Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JJS via use-livecode]

thx Dsc!

Op 6-10-2019 om 22:22 schreef dsc--- via use-livecode:

I tend to use a lot of whitespace in layout and keep label fields and text 
buttons long.

And, since I am often the LiveCode programmer's programmer, building libraries 
& LCB extensions and such, I sometimes just throw controls onto the card. 
(Which might contribute to the notion that Dar can't GUI.)

Platform, window size, display size, and font availability are all in the 
environment. Perhaps these can be handled in a uniform manner as one might do a 
stack resize.

If I need to, I use raw primitive controls and use appropriate graphics.

So, to address the question, for simple stacks, I design for Mac and adjust for 
Windows.


On Oct 4, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode 
 wrote:

How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in 
it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, 
text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a 
stack for each OS.

Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode  schreef 
op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:

The original question mentioned testing and debugging.

I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.

It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.

The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.

So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
with a touch screen that I can carry around.

In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.

And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
old guys.

As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
No searching for switches, routers and cables.

Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.

I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
the first year, $800 for subsequent.

Dar
Mad Scientist



On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode

 wrote:


For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended

specs for Windows Development computer"

(... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding

Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
...)

here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not

Windows only" experience:

- Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally

seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
antivirus, and similar results.

- I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my

hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
more

- PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not

bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.

- The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any

extra power feels great, b

Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JJS via use-livecode]

al
Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.

I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
the first year, $800 for subsequent.

Dar
Mad Scientist



On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode

 wrote:


For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended

specs for Windows Development computer"

(... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding

Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
...)

here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not

Windows only" experience:

- Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally

seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
antivirus, and similar results.

- I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my

hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
more

- PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not

bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.

- The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any

extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.

- Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and

various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
remove the ball and chains.

- Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,

which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
operating systems.

I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing

for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
here! :)

Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Home is fine unless you are going to be using it in a business environment. If 
you aren't or never will be joining a domain, if you are not going to be 
sharing files (except with other Windows 10 Home computers) then 10 Home should 
be fine. 

Bob S


> On Oct 6, 2019, at 09:21 , Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy 
> of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows 10 
> Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?  Is 
> it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go with 
> Windows 10 Home?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few 
>> years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else 
>> since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found 
>> VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
>> 
>> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
>> hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS 
>> has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
>> 
>> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB 
>> feels luxurious.
>> 
>> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the 
>> present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for 
>> testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin 
>> up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and 
>> tomorrow.
> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Peter Bogdanoff via use-livecode]

 all of my computers. Parallels is
>>> good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>>> Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>>> reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>>> display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>>> No searching for switches, routers and cables. 
>>> 
>>> Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>>> a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>>> Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>>> MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>>> but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>>> anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>>> 
>>> I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>>> machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>>> different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>>> the first year, $800 for subsequent. 
>>> 
>>> Dar
>>> Mad Scientist
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>>> specs for Windows Development computer"
>>>> 
>>>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>>> Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>>> ...)
>>>> 
>>>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>>> Windows only" experience:
>>>> 
>>>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>>> seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>>> antivirus, and similar results.
>>>> 
>>>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>>> hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>>> more
>>>> 
>>>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>>> bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>>> i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>>>> 
>>>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>>> extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>>> overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>>> budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>>>> 
>>>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>>> various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>>> performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
>>> remove the ball and chains.
>>>> 
>>>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s,
>>> which felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive
>>> influence on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS.
>>> Using a system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into
>>> habits. (There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of
>>> years pretty much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was
>>> proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just
>>> realize that many everyday users are equally efficient on the other
>>> operating systems.
>>>> 
>>>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing
>>> for both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right
>>> here! :)
>>>> 
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> 
>>>> Curry Kenworthy
>>>> 
>>>> Custom Software Development
>>>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>>>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>>>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> use-livecode mailing list
>>>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>>>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your
>>> subscription preferences:
>>>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
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>>> subscription preferences:
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>> 
>> -- 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Martin Koob via use-livecode]

Hi JJS.

I can’t remember everything exactly — it was a while ago — but I think 
originally I could start in safe mode and tried to follow online help documents 
to try and install Mojave.  When I exhausted all the online support articles I 
could find I called Apple support.  They walked me through a number of steps 
and each time it got worse to the point they escalated it.All in all the 
Apple support people were great.  They stayed on the line with me for an hour 
or so and finally they gave me a CS number which I gather stands for ‘Customer 
Satisfaction’   That meant I could go to an authorized repair place and get the 
work needed to get it back in shape done for free.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 6, 2019, at 12:44 PM, JJS via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Martin,
> 
> ok that's really strange. You could also not start the safe mode?
> 
> Well the first update from Sierra to (the 1st) Mojave did also go wrong here, 
> so had to reinstall Sierra then waited for a higher version of Mojave 10.14.2 
> or something and that one went flawless on the Hackintosh.
> 
> For a previous job i had a Apple Laptop 2015 model and on it was MacOs and 
> Win8.1 with Refind bootloader, but as more customers started using win10 i 
> wanted win10 as 3rd boot option.
> 
> It took me a whole weekend and i needed it Mondays again. It went wrong 
> because they hijack the bootsector from each other. COuld not boot win8.1 and 
> after that could not boot MacOs anymore, except for the safe mode. It's 
> tricky because one needs to disable the SIP protection and mount ESP volume 
> to get Refind on it.
> 
> So i can understand that your cautious, so if you are to hesitate than just 
> don't do it and go for a safe way.

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

Pro. 

If a customer wants you to test on Home, buy it at that time. 

If a customer wants you to test on lots of Windows platforms, get Visual Studio 
Pro and build as many virtual machines or real machines you want (for 
development).

If you are the customer, uh, well, it still applies.


> On Oct 6, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would go with pro. You can defer updates with pro so that Monday demo does
> not go sideways because of a Sunday night forced update.
> 
> Ralph DiMola
> IT Director
> Evergreen Information Services
> rdim...@evergreeninfo.net
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
> Of Martin Koob via use-livecode
> Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2019 12:21 PM
> To: How to use LiveCode
> Cc: Martin Koob
> Subject: Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 
> 
> Hi
> 
> I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy
> of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows
> 10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?
> Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go
> with Windows 10 Home?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few
> years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else
> since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found
> VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
>> 
>> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders,
> hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS
> has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
>> 
>> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16
> GB feels luxurious.
>> 
>> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the
> present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for
> testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin
> up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and
> tomorrow.
> 
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription
> preferences:
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> 
> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[dsc--- via use-livecode]

I tend to use a lot of whitespace in layout and keep label fields and text 
buttons long.

And, since I am often the LiveCode programmer's programmer, building libraries 
& LCB extensions and such, I sometimes just throw controls onto the card. 
(Which might contribute to the notion that Dar can't GUI.)

