Re: template stacks

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/28/2017 10:33 AM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:


And again, those refinements to the mobile-specific items in the New
Stack menu are a separate matter from settable dimensions for the
Default size.  In practice, new and old users alike will learn as soon
as they start laying out their controls that they will need different
sizes for different windows.


Indeed - they are - I perhaps conflated the two. However, it has 
produced an interesting point of dicussion...


If we can agree that it does make *some* sense to have preconfigured 
sizes in the New Stack menu (for the sake of argument at least - it is 
only real use in a measurable environment which can give us the numbers 
to know whether it does or does not make sense) - what could we do there 
to make it better. i.e. Provide the facility, without the downsides 
which you suggest (which are all entirely valid!).


I've taken a middle route for the Stack Factory in PowerTools:

In addition to a dozen or so predefined sizes there's a menuItem for 
'custom'. That brings up a dialog box that allows you to select the 
desired height and width. And then those values are stored in the 
preferences file. After that point, in addition to the 'custom' menuItem 
there is a 'Most Recent' menuItem for the value you stored in the custom 
setting, so that you don't have to enter them again next time.


--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com

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Re: template stacks

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Richmond Mathewson wrote:

> On 7/28/17 7:01 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> Am I the only one who doesn't make all of his stacks the same size? :)
>
> No, you're not . . .
>
> *BUT*, imagine working for an employer who had fixated on a set size;
> things would be a lot quicker if everytime one fired up LiveCode to
> knock of a *prototype* (hey, haven't heard that word for a long, long
> time) .

But it's probably not a blank stack they're looking for.  Cloning a 
stack already prepared with the relevant properties, scripts, and 
objects would be much more efficient.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: template stacks

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-28 20:12, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

On 7/28/17 12:35 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-28 19:33, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat
of the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a
spelling error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a
more structured approach to professionals.


Heh - that clearly should have been 'preferences' :)


Autocorrect, I really hate your shirt.


Haha - if only it were autocorrect in this instance (it generally is if 
sending from my iPhone).


In this case (on my laptop) I think it was because I was thinking about 
the next paragraph whilst still writing that one. So more a 
buffering/data transport problem - my fingers are clearly connected to 
my brain by UDP and not TCP/IP ;)


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: template stacks

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

Can we all have free T-shirts with "*the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up'**"
on them ?

Love, Richmond.
*
On 7/28/17 9:12 pm, J. Landman Gay via use-livecode wrote:

On 7/28/17 12:35 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-28 19:33, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat
of the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a
spelling error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a
more structured approach to professionals.


Heh - that clearly should have been 'preferences' :)


Autocorrect, I really hate your shirt.



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Re: template stacks

[J. Landman Gay via use-livecode]

On 7/28/17 12:35 PM, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

On 2017-07-28 19:33, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat
of the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a
spelling error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a
more structured approach to professionals.


Heh - that clearly should have been 'preferences' :)


Autocorrect, I really hate your shirt.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jac...@hyperactivesw.com
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com

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Re: template stacks

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

On 7/28/17 7:01 pm, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

Am I the only one who doesn't make all of his stacks the same size? :)


No, you're not . . .

*BUT*, imagine working for an employer who had fixated on a set size; 
things would be a lot quicker if everytime one fired up LiveCode to knock
of a *prototype* (hey, haven't heard that word for a long, long time) . 
. . .


I generally don't care what size they're created at.  I resize them as 
I work by dragging the edges, as users do.


In those cases where I need a fixed size, the specific dimensions are 
rarely discernible in advance, something I'll need to figure out after 
I've done the layout.


In the rarer case where I need multiple stacks of a specific size, 
chances are I need more common elements than just size, so I'll make 
one how I need it and then clone it.


But those seem pretty rare to me.  On desktop my windows tend to be 
different sizes, and on mobile it's important that they be responsive 
to any screen size; in either case the specific dimensions at the 
moment of creation seem of little value.




Richmond.
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Re: template stacks

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-28 19:33, Mark Waddingham via use-livecode wrote:

That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat
of the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a
spelling error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a
more structured approach to professionals.


Heh - that clearly should have been 'preferences' :)

Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: template stacks

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-28 19:20, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

I haven't suggested we get rid of the device-oriented sizes, only
questioning the utility of creating and maintaining a prefs setting
for the Default size.


