Re: on-rev remote database
Le 18 oct. 2010 à 20:41, Andrew Kluthe a écrit : The client never actually gets the login credentials for the database because they are stored in our private big client DB. On startup the rev program fetches the credentials from our database and connects to theirs to begin working with it. Definitively the way to go ! I would hate to have to rewrite my entire suite of programs to center around an irev script for the transactions. I would love to use On-Rev as a database host because of how close it is to where I am located and the power of revServer. If you prefer, you can do this in having your client (web browser or LiveCode ria app) posting their credentials to a PHP script indeed but in any case you will have to be sure that the server-side script will respond to the clients requests and interact with the db-backend only when each client will have been authenticated as allowed to interact with its own account on your on-line app. If most of your customers are, alike mine, using dynamic IP to connect the cloud and subsequently your or mine on-line apps, an IP-based authentication system will not be usable nor safe at all in such a context. HTH, -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
This is all a moot point now since I have just been informed by Heather that the only way the on-rev server can be set up to do this is if you give them all of the IP addresses that people are going to connect from and they will allow those IP addresses to connect. This of course will never work with a large potential user base of hundreds or thousands. I guess I'm going to have to throw away everything I've done so far and start over with the web based approach that Pierre suggested. It's going to kill my performance but it's the only option I've got open to me at this point. len morgan On 10/19/2010 2:27 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Le 18 oct. 2010 à 20:41, Andrew Kluthe a écrit : The client never actually gets the login credentials for the database because they are stored in our private big client DB. On startup the rev program fetches the credentials from our database and connects to theirs to begin working with it. Definitively the way to go ! I would hate to have to rewrite my entire suite of programs to center around an irev script for the transactions. I would love to use On-Rev as a database host because of how close it is to where I am located and the power of revServer. If you prefer, you can do this in having your client (web browser or LiveCode ria app) posting their credentials to a PHP script indeed but in any case you will have to be sure that the server-side script will respond to the clients requests and interact with the db-backend only when each client will have been authenticated as allowed to interact with its own account on your on-line app. If most of your customers are, alike mine, using dynamic IP to connect the cloud and subsequently your or mine on-line apps, an IP-based authentication system will not be usable nor safe at all in such a context. HTH, -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Len Morgan wrote: I guess I'm going to have to throw away everything I've done so far and start over with the web based approach that Pierre suggested. It's going to kill my performance but it's the only option I've got open to me at this point. What is the performance difference? And can you recap exactly what the implementation differences are? I'll bet there's a way to do what you need with good performance. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Len Morgan wrote: I guess I'm going to have to throw away everything I've done so far and start over with the web based approach that Pierre suggested. It's going to kill my performance but it's the only option I've got open to me at this point. What is the performance difference? And can you recap exactly what the implementation differences are? I'll bet there's a way to do what you need with good performance. Also: How inherently relational is the data? There are so many data storage options these days -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
This is not a universal restriction with all web hosts. Datamost, for instance, will allow any number of MYSQL databases and the user can tie those DB users with any end computers' IPs from the Dreamhost control panel. In fact, it's possible to use the % wild card and specify partial or even all domains (not recommended) so it could work from anywhere. Dreamhost gives their users a lot of rope (including shell access over ssh.). On-Rev is more restrictive. Of course if you need and are using on-rev, then you would need to buy and install revserver at Dreamhost as well. For best security (and if you have thousands of users, it's really recommended) to use the cgi 'firewall' as suggested to protect your server and clients' data. You will find that opening and closing MYSQL frequently has almost no overhead, compared to returning the data to the client. the hit that the server will take with a cgi firewall will be minimal. Rev server is FAST. On 19 October 2010 04:56, Len Morgan len-mor...