Platform, window size, display size, and font availability are all in the 
environment. Perhaps these can be handled in a uniform manner as one might do a 
stack resize.

If I need to, I use raw primitive controls and use appropriate graphics.

So, to address the question, for simple stacks, I design for Mac and adjust for 
Windows.

> On Oct 4, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text 
> in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and 
> Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and 
> maintain a stack for each OS.
> 
> Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode  schreef 
> op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>> The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 
>> 
>> I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>> develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>> using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>> 
>> It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>> Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>> prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>> currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>> 
>> The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>> however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>> to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>> one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>> emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>> 
>> So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>> but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>> want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>> powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>> someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>> monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>> no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>> Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>> something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>> everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>> with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>> 
>> In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>> 
>> And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>> old guys.
>> 
>> As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>> want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>> good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>> Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>> reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>> display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>> No searching for switches, routers and cables. 
>> 
>> Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>> a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>> Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>> MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>> but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>> anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>> 
>> I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>> machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>> different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>> the first year, $800 for subsequent. 
>> 
>> Dar
>> Mad Scientist
>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>> specs for Windows Development computer"
>>> 
>>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>> Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>> ...)
>>> 
>>> here's my take, from many years

RE: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

I would go with pro. You can defer updates with pro so that Monday demo does
not go sideways because of a Sunday night forced update.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Martin Koob via use-livecode
Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2019 12:21 PM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Martin Koob
Subject: Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 

Hi

I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy
of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows
10 Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?
Is it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go
with Windows 10 Home?

Thanks.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode
 wrote:
> 
> 
> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few
years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else
since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found
VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
> 
> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders,
hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS
has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
> 
> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16
GB feels luxurious.
> 
> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the
present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for
testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin
up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and
tomorrow.

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/6/19 10:55 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

My personal favorite Pro feature is the inclusion of a complete Linux 
shell within Windows.


Waitwhat? How is that licensed? Is that a bash shell (GPL?) How do they 
get away with this?


Update: OK - I looked at this (after a DuckDuckGo search)

and I'm still mystified about how they sneak around the licensing. I'm 
amused by having the ability to run Kali linux with all the underlying 
stability of Windows.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

JJS wrote:

> I would go for the Pro. So you have some more options then the Home
> version.

Seconded.

For the reasonable cost difference, better to have the Pro options 
available that your businesses customers will have, and be able to just 
ignore those for Home customers, than to get Home and never be able to 
use the Pro features at all.


My personal favorite Pro feature is the inclusion of a complete Linux 
shell within Windows.  It's not just a Linux fanboy feature, but useful 
for Mac devs too:  with it you can write bash scripts, so many sysadmin 
tasks can be automated in a single language now, and run them on all 
three platforms.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JJS via use-livecode]

I would go for the Pro. So you have some more options then the Home 
version.


Also depends on the what your customers mostly have.

Op 6-10-2019 om 18:21 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:

Hi

I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy of 
Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows 10 Home 
or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?  Is it 
best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go with 
Windows 10 Home?

Thanks.


Regards,

Martin Koob






On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
 wrote:


All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few years 
ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else since.  
It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found VirtualBox 
was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.

With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS 
has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.

Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB 
feels luxurious.

Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the 
present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for 
testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up 
VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and 
tomorrow.

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JJS via use-livecode]

ok thanks Jacqueline

Op 6-10-2019 om 18:29 schreef J. Landman Gay via use-livecode:
I leave as much extra width as possible and sometimes make the 
textheight a little taller than necessary. Usually it's just the width 
that's a problem. That doesn't work too well if showborder is true 
though.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 6, 2019 10:38:14 AM Jjs via use-livecode 
 wrote:


How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs 
having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows 
even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And 
i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.


Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode  
schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:

The original question mentioned testing and debugging.

I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.

It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.

The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.

So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
with a touch screen that I can carry around.

In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.

And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
old guys.

As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
No searching for switches, routers and cables.

Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.

I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
the first year, $800 for subsequent.

Dar
Mad Scientist



On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode

 wrote:



For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended

specs for Windows Development computer"


(... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding

Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
...)


here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not

Windows only" experience:


- Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally

seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
antivirus, and similar results.


- I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my

hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
more


- PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not

bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.


- The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any

extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.


- Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and

various other software/settings to be allowed to use the 

Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JJS via use-livecode]

ok thanks guys, so just keep adjusting it on the other platforms as it was.

Op 6-10-2019 om 17:57 schreef Richmond via use-livecode:

"The IDE itself is bad in this aspect."

Well, yes, down in the undergrowth, in "Find" and so on there are odd 
labels

that overflow their borders. But not in a major way.

This is more a case of the interface designers forgetting that fonts 
"wax and wane"

cross-platform and that they need to make stretchy label fields.

On 6.10.19 18:48, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 10/4/19 10:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode wrote:
How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs 
having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows 
even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And 
i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.


It has been ever thus. The IDE itself is bad in this aspect. I try to 
deal with this by determining which will require the most space and 
work backwards from that.





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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JJS via use-livecode]

Hi Martin,

ok that's really strange. You could also not start the safe mode?

Well the first update from Sierra to (the 1st) Mojave did also go wrong 
here, so had to reinstall Sierra then waited for a higher version of 
Mojave 10.14.2 or something and that one went flawless on the Hackintosh.


For a previous job i had a Apple Laptop 2015 model and on it was MacOs 
and Win8.1 with Refind bootloader, but as more customers started using 
win10 i wanted win10 as 3rd boot option.


It took me a whole weekend and i needed it Mondays again. It went wrong 
because they hijack the bootsector from each other. COuld not boot 
win8.1 and after that could not boot MacOs anymore, except for the safe 
mode. It's tricky because one needs to disable the SIP protection and 
mount ESP volume to get Refind on it.


So i can understand that your cautious, so if you are to hesitate than 
just don't do it and go for a safe way.


Regards

Op 6-10-2019 om 16:26 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:

Hi JJS

I have an iMac that has the specs for a dual boot but I am reluctant to do it.  
 It has a 1 TB fusion drive and when I upgraded from Sierra to Mojave I ended 
up with a non functioning fusion drive.   I had a nice long chat with the Apple 
Support tech trying to get it working again, then I was escalated and the 
engineer had me do a couple of other things and then my Mac was bricked.  He 
was a bit embarrassed and approved a free repair at my local Mac dealer.   
Turns out the upgrade detached the fusion drive’s SSD from its Hard Drive.

It turned out well in the end but I don’t want to go through that again.

Regards,

Martin Koob






On Oct 3, 2019, at 1:54 PM, JJS via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Why don't you create a dual boot of your mac?

