RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Maybe the learning curve got a bit steeper for Cocoon2.2 but I disagree that this is inherent to Cocoon itself. Cocoon2.2 still allows you to do use the sitemap as before and building a complete webapp with optional usage of - Flowscript/jxtemplate - Cocoon forms - Xslt - … without ever having to write a single line of Java. It took me 1 week to completely make the switch from Cocoon2.1.11 to Cocoon2.2. And building blocks and wiring them up (dependencies) in the servlet-context.xml is really simple. The switch to Maven is a generic tendency seen in all open source projects, so not only Cocoon…. Who will tell when we all switch to Craddle (and have to learn yet another build tool and programming language Groovy). And the switch from Avalon to Spring was also a complete logical step… it has become the de facto standard for doing dependency injection and it comes bundled with a lot of usefull integration classes for most frameworks (Castor, XStream, Quartz, …) and AOP. And for the ones who still think the only decent JVM language is Java… think twice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages If you ask me this discussion is more about people resisting change in Software development in general because they have to adapt (again) to new technologies. Cheers, Robby Pelssers From: Andreas Kuehne [mailto:akue...@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 3:40 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Hi, for me it's also true : Didn't see any real need to got to 2.2. or beyond ! 2.1 does anything for me, huge apps with heavy load as well as quick solutions. To the major problem of cocoon is : It's ready ! No burning needs for new functionality, no major tasks on the todo list. Fiddeling with another base framework ( spring instead of avalon ) or build tool ( maven vs. ant ) doesn't make any user more happy. I can do what I need any van even impress competitors with speed and performance. Maintainance mode or not, I'm happy with it ! Greetings Andreas
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
That depends on the context in which you work: experience, environment, support. I like the previous comment about it being a change for the developers' benefit. As someone working on my own with little contact with other developers, I used 2.1 at a fairly superficial level, without troubling too much about Avalon, etc. Worked fine but adding a block was a pain. I now have an app working in 2.2 but I had to deal with several simultaneous learning curves and it took far longer than it should have done. My 2c Robin - Original Message - From: Robby Pelssers To: users@cocoon.apache.org ; Andreas Kuehne Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 9:12 AM Subject: RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Maybe the learning curve got a bit steeper for Cocoon2.2 but I disagree that this is inherent to Cocoon itself. Cocoon2.2 still allows you to do use the sitemap as before and building a complete webapp with optional usage of - Flowscript/jxtemplate - Cocoon forms - Xslt - … without ever having to write a single line of Java. It took me 1 week to completely make the switch from Cocoon2.1.11 to Cocoon2.2. And building blocks and wiring them up (dependencies) in the servlet-context.xml is really simple. The switch to Maven is a generic tendency seen in all open source projects, so not only Cocoon…. Who will tell when we all switch to Craddle (and have to learn yet another build tool and programming language Groovy). And the switch from Avalon to Spring was also a complete logical step… it has become the de facto standard for doing dependency injection and it comes bundled with a lot of usefull integration classes for most frameworks (Castor, XStream, Quartz, …) and AOP. And for the ones who still think the only decent JVM language is Java… think twice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages If you ask me this discussion is more about people resisting change in Software development in general because they have to adapt (again) to new technologies. Cheers, Robby Pelssers From: Andreas Kuehne [mailto:akue...@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 3:40 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Hi, for me it's also true : Didn't see any real need to got to 2.2. or beyond ! 2.1 does anything for me, huge apps with heavy load as well as quick solutions. To the major problem of cocoon is : It's ready ! No burning needs for new functionality, no major tasks on the todo list. Fiddeling with another base framework ( spring instead of avalon ) or build tool ( maven vs. ant ) doesn't make any user more happy. I can do what I need any van even impress competitors with speed and performance. Maintainance mode or not, I'm happy with it ! Greetings Andreas
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Hi Robby, your reasons are perfectly valid for a developer ! Yes, I want / need to have experience with Spring / Maven in my resume, too ! But the dilemma of cocoon to it's success : Having a missing critical web app for millions of user running smoothly, you're not eager to make foundation changes without a good reason. An 'Spring is cool' isn't a reason you can sell to a management ! And the same with my OS projects : While being busy to implement some brand new specs I don't give a damn about the resource management in use. I can do the job with 2.1 ! As another guy already mentioned : There is a substantial gap between developers and users ! The developers want to move on, the users want to habve it stable. But this mustn't be a big problem. Thanks again to all the brilliant developers that did a great job ! Yes, move on, focus for the next cool stuff. Now it's up to the users of Cocoon to support the maintainance for some years and we can all go on being happy .. And a quite list mustn't be that bad : Maybe all the major bugs are solved ;-) Greetings Andreas From: Robby Pelssers robby.pelss...@ciber.com To: users@cocoon.apache.org; Andreas Kuehne kue...