@crcom.net wrote: This is all a moot point now since I have just been informed by Heather that the only way the on-rev server can be set up to do this is if you give them all of the IP addresses that people are going to connect from and they will allow those IP addresses to connect. This of course will never work with a large potential user base of hundreds or thousands. I guess I'm going to have to throw away everything I've done so far and start over with the web based approach that Pierre suggested. It's going to kill my performance but it's the only option I've got open to me at this point. len morgan On 10/19/2010 2:27 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Le 18 oct. 2010 à 20:41, Andrew Kluthe a écrit : The client never actually gets the login credentials for the database because they are stored in our private big client DB. On startup the rev program fetches the credentials from our database and connects to theirs to begin working with it. Definitively the way to go ! I would hate to have to rewrite my entire suite of programs to center around an irev script for the transactions. I would love to use On-Rev as a database host because of how close it is to where I am located and the power of revServer. If you prefer, you can do this in having your client (web browser or LiveCode ria app) posting their credentials to a PHP script indeed but in any case you will have to be sure that the server-side script will respond to the clients requests and interact with the db-backend only when each client will have been authenticated as allowed to interact with its own account on your on-line app. If most of your customers are, alike mine, using dynamic IP to connect the cloud and subsequently your or mine on-line apps, an IP-based authentication system will not be usable nor safe at all in such a context. HTH, -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Ugh. That means I have to find another host. I just processed my on-rev one month to try it out and see if it can handle the load a few hours ago. I should have been more specific when I asked heather if I could have unlimited db's and if i could connect remotely to them. :\ Definitely not re-writing all my apps to use a different transaction method. -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/on-rev-remote-database-tp2998969p3002355.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Whiskey Tango? What Len Morgan wrote was: This is all a moot point now since I have just been informed by Heather that the only way the on-rev server can be set up to do this is if you give them all of the IP addresses that people are going to connect from and they will allow those IP addresses to connect. Unless I missed something earlier in this thread, it seems he's writing about blocking access based on IPs, and all Heather did was remind him of what Pierre wrote here, that given the majority of folks who use dynamic IPs that isn't practical. FWIW, On-Rev does indeed provide unlimited databases: MySQL 5.0.67 Databases: Unlimited PostgreSQL Databases: Unlimited http://www.on-rev.com/hosting/features-chart/ Back to the original topic, granting/restricting access based on IPs is risky and prone to error if any of your users have dynamic IPs, for the reasons Pierre noted earlier this morning. IP-based restrictions can be somewhat useful for some institutional customers where fixed IP ranges can be known to belong to the customer. I use it myself on a subscription site I manage for a client, but not as an alternative to login authentication but merely as an extra restriction on top of the login requirement; I would never rely on IP address alone. With individual users on dynamic IPs, the risk is that the IP they're using right now may be reassigned to someone else later, providing unauthorized access to unknowable individuals. Granting access by range only exacerbates the risk. So while it's sometimes useful, IP-based access doesn't appear to be a practical option for Mr. Morgan, leaving him to consider more conventional options like a simple login as most sites require for authenticated access. Andrew, you can hopefully breathe easier now. Relax and enjoy your unlimited databases. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Ien, In practice, there will no be any performances difference at all between IP-based or credential-based authentication (even if the credential are send in secure mode) and you can trust me on this. On the other hand, your authentication system will make all your n-tier app process lots more secure than it would be in using something else instead. Try to always get in mind that any Cloud available app will, at one point or an other be scanned by untrustable peoples and computers farms automatic processes searching to hack your app to take hand on it (and they are sometimes attacking their targets 4-6 months per year even if they stay unsuccessful after the first attempts... and the last ones, only if the app is really safely structured). Trust need there to go along experience. Any business-dedicated n-tier app need to be build in always getting this in mind. In other words, security is never optional but the first main part we need to have in mind when we are starting a project and, fortunally, there are lots of ways to strongly secure a LiveCode-based n-tier app. Between two level strong authentication based (1.- what i know + 2.- what i own) and secure protocols, all the best can and need to be done. my two cents, Pierre Le 19 oct. 2010 à 13:56, Len Morgan a écrit : This is all a moot point now since I have just been informed by Heather that the only way the on-rev server can be set up to do this is if you give them all of the IP addresses that people are going to connect from and they will allow those IP addresses to connect. This of course will never work with a large potential user base of hundreds or thousands. I guess I'm going to have to throw away everything I've done so far and start over with the web based approach that Pierre suggested. It's going to kill my performance but it's the only option I've got open to me at this point. len morgan On 10/19/2010 2:27 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Le 18 oct. 2010 à 20:41, Andrew Kluthe a écrit : The client never actually gets the login credentials for the database because they are stored in our private big client DB. On startup the rev program fetches the credentials from our database and connects to theirs to begin working with it. Definitively the way to go ! I would hate to have to rewrite my entire suite of programs to center around an irev script for the transactions. I would love to use On-Rev as a database host because of how close it is to where I am located and the power of revServer. If you prefer, you can do this in having your client (web browser or LiveCode ria app) posting their credentials to a PHP script indeed but in any case you will have to be sure that the server-side script will respond to the clients requests and interact with the db-backend only when each client will have been authenticated as allowed to interact with its own account on your on-line app. If most of your customers are, alike mine, using dynamic IP to connect the cloud and subsequently your or mine on-line apps, an IP-based authentication system will not be usable nor safe at all in such a context. HTH, -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
