RE: OT: Computer Science in today's market
If what your doing involves a GUI and end users, I wouldn't worry too much. Even the programming itself is difficult to outsource. Several years ago I had a company that outsourced to India. You can't leave anything to the imagination in the spec. If you do it's guaranteed to come back wrong. And there are cultural differences to deal with that effect the software. For example, making requests to reorder the prompts on a working entry screen, so it matches the customer's workflow, elicit disbelief and outright laughter. The programmers can't understand why you would take something that works and change it solely for the convenience of the end user. After all, labor is cheap and if someone complains they just get fired and immediately replaced, right? Color, inconsistent layout, and look and feel become major issues of contention. On the other hand, if your a just a coder working as part of multi-discipline team on non-visible background or system processes, well, here they excel. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Richard Gaskin Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 10:44 AM To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market Jim Hurley wrote: Thought some of you might be interested in this article from the NYT on Computer Science as a major in today's world of technology and the problems with off-shoring of programming jobs. TECHNOLOGY | August 23, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/technology/23geeks.html?ex=1125 460800en=6b61cc74c14ba4afei=5070emc=eta1ATechie, Absolutely, and More By STEVE LOHR For computer science students, expanding expertise beyond programming is crucial to future job security as technology jobs move to India and China. A reassuring read. Makes me glad I never jumped on the bandwagon with commodity languages like Java and VB. Anything that can be commoditized will be sent overseas today, and done by robots tommorrow. I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I spend more time doing requirements analysis and design than coding. Those jobs can be outsourced only at the publisher's peril: design work requires an intimate understanding of not just the regional culture of the target audience, but also the organizational culture. You have to directly observe users in action, interview people at all levels of the organization your software will support, and learn when to listen to what they tell you and when to read between the lines to hear not what they're able to articulate but what they really mean. Software design is more about workflow than algorithms, more about people than machines. A tool like Rev is already doing most of the work that other companies outsource: the bit-counting tedium of lower-level languages. Us Rev devs ge get to focus on the people side of the business, which for me is more enjoyable (when I was working in C I kept asking, Why am I typing this -- can't the machine do this for me?), and not likely to move offshore anytime soon (except perhaps with short-sighted companies who prefer to jeopardize their viability by blurring the distinctions between short-term savings and long-term ROI, and I try to avoid working with companies that aren't ROI-driven anyway). -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market
Jim Bufalini wrote: Several years ago I had a company that outsourced to India. You can't leave anything to the imagination in the spec. If you do it's guaranteed to come back wrong. And there are cultural differences to deal with that effect the software. For example, making requests to reorder the prompts on a working entry screen, so it matches the customer's workflow, elicit disbelief and outright laughter. The programmers can't understand why you would take something that works and change it solely for the convenience of the end user. I hope all my clients' competitors outsource. :) That last line is one of the funniest things I've read in this industry in years. Should be a t-shirt -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market
My guess is that this is old data. Funny, but old. I know several companies that outsource fairly complicated software projects that do involve relatively rich UIs and they report consistently good results from their outsourcing partners. In the early days of outsourcing, there was a lot of this kind of miscommunication but I suspect that in the several years that have elapsed since Jim's experience, the Indian programming world has made great strides. Read The World is Flat by Thomas L. Friedman for an up-to-date look at this whole area. On Aug 24, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Jim Bufalini wrote: Several years ago I had a company that outsourced to India. You can't leave anything to the imagination in the spec. If you do it's guaranteed to come back wrong. And there are cultural differences to deal with that effect the software. For example, making requests to reorder the prompts on a working entry screen, so it matches the customer's workflow, elicit disbelief and outright laughter. The programmers can't understand why you would take something that works and change it solely for the convenience of the end user. I hope all my clients' competitors outsource. :) That last line is one of the funniest things I've read in this industry in years. Should be a t-shirt -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolution Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.revolutionpros.com, Click My Stuff ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market
Dan Shafer wrote: On Aug 24, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Jim Bufalini wrote: Several years ago I had a company that outsourced to India. You can't leave anything to the imagination in the spec. If you do it's guaranteed to come back wrong. And there are cultural differences to deal with that effect the software. For example, making requests to reorder the prompts on a working entry screen, so it matches the customer's workflow, elicit disbelief and outright laughter. The programmers can't understand why you would take something that works and change it solely for the convenience of the end user. I hope all my clients' competitors outsource. :) My guess is that this is old data. Funny, but old. I know several companies that outsource fairly complicated software projects that do involve relatively rich UIs and they report consistently good results from their outsourcing partners. In the early days of outsourcing, there was a lot of this kind of miscommunication but I suspect that in the several years that have elapsed since Jim's experience, the Indian programming world has made great strides. Read The World is Flat by Thomas L. Friedman for an up-to-date look at this whole area. The world _is_ flat: I hear comments like that from stateside developers too. :) -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: OT: Computer Science in today's market