Apple itself supports it and delivers the drivers to do so.

You only need a win10 license


Op 3-10-2019 om 19:48 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:

Hi

I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including 
using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform 
application for Mac and Windows.

I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to 
have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.

Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, speed, 
RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for 
that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make that mistake 
again.

With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don’t 
want to get something underpowered.

Any suggestions? What are people using?

Thanks in advance.

Martin Koob

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

I leave as much extra width as possible and sometimes make the textheight a 
little taller than necessary. Usually it's just the width that's a problem. 
That doesn't work too well if showborder is true though.


--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
On October 6, 2019 10:38:14 AM Jjs via use-livecode 
 wrote:


How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text 
in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and 
Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and 
maintain a stack for each OS.


Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode  
schreef op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:

The original question mentioned testing and debugging.

I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.

It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.

The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.

So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
with a touch screen that I can carry around.

In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.

And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
old guys.

As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
No searching for switches, routers and cables.

Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.

I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
the first year, $800 for subsequent.

Dar
Mad Scientist



On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode

 wrote:



For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended

specs for Windows Development computer"


(... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding

Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
...)


here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not

Windows only" experience:


- Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally

seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
antivirus, and similar results.


- I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my

hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
more


- PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not

bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.


- The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any

extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.


- Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and

various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
performance of your machine. The power is in there, but you have to
remove

Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Colin Holgate via use-livecode]

I originally bought Home, but at some point needed to do some RDP testing, 
which is a Pro feature. I think that currently my Parallels VM of Windows 10 
doesn’t know it’s Pro, I need to track down the registration codes.

Anyway, RDP aside, I didn’t yet need Pro features, and was testing with the 
Home version.

One of my needs is to support OpenGL 3.1, I haven’t tried VirtualBox to see if 
it handles that or not, so for now I’m happy with Parallels.


> On Oct 6, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy 
> of Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows 10 
> Home or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?  Is 
> it best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go with 
> Windows 10 Home?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few 
>> years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else 
>> since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found 
>> VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
>> 
>> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
>> hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS 
>> has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
>> 
>> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB 
>> feels luxurious.
>> 
>> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the 
>> present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for 
>> testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin 
>> up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and 
>> tomorrow.
> 
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> preferences:
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Martin Koob via use-livecode]

Hi

I am just setting up Virtual Box now on my iMac.  I need to purchase of copy of 
Windows 10.  I am just wondering whether people would recommend Windows 10 Home 
or Pro.  Any real difference when it comes to developing or testing?  Is it 
best again to stick to the lowest common denominator principle and go with 
Windows 10 Home?

Thanks.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 4, 2019, at 12:33 PM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few 
> years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else 
> since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found 
> VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
> 
> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
> hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS 
> has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
> 
> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB 
> feels luxurious.
> 
> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the 
> present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for 
> testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up 
> VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and 
> tomorrow.

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Richmond via use-livecode]

"The IDE itself is bad in this aspect."

Well, yes, down in the undergrowth, in "Find" and so on there are odd labels
that overflow their borders. But not in a major way.

This is more a case of the interface designers forgetting that fonts 
"wax and wane"

cross-platform and that they need to make stretchy label fields.

On 6.10.19 18:48, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 10/4/19 10:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode wrote:
How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs 
having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows 
even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And 
i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.


It has been ever thus. The IDE itself is bad in this aspect. I try to 
deal with this by determining which will require the most space and 
work backwards from that.





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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Richmond via use-livecode]

I don't "cope"; I make sure that all my buttons are NOT buttons at all:

I set up a button the way I want it on whatever OS I happen to be using 
at that moment
and import a snapshot of the thing, then delete the button and use the 
image:

this guarantees buttons look the same wherever they are.

Text fields . . . ouch . . . big problem there.

On 6.10.19 18:48, Mark Wieder via use-livecode wrote:

On 10/4/19 10:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode wrote:
How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs 
having text in it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows 
even for Linux and Macos, text and such never fits in the fields.And 
i have to adjust it and maintain a stack for each OS.


It has been ever thus. The IDE itself is bad in this aspect. I try to 
deal with this by determining which will require the most space and 
work backwards from that.





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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/6/19 7:26 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode wrote:

Turns out the upgrade detached the fusion drive’s SSD from its Hard Drive.

Ouch! I didn't even realize that was possible.

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/4/19 10:50 AM, Jjs via use-livecode wrote:

How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in 
it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, 
text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a 
stack for each OS.


It has been ever thus. The IDE itself is bad in this aspect. I try to 
deal with this by determining which will require the most space and work 
backwards from that.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Jjs via use-livecode]

How do you people cope with the differences on fields and knobs having text in 
it on the different OS-es? If i only build on windows even for Linux and Macos, 
text and such never fits in the fields.And i have to adjust it and maintain a 
stack for each OS.

Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode  schreef 
op 4 oktober 2019 19:40:16 CEST:
>The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 
>
>I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to
>develop on Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm
>using some Windows specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.
>
>It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up
>Windows workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I
>prefer to have my big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I
>currently use no-machine to access Windows machines.
>
>The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me
>however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard
>to test with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often
>one needs real hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as
>emulating hardware, but I need to test on real stuff.
>
>So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk,
>but I/O. I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I
>want board slots. I want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A
>powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope to build a computation server
>someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well as handling multiple
>monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I use
>no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be
>Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with
>something I neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for
>everything if I can.) For a different machine, I might want something
>with a touch screen that I can carry around.
>
>In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.
>
>And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us
>old guys.
>
>As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I
>want to see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is
>good, but I have found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual
>Box says yes. What good is higher RPM when you can't get it into
>reverse? In general, virtualization allows me to swap out hardware or
>display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. Network configuration testing?
>No searching for switches, routers and cables. 
>
>Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see
>a big performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual
>Box 6 on Mac Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on
>MacMini. That could be my imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower,
>but it did not affect me. I typically use a LAN drive for such testing,
>anyway, unless the tests directly involve a local drive.
>
>I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual
>machines and to load on real machines. However, things seem to be
>different. Now the best way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for
>the first year, $800 for subsequent. 
>
>Dar
>Mad Scientist
>
>
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended
>specs for Windows Development computer"
>> 
>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding
>Windows hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc
>...)
>> 
>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not
>Windows only" experience:
>> 
>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally
>seen a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC
>antivirus, and similar results.
>> 
>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my
>hands dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice
>more
>> 
>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not
>bottom) laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an
>i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>> 
>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any
>extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to
>overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use
>budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>> 
>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and
>various other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent
>performa

Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Martin Koob via use-livecode]