I know they are unlimited, but I need remote access for all ip's. Can you wildcard for all domains and IP's with on-rev and mySQL? -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/on-rev-remote-database-tp2998969p3002656.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Pretty sure you can, check the tool in cpanel, I believe I read in there that % is allowable. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Andrew Kluthe and...@rjdfarm.com wrote: I know they are unlimited, but I need remote access for all ip's. Can you wildcard for all domains and IP's with on-rev and mySQL? -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/on-rev-remote-database-tp2998969p3002656.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Take care : the all ip's range option is the exact synonym for full hackable app. Comme on dit chez nous : à bon entendeur, salut ! P. Le 19 oct. 2010 à 21:17, Andrew Kluthe a écrit : I know they are unlimited, but I need remote access for all ip's. Can you wildcard for all domains and IP's with on-rev and mySQL? -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/on-rev-remote-database-tp2998969p3002656.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
It's not available in cpanel now. I looked. I thought it was in the USERS and / or MySQL area a while ago. On 19 October 2010 12:22, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty sure you can, check the tool in cpanel, I believe I read in there that % is allowable. Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Look on cPanel under databases section, theres a link for remote mysql. This is on Odin. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 2:09 PM, stephen barncard stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com wrote: It's not available in cpanel now. I looked. I thought it was in the USERS and / or MySQL area a while ago. On 19 October 2010 12:22, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty sure you can, check the tool in cpanel, I believe I read in there that % is allowable. Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
wow. I was wrong. thanks s On 19 October 2010 13:24, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Look on cPanel under databases section, theres a link for remote mysql. This is on Odin. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 2:09 PM, stephen barncard stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com wrote: It's not available in cpanel now. I looked. I thought it was in the USERS and / or MySQL area a while ago. On 19 October 2010 12:22, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty sure you can, check the tool in cpanel, I believe I read in there that % is allowable. Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Glad it was there. Never sure if there will be complete parity across server boundaries! On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM, stephen barncard stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com wrote: wow. I was wrong. thanks s On 19 October 2010 13:24, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Look on cPanel under databases section, theres a link for remote mysql. This is on Odin. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 2:09 PM, stephen barncard stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com wrote: It's not available in cpanel now. I looked. I thought it was in the USERS and / or MySQL area a while ago. On 19 October 2010 12:22, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty sure you can, check the tool in cpanel, I believe I read in there that % is allowable. Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Folks, You can have remote connections for MySQL databases by setting the remote mysql option. Even though PostgreSQL is more pure than MySQL, right now, going thru mySQL might be a good option for your read only database. :-D On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Glad it was there. Never sure if there will be complete parity across server boundaries! On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 3:28 PM, stephen barncard stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com wrote: wow. I was wrong. thanks s On 19 October 2010 13:24, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Look on cPanel under databases section, theres a link for remote mysql. This is on Odin. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 2:09 PM, stephen barncard stephenrevoluti...@barncard.com wrote: It's not available in cpanel now. I looked. I thought it was in the USERS and / or MySQL area a while ago. On 19 October 2010 12:22, Mike Bonner bonnm...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty sure you can, check the tool in cpanel, I believe I read in there that % is allowable. Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Stephen Barncard San Francisco Ca. USA more about sqb http://www.google.com/profiles/sbarncar ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- http://www.andregarzia.com All We Do Is Code. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Take care : the all ip's range option is the exact synonym for full hackable app. Comme on dit chez nous : à bon entendeur, salut ! P. Le 19 oct. 2010 à 21:17, Andrew Kluthe a écrit : Intend on using random hashed passwords that get changed monthly and not available to end users that are stored in a database with NO remote access. Seems about as safe as a cgi for manipulating the db. -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/on-rev-remote-database-tp2998969p3002871.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
