties or constants in scripts might work. But you cannot get around the 
>> fact that when navigating to what amounts to a form, it needs to be a hard 
>> reference somehow.
> 
> Sure it does. But the stacks could be named "One,Two,Three" or 
> "Vera,Chuck,Dave" or "Curly,Moe,Shemp" or whatever. They don't have to be 
> significant data points.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Lagi Pittas via use-livecode]

Hi Mark,

Couldn't agree more.

I name my stacks stkName, stkOthernMe cards are crdName etc  fields used
for lists are lstName - Got used to that using foxpro.
One way out of this is without having to rewrite everything, is rename the
stacks with stkRev (for instance) and wherever there is a display of the
name needed instead of "display" "StkName"
it displays FixName("stkName") where fixname returns the stack name without
the "stk" prefix

Lagi

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 at 00:13, Mark Wieder via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> On 09/27/2018 03:47 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:
>
> > The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole
> > multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of
> > places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups,
>
> Really really really a bad idea.
> I'm sure you knew that already, but I want to say it again.
> That's really really really a bad idea.
>
> One of the prime tenets of database design is that you shouldn't use
> actual data to link items together. Else you get into maintenance
> nightmares and things fall apart when you get unexpected data, etc.
>
> I hate to say you should rethink the design, but you should probably
> rethink the design.
>
> --
>   Mark Wieder
>   ahsoftw...@gmail.com
>
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 09/27/2018 04:26 PM, Bob Sneidar via use-livecode wrote:

Hmmm... If she means that she has links or buttons that navigate to various 
stacks and cards, I'm not sure how else she could do it. I suppose setting 
properties or constants in scripts might work. But you cannot get around the 
fact that when navigating to what amounts to a form, it needs to be a hard 
reference somehow.


Sure it does. But the stacks could be named "One,Two,Three" or 
"Vera,Chuck,Dave" or "Curly,Moe,Shemp" or whatever. They don't have to 
be significant data points.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[dunbarxx via use-livecode]

Jacque.

Do you remember I had this same issue (thread in the forums) about two
months ago? All the "destroy" stuff in the world did not prevent that dialog
from coming up. It never caused a problem, only a nuisance.

And oddly, though it occurred continuously over the better part of a year,
it has not come up in the last month or so. I had actually forgotten about
it.

Craig



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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Hmmm... If she means that she has links or buttons that navigate to various 
stacks and cards, I'm not sure how else she could do it. I suppose setting 
properties or constants in scripts might work. But you cannot get around the 
fact that when navigating to what amounts to a form, it needs to be a hard 
reference somehow. 

Bob S


> On Sep 27, 2018, at 16:12 , Mark Wieder via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
>> The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole multi-stack 
>> system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of places 
>> (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups, 
> 
> Really really really a bad idea.
> I'm sure you knew that already, but I want to say it again.
> That's really really really a bad idea.
> 
> One of the prime tenets of database design is that you shouldn't use actual 
> data to link items together. Else you get into maintenance nightmares and 
> things fall apart when you get unexpected data, etc.
> 
> I hate to say you should rethink the design, but you should probably rethink 
> the design.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Wieder


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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 09/27/2018 03:47 PM, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole 
multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of 
places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups, 


Really really really a bad idea.
I'm sure you knew that already, but I want to say it again.
That's really really really a bad idea.

One of the prime tenets of database design is that you shouldn't use 
actual data to link items together. Else you get into maintenance 
nightmares and things fall apart when you get unexpected data, etc.


I hate to say you should rethink the design, but you should probably 
rethink the design.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 9/27/18 2:56 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
You could name it "com.livecode.palette.autocomplete.completions" - that 
doesn't start with "rev" so I'm sure it'll be completely safe. ;)




That should fix it. ;) Next we should discuss the company's product line 
which starts with the word "Revealing"...except so far that doesn't 
interfere with anything.


All suggestions so far are to rename the stack. We actually tried naming 
it "ABCDEFG" and it still misbehaved. I think if we'd saved it to disk 
and then restarted everything it probably would have worked, and that's 
likely what we'll do next time. The message box works so we were setting 
properties that way.