Thanks everyone for your advice on this topic.   As a user new to Windows all 
of the discussion is helpful.  This has been a very interesting thread.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 6, 2019, at 10:30 AM, Martin Koob  wrote:
> 
> Hi Curry
> 
> Thanks for your take on my question.  I too believe in developing for the 
> lowest possible common denominator.  My MacBook Pro Retina is the 15 inch 
> early 2013 so my theory is if my Mac can handle it in the IDE  then the end 
> users will likely be able to as well as a standalone.  
> 
> Thanks for the advice re testing on actual PC hardware. I was trying to apply 
> both principles  when I bought my first budget PC but I set the Bar too low.  
> It is an Acer Aspire XC — CPU was an AMD E-Series E1-7010 Dual Core 1.5 G Hz  
> with 4 GB  RAM. My application uses  the cameraControl and Player and so the 
> foundations of those are so different on PC and Mac so I need to test on 
> hardware.  I was able to do some testing on the Acer and found the Player not 
> working as expected but I am not sure if it is the machine or LC.  But that 
> will be the subject of another post.
> 
> Thanks for the suggested specs.   
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 4, 2019, at 4:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>> mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended specs 
>> for Windows Development computer"
>> 
>> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows 
>> hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)
>> 
>> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows 
>> only" experience:
>> 
>> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen a 
>> Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, and 
>> similar results.
>> 
>> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands dirty 
>> on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more
>> 
>> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) 
>> laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip and 
>> 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
>> 
>> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any extra 
>> power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to overlook 
>> issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use budget hardware 
>> to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
>> 
>> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various other 
>> software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of your 
>> machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and chains.
>> 
>> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which 
>> felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence on 
>> your perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a system 
>> efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. (There once 
>> was a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty much broke that 
>> rule. And during those bygone years, I was proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac 
>> only.") Whatever OS you use, just realize that many everyday users are 
>> equally efficient on the other operating systems.
>> 
>> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for 
>> both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Curry Kenworthy
>> 
>> Custom Software Development
>> "Better Methods, Better Results"
>> LiveCode Training and Consulting
>> http://livecodeconsulting.com/ <http://livecodeconsulting.com/>
>> 
>> ___
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>> use-livecode@lists.runrev.com
>> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
>> preferences:
>> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-livecode
> 

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Martin Koob via use-livecode]

Hi Curry

Thanks for your take on my question.  I too believe in developing for the 
lowest possible common denominator.  My MacBook Pro Retina is the 15 inch early 
2013 so my theory is if my Mac can handle it in the IDE  then the end users 
will likely be able to as well as a standalone.  

Thanks for the advice re testing on actual PC hardware. I was trying to apply 
both principles  when I bought my first budget PC but I set the Bar too low.  
It is an Acer Aspire XC — CPU was an AMD E-Series E1-7010 Dual Core 1.5 G Hz  
with 4 GB  RAM. My application uses  the cameraControl and Player and so the 
foundations of those are so different on PC and Mac so I need to test on 
hardware.  I was able to do some testing on the Acer and found the Player not 
working as expected but I am not sure if it is the machine or LC.  But that 
will be the subject of another post.

Thanks for the suggested specs.   


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 4, 2019, at 4:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended specs 
> for Windows Development computer"
> 
> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows 
> hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)
> 
> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows 
> only" experience:
> 
> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen a Mac 
> running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, and similar 
> results.
> 
> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands dirty 
> on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more
> 
> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) 
> laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip and 8 
> GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
> 
> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any extra 
> power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to overlook 
> issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use budget hardware 
> to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
> 
> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various other 
> software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of your 
> machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and chains.
> 
> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which felt 
> so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence on your 
> perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a system 
> efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. (There once was 
> a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty much broke that rule. 
> And during those bygone years, I was proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") 
> Whatever OS you use, just realize that many everyday users are equally 
> efficient on the other operating systems.
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for 
> both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting
> http://livecodeconsulting.com/
> 
> ___
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> Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription 
> preferences:
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Martin Koob via use-livecode]

Hi JJS

I have an iMac that has the specs for a dual boot but I am reluctant to do it.  
 It has a 1 TB fusion drive and when I upgraded from Sierra to Mojave I ended 
up with a non functioning fusion drive.   I had a nice long chat with the Apple 
Support tech trying to get it working again, then I was escalated and the 
engineer had me do a couple of other things and then my Mac was bricked.  He 
was a bit embarrassed and approved a free repair at my local Mac dealer.   
Turns out the upgrade detached the fusion drive’s SSD from its Hard Drive.

It turned out well in the end but I don’t want to go through that again.

Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 3, 2019, at 1:54 PM, JJS via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Why don't you create a dual boot of your mac?
> 
> Apple itself supports it and delivers the drivers to do so.
> 
> You only need a win10 license
> 
> 
> Op 3-10-2019 om 19:48 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
>> Hi
>> 
>> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including 
>> using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross 
>> platform application for Mac and Windows.
>> 
>> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need 
>> to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>> 
>> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, 
>> speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so 
>> ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make 
>> that mistake again.
>> 
>> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don’t 
>> want to get something underpowered.
>> 
>> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Martin Koob
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Martin Koob via use-livecode]

Thanks Erik for the recommended specs.

Also thanks for the advice re virtual testing.  I have used parallels in the 
past on an earlier Mac with Windows 7,  I will have to check if my Parallels 
licence is still good.


Regards,

Martin Koob





> On Oct 3, 2019, at 2:03 PM, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I would advise this hardware:
> 
> - LGA 1152 motherboard (with PCIe ports)
> - Intel i5 processor
> - 8GB RAM or more
> - 256GB SSD or better 256GB M.2 NVMe if supported by your Mac
> 
> OR use VM's (which I am using on a 32GB Mac machine):
> 
> - Expand your current RAM in your Mac to at least 16GB or more if possible
> - Replace all mechanical HDD's with SATA SSD or even better M.2 NVMe SSD 
> (minimum 512GB)
> - Use Parallels Desktop
> 
> Just my 2 cents...
> 
> On 03/10/2019, 19:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Martin Koob via 
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
> 
>Hi
> 
>I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development 
> including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a 
> cross platform application for Mac and Windows. 
> 
>I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need 
> to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 
> 
>Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, 
> speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so 
> ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make that 
> mistake again. 
> 
>With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I 
> don’t want to get something underpowered. 
> 
>Any suggestions? What are people using?
> 
>Thanks in advance. 
> 
>Martin Koob
> 
>Sent from my iPhone
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[R.H. via use-livecode]

Windows on dedicated hardware is my choice.  Only then you really can say
that you tested on Windows. The brand of the hardware (metal) is not
important in this case. You are not confined to a closed system as with
Apple.