I think safety is over rated on some places. It all depends on the sensitiveness of the information you are storing. If this is a simple Cooking Recipes Website then using standard security polices will be enough. If you're building your first web enabled livecode based nuclear reactor then you might want something more robust. If you decide to go with a remote connection, then edit the user that is able to connect and strip him of all the priviledges he do not need. Allow him to query the necessary tables and only that. Keep him away from schemas and other reflections. A cool (and theoretical since I never implemented it) and somewhat automatic way for authentication to work is to use a ticket like this: 1) There is an authentication irev file which will only serve thru a SSL connection. This file will receive a post call from the desktop client and check if it is allowed to connect to the database, if it is so, then it will answer back with a login/password combination to the client. 2) the client use the login/password combination from step 1 to connect to the database. If connection breaks or expires, do step 1 again. This login/pass combination can be generated at runtime and using cron you can expire those credentials as you see fit. Think about it as some banks generate Online VISA numbers good for one transaction only. You are generating readonly access user credentials on demand, if any of your credentials is compromissed the hacker will not have access to anything since you took out all priviledges for that user and even so, after some time, that user will expire and the login/pass combo will be useless. :-P (I never implemented this, I just though out of the blue how to give remote access with some modest security that would not need code changes to replace login credentials if the given logins were compromised) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
I appreciate everyone's concern about about the security of my database but I assure you that this isn't my first rodeo (small 'r' - not a plug :-) ) and have been write secure computer systems for prison management for over 10 years - most of them with remote access. I should probably elaborate a little more on what I'm attempting to do. The data I'm trying to give access to is already publicly available to anyone one the Internet. It's just not organized in a way that can be searched, sorted, what have you. The data (and the service) are all available on a web site but while the site provides all the necessary facilities to do what you need to do, it doesn't do it in any kind of user friendly way. My program is composed of two parts: The first is twice a month, I download the web page with the information on it, scrape the data out of it, and then post the NEW data (about 30% is new) to a database. I also add the date that the listing showed up for the first time. The second part of the program is used by the end user who will log in, get only the newest listings that pertain to him/her and then decide if they want to submit to one of the listings. If they do, they'll choose the data to upload and having already entered their username and password for the original site (which they must already be a paid member of) I'll pretend to login, go to the submissions page, and make the submission. Once this is done, they will have local database of their submissions that includes the deadlines (so they know when to check and see if their submission sold or not), etc. The reason I don't want the database of listings stored locally is because every now and then, they change the format of their listings page and then my scraper stops working. Instead of having to update hundreds of users, I store MY version of the database the same way no matter what the source data looks like. I have to do a little work to figure out the new format but only once. It also tends to be a rather large database and having that lay around on everyone's computer seems like a waste. Now I hope you can see why I wasn't that worried about the security of the data. It was read only, already publicly available, and you had to already be a member of the other site (not mine by the way) in order to do anything useful with the data. I do want to thank everyone for their suggestions though. I enjoyed the discussion. len morgan On 10/19/2010 12:59 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Whiskey Tango? What Len Morgan wrote was: This is all a moot point now since I have just been informed by Heather that the only way the on-rev server can be set up to do this is if you give them all of the IP addresses that people are going to connect from and they will allow those IP addresses to connect. Unless I missed something earlier in this thread, it seems he's writing about blocking access based on IPs, and all Heather did was remind him of what Pierre wrote here, that given the majority of folks who use dynamic IPs that isn't practical. FWIW, On-Rev does indeed provide unlimited databases: MySQL 5.0.67 Databases: Unlimited PostgreSQL Databases: Unlimited http://www.on-rev.com/hosting/features-chart/ Back to the original topic, granting/restricting access based on IPs is risky and prone to error if any of your users have dynamic IPs, for the reasons Pierre noted earlier this morning. IP-based restrictions can be somewhat useful for some institutional customers where fixed IP ranges can be known to belong to the customer. I use it myself on a subscription site I manage for a client, but not as an alternative to login authentication but merely as an extra restriction on top of the login requirement; I would never rely on IP address alone. With individual users on dynamic IPs, the risk is that the IP they're using right now may be reassigned to someone else later, providing unauthorized access to unknowable individuals. Granting access by range only exacerbates the risk. So while it's sometimes useful, IP-based access doesn't appear to be a practical option for Mr. Morgan, leaving him to consider more conventional options like a simple login as most sites require for authenticated access. Andrew, you can hopefully breathe easier now. Relax and enjoy your unlimited databases. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World LiveCode training and consulting: http://www.fourthworld.com Webzine for LiveCode developers: http://www.LiveCodeJournal.com LiveCode Journal blog: http://LiveCodejournal.com/blog.irv ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit
Re: on-rev remote database
This is not a good idea. I agree with the best practices notion that direct access to remote SQL servers is in general a bad thing. There are tricks you can use to harden them. I know our web guy got really really good at this. Still, you have to know what you are doing, and apart from IP filtering, it's best to not do it. That being said, I wonder if you could use a proxy to get around this limitation? Bob On Oct 18, 2010, at 11:41 AM, Andrew Kluthe wrote: Hmm, I wonder if you can set it to not worry about what IP is the connection is coming from. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Ien, If you just need to have a LiveCode client able to speak with the on-rev PostgreSQL backend from anyware all over the world, why don't you choose to send HTTP Posts from your client to an irev script witch will interact in localhost mode with the PostgreSQL backend in full read/write before sending back the pg response to the client ? I do this all the time and it works perfect without any security lacks. In tunning the pg config, anyone can make PostgreSQL available in full cloud access mode but it's, at least, not a safe way to go... HTH, Pierre Le 18 oct. 2010 à 04:58, Len Morgan a écrit : Pierre, I'm trying to write a program that will access data on a public database (Postgresql) and I don't really want to give pgAdmin to all of my users. That would be disaster! The localhost only access has never been the case. I've been using Postgres for more than 15 years now and I always have users access a common database (although it's always been from a private network). pgAdmin remote access is not my problem. It's access to the data from the outside. I can always use cPanel if I need to maintain the database but I've got to have remote access for end users (who could be anywhere in the world). len On 10/17/2010 7:27 PM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, You can't do this because the on-rev PostgreSQL servers security rules (following in this the best practices recommanded by the PostgreSQL team) are set to allow localhost connections only. Why don't you simply use the on-Rev phpPgAdmin panel from your home box ? Works perfect and let us do exactly all what we could do in using PgAdmin on the 5432 unprotected port. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 21:42, Len Morgan a écrit : Pierre, I'm not having any trouble with the phpPgAdmin because that's running on the same server as Postgres is. What I'm trying to do is use (for the time being) PgAdmin from my computer at home to talk to the server at on-rev. So far, all I get is a message that there is no server listening there so I'm thinking it's some sort of firewall issue. Has anyone been able to successfully connect to Postgres on on-rev from a remote computer? len On 10/17/2010 11:52 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, There went some troubles, full solved months ago, about login to the phpPgAdmin panel of the cPanel, on the loki server at least. All worked from that time 100% well. Both MySQL and PostgreSQL are yet full usable in the on-rev environment and some of my apps use both on a 24/7 basis (MySQL for the earliest ones, and PostgreSQL for all the other and next to come. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 13:05, Len Morgan a écrit : I seem to remember someone having trouble connecting to a database on their on-rev account remotely a while back. Was this ever resolved? I'd like to have a database that can be accessed from anywhere but I'd rather not go through the hoops of making a web service to get at the data. Was this too much of a security issue for the hosting service to allow? len morgan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences:
Re: on-rev remote database
Pierre, It's only a security risk if I let the users WRITE to the database which I have no intention of doing. The reason I'm trying to avoid and irev script in the middle is that I don't want to have to connect and disconnect every time a user asks for data. If you have a sample irev script that would allow several hundred (I hope) users to read from this database, I'd love to see it. Maybe it's not as bad (i.e., establishing a new connection to the database every time) as I'm thinking. Thanks! len On 10/18/2010 6:39 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, If you just need to have a LiveCode client able to speak with the on-rev PostgreSQL backend from anyware all over the world, why don't you choose to send HTTP Posts from your client to an irev script witch will interact in localhost mode with the PostgreSQL backend in full read/write before sending back the pg response to the client ? I do this all the time and it works perfect without any security lacks. In tunning the pg config, anyone can make PostgreSQL available in full cloud access mode but it's, at least, not a safe way to go... HTH, Pierre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Ien,
See what i wrote to days ago to Bill... See the requests example jointed below.