Heh - well I perhaps got the wrong end of the stick of this thread then 
:)



We already have prefs for controls so maybe it doesn't matter so much.
But the prefs file has become such a source of pervasive brittleness
(how often is ditching the prefs file presented as the answer to a
surprisingly wide range of reported issues?) I just find myself
increasingly pondering whether some of these things need to be
preferences at all.


Geez - tell me about it! Seriously we know its a problem. Like a fair 
few other problems, from the surface it seems like 'it should be easy to 
fix' but when you start pulling on that bit of string, you find it is 
almost never ending (the term 'Yak-Shave' springs to mind).


That being said Ali has been looking at this - we don't want a repeat of 
the 8.1.6-RC-2 'balls-up' - and that was entirely down to a spelling 
error which *perhaps* would not have happened had we had a more 
structured approach to professionals.


As long as preferences are done in a structured manner and you choose 
sensible defaults for them all, then there is no harm in having a lot of 
them. Indeed, I could take Sublime Text as an example. It has a huge 
array of preference settings - however, they have chosen sensible 
defaults for all of them, and they are really easy to modify (they are 
all stored in a JSON file - per user).


Indeed, I'd perhaps say that having fine control (via preferences) over 
all things where a human had to make an explicit choice in design turns 
a good tool into a great tool - particularly for those that consider 
them 'professional' in some manner or means. It allows them to tailor 
the environment to their explicit needs - as they understand more of 
what the environment can do.


Failing to provide such an ability means that you end up appealing to 
the 'lowest common denominator' in some sense - which might be fine when 
you start out in any tool, but as you mature you generally find that 
things start to irk. And as things start to irk, the tool becomes less 
enjoyable to use.



I see good value in providing a general size for phones and another
for tablets.  Having those available in the New Stack submenu is not a
bad thing at all.

Rather than dropping those altogether (which I've never advocated), it
seems more helpful to the new user that we take full advantage of the
opportunity to communicate up front just how useful and flexible
LiveCode is.

One of LC's greatest strengths is the remarkable job you and the rest
of the team do for multi-platform support.  So it seems a shame to
convey to the new user that LiveCode is for iOS exclusively (the only
options provided in the New Stack menu are brand-specific).


Yes - I agree - this is just something we haven't got around to sorting 
out yet. (Okay so it might be a 'simple' thing, however in a sea of 
'simple' things, one still only has so much time so one has to 
prioritise).



And again, those refinements to the mobile-specific items in the New
Stack menu are a separate matter from settable dimensions for the
Default size.  In practice, new and old users alike will learn as soon
as they start laying out their controls that they will need different
sizes for different windows.


Indeed - they are - I perhaps conflated the two. However, it has 
produced an interesting point of dicussion...


If we can agree that it does make *some* sense to have preconfigured 
sizes in the New Stack menu (for the sake of argument at least - it is 
only real use in a measurable environment which can give us the numbers 
to know whether it does or does not make sense) - what could we do there 
to make it better. i.e. Provide the facility, without the downsides 
which you suggest (which are all entirely valid!).


Warmest Regards

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: template stacks

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Mark Waddingham wrote:

> On 2017-07-28 18:01, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:
>> But those seem pretty rare to me.  On desktop my windows tend to be
>> different sizes, and on mobile it's important that they be responsive
>> to any screen size; in either case the specific dimensions at the
>> moment of creation seem of little value.
>
> All of this is very true... However, Richard, how long have you been
> designing/programming/building apps for?

I don't matter.  What matters is how long a new user has been using 
software to want to begin making it.  It doesn't takes long to observe 
that on desktop windows are most frequently different sizes, and mobile 
devices come in different sizes.


I haven't suggested we get rid of the device-oriented sizes, only 
questioning the utility of creating and maintaining a prefs setting for 
the Default size.


We already have prefs for controls so maybe it doesn't matter so much. 
But the prefs file has become such a source of pervasive brittleness 
(how often is ditching the prefs file presented as the answer to a 
surprisingly wide range of reported issues?) I just find myself 
increasingly pondering whether some of these things need to be 
preferences at all.


I won't bother me one way or another, since like Klaus and Mark Wieder I 
make new stacks from a custom plug-in.  If there are enough folks who 
find it valuable to makes desktop windows of a specific size, go for it. 
 I just don't see many apps that need that, so no matter what size the 
stack happens to be created at, most of the time they'll resize it as 
they work.  It doesn't take a seasoned professional to see when you've 
run out of room in a window. :)



> A new user coming to a programming environment (of any kind) is
> usually presented with a wealth of choices. Every choice which can
> at least be parameterised / or constrained as the first step makes
> things 'easier' (in some sense).
>
> This is particularly pertinent to mobile - for sure, all apps should
> be able to adapt to all screen sizes. However, in reality when you
> start out you have to choose one size. Hence the options in the New
> Stack menu.