I am exlusively using Windows 10 and I am quite happy with it. I do not
even want more fancy staff.

Windows XP and Windows 7 are outdated. It makes no sense using outdated
systems, unsupported, probably vulnerable. Go for Windows 10, 64bit, latest
version -- regularly updated and upgraded by Microsoft.

8 MB RAM should really be minimum standard. Better are 16. Have at least
200 GB extra space on your harddrive.

The problem with LiveCode's IDE on Windows is that the script editor is not
optimized, even though improved. So, a faster computer and more memory and
a SSD are quite helpful. But I do not want to open the bug box.

And I cannot resist saying that the IDE on Windows does not provide the
user interface (even when using the local theme) that today's users expect.
That is extra work to implement modern themes (Microsoft, Google, etc.)
with expected functionality built-in -- and it should come out of the box
(in an ideal world).

Most time I spend is with user interface design when I count my developing
hours.

Also, I am now using an extra wide screen instead of two separate monitors.
I would not go back to two separate monitors. For development work, I can
only recommend an extra wide single screen --but do not buy the cheapest
model.

All customers I know use Windows. There is not really any choice.

If I purchased a server, I would go for Unix based systems. But there are
so many inexpensive providers of server space that I did not see the
immediate need.

Roland
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

The original question mentioned testing and debugging. 

I tend to develop on the Mac and test on Windows. At times I need to develop on 
Windows because there are unknowns in the environment or I'm using some Windows 
specific hardware. Especially internal hardware.

It is a big pain to have multiple programming stations, so I set up Windows 
workstations with monitors, keyboards and mice as needed. I prefer to have my 
big wide monitor on my Mac and then remote in. I currently use no-machine to 
access Windows machines.

The focus in the discussion has been on processor, RAM and disk. For me 
however, other hardware is important. That is, that which makes it hard to test 
with virtualization needs to be in the real hardware. And often one needs real 
hardware. Virtual Box has been good to me as far as emulating hardware, but I 
need to test on real stuff.

So, for me, the most important part is not so much processor-RAM-disk, but I/O. 
I want lots of USB and a variety of such, front and back. I want board slots. I 
want multiple NICs. RS-232 is a big plus. A powerful GPU is a plus, but I hope 
to build a computation server someday. Multiple kinds of video is good as well 
as handling multiple monitors. I want Bluetooth and Wifi. I want WoL. Though I 
use no-machine, I want to be able to remote desktop in, so W8.1 needs to be 
Pro. As soon as I get a computer, a customer will come up with something I 
neglected, so those slots are important. I get Pro for everything if I can.) 
For a different machine, I might want something with a touch screen that I can 
carry around.

In my last buy, I compromised. I did not get high performance or slots.

And speaking of Pro, Windows 10 Pro is, out of the box, friendly to us old guys.

As far as development on the Mac, Bootcamp does not work well for me, I want to 
see all of my screens on all of my computers. Parallels is good, but I have 
found that when Parallels and VMWare say no, Virtual Box says yes. What good is 
higher RPM when you can't get it into reverse? In general, virtualization 
allows me to swap out hardware or display sizes quickly, bing, bing, bing. 
Network configuration testing? No searching for switches, routers and cables. 

Just going by my memory (I recommend against trusting it), I do not see a big 
performance hit. I think LiveCode on Windows 10 Pro on Virtual Box 6 on Mac 
Mini runs slightly faster than LiveCode on macOS on MacMini. That could be my 
imagination. Disk I/O might be a lot slower, but it did not affect me. I 
typically use a LAN drive for such testing, anyway, unless the tests directly 
involve a local drive.

I have used MSDN Operating Systems to build a variety of virtual machines and 
to load on real machines. However, things seem to be different. Now the best 
way seems to be Visual Studio Pro, $1200 for the first year, $800 for 
subsequent. 

Dar
Mad Scientist


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended specs 
> for Windows Development computer"
> 
> (... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows 
> hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)
> 
> here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows 
> only" experience:
> 
> - Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen a Mac 
> running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, and similar 
> results.
> 
> - I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands dirty 
> on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more
> 
> - PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) 
> laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip and 8 
> GB memory, 1 TB RAM.
> 
> - The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any extra 
> power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to overlook 
> issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use budget hardware 
> to make sure software is snappy for everyone.
> 
> - Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various other 
> software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of your 
> machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and chains.
> 
> - Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which felt 
> so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence on your 
> perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a system 
> efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. (There once was 
> a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty much broke that rule. 
> And during those bygone years, I was proudly "Mac-first, but not Mac only.") 
>

Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Marty Knapp via use-livecode]

I use Parallels + Windows 10 and a while back I switched to an SSD drive - wow 
what a difference that made, especially boot up time. I could never go back to 
using a virtual machine on a standard hard drive.

Marty

> On Oct 4, 2019, at 9:33 AM, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Martin Koob wrote:
> > I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> > need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
> > environment.
> >
> > Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC—
> > processor, speed, RAM, etc.
> 
> Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a VM 
> and rarely actually needed.
> 
> I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and 
> Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, even for 
> a project I've been working on writing an interface for a client's custom 
> USB-driven hardware.
> 
> If you go metal, go cheap.  You won't be using it often anyway, and a machine 
> at or below average consumer specs helps inspire lean code that delights your 
> customers, while keeping a little extra money in your pocket for important 
> things like a nice dinner out.  CPUs a generation or two behind will still 
> give you plenty of useful lifespan, yet are often discounted as most folks 
> clamor for the Latest and Greatest.
> 
> 4GB RAM is a reasonable minimum for a testing machine.  Almost nothing worth 
> using ships with less these days.
> 
> If you do use a separate physical machine, I can't say enough good things 
> about the value of having your work files and LC Plugins folder synced via 
> Nextcloud or other folder syncing system (Dropbox et al). This will automate 
> transfers between machines, saving a lot of the annoyance of manual copies.  
> And for my Plugins folder it's been awesome - no matter where I'm working I 
> always know I have my latest toolkit.
> 
> 
> All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a few 
> years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used anything else 
> since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used Parallels I found 
> VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction of the time.
> 
> With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
> hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the test OS 
> has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.
> 
> Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 16 GB 
> feels luxurious.
> 
> Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is the 
> present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't matter for 
> testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be useful to spin up 
> VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the action is today, and 
> tomorrow.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Gaskin
> Fourth World Systems
> Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
> 
> ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com
> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Just to add something here. Using an SSD instead of an HDD will make a crappy 
computer run like a decent one. Hard Drive data transfer is the single most 
important factor in the speed of a computer. Some might say memory, but more 
memory makes it faster only because the HDD needs to be accessed less for 
Virtual Memory, hence making my point for me. 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 09:33 , Richard Gaskin via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Martin Koob wrote:
> > I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> > need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
> > environment.
> >
> > Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC—
> > processor, speed, RAM, etc.
> 
> Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a VM 
> and rarely actually needed.
> 
> I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and 
> Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, even for 
> a project I've been working on writing an interface for a client's custom 
> USB-driven hardware.