Dan, The several years was late 1999 through 2001. If those were the early days, then so be it. Of course, using a word like outsourcing is like saying programming. There are many different kinds. Do these companies have their own facilities offshore like IBM and Microsoft with 3,000+ programmers each in India alone? Or, do they have a dedicated full-time programming staff offshore? Do they have a half dozen or so resident offshore programmers onsite on H-1 and B-1 visas? The company we worked with had 350 programmers who admittedly were not in love with our business model, which used them as a backend programming resource for smaller US developers who could then convert their personnel from programmers to consultants who would work with the actual clients, write the specs and do the installs. The motivation of many programmers in India is to put in 4 or 5 hard and lean years with a company there to earn the right to travel to other countries, where the pay is much higher and where they have a good chance of immigration. I'd be surprised if this has changed much in 5-years. Glowing articles aside, the realities of outsourcing are more involved technically and culturally than appear on the surface. This is not to say it doesn't work, but I highly doubt any client who outsources will get the kind of quality and satisfaction that they would otherwise get from the types of people who frequent this list. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dan Shafer Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:10 PM To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market My guess is that this is old data. Funny, but old. I know several companies that outsource fairly complicated software projects that do involve relatively rich UIs and they report consistently good results from their outsourcing partners. In the early days of outsourcing, there was a lot of this kind of miscommunication but I suspect that in the several years that have elapsed since Jim's experience, the Indian programming world has made great strides. Read The World is Flat by Thomas L. Friedman for an up-to-date look at this whole area. On Aug 24, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Jim Bufalini wrote: Several years ago I had a company that outsourced to India. You can't leave anything to the imagination in the spec. If you do it's guaranteed to come back wrong. And there are cultural differences to deal with that effect the software. For example, making requests to reorder the prompts on a working entry screen, so it matches the customer's workflow, elicit disbelief and outright laughter. The programmers can't understand why you would take something that works and change it solely for the convenience of the end user. I hope all my clients' competitors outsource. :) That last line is one of the funniest things I've read in this industry in years. Should be a t-shirt -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolution Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.revolutionpros.com, Click My Stuff ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market
Yeah, I'd say four-year-old data is the early days. My data says you're out of date but I'm sure my data has a bias to it as well. Dan On Aug 24, 2005, at 6:35 PM, Jim Bufalini wrote: Dan, The several years was late 1999 through 2001. If those were the early days, then so be it. Of course, using a word like outsourcing is like saying programming. There are many different kinds. Do these companies have their own facilities offshore like IBM and Microsoft with 3,000+ programmers each in India alone? Or, do they have a dedicated full-time programming staff offshore? Do they have a half dozen or so resident offshore programmers onsite on H-1 and B-1 visas? The company we worked with had 350 programmers who admittedly were not in love with our business model, which used them as a backend programming resource for smaller US developers who could then convert their personnel from programmers to consultants who would work with the actual clients, write the specs and do the installs. The motivation of many programmers in India is to put in 4 or 5 hard and lean years with a company there to earn the right to travel to other countries, where the pay is much higher and where they have a good chance of immigration. I'd be surprised if this has changed much in 5-years. Glowing articles aside, the realities of outsourcing are more involved technically and culturally than appear on the surface. This is not to say it doesn't work, but I highly doubt any client who outsources will get the kind of quality and satisfaction that they would otherwise get from the types of people who frequent this list. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dan Shafer Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:10 PM To: How to use Revolution Subject: Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market My guess is that this is old data. Funny, but old. I know several companies that outsource fairly complicated software projects that do involve relatively rich UIs and they report consistently good results from their outsourcing partners. In the early days of outsourcing, there was a lot of this kind of miscommunication but I suspect that in the several years that have elapsed since Jim's experience, the Indian programming world has made great strides. Read The World is Flat by Thomas L. Friedman for an up-to-date look at this whole area. On Aug 24, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Jim Bufalini wrote: Several years ago I had a company that outsourced to India. You can't leave anything to the imagination in the spec. If you do it's guaranteed to come back wrong. And there are cultural differences to deal with that effect the software. For example, making requests to reorder the prompts on a working entry screen, so it matches the customer's workflow, elicit disbelief and outright laughter. The programmers can't understand why you would take something that works and change it solely for the convenience of the end user. I hope all my clients' competitors outsource. :) That last line is one of the funniest things I've read in this industry in years. Should be a t-shirt -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolution Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.revolutionpros.com, Click My Stuff ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