I see good value in providing a general size for phones and another for 
tablets.  Having those available in the New Stack submenu is not a bad 
thing at all.


Rather than dropping those altogether (which I've never advocated), it 
seems more helpful to the new user that we take full advantage of the 
opportunity to communicate up front just how useful and flexible 
LiveCode is.


One of LC's greatest strengths is the remarkable job you and the rest of 
the team do for multi-platform support.  So it seems a shame to convey 
to the new user that LiveCode is for iOS exclusively (the only options 
provided in the New Stack menu are brand-specific).


Another great thing your team has done is provide wonderful support for 
resolution independence, with good resize messaging for most aops and 
even fullScreenMode for easy implementation of presentation-style apps. 
These allow us to make one good UI that'll work great on all phones or 
tablets.  But rather than guide the user to how we actually do things, 
the Neew Stack menu items imply that they'll need to slavishly copy 
their layouts among any number of device-specific sizes.  Experienced 
users don't do that, and a new user won't stick around long enough to 
become an experienced user if they feel that's what they have to do.


LiveCode is powerful and flexible.  Let's celebrate that in ways that 
guide the user to good practice though enticingly useful UI options.


And again, those refinements to the mobile-specific items in the New 
Stack menu are a separate matter from settable dimensions for the 
Default size.  In practice, new and old users alike will learn as soon 
as they start laying out their controls that they will need different 
sizes for different windows.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: template stacks

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-28 18:01, Richard Gaskin via use-livecode wrote:

But those seem pretty rare to me.  On desktop my windows tend to be
different sizes, and on mobile it's important that they be responsive
to any screen size; in either case the specific dimensions at the
moment of creation seem of little value.


All of this is very true... However, Richard, how long have you been 
designing/programming/building apps for?


A new user coming to a programming environment (of any kind) is usually 
presented with a wealth of choices. Every choice which can at least be 
parameterised / or constrained as the first step makes things 'easier' 
(in some sense).


This is particularly pertinent to mobile - for sure, all apps should be 
able to adapt to all screen sizes. However, in reality when you start 
out you have to choose one size. Hence the options in the New Stack 
menu. It isn't perfect, but at least means a brand new user has some 
chance of choosing a size which will actually fit pixel-for-pixel on the 
device they have next to them to play with.


Now, that menu is not perfect - we know its not - you've pointed that 
out to us often enough ;)


However, we are now actively involved in a process of trying to evaluate 
what 'first-run' things do actually (measurably) make a difference. I'm 
sure that particular menu will be the subject of such 'tests' at some 
point in the process :)


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps


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Re: template stacks

[Richard Gaskin via use-livecode]

Am I the only one who doesn't make all of his stacks the same size? :)

I generally don't care what size they're created at.  I resize them as I 
work by dragging the edges, as users do.


In those cases where I need a fixed size, the specific dimensions are 
rarely discernible in advance, something I'll need to figure out after 
I've done the layout.


In the rarer case where I need multiple stacks of a specific size, 
chances are I need more common elements than just size, so I'll make one 
how I need it and then clone it.


But those seem pretty rare to me.  On desktop my windows tend to be 
different sizes, and on mobile it's important that they be responsive to 
any screen size; in either case the specific dimensions at the moment of 
creation seem of little value.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Systems
 Software Design and Development for the Desktop, Mobile, and the Web
 
 ambassa...@fourthworld.comhttp://www.FourthWorld.com

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Re: template stacks

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hallo Hermann,

> Am 28.07.2017 um 17:18 schrieb hh via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> Of course my "look-up" in the IDE:
> 
>  revIDENewMainstack max(,400),max(,400)
> 
> is quick and dirty compared to the clever plugin-solution of Klaus:
> http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2017-July/239883.html

well, that code is from my "tools2" palette I created in the old MetaCard days
about 15 years ago, when there was no revIDE stuff available! :-D

> Sorry Klaus. I overlooked your post. I really write too much and read
> too fast here. I'll better stop it now for a couple of months or so ...