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Martin Koob wrote:
> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows
> environment.
>
> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC—
> processor, speed, RAM, etc.

Running Windows on metal is nice, but not very convenient compared to a 
VM and rarely actually needed.


I keep a couple machines here with Windows installed as boot (Win7 and 
Win10), and I can't recall the last time I needed to test with them, 
even for a project I've been working on writing an interface for a 
client's custom USB-driven hardware.


If you go metal, go cheap.  You won't be using it often anyway, and a 
machine at or below average consumer specs helps inspire lean code that 
delights your customers, while keeping a little extra money in your 
pocket for important things like a nice dinner out.  CPUs a generation 
or two behind will still give you plenty of useful lifespan, yet are 
often discounted as most folks clamor for the Latest and Greatest.


4GB RAM is a reasonable minimum for a testing machine.  Almost nothing 
worth using ships with less these days.


If you do use a separate physical machine, I can't say enough good 
things about the value of having your work files and LC Plugins folder 
synced via Nextcloud or other folder syncing system (Dropbox et al). 
This will automate transfers between machines, saving a lot of the 
annoyance of manual copies.  And for my Plugins folder it's been awesome 
- no matter where I'm working I always know I have my latest toolkit.



All that said, I've enjoyed the convenience of VMs for decades, and a 
few years ago Mark Wieder suggested I try VirtualBox - never used 
anything else since.  It's free and open source, and when I last used 
Parallels I found VirtualBox was able to restore sessions in a fraction 
of the time.


With a VM you can share the Clipboard across OSes, as well as folders, 
hardware, and more.  Being able to copy code from my dev OS into the 
test OS has been a godsend of a convenience more times than I can count.


Running a second OS within your main OS will eat some RAM;  Min. 8 GB, 
16 GB feels luxurious.


Whether virtual or physical, the OS choice is no choice: Windows 10 is 
the present and future of Windows.  What I personally prefer doesn't 
matter for testing.  I need what my customers use, and while it can be 
useful to spin up VMs with older Windows versions, Win10 is where the 
action is today, and tomorrow.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

Tell your girlfriend/wife that you generally like her, but she has annoying 
issues. I hope the couch is comfy. LOL! 

Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 08:35 , Ralph DiMola via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> Agreed... I held out to the bitter end with XP(security) then Win 7(EOL
> 1/2020) So I went to 10.
> Whilst Win 10 does have its annoying issues(forced updates) I generally like
> it. 


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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 10/4/19 1:55 AM, Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode wrote:

PS. When "debugging" your antivirus, system settings, and other software 
to make your machine operate more smoothly, it's helpful to open the 
Task Manager and sort the Processes list by Disk. You'll discover the 
issues faster that way. (In previous years, I usually would have sorted 
by Memory or CPU.) Once you get those issues sorted out, your 
cross-platform experience will be very different.


Or do yourself a favor and upgrade to Process Lasso. The free version 
was so impressive that we bought a lifetime license ($36!) some years 
ago and never looked back.


https://bitsum.com/

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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RE: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Ralph DiMola via use-livecode]

Bob,
Agreed... I held out to the bitter end with XP(security) then Win 7(EOL
1/2020) So I went to 10.
Whilst Win 10 does have its annoying issues(forced updates) I generally like
it. I set updates to ask me before updating so I/ME/Mine can decide when to
install. I now run Win 10 Hyper-V with a few VMs with no problems since
2016. 10 is my new XP/7. I would like to have XP and also not get striped
searched at the airport but 10s security and features outweigh my love for
XP and not getting high-jacked outweighs my nostalgia of breezing through
the airport. Change is both good and bad but I flow in the direction of the
least safe resistance.

Ralph DiMola
IT Director
Evergreen Information Services
rdim...@evergreeninfo.net

-Original Message-
From: use-livecode [mailto:use-livecode-boun...@lists.runrev.com] On Behalf
Of Bob Sneidar via use-livecode
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2019 11:09 AM
To: How to use LiveCode
Cc: Bob Sneidar
Subject: Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer. 

If Windows were girlfriends...

I used to hate Windows, back before 1995. I swore I'd never have anything to
do with her, always pretending to be pretty, but it was just a mask over top
of that ugly DOS. Windows 2000... nuther MEH! BORING! 

XP! Now there was an improvement! I actually LIKED XP for a lot of reasons.
Until the "compromising" of MD5 encryption. I could never share anything
intimate with her again. Never mention ME in my presence. EVER! I swear I
never touched her! 

Then there was Windows 7. A, seven. The Hebrew number for Completeness!
How good and sweet that relationship was! I thought it would never end. I
was a changed man. I could love again! 

Then one day Daddy Microsoft busted the door down, took her by the hand,
hauled her out the door and told me I would never see her again. Her ugly
younger sister, Vista stayed behind to comfort me. That turned out badly. I
stopped answering her text messages. She changed her name to Windows 8
thinking I wouldn't notice. Yeah... no. 

Now I'm with Windows 10. Not what I would have asked for, but it's all
that's left to me now. Weighs too much, moves too slow, looks bland, Very
few curves, and is always making me work harder to get what I want from her.
Keeps second guessing me, asking me if I really want to do what I just told
her I wanted to do. Then asks again just to be sure. Sometimes doesn't do it
anyway. Claims it would be "dangerous" and "damaging".  

I will always pine for my Windows 7. I could click her start button and get
her going right away! And I would get exactly what I expected to get. Now, I
have to search for what I want, and most of the time it's suggested I go
elsewhere, like the internet to get it. 

:-)
Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 01:34 , Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode
 wrote:
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for
both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting


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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

If Windows were girlfriends...

I used to hate Windows, back before 1995. I swore I'd never have anything to do 
with her, always pretending to be pretty, but it was just a mask over top of 
that ugly DOS. Windows 2000... nuther MEH! BORING! 

XP! Now there was an improvement! I actually LIKED XP for a lot of reasons. 
Until the "compromising" of MD5 encryption. I could never share anything 
intimate with her again. Never mention ME in my presence. EVER! I swear I never 
touched her! 

Then there was Windows 7. A, seven. The Hebrew number for Completeness! How 
good and sweet that relationship was! I thought it would never end. I was a 
changed man. I could love again! 

Then one day Daddy Microsoft busted the door down, took her by the hand, hauled 
her out the door and told me I would never see her again. Her ugly younger 
sister, Vista stayed behind to comfort me. That turned out badly. I stopped 
answering her text messages. She changed her name to Windows 8 thinking I 
wouldn't notice. Yeah... no. 