OT: Computer Science in today's market
Thought some of you might be interested in this article from the NYT on Computer Science as a major in today's world of technology and the problems with off-shoring of programming jobs. TECHNOLOGY | August 23, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/technology/23geeks.html?ex=1125460800en=6b61cc74c14ba4afei=5070emc=eta1ATechie, Absolutely, and More By STEVE LOHR For computer science students, expanding expertise beyond programming is crucial to future job security as technology jobs move to India and China. Jim ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market
Jim Hurley wrote: Thought some of you might be interested in this article from the NYT on Computer Science as a major in today's world of technology and the problems with off-shoring of programming jobs. TECHNOLOGY | August 23, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/technology/23geeks.html?ex=1125460800en=6b61cc74c14ba4afei=5070emc=eta1ATechie, Absolutely, and More By STEVE LOHR For computer science students, expanding expertise beyond programming is crucial to future job security as technology jobs move to India and China. A reassuring read. Makes me glad I never jumped on the bandwagon with commodity languages like Java and VB. Anything that can be commoditized will be sent overseas today, and done by robots tommorrow. I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I spend more time doing requirements analysis and design than coding. Those jobs can be outsourced only at the publisher's peril: design work requires an intimate understanding of not just the regional culture of the target audience, but also the organizational culture. You have to directly observe users in action, interview people at all levels of the organization your software will support, and learn when to listen to what they tell you and when to read between the lines to hear not what they're able to articulate but what they really mean. Software design is more about workflow than algorithms, more about people than machines. A tool like Rev is already doing most of the work that other companies outsource: the bit-counting tedium of lower-level languages. Us Rev devs ge get to focus on the people side of the business, which for me is more enjoyable (when I was working in C I kept asking, Why am I typing this -- can't the machine do this for me?), and not likely to move offshore anytime soon (except perhaps with short-sighted companies who prefer to jeopardize their viability by blurring the distinctions between short-term savings and long-term ROI, and I try to avoid working with companies that aren't ROI-driven anyway). -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: [OT]: Computer Science in today's market
Hi Richard and all, Le 23 août 05 à 22:43, Richard Gaskin a écrit : Software design is more about workflow than algorithms, more about people than machines. I do agree a thousand times. More, I think that a good idea, right ergonomics and design are 80% of any software value. The rest (coding) has to be clean and well thought (architecture is important) but it's backup only. Men, I'm not a programmer, I'm an obstetrician ;-) Best Regards from Paris, Eric Chatonet. So Smart Software For institutions, companies and associations Built-to-order applications: management, multimedia, internet, etc. Windows, Mac OS and Linux... With the French touch Free plugins and tutorials on my website Web sitehttp://www.sosmartsoftware.com/ Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ Phone33 (0)1 43 31 77 62 Mobile33 (0)6 20 74 50 86 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market
On Aug 23, 2005, at 1:21 PM, Jim Hurley wrote: Thought some of you might be interested in this article from the NYT on Computer Science as a major in today's world of technology and the problems with off-shoring of programming jobs. TECHNOLOGY | August 23, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/technology/23geeks.html? ex=1125460800en=6b61cc74c14ba4afei=5070emc=eta1ATechie, Absolutely, and More By STEVE LOHR For computer science students, expanding expertise beyond programming is crucial to future job security as technology jobs move to India and China. Jim, Great article to bring to everyone's attention. I completely believe that to be a successful developer, one must have a well rounded background in areas outside of programming. The ability to generate and analyze data about competitors, customers, and market conditions creates long term viability. I have passed this link on to others in the field. Mark Talluto -- CANELA Software http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: OT: Computer Science in today's market
You do? You're kidding, right? ;-) At least, that _would be_ the response if made by any of my CS major students :( Judy On Tue, 23 Aug 2005, Richard Gaskin wrote: I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I spend more time doing requirements analysis and design than coding. Those jobs can be outsourced only at the publisher's peril: design work requires an intimate understanding of not just the regional culture of the target audience, but also the organizational culture. You have to directly observe users in action, interview people at all levels of the organization your software will support, and learn when to listen to what they tell you and when to read between the lines to hear not what they're able to articulate but what they really mean. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