Hey, hey, no need of any excuse really. :-)


Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
http://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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Re: template stacks

[Mark Wieder via use-livecode]

On 07/28/2017 02:50 AM, Klaus major-k via use-livecode wrote:


Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one
can accommodate one's own sizes?


not permanently, since this will be gone with every new version of LC.

But why not create a plug-in? Nothing easier that that:
Create a stack


Or...
you might find that this is already built into the stack factory feature 
of PowerTools.


http://ahsoftware.net/PowerTools/PowerTools_Objects.lc

--
 Mark Wieder
 ahsoftw...@gmail.com


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Re: template stacks

[Brian Milby via use-livecode]

 
 

 Default dimension is 400 (missing value) but if specified then 101 would be 
the smallest (if pHeight  >  100 then...)
 

 
 

 
 
>  
> On Jul 28, 2017 at 10:06 AM,   (mailto:use-livecode@lists.runrev.com)>  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
>  Forget to remark: revIDENewMainstack 40,30 = revIDENewMainstack 400,400 
> because revIDENewMainstack yourWidth,yourHeight sets new width to the maximum 
> of yourWidth and 400 sets new height to the maximum of yourHeight and 400 
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>
>  
 
 
 
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Re: template stacks

[hh via use-livecode]

Of course my "look-up" in the IDE:

  revIDENewMainstack max(,400),max(,400)

is quick and dirty compared to the clever plugin-solution of Klaus:

http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-livecode/2017-July/239883.html

Sorry Klaus. I overlooked your post. I really write too much and read
too fast here. I'll better stop it now for a couple of months or so ...

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Re: template stacks

[hh via use-livecode]

Forget to remark:

  revIDENewMainstack 40,30 = revIDENewMainstack 400,400

because

revIDENewMainstack yourWidth,yourHeight

sets new width to the maximum of yourWidth and 400
sets new height to the maximum of yourHeight and 400

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Re: template stacks

[hh via use-livecode]

> Richmond wrote:
> From LiveCode 8.0 upwards when one wants a new stack one is given a 
> menu of choices for iPads, iPhones and so on.
> Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one can accommodate
> one's own sizes?

Just type into the messageBox

  revIDENewMainstack ,

for example:

  revIDENewMainstack 400,900
  revIDENewMainstack sqrt(1600),30^2

LiveCode is so wonderful ;-)


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Re: template stacks

[Mark Waddingham via use-livecode]

On 2017-07-28 11:30, Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode wrote:
From LiveCode 8.0 upwards when one wants a new stack one is given a 
menu

of choices for iPads, iPhones and so on.

Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one
can accommodate one's own sizes?


That is perhaps something we could add to preferences so you could 
configure... Feel free to file an enhancement request for it in the 
quality center :)


Warmest Regards,

Mark.

--
Mark Waddingham ~ m...@livecode.com ~ http://www.livecode.com/
LiveCode: Everyone can create apps

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Re: template stacks

[Klaus major-k via use-livecode]

Hi Richmond,

> Am 28.07.2017 um 11:30 schrieb Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode 
> :
> 
> From LiveCode 8.0 upwards when one wants a new stack one is given a menu
> of choices for iPads, iPhones and so on.
> 
> Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one
> can accommodate one's own sizes?

not permanently, since this will be gone with every new version of LC.

But why not create a plug-in? Nothing easier that that:
Create a stack
Add a pulldown menu (or whtever menu-button you like)
Put this into the menuitems (text of button)
100,100
200,200
400,400
etc. for all wanted sizes, you get the picture

And this is the script for that menubutton:

on menupick which
set the width of the templatestack to item 1 of which
set the height of the templatestack to item 2 of which

##set the loc of the templatestack to the screenloc

## Set some important props first:
set the alwaysbuffer of the templatestack to TRUE
set the destroystack of the templatestack to TRUE
set the destroywindow of the templatestack to TRUE
set the resizable of the templatestack to TRUE
create stack

## Always clean up!
reset the templatestack
end menupick

Put it into you LC plugin folder and that's it! :-)

> Richmond.

Best

Klaus

--
Klaus Major
http://www.major-k.de
kl...@major-k.de


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template stacks

[Richmond Mathewson via use-livecode]

From LiveCode 8.0 upwards when one wants a new stack one is given a menu
of choices for iPads, iPhones and so on.

Is there a way to edit that menu PERMANENTLY so one
can accommodate one's own sizes?

Richmond.
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