The reason the stack name can't be changed is because the whole 
multi-stack system uses the stack name for internal display in dozens of 
places (glossaries, gradebooks, student notes, reading history, lookups, 
etc.) and I'd have to add exceptions everywhere to accomodate just a 
couple of problem names. We only want to do an occasional edit without 
upsetting the whole IDE.


But my main question is about that totally odd error messages claiming a 
conflict between two open stacks that don't even have the same name (or 
filename, which shouldn't matter anyway.) That's just bizarre.


--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

You could name it "com.livecode.palette.autocomplete.completions" - that 
doesn't start with "rev" so I'm sure it'll be completely safe. ;)


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

How about preceding the name with OT_ or NT_?

Bob S


> On Sep 27, 2018, at 12:08 , J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev" (i.e., 
> Bible study, "Revelations".) This of course wreaks havoc in the IDE, aside 
> from just omitting the stacks from file lists. We have tried setting 
> gRevDevelopment to true and turning on the option to view IDE stacks, but 
> lots of other things still fail. Objects can't be selected with the edit tool 
> and other oddities occur that make the stacks uneditable.
> 
> Temporarily renaming the stack sometimes works, but throws errors all over 
> the place when scripts try to navigate or use the long ID for other purposes.
> 
> But now something else is occuring, totally unintelligible. Normally two 
> stacks are open, an index stack "TSMain" and a mainstack "Revelations". When 
> trying to navigate to Revelations by any method -- opening it from Finder, 
> clicking the name in the index stack, etc. -- this error is thrown:
> 
> "A stack with the same name as the one you are trying to load is already 
> open. Before loading
> /Users//Documents//Revelations.livecode what do you want to do 
> with stack
> /Users//Documents//TSMain.livecode, TSMain?"
> 
> Besides the issue that the two "conflicting" stacks do not have the same 
> name, the TSMain stack is listed twice, once as a full file path followed by 
> the short name.
> 
> Huh? This is under LC 9.0.1 but also happens in LC 8.
> 
> How would you manage working with a stack whose name starts with "rev"? We 
> are planning to change the name somehow if we can think of a good substitute, 
> but for now it needs to stay as-is. And what's the deal with the weird 
> conflict message? There are no duplicate stacks in RAM.
> 
> -- 
> Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
> HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
> 
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Tore Nilsen via use-livecode]

> 27. sep. 2018 kl. 21:08 skrev J. Landman Gay via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Some of my client's stacks must begin with names starting with "rev" (i.e., 
> Bible study, "Revelations".) 

Why does the stack itself need to be called «Revelations»? Could it be a word 
around just to set the title of the stack to «Revelations» ? Then the stack 
name can be something that does not conflict with the IDE. 

Tore Nilsen
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[dunbarxx via use-livecode]

I hurriedly put the funnyChar in the wrong place. I know you get this,
assuming it is at all possible.

But for my own curiosity, would this work? You would have to explcitly
manage the pathNames as:

"re" & numToChar(funnyChar) & "v". The question is, assuming you can make
this work, is will the several OS's bark at all?

Craig



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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[Mike Kerner via use-livecode]

what if the filename and the stack name are different?

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 3:23 PM dunbarxx via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Jacque.
>
> Can you include an invisible, unprintable char between the "R" and the "E"?
>
> Then the file name would appear to read as "rev" but would actually be "re"
> & funnyChar & "v".
>
> There are several such chars in the standard ASCII set.
>
> Craig
>
>
>
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-- 
On the first day, God created the heavens and the Earth
On the second day, God created the oceans.
On the third day, God put the animals on hold for a few hours,
   and did a little diving.
And God said, "This is good."
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Re: Stacks whose names start with "rev"

[dunbarxx via use-livecode]

Jacque.

Can you include an invisible, unprintable char between the "R" and the "E"?

Then the file name would appear to read as "rev" but would actually be "re"
& funnyChar & "v".

There are several such chars in the standard ASCII set.

Craig



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