@trustable.de Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 10:12:14 AM Subject: RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Maybe the learning curve got a bit steeper for Cocoon2.2 but I disagree that this is inherent to Cocoon itself. Cocoon2.2 still allows you to do use the sitemap as before and building a complete webapp with optional usage of - Flowscript/jxtemplate - Cocoon forms - Xslt - … without ever having to write a single line of Java. It took me 1 week to completely make the switch from Cocoon2.1.11 to Cocoon2.2. And building blocks and wiring them up (dependencies) in the servlet-context.xml is really simple. The switch to Maven is a generic tendency seen in all open source projects, so not only Cocoon…. Who will tell when we all switch to Craddle (and have to learn yet another build tool and programming language Groovy). And the switch from Avalon to Spring was also a complete logical step… it has become the de facto standard for doing dependency injection and it comes bundled with a lot of usefull integration classes for most frameworks (Castor, XStream, Quartz, …) and AOP. And for the ones who still think the only decent JVM language is Java… think twice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages If you ask me this discussion is more about people resisting change in Software development in general because they have to adapt (again) to new technologies. Cheers, Robby Pelssers From:Andreas Kuehne [mailto:akue...@yahoo.com] Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 3:40 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Hi, for me it's also true : Didn't see any real need to got to 2.2. or beyond ! 2.1 does anything for me, huge apps with heavy load as well as quick solutions. To the major problem of cocoon is : It's ready ! No burning needs for new functionality, no major tasks on the todo list. Fiddeling with another base framework ( spring instead of avalon ) or build tool ( maven vs. ant ) doesn't make any user more happy. I can do what I need any van even impress competitors with speed and performance. Maintainance mode or not, I'm happy with it ! Greetings Andreas
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
I pretty much agree with what Robby just wrote. There are certain differences of course between Cocoon 2.2 and earlier versions, which may be somewhat difficult to grasp. Maven is a standard build tool and it is well supported by Netbeans and other similar tools. It is easy to construct an cocoon application with Netbeans. Also, the use of Spring is a logical choice. It would takes a few days to learn, but it is worth the effort. If you already know Cocoon 2.1, the switch to Cocoon 2.2 is not really hard (again, takes a few days). All in all, as Robby indicated, it may take you a week or so to convert to C2.2. The only concern I have is the level of documentation in C2.2 and also C3. On the other hand, some of documentation that was already available under Cocoon 2.1 that is also applicable to C2.2 (like flowscript/jxtemplate) could (should) have been transferred to C2.2. I wish the development of cocoon 2.2 or cocoon 3 would continue. With the recent emphasis on RESTful web services, I believe that cocoon 2.2 / 3 could become a major player in that direction. All the tools one would require for a RESTful web application are essentially available. Many representations (Json, XML, txt, etc) of resources can easily be prepared with XSLT. In that respect, I would claim that Cocoon was ahead of its time, because the ability to generate various representations from the same source (usually XML) was always seen as one of Cocoon's strengths. Also, the introduction of blocks in C2.2 is quite compatible with the way of thinking of RESTful URIs. So, in my opinion, Cocoon is a great tool and we should continue to use it. And we should start ask questions again. Questions means interest and interest stimulates further development. Best, André Robby Pelssers wrote: Maybe the learning curve got a bit steeper for Cocoon2.2 but I disagree that this is inherent to Cocoon itself. Cocoon2.2 still allows you to do use the sitemap as before and building a complete webapp with optional usage of - Flowscript/jxtemplate - Cocoon forms - Xslt - … without ever having to write a single line of Java. It took me 1 week to completely make the switch from Cocoon2.1.11 to Cocoon2.2. And building blocks and wiring them up (dependencies) in the servlet-context.xml is really simple. The switch to Maven is a generic tendency seen in all open source projects, so not only Cocoon…. Who will tell when we all switch to Craddle (and have to learn yet another build tool and programming language Groovy). And the switch from Avalon to Spring was also a complete logical step… it has become the de facto standard for doing dependency injection and it comes bundled with a lot of usefull integration classes for most frameworks (Castor, XStream, Quartz, …) and AOP. And for the ones who still think the only decent JVM language is Java… think twice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages If you ask me this discussion is more about people resisting change in Software development in general because they have to adapt (again) to new technologies. Cheers, Robby Pelssers *From:* Andreas Kuehne [mailto:akue...@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Sunday, April 18, 2010 3:40 PM *To:* users@cocoon.apache.org *Subject:* Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Hi, for me it's also true : Didn't see any real need to got to 2.2. or beyond ! 2.1 does anything for me, huge apps with heavy load as well as quick solutions. To the major problem of cocoon is : It's ready ! No burning needs for new functionality, no major tasks on the todo list. Fiddeling with another base framework ( spring instead of avalon ) or build tool ( maven vs. ant ) doesn't make any user more happy. I can do what I need any van even impress competitors with speed and performance. Maintainance mode or not, I'm happy with it ! Greetings Andreas -- Andre H. Juffer | Phone: +358-8-553 1161 Biocenter Oulu and | Fax: +358-8-553-1141 Department of Biochemistry | Email: andre.juf...@oulu.fi University of Oulu, Finland | WWW: www.biochem.oulu.fi/Biocomputing/ StruBioCat | WWW: www.strubiocat.oulu.fi NordProt | WWW: www.nordprot.org Triacle Biocomputing | WWW: www.triacle-bc.