Now I'm with Windows 10. Not what I would have asked for, but it's all that's 
left to me now. Weighs too much, moves too slow, looks bland, Very few curves, 
and is always making me work harder to get what I want from her. Keeps second 
guessing me, asking me if I really want to do what I just told her I wanted to 
do. Then asks again just to be sure. Sometimes doesn't do it anyway. Claims it 
would be "dangerous" and "damaging".  

I will always pine for my Windows 7. I could click her start button and get her 
going right away! And I would get exactly what I expected to get. Now, I have 
to search for what I want, and most of the time it's suggested I go elsewhere, 
like the internet to get it. 

:-)
Bob S


> On Oct 4, 2019, at 01:34 , Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for 
> both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Curry Kenworthy
> 
> Custom Software Development
> "Better Methods, Better Results"
> LiveCode Training and Consulting


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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

Me:


Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.


Should have said:


Currently an i5 chip and 8 GB memory, 1 TB hard drive.


PS. When "debugging" your antivirus, system settings, and other software 
to make your machine operate more smoothly, it's helpful to open the 
Task Manager and sort the Processes list by Disk. You'll discover the 
issues faster that way. (In previous years, I usually would have sorted 
by Memory or CPU.) Once you get those issues sorted out, your 
cross-platform experience will be very different.


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Curry Kenworthy via use-livecode]

For anyone truly interested in the original question of "Recommended 
specs for Windows Development computer"


(... as opposed to any OS-partisan virtue signaling, or avoiding Windows 
hardware, or maintaining a single computer as the rule, etc ...)


here's my take, from many years of often "Windows first, but not Windows 
only" experience:


- Biggest OS difference/biggest factor: anti-virus. I've literally seen 
a Mac running with software techniques similar to today's PC antivirus, 
and similar results.


- I don't trust my PC to run Mac, nor my Mac to run PC. I get my hands 
dirty on both, with dedicated hardware for each. You notice more


- PC doesn't require a huge investment. I use a budget (but not bottom) 
laptop with as much hard disk and RAM as possible. Currently an i5 chip 
and 8 GB memory, 1 TB RAM.


- The specs I listed are quite adequate for professional LC dev. Any 
extra power feels great, but remember that it also could cause you to 
overlook issues affecting some of your end users. I intentionally use 
budget hardware to make sure software is snappy for everyone.


- Again, with Windows 10 it's all about managing antivirus and various 
other software/settings to be allowed to use the inherent performance of 
your machine. The power is in there, but you have to remove the ball and 
chains.


- Any OS-partisan biases (in other words reliving the 80s and 90s, which 
felt so good) will tend to be confirmed by their own cognitive influence 
on your perception of your limited experiences on another OS. Using a 
system efficiently takes experience and learning, built into habits. 
(There once was a system called MacOS that for a number of years pretty 
much broke that rule. And during those bygone years, I was proudly 
"Mac-first, but not Mac only.") Whatever OS you use, just realize that 
many everyday users are equally efficient on the other operating systems.


I like having and using both almost daily, as long as I'm developing for 
both. And developing for both is specifically how I ended up right here! :)


Best wishes,

Curry Kenworthy

Custom Software Development
"Better Methods, Better Results"
LiveCode Training and Consulting
http://livecodeconsulting.com/

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Bob Sneidar via use-livecode]

I'm curious how a standalone performs. I have a standalone that saves stacks as 
properties are changes, and I am finding that while Windows direct host is 
slower than a MacOS for a lot of things, Paralles (using Shared Profile I 
admit) is several times slower, especially when saving the stack. I know it's 
the saving because I can see the tilde version of the stack appear, sit  there 
for way longer than shoud be acceptable, then when the tilde version goes away, 
I get control of the app back. No big deal as I am the only one who uses it 
this way, but it makes testing in Parallels almost unbearable. No joy using the 
Windows LC IDE either. 

Bob S


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 14:17 , Colin Holgate via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> For my job I need to frequently test things in Windows 10, and I have been 
> doing that using Parallels. It works really well, but sometimes I need to do 
> hardware tests, and so I had Bootcamp added as well.


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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Colin Holgate via use-livecode]

For my job I need to frequently test things in Windows 10, and I have been 
doing that using Parallels. It works really well, but sometimes I need to do 
hardware tests, and so I had Bootcamp added as well.

I was curious how well it performs, and so downloaded a benchmark test program. 
Users who have submitted their results range from a score of 200, up to around 
5,500. I tested my work MacBook Pro as a Mac, Windows 10 in Parallels, and 
Windows 10 in Bootcamp. Parallels managed 1100, macOS was 1900, and Bootcamp 
was 2300. My Mac pretending to be a PC worked better than my Mac as a Mac, and 
also better than about 75% of the real PCs in the list of results.


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 12:31 PM, JJS via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> yes you can use virtualbox or whatever but it will be slower, running an OS 
> in an OS, or:
> 
> You install bootcamp if you only need Win10: read this 
> https://support.apple.com/nl-nl/HT201468 it's in dutch but you can find the 
> English version yourself i think
> 
> then bootcamp will install all needed drivers so win10 will run smoothly on 
> your mac (note that your fan might blow some harder, windows is resource 
> hungry)
> 
> Or:
> 
> you go to https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind Now this is a bit more difficult 
> but very good doable, some IT people prefer this.
> 
> ReFind will create a new bootloader (something like GRUB but better with nice 
> icons)
> 
> With Refind you are also able to get Linux on it too, so you could create a 
> triple boot
> 
> 
> If you want something reversed --> make a mac from a windows/Linux PC, then 
> you need to go to https://tonymacx86.com and use Clover as bootloader. Note 
> this is harder, and you need to have a mac to download the OS on a stick.
> 
> Op 3-10-2019 om 20:13 schreef Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode:
>> I have used Parallels, and am now also using Virtual Box on my Mac. I use 
>> No-Machine to connect to hardware Windows test platforms, and plan to use it 
>> for other platforms (Linux, iOS, Android, Raspberry Pi). I use MiniWoL to 
>> wake one machine and plan add Wake-on-LAN to another Windows machine. Even 
>> when testing on Windows, I edit on Mac and use a network drive for projects. 
>> If need be, I sit at the Windows hardware.
>> 
>>> On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development 
>>> including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a 
>>> cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>>> 
>>> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need 
>>> to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>>> 
>>> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, 
>>> speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so 
>>> ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make 
>>> that mistake again.
>>> 
>>> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I 
>>> don’t want to get something underpowered.
>>> 
>>> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> 
>>> Martin Koob
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> ___
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>> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JJS via use-livecode]

yes you can use virtualbox or whatever but it will be slower, running an 
OS in an OS, or:


You install bootcamp if you only need Win10: read this 
https://support.apple.com/nl-nl/HT201468 it's in dutch but you can find 
the English version yourself i think


then bootcamp will install all needed drivers so win10 will run smoothly 
on your mac (note that your fan might blow some harder, windows is 
resource hungry)


Or:

you go to https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind Now this is a bit more 
difficult but very good doable, some IT people prefer this.