Is't the use rev list a cool library ? ;-)
Hello Bill,
I'm not even sure if I'm asking the question correctly.
I've made a simple time tracking database for my colleagues. Dates, fill-ins,
drop downs etc. I'm not using any of the sophisticated Rev DB tools or SQL. I
am just saving each collection of responses in separate fields. I also have a
button that exports as a text file all info with records on separate lines,
commas between items. Each teacher keeps their own stack on their laptop.
When our supervisor needs to do a report for the school districts, each of
the 13 teacher/consultants will generate the data-text file and send it to
her. She will then import each text file into excel to do her sorts and
reports.
Every time she needs to do an update, she'll need to ask us to send our
latest data and create a new excel to keep the data correct. I do have an
on-rev server account. I did attend and have the dvds for rev-live Las Vegas.
I do own the DVDs from the On-Rev Edinburgh conference, but haven't had time
to watch them yet. I know RunRev/Live Code fairly well. I do not know SQL.
Questions
1. Can I put my existing stack on my on-rev server account for multiple
people to use at one time?
2. Can I put my existing stack on our school server for multiple people to
use at one time?
3. Am i up-that-creek for not knowing SQL?
4. If (I) and (2) are possible with or without SQL what's my best option to
learn how to do whatever I'll need to do.
SQL is not hard to learn at all when it's used in the LiveCode+On-Rev
environment. In fact, if you figure it's just a special subset of LiveCode and
spend some hours to test the main revDB commands/functions, you will be happy
to discover how easy it is. If you do so, choose directly PostgreSQL as the db
target. RevDB is full db agnostic (MySQL and PostgreSQL, at least) but
PostgreSQL is lots more transparent (stability, BSD license, etc...) than MySQL.
The advantages of using an SQL backend in a n-tier server-side environment :
- SQL db are from ground build to handle in the best ways multi-users accesses
in write-mode where LiveCode is't (out of the box, at least !)
- SQL db are storing data in text files too but in a lots more sophisticated
way we can do in storing data in LiveCode objects or text files (concurrency in
read and write modes, journalised transactions, db dump, etc...
- the best db back-ends don't require a more heavy learning curve than the less
solid's ones but they are ACID-complient (PostgreSQL, FireBird, Oracle,...)
witch means you will never lost data in using them
- To the end, it will always be more reliable to store big amount of data in
SQL backends than in LiveCode in about speed of use in a n-tier server-sided
environment and this will always be good for both your data, the server's
response time average to your requests and the mutualised on-rev LiveCode
server engine (top use of it in % of processor's time).
...
The main revDB to explore to become OK with SQL over LiveCode :
put revOpenDatabase (DbTarget,localhost,DbName,DbUser,DBPasswd) into
myDatabaseID
if myDatabaseID is not a number
then return myDatabaseID
else
...
put SELECT * FROM yourTable WHERE yourColumn LIKE ' trim(tparam2)
' into sqlStatement
put revQueryDatabase(myDatabaseID,sqlStatement) into dbCursorID
if dbCursorID is not a number
then return dbCursorID
else
repeat until revQueryIsAtEnd(dbCursorID)
put trim(revDatabaseColumnNamed(dbCursorID,oneOfYourColumns))
into article_titre
put SELECT column1,column2 FROM yourTable WHERE column3 =
current_date AND column4 LIKE ' toUpper(tparam2) \|%' AND column5 = 'Y'
ORDER BY column6 DESC into sqlStatement
...
put UPDATE yourTable SET column3 = ' active_record \
' WHERE column1 = '
tparam1 ' AND column4 = ' anonymousclt[wsanonymousclt] ' into
sqlStatement3
revExecuteSQL myDatabaseID,sqlStatement3
if the result is not a number
then return the result
...