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Ok. I have to agree on the documentation issue. This certainly hasn't approved and for usage of sitemap components I still tend to use the Cocoon2.1.x docs. I do believe as well that Cocoon forms in combination with flowscript was state of the art back then but other frameworks are doing an equally good or even better job nowadays. Cocoon is still my preferred tool to do xml transformations but if you want to build highly dynamic interactive webapps you might as well take a look around for other available options. But this is where Cocoon3.0 comes into play... Instead of building your complete webapp with the Cocoon framework you can now choose your preferred framework (GWT, Wicket, - http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks ) and outsource the xml stuff to Cocoon3 by just using the Java API. Also check out Reinhard's effort for howto http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/html-single/index.html#wicket-integration And I expect I'll make the switch to Cocoon3 over the next year because of this reason. On the other hand the first implementations of XPROC are available which resembles a lot what cocoon has to offer... Cheers, Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:45 AM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? I pretty much agree with what Robby just wrote. There are certain differences of course between Cocoon 2.2 and earlier versions, which may be somewhat difficult to grasp. Maven is a standard build tool and it is well supported by Netbeans and other similar tools. It is easy to construct an cocoon application with Netbeans. Also, the use of Spring is a logical choice. It would takes a few days to learn, but it is worth the effort. If you already know Cocoon 2.1, the switch to Cocoon 2.2 is not really hard (again, takes a few days). All in all, as Robby indicated, it may take you a week or so to convert to C2.2. The only concern I have is the level of documentation in C2.2 and also C3. On the other hand, some of documentation that was already available under Cocoon 2.1 that is also applicable to C2.2 (like flowscript/jxtemplate) could (should) have been transferred to C2.2. I wish the development of cocoon 2.2 or cocoon 3 would continue. With the recent emphasis on RESTful web services, I believe that cocoon 2.2 / 3 could become a major player in that direction. All the tools one would require for a RESTful web application are essentially available. Many representations (Json, XML, txt, etc) of resources can easily be prepared with XSLT. In that respect, I would claim that Cocoon was ahead of its time, because the ability to generate various representations from the same source (usually XML) was always seen as one of Cocoon's strengths. Also, the introduction of blocks in C2.2 is quite compatible with the way of thinking of RESTful URIs. So, in my opinion, Cocoon is a great tool and we should continue to use it. And we should start ask questions again. Questions means interest and interest stimulates further development. Best, André - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
On 19/apr/10, at 11:20, Robby Pelssers wrote: Ok. I have to agree on the documentation issue. This certainly hasn't approved and for usage of sitemap components I still tend to use the Cocoon2.1.x docs. I do believe as well that Cocoon forms in combination with flowscript was state of the art back then but other frameworks are doing an equally good or even better job nowadays. Cocoon is still my preferred tool to do xml transformations but if you want to build highly dynamic interactive webapps you might as well take a look around for other available options. But this is where Cocoon3.0 comes into play... Instead of building your complete webapp with the Cocoon framework you can now choose your preferred framework (GWT, Wicket, - http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks ) and outsource the xml stuff to Cocoon3 by just using the Java API. Also check out Reinhard's effort for howto http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/html-single/index.html#wicket-integration And I expect I'll make the switch to Cocoon3 over the next year because of this reason. I totally agree with this approach: I personally see much of Cocoon's future in Cocoon 3. I am also considering to use it to build a REST interface for one of our projects in Italy: I'll keep the list updated about how this is going. On the other hand the first implementations of XPROC are available which resembles a lot what cocoon has to offer... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Robby Pelssers wrote: Ok. I have to agree on the documentation issue. This certainly hasn't approved and for usage of sitemap components I still tend to use the Cocoon2.1.x docs. I do believe as well that Cocoon forms in combination with flowscript was state of the art back then but other frameworks are doing an equally good or even better job nowadays. Cocoon is still my preferred tool to do xml transformations but if you want to build highly dynamic interactive webapps you might as well take a look around for other available options. But this is where Cocoon3.0 comes into play... Instead of building your complete webapp with the Cocoon framework you can now choose your preferred framework (GWT, Wicket, - http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks ) and outsource the xml stuff to Cocoon3 by just using the Java API. Also check out Reinhard's effort for howto http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/html-single/index.html#wicket-integration Yes, this is exactly how I would like to work with Cocoon. My preference is the dojo toolkit, though. And I expect I'll make the switch to Cocoon3 over the next year because of this reason. On the other hand the first implementations of XPROC are available which resembles a lot what cocoon has to offer... Was not aware of this one. I'll have a look. Cheers, Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:45 AM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? I pretty much agree with what