ReFind will create a new bootloader (something like GRUB but better with 
nice icons)


With Refind you are also able to get Linux on it too, so you could 
create a triple boot



If you want something reversed --> make a mac from a windows/Linux PC, 
then you need to go to https://tonymacx86.com and use Clover as 
bootloader. Note this is harder, and you need to have a mac to download 
the OS on a stick.


Op 3-10-2019 om 20:13 schreef Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode:

I have used Parallels, and am now also using Virtual Box on my Mac. I use 
No-Machine to connect to hardware Windows test platforms, and plan to use it 
for other platforms (Linux, iOS, Android, Raspberry Pi). I use MiniWoL to wake 
one machine and plan add Wake-on-LAN to another Windows machine. Even when 
testing on Windows, I edit on Mac and use a network drive for projects. If need 
be, I sit at the Windows hardware.


On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
 wrote:

Hi

I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including 
using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform 
application for Mac and Windows.

I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to 
have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.

Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, speed, 
RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for 
that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make that mistake 
again.

With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don’t 
want to get something underpowered.

Any suggestions? What are people using?

Thanks in advance.

Martin Koob

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Dar Scott Consulting via use-livecode]

I have used Parallels, and am now also using Virtual Box on my Mac. I use 
No-Machine to connect to hardware Windows test platforms, and plan to use it 
for other platforms (Linux, iOS, Android, Raspberry Pi). I use MiniWoL to wake 
one machine and plan add Wake-on-LAN to another Windows machine. Even when 
testing on Windows, I edit on Mac and use a network drive for projects. If need 
be, I sit at the Windows hardware. 

> On Oct 3, 2019, at 11:48 AM, Martin Koob via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including 
> using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross 
> platform application for Mac and Windows. 
> 
> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to 
> have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 
> 
> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, 
> speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so 
> ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make that 
> mistake again. 
> 
> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don’t 
> want to get something underpowered. 
> 
> Any suggestions? What are people using?
> 
> Thanks in advance. 
> 
> Martin Koob
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Dalton Calford via use-livecode]

Try Vmware Fusion - you can run windows without needing a dual boot - you
just need a windows 10 licence.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 14:04, Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode <
use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I would advise this hardware:
>
> - LGA 1152 motherboard (with PCIe ports)
> - Intel i5 processor
> - 8GB RAM or more
> - 256GB SSD or better 256GB M.2 NVMe if supported by your Mac
>
> OR use VM's (which I am using on a 32GB Mac machine):
>
> - Expand your current RAM in your Mac to at least 16GB or more if possible
> - Replace all mechanical HDD's with SATA SSD or even better M.2 NVMe SSD
> (minimum 512GB)
> - Use Parallels Desktop
>
> Just my 2 cents...
>
> On 03/10/2019, 19:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Martin Koob via
> use-livecode"  use-livecode@lists.runrev.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development
> including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a
> cross platform application for Mac and Windows.
>
> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but
> need to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>
> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC—
> processor, speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a
> year or so ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want
> to make that mistake again.
>
> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I
> don’t want to get something underpowered.
>
> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Martin Koob
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
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>
>
>
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Erik Beugelaar via use-livecode]

Hi,

I would advise this hardware:

- LGA 1152 motherboard (with PCIe ports)
- Intel i5 processor
- 8GB RAM or more
- 256GB SSD or better 256GB M.2 NVMe if supported by your Mac

OR use VM's (which I am using on a 32GB Mac machine):

- Expand your current RAM in your Mac to at least 16GB or more if possible
- Replace all mechanical HDD's with SATA SSD or even better M.2 NVMe SSD 
(minimum 512GB)
- Use Parallels Desktop

Just my 2 cents...

On 03/10/2019, 19:49, "use-livecode on behalf of Martin Koob via use-livecode" 
 wrote:

Hi

I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development 
including using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a 
cross platform application for Mac and Windows. 

I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need 
to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 

Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, 
speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago 
for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make that 
mistake again. 

With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I 
don’t want to get something underpowered. 

Any suggestions? What are people using?

Thanks in advance. 

Martin Koob

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JB via use-livecode]

Do you have a link for info on how to do that?
I will be wanting to test on Windows too and
was thinking I needed to use a emulator like
Parallels.

JB


> On Oct 3, 2019, at 10:54 AM, JJS via use-livecode 
>  wrote:
> 
> Why don't you create a dual boot of your mac?
> 
> Apple itself supports it and delivers the drivers to do so.
> 
> You only need a win10 license
> 
> 
> Op 3-10-2019 om 19:48 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:
>> Hi
>> 
>> I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including 
>> using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross 
>> platform application for Mac and Windows.
>> 
>> I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need 
>> to have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.
>> 
>> Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, 
>> speed, RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so 
>> ago for that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make 
>> that mistake again.
>> 
>> With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don’t 
>> want to get something underpowered.
>> 
>> Any suggestions? What are people using?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Martin Koob
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
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Re: Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[JJS via use-livecode]

Why don't you create a dual boot of your mac?

Apple itself supports it and delivers the drivers to do so.

You only need a win10 license


Op 3-10-2019 om 19:48 schreef Martin Koob via use-livecode:

Hi

I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including 
using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform 
application for Mac and Windows.

I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to 
have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment.

Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, speed, 
RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for 
that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make that mistake 
again.

With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don’t 
want to get something underpowered.

Any suggestions? What are people using?

Thanks in advance.

Martin Koob

Sent from my iPhone

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Recommended specs for Windows Development computer.

[Martin Koob via use-livecode]

Hi

I need to buy a new desktop PC to be used for LiveCode development including 
using the new camera control and the player as I am working on a cross platform 
application for Mac and Windows. 

I have been developing the application  on on a Mac to this point but need to 
have the PC for testing and debugging in a Windows environment. 

Being a Mac guy I am not sure what I should look for in a PC— processor, speed, 
RAM, etc. I bought a cheap desktop  PC, an Acer AXC-230 a year or so ago for 
that purpose but that is painfully slow. So I don’t want to make that mistake 
again. 

With the comments on speed problems on Windows in the earlier thread I don’t 
want to get something underpowered. 

Any suggestions? What are people using?

Thanks in advance. 

Martin Koob

Sent from my iPhone

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