put INSERT INTO yourTable (column1, column2,column3,column4) \
VALUES (' tparam1 ', 'record_activation', ' tparam2 ',
'anonymous') into sqlStatement4 ###
revExecuteSQL myDatabaseID,sqlStatement4
if the result is not a number
then return the result
...
put DELETE FROMyourTable WHERE tparam1 ' the seconds - 10800 ' into
sqlStatement
revExecuteSQL myDatabaseID,sqlStatement
if the result is not a number
then return the result
else return
...
revCloseDatabase(myDatabaseID)
HTH,
Best,
Pierre
Thanks,
Bill
___
use-revolution mailing list
Re: on-rev remote database
This is simply untrue. I do it now. You have to enter an IP that you are allowed to connect from in your IP Filtering list. I forget exactly how at the moment because I don't have the cPanel open, but this is DEFINITELY DOABLE! Bob On Oct 17, 2010, at 5:27 PM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, You can't do this because the on-rev PostgreSQL servers security rules (following in this the best practices recommanded by the PostgreSQL team) are set to allow localhost connections only. Why don't you simply use the on-Rev phpPgAdmin panel from your home box ? Works perfect and let us do exactly all what we could do in using PgAdmin on the 5432 unprotected port. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 21:42, Len Morgan a écrit : ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Bob, True. Sorry for forgotting to precise this along the best practice i prefer to follow (client - irev - localhost connection to pg) even if in this case, each client app need to be authenticated (login/pass send as MD5(fp)) to be seen and accepted as safe and authorised to exchange messages with the irev scripts. Best, Pierre Le 18 oct. 2010 à 19:02, Bob Sneidar a écrit : This is simply untrue. I do it now. You have to enter an IP that you are allowed to connect from in your IP Filtering list. I forget exactly how at the moment because I don't have the cPanel open, but this is DEFINITELY DOABLE! Bob On Oct 17, 2010, at 5:27 PM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, You can't do this because the on-rev PostgreSQL servers security rules (following in this the best practices recommanded by the PostgreSQL team) are set to allow localhost connections only. Why don't you simply use the on-Rev phpPgAdmin panel from your home box ? Works perfect and let us do exactly all what we could do in using PgAdmin on the 5432 unprotected port. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 21:42, Len Morgan a écrit : ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Hmm, I wonder if you can set it to not worry about what IP is the connection is coming from. We are making a subscription service that allows for use of our programs and hosting/maintainence of your data. We want to try to use On-Rev as a remote MySQL host. I have php scripts that create a new database for a client and execute a statement to set up the database to be used with our client program. Our client program uses SQL Yoga to connect directly to the client's database and they can work with the same database from as many computers as they need. The client never actually gets the login credentials for the database because they are stored in our private big client DB. On startup the rev program fetches the credentials from our database and connects to theirs to begin working with it. I would hate to have to rewrite my entire suite of programs to center around an irev script for the transactions. I would love to use On-Rev as a database host because of how close it is to where I am located and the power of revServer. -- View this message in context: http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nabble.com/on-rev-remote-database-tp2998969p3000801.html Sent from the Revolution - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Ien, There went some troubles, full solved months ago, about login to the phpPgAdmin panel of the cPanel, on the loki server at least. All worked from that time 100% well. Both MySQL and PostgreSQL are yet full usable in the on-rev environment and some of my apps use both on a 24/7 basis (MySQL for the earliest ones, and PostgreSQL for all the other and next to come. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 13:05, Len Morgan a écrit : I seem to remember someone having trouble connecting to a database on their on-rev account remotely a while back. Was this ever resolved? I'd like to have a database that can be accessed from anywhere but I'd rather not go through the hoops of making a web service to get at the data. Was this too much of a security issue for the hosting service to allow? len morgan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Pierre, I'm not having any trouble with the phpPgAdmin because that's running on the same server as Postgres is. What I'm trying to do is use (for the time being) PgAdmin from my computer at home to talk to the server at on-rev. So far, all I get is a message that there is no server listening there so I'm thinking it's some sort of firewall issue. Has anyone been able to successfully connect to Postgres on on-rev from a remote computer? len On 10/17/2010 11:52 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, There went some troubles, full solved months ago, about login to the phpPgAdmin panel of the cPanel, on the loki server at least. All worked from that time 100% well. Both MySQL and PostgreSQL are yet full usable in the on-rev environment and some of my apps use both on a 24/7 basis (MySQL for the earliest ones, and PostgreSQL for all the other and next to come. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 13:05, Len Morgan a écrit : I seem to remember someone having trouble connecting to a database on their on-rev account remotely a while back. Was this ever resolved? I'd like to have a database that can be accessed from anywhere but I'd rather not go through the hoops of making a web service to get at the data. Was this too much of a security issue for the hosting service to allow? len morgan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Ien, You can't do this because the on-rev PostgreSQL servers security rules (following in this the best practices recommanded by the PostgreSQL team) are set to allow localhost connections only. Why don't you simply use the on-Rev phpPgAdmin panel from your home box ? Works perfect and let us do exactly all what we could do in using PgAdmin on the 5432 unprotected port. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 21:42, Len Morgan a écrit : Pierre, I'm not having any trouble with the phpPgAdmin because that's running on the same server as Postgres is. What I'm trying to do is use (for the time being) PgAdmin from my computer at home to talk to the server at on-rev. So far, all I get is a message that there is no server listening there so I'm thinking it's some sort of firewall issue. Has anyone been able to successfully connect to Postgres on on-rev from a remote computer? len On 10/17/2010 11:52 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, There went some troubles, full solved months ago, about login to the phpPgAdmin panel of the cPanel, on the loki server at least. All worked from that time 100% well. Both MySQL and PostgreSQL are yet full usable in the on-rev environment and some of my apps use both on a 24/7 basis (MySQL for the earliest ones, and PostgreSQL for all the other and next to come. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 13:05, Len Morgan a écrit : I seem to remember someone having trouble connecting to a database on their on-rev account remotely a while back. Was this ever resolved? I'd like to have a database that can be accessed from anywhere but I'd rather not go through the hoops of making a web service to get at the data. Was this too much of a security issue for the hosting service to allow? len morgan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: on-rev remote database
Pierre, I'm trying to write a program that will access data on a public database (Postgresql) and I don't really want to give pgAdmin to all of my users. That would be disaster! The localhost only access has never been the case. I've been using Postgres for more than 15 years now and I always have users access a common database (although it's always been from a private network). pgAdmin remote access is not my problem. It's access to the data from the outside. I can always use cPanel if I need to maintain the database but I've got to have remote access for end users (who could be anywhere in the world). len On 10/17/2010 7:27 PM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, You can't do this because the on-rev PostgreSQL servers security rules (following in this the best practices recommanded by the PostgreSQL team) are set to allow localhost connections only. Why don't you simply use the on-Rev phpPgAdmin panel from your home box ? Works perfect and let us do exactly all what we could do in using PgAdmin on the 5432 unprotected port. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 21:42, Len Morgan a écrit : Pierre, I'm not having any trouble with the phpPgAdmin because that's running on the same server as Postgres is. What I'm trying to do is use (for the time being) PgAdmin from my computer at home to talk to the server at on-rev. So far, all I get is a message that there is no server listening there so I'm thinking it's some sort of firewall issue. Has anyone been able to successfully connect to Postgres on on-rev from a remote computer? len On 10/17/2010 11:52 AM, Pierre Sahores wrote: Ien, There went some troubles, full solved months ago, about login to the phpPgAdmin panel of the cPanel, on the loki server at least. All worked from that time 100% well. Both MySQL and PostgreSQL are yet full usable in the on-rev environment and some of my apps use both on a 24/7 basis (MySQL for the earliest ones, and PostgreSQL for all the other and next to come. HTH, Pierre Le 17 oct. 2010 à 13:05, Len Morgan a écrit : I seem to remember someone having trouble connecting to a database on their on-rev account remotely a while back. Was this ever resolved? I'd like to have a database that can be accessed from anywhere but I'd rather not go through the hoops of making a web service to get at the data. Was this too much of a security issue for the hosting service to allow? len morgan ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Pierre Sahores mobile : (33) 6 03 95 77 70 www.wrds.com www.sahores-conseil.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