Robby just wrote. There are certain differences of course between Cocoon 2.2 and earlier versions, which may be somewhat difficult to grasp. Maven is a standard build tool and it is well supported by Netbeans and other similar tools. It is easy to construct an cocoon application with Netbeans. Also, the use of Spring is a logical choice. It would takes a few days to learn, but it is worth the effort. If you already know Cocoon 2.1, the switch to Cocoon 2.2 is not really hard (again, takes a few days). All in all, as Robby indicated, it may take you a week or so to convert to C2.2. The only concern I have is the level of documentation in C2.2 and also C3. On the other hand, some of documentation that was already available under Cocoon 2.1 that is also applicable to C2.2 (like flowscript/jxtemplate) could (should) have been transferred to C2.2. I wish the development of cocoon 2.2 or cocoon 3 would continue. With the recent emphasis on RESTful web services, I believe that cocoon 2.2 / 3 could become a major player in that direction. All the tools one would require for a RESTful web application are essentially available. Many representations (Json, XML, txt, etc) of resources can easily be prepared with XSLT. In that respect, I would claim that Cocoon was ahead of its time, because the ability to generate various representations from the same source (usually XML) was always seen as one of Cocoon's strengths. Also, the introduction of blocks in C2.2 is quite compatible with the way of thinking of RESTful URIs. So, in my opinion, Cocoon is a great tool and we should continue to use it. And we should start ask questions again. Questions means interest and interest stimulates further development. Best, André - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org -- Andre H. Juffer | Phone: +358-8-553 1161 Biocenter Oulu and | Fax: +358-8-553-1141 Department of Biochemistry | Email: andre.juf...@oulu.fi University of Oulu, Finland | WWW: www.biochem.oulu.fi/Biocomputing/ StruBioCat | WWW: www.strubiocat.oulu.fi NordProt | WWW: www.nordprot.org Triacle Biocomputing | WWW: www.triacle-bc.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Hi all, Remember : Putting Based on Maven and Spring on your homepage sounds much better at the moment than Based on Ant and Avalon (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox//cocoon-users/200902.mbox/%3cgm9hos$cn...@ger.gmane.org%3e). Who cares ? And what about XSP ? Which was a fast and reliable way to build webapps. Remember XSP is evil (just find out the post ;-) ). As pointed out, there seems to be a real gap between real world needs and developpers' wishes to create the silver bullet (take a look at the google cache). No need to move to Cocoon 2 ou 3 or 10, other frameworks do the job. Or come back to Jsp / servlets Best wishes, André Ok. I have to agree on the documentation issue. This certainly hasn't approved and for usage of sitemap components I still tend to use the Cocoon2.1.x docs. I do believe as well that Cocoon forms in combination with flowscript was state of the art back then but other frameworks are doing an equally good or even better job nowadays. Cocoon is still my preferred tool to do xml transformations but if you want to build highly dynamic interactive webapps you might as well take a look around for other available options. But this is where Cocoon3.0 comes into play... Instead of building your complete webapp with the Cocoon framework you can now choose your preferred framework (GWT, Wicket, - http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks ) and outsource the xml stuff to Cocoon3 by just using the Java API. Also check out Reinhard's effort for howto http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/html-single/index.html#wicket-integration And I expect I'll make the switch to Cocoon3 over the next year because of this reason. On the other hand the first implementations of XPROC are available which resembles a lot what cocoon has to offer... Cheers, Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:45 AM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? I pretty much agree with what Robby just wrote. There are certain differences of course between Cocoon 2.2 and earlier versions, which may be somewhat difficult to grasp. Maven is a standard build tool and it is well supported by Netbeans and other similar tools. It is easy to construct an cocoon application with Netbeans. Also, the use of Spring is a logical choice. It would takes a few days to learn, but it is worth the effort. If you already know Cocoon 2.1, the switch to Cocoon 2.2 is not really hard (again, takes a few days). All in all, as Robby indicated, it may take you a week or so to convert to C2.2. The only concern I have is the level of documentation in C2.2 and also C3. On the other hand, some of documentation that was already available under Cocoon 2.1 that is also applicable to C2.2 (like flowscript/jxtemplate) could (should) have been transferred to C2.2. I wish the development of cocoon 2.2 or cocoon 3 would continue. With the recent emphasis on RESTful web services, I believe that cocoon 2.2 / 3 could become a major player in that direction. All the tools one would require for a RESTful web application are essentially available. Many representations (Json, XML, txt, etc) of resources can easily be prepared with XSLT. In that respect, I would claim that Cocoon was ahead of its time, because the ability to generate various representations from the same source (usually XML) was always seen as one of Cocoon's strengths. Also, the introduction of blocks in C2.2 is quite compatible with the way of thinking of RESTful URIs. So, in my opinion, Cocoon is a great tool and we should continue to use it. And we should start ask questions again. Questions means interest and interest stimulates further development. Best, André - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
There is no real need to move ... totally agree. But once you become familiar with - agile development - unit-testing (junit spring-test) - dependency injection (Spring) - AOP - Cocoon-spring-configurator - reloading class loader (RCL) You might finally see the benefits from switching to newer versions. I've been working completely solo for the past 2 years on several Cocoon modules (which could be compared with 1 application) and most of the times I can show incremental results using 1 week iterations. I do small new released and receive immediate feedback from the customer. I actually have been combining/integrating - YUI2.7 - YUI3 - Xstream - Axis - Quartz Job scheduler - ... into my modules without much difficulties and that's due to the complete new set of technologies at hand. If there is a real need to get some real live use case (instead of hellow world) elaborated I'm more than happy to contribute to a demo application which can be checked out to view the sources and explain step-by-step how you can setup your cocoon-app. Anybody who has a nice suggestion? Robby -Original Message- From: André Davignon [mailto:andre.davig...@free.fr] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:51 AM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Hi all, Remember : Putting Based on Maven and Spring on your homepage sounds much better at the moment than Based on Ant and Avalon (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox//cocoon-users/200902.mbox/%3cgm9hos$cn...@ger.gmane.org%3e). Who cares ? And what about XSP ? Which was a fast and reliable way to build webapps. Remember XSP is evil (just find out the post ;-) ). As pointed out, there seems to be a real gap between real world needs and developpers' wishes to create the silver bullet (take a look at the google cache). No need to move to Cocoon 2 ou 3 or 10, other frameworks do the job. Or come back to Jsp / servlets Best wishes, André Ok. I have to agree on the documentation issue. This certainly hasn't approved and for usage of sitemap components I still tend to use the Cocoon2.1.x docs. I do believe as well that Cocoon forms in combination with flowscript was state of the art back then but other frameworks are doing an equally good or even better job nowadays. Cocoon is still my preferred tool to do xml transformations but if you want to build highly dynamic interactive webapps you might as well take a look around for other available options. But this is where Cocoon3.0 comes into play... Instead of building your complete webapp with the Cocoon framework you can now choose your preferred framework (GWT, Wicket, - http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks ) and outsource the xml stuff to Cocoon3 by just using the Java API. Also check out Reinhard's effort for howto http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/html-single/index.html#wicket-integration And I expect I'll make the switch to Cocoon3 over the next year because of this reason. On the other hand the first implementations of XPROC are available which resembles a lot what cocoon has to offer... Cheers, Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:45 AM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? I pretty much agree with what Robby just wrote. There are certain differences of course between Cocoon 2.2 and earlier versions, which may be somewhat difficult to grasp. Maven is a standard build tool and it is well supported by Netbeans and other similar tools. It is easy to construct an cocoon application with Netbeans. Also, the use of Spring is a logical choice. It would takes a few days to learn, but it is worth the effort. If you already know Cocoon 2.1, the switch to Cocoon 2.2 is not really hard (again, takes a few days). All in all, as Robby indicated, it may take you a week or so to convert to C2.2. The only concern I have is the level of documentation in C2.2 and also C3. On the other hand, some of documentation that was already available under Cocoon 2.1 that is also applicable to C2.2 (like flowscript/jxtemplate) could (should) have been transferred to C2.2. I wish the development of cocoon 2.2 or cocoon 3 would continue. With the recent emphasis on RESTful web services, I believe that cocoon 2.2 / 3 could become a major player in that direction. All the tools one would require for a RESTful web application are essentially available. Many representations (Json, XML, txt, etc) of resources can easily be prepared with XSLT. In that respect, I would claim that Cocoon was ahead of its time, because the ability to generate various representations from the same source (usually XML) was always seen as one of Cocoon's strengths. Also, the introduction of blocks in C2.2 is quite compatible with the way of thinking of RESTful URIs. So, in
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Robby Pelssers wrote: There is no real need to move ... totally agree. But once you become familiar with - agile development - unit-testing (junit spring-test) - dependency injection (Spring) - AOP - Cocoon-spring-configurator - reloading class loader (RCL) You might finally see the benefits from switching to newer versions. I've been working completely solo for the past 2 years on several Cocoon modules (which could be compared with 1 application) and most of the times I can show incremental results using 1 week iterations. I do small new released and receive immediate feedback from the customer. I actually have been combining/integrating - YUI2.7 - YUI3 - Xstream - Axis - Quartz Job scheduler - ... into my modules without much difficulties and that's due to the complete new set of technologies at hand. If there is a real need to get some real live use case (instead of hellow world) elaborated I'm more than happy to contribute to a demo application which can be checked out to view the sources and explain step-by-step how you can setup your cocoon-app. Anybody who has a nice suggestion? How about the following. The domain-driven design (DDD), my personal favorite, community has an example (in Java) available based on the cargo shipping domain. Have a look at http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/node/42 We could arrange for combining this demo project with cocoon as the layer between the UI and the domain. Robby -Original Message- From: André Davignon [mailto:andre.davig...@free.fr] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 11:51 AM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Hi all, Remember : Putting Based on Maven and Spring on your homepage sounds much better at the moment than Based on Ant and Avalon (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox//cocoon-users/200902.mbox/%3cgm9hos$cn...@ger.gmane.org%3e). Who cares ? And what about XSP ? Which was a fast and reliable way to build webapps. Remember XSP is evil (just find out the post ;-) ). As pointed out, there seems to be a real gap between real world needs and developpers' wishes to create the silver bullet (take a look at the google cache). No need to move to Cocoon 2 ou 3 or 10, other frameworks do the job. Or come back to Jsp / servlets Best wishes, André Ok. I have to agree on the documentation issue. This certainly hasn't approved and for usage of sitemap components I still tend to use the Cocoon2.1.x docs. I do believe as well that Cocoon forms in combination with flowscript was state of the art back then but other frameworks are doing an equally good or even better job nowadays. Cocoon is still my preferred tool to do xml transformations but if you want to build highly dynamic interactive webapps you might as well take a look around for other available options. But this is where Cocoon3.0 comes into play... Instead of building your complete webapp with the Cocoon framework you can now choose your preferred framework (GWT, Wicket, - http://java-source.net/open-source/web-frameworks ) and outsource the xml stuff to Cocoon3 by just using the Java API. Also check out Reinhard's effort for howto http://cocoon.apache.org/3.0/reference/html-single/index.html#wicket-integration And I expect I'll make the switch to Cocoon3 over the next year because of this reason. On the other hand the first implementations of XPROC are available which resembles a lot what cocoon has to offer... Cheers, Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:45 AM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? I pretty much agree with what Robby just wrote. There are certain differences of course between Cocoon 2.2 and earlier versions, which may be somewhat difficult to grasp. Maven is a standard build tool and it is well supported by Netbeans and other similar tools. It is easy to construct an cocoon application with Netbeans. Also, the use of Spring is a logical choice. It would takes a few days to learn, but it is worth the effort. If you already know Cocoon 2.1, the switch to Cocoon 2.2 is not really hard (again, takes a few days). All in all, as Robby indicated, it may take you a week or so to convert to C2.2. The only concern I have is the level of documentation in C2.2 and also C3. On the other hand, some of documentation that was already available under Cocoon 2.1 that is also applicable to C2.2 (like flowscript/jxtemplate) could (should) have been transferred to C2.2. I wish the development of cocoon 2.2 or cocoon 3 would continue. With the recent emphasis on RESTful web services, I believe that cocoon 2.2 / 3 could become a major player in that direction. All the tools one would require for a RESTful web application are essentially available. Many representations (Json, XML, txt, etc) of resources can easily be prepared with XSLT. In
RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
I'll give this some more thought over the next few weeks... I'm in the middle of moving but starting from May I could start thinking of writing some small demo app... the most important question left is to whether we should create a demo using Cocoon2.2 or Cocoon3 (not much experience yet). Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 12:37 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Robby Pelssers wrote: There is no real need to move ... totally agree. But once you become familiar with - agile development - unit-testing (junit spring-test) - dependency injection (Spring) - AOP - Cocoon-spring-configurator - reloading class loader (RCL) You might finally see the benefits from switching to newer versions. I've been working completely solo for the past 2 years on several Cocoon modules (which could be compared with 1 application) and most of the times I can show incremental results using 1 week iterations. I do small new released and receive immediate feedback from the customer. I actually have been combining/integrating - YUI2.7 - YUI3 - Xstream - Axis - Quartz Job scheduler - ... into my modules without much difficulties and that's due to the complete new set of technologies at hand. If there is a real need to get some real live use case (instead of hellow world) elaborated I'm more than happy to contribute to a demo application which can be checked out to view the sources and explain step-by-step how you can setup your cocoon-app. Anybody who has a nice suggestion? How about the following. The domain-driven design (DDD), my personal favorite, community has an example (in Java) available based on the cargo shipping domain. Have a look at http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/node/42 We could arrange for combining this demo project with cocoon as the layer between the UI and the domain. Robby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Robby Pelssers wrote: I'll give this some more thought over the next few weeks... I'm in the middle of moving but starting from May I could start thinking of writing some small demo app... the most important question left is to whether we should create a demo using Cocoon2.2 or Cocoon3 (not much experience yet). I would think (expect) that everything I can do with C2.2, I should be able to do with C3. So, we could start with C2.2, and extend to C3 to demonstrate alternative implementations as soon as C3 is more mature. I have no experience with C3 as of yet. Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 12:37 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Robby Pelssers wrote: There is no real need to move ... totally agree. But once you become familiar with - agile development - unit-testing (junit spring-test) - dependency injection (Spring) - AOP - Cocoon-spring-configurator - reloading class loader (RCL) You might finally see the benefits from switching to newer versions. I've been working completely solo for the past 2 years on several Cocoon modules (which could be compared with 1 application) and most of the times I can show incremental results using 1 week iterations. I do small new released and receive immediate feedback from the customer. I actually have been combining/integrating - YUI2.7 - YUI3 - Xstream - Axis - Quartz Job scheduler - ... into my modules without much difficulties and that's due to the complete new set of technologies at hand. If there is a real need to get some real live use case (instead of hellow world) elaborated I'm more than happy to contribute to a demo application which can be checked out to view the sources and explain step-by-step how you can setup your cocoon-app. Anybody who has a nice suggestion? How about the following. The domain-driven design (DDD), my personal favorite, community has an example (in Java) available based on the cargo shipping domain. Have a look at http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/node/42 We could arrange for combining this demo project with cocoon as the layer between the UI and the domain. Robby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org -- Andre H. Juffer | Phone: +358-8-553 1161 Biocenter Oulu and | Fax: +358-8-553-1141 Department of Biochemistry | Email: andre.juf...@oulu.fi University of Oulu, Finland | WWW: www.biochem.oulu.fi/Biocomputing/ StruBioCat | WWW: www.strubiocat.oulu.fi NordProt | WWW: www.nordprot.org Triacle Biocomputing | WWW: www.triacle-bc.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
I too agree with Robby on a lot of points. My thoughts on this are that Cocoon 2.1 was sort of getting into it's maintainance phase where no real functionality was added anymore. There is already so much functionality in there! As far as I know there are still many people working with Cocoon 2.1 these days. Cocoon developers still pick up patches from JIRA and commit them into the 2.1 Branch. As a project you want to improve and sometimes this means change. Therefor I think it was a good move to use Spring as a base for Cocoon 2.2. Spring itself has a huge community and it could have attracted a lot of new people to the Cocoon project. If you already have Spring knowledge, the learning curve would have been less then it was before. As a side note I do want to mention that it has never been necessary to upgrade to 2.2 (at least I have not seen any issues that required me to move). Cocoon 2.1 is also still supported. If you really want to use Spring and like the 'blocks' concept you *could* make the switch. With Cocoon 3 I see an interesting shift in less configuration and more programming. I personally like this improvement and I know quite some people that disliked Cocoon 2.1 for it's overhead on XML configuration files. In short. I don't think that less activity on the user list means that people have less interest for Cocoon itself, even though some people might have moved on to other projects, Cocoon itself is still in use by a lot of people and if you have any issues please let us know. Jeroen On 04/19/2010 10:44 AM, Andre Juffer wrote: I pretty much agree with what Robby just wrote. There are certain differences of course between Cocoon 2.2 and earlier versions, which may be somewhat difficult to grasp. Maven is a standard build tool and it is well supported by Netbeans and other similar tools. It is easy to construct an cocoon application with Netbeans. Also, the use of Spring is a logical choice. It would takes a few days to learn, but it is worth the effort. If you already know Cocoon 2.1, the switch to Cocoon 2.2 is not really hard (again, takes a few days). All in all, as Robby indicated, it may take you a week or so to convert to C2.2. The only concern I have is the level of documentation in C2.2 and also C3. On the other hand, some of documentation that was already available under Cocoon 2.1 that is also applicable to C2.2 (like flowscript/jxtemplate) could (should) have been transferred to C2.2. I wish the development of cocoon 2.2 or cocoon 3 would continue. With the recent emphasis on RESTful web services, I believe that cocoon 2.2 / 3 could become a major player in that direction. All the tools one would require for a RESTful web application are essentially available. Many representations (Json, XML, txt, etc) of resources can easily be prepared with XSLT. In that respect, I would claim that Cocoon was ahead of its time, because the ability to generate various representations from the same source (usually XML) was always seen as one of Cocoon's strengths. Also, the introduction of blocks in C2.2 is quite compatible with the way of thinking of RESTful URIs. So, in my opinion, Cocoon is a great tool and we should continue to use it. And we should start ask questions again. Questions means interest and interest stimulates further development. Best, André Robby Pelssers wrote: Maybe the learning curve got a bit steeper for Cocoon2.2 but I disagree that this is inherent to Cocoon itself. Cocoon2.2 still allows you to do use the sitemap as before and building a complete webapp with optional usage of - Flowscript/jxtemplate - Cocoon forms - Xslt - … without ever having to write a single line of Java. It took me 1 week to completely make the switch from Cocoon2.1.11 to Cocoon2.2. And building blocks and wiring them up (dependencies) in the servlet-context.xml is really simple. The switch to Maven is a generic tendency seen in all open source projects, so not only Cocoon…. Who will tell when we all switch to Craddle (and have to learn yet another build tool and programming language Groovy). And the switch from Avalon to Spring was also a complete logical step… it has become the de facto standard for doing dependency injection and it comes bundled with a lot of usefull integration classes for most frameworks (Castor, XStream, Quartz, …) and AOP. And for the ones who still think the only decent JVM language is Java… think twice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages If you ask me this discussion is more about people resisting change in Software development in general because they have to adapt (again) to new technologies. Cheers, Robby Pelssers *From:* Andreas Kuehne [mailto:akue...@yahoo.com] *Sent:* Sunday, April 18, 2010 3:40 PM *To:* users@cocoon.apache.org *Subject:* Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Hi, for me it's also true : Didn't see any real need to got to 2.2. or beyond ! 2.1 does anything for me, huge
Re: switch Cocoon 2.2 spring dependencies from 2.5.1 to 2.5.6
Hi Robby, I guess it's just changing a maven dependency version right? Maybe we could raise this on the dev list and see if any of the initial 2.2 developers would have any issues with bumping this version. Jeroen On 04/07/2010 05:04 PM, Robby Pelssers wrote: I need to integrate spring-ws within my cocoon application and this is giving me headaches (probably) due to dependency conflicts. So can anyone explain how to make the switch (on Cocoon side) from using spring 2.5.1 to spring 2.5.6? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
RE: switch Cocoon 2.2 spring dependencies from 2.5.1 to 2.5.6
I already resolved my problem by using an old version of Axis... had some minor issues though but I tackled all of them. But it's still nice to know of course. Cheers, Robby -Original Message- From: Jeroen Reijn [mailto:j.re...@onehippo.com] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 2:53 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: switch Cocoon 2.2 spring dependencies from 2.5.1 to 2.5.6 Hi Robby, I guess it's just changing a maven dependency version right? Maybe we could raise this on the dev list and see if any of the initial 2.2 developers would have any issues with bumping this version. Jeroen On 04/07/2010 05:04 PM, Robby Pelssers wrote: I need to integrate spring-ws within my cocoon application and this is giving me headaches (probably) due to dependency conflicts. So can anyone explain how to make the switch (on Cocoon side) from using spring 2.5.1 to spring 2.5.6? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Hi Robby, I'm really interested in seeing what the YUI integration is about ! Please keep us informed ... Greetings Andreas - Original Message From: Robby Pelssers robby.pelss...@ciber.com To: users@cocoon.apache.org Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 1:03:48 PM Subject: RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts? I'll give this some more thought over the next few weeks... I'm in the middle of moving but starting from May I could start thinking of writing some small demo app... the most important question left is to whether we should create a demo using Cocoon2.2 or Cocoon3 (not much experience yet). Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 12:37 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Robby Pelssers wrote: There is no real need to move ... totally agree. But once you become familiar with - agile development - unit-testing (junit spring-test) - dependency injection (Spring) - AOP - Cocoon-spring-configurator - reloading class loader (RCL) You might finally see the benefits from switching to newer versions. I've been working completely solo for the past 2 years on several Cocoon modules (which could be compared with 1 application) and most of the times I can show incremental results using 1 week iterations. I do small new released and receive immediate feedback from the customer. I actually have been combining/integrating - YUI2.7 - YUI3 - Xstream - Axis - Quartz Job scheduler - ... into my modules without much difficulties and that's due to the complete new set of technologies at hand. If there is a real need to get some real live use case (instead of hellow world) elaborated I'm more than happy to contribute to a demo application which can be checked out to view the sources and explain step-by-step how you can setup your cocoon-app. Anybody who has a nice suggestion? How about the following. The domain-driven design (DDD), my personal favorite, community has an example (in Java) available based on the cargo shipping domain. Have a look at http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/node/42 We could arrange for combining this demo project with cocoon as the layer between the UI and the domain. Robby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
I too see a widening gap between development and the user base. It seemed as though, when 2.2 came out, those who knew how it worked had already lost interest in it and were in hot pursuit of 3.0. 2.1 (where most of the users were, and perhaps still are) was left twisting slowly in the wind. 2.1 documentation is thin, but 2.2's is worse than none at all: one loses hours following circles of links thinking, there must be something here *somewhere*! Asking questions is good, but there's no reward for the behavior when the only answer is try 3.0. It's clear that a number of folks feel abandoned, and few will talk when they think no one is listening. There's nothing wrong with improving the product, and the changes in Cocoon make sense. (I can't name any other user of the Avalon framework with the same significance as Cocoon -- and the Avalon documentation is tremendously frustrating too. There are a gazillion books on Spring.) But without *thorough, complete* documentation and just plain attention to older versions, there's no bridge from where many of us are to where Cocoon stands today. Using Maven makes sense, but there's a problem too, because Maven is also woefully under-documented. So the build process becomes a mystery wrapped in an enigma. OK, theoretically there's less need to build Cocoon 2.2+; in practice there's a very great need to apply a number of patches that should have gone into a 2.2.1 long ago, and then debug further. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu Balance your desire for bells and whistles with the reality that only a little more than 2 percent of world population has broadband. -- Ledford and Tyler, _Google Analytics 2.0_ pgpMzMYi57k4v.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 12:19:28PM +0200, Robby Pelssers wrote: There is no real need to move ... totally agree. But once you become familiar with - agile development - unit-testing (junit spring-test) - dependency injection (Spring) - AOP - Cocoon-spring-configurator - reloading class loader (RCL) You might finally see the benefits from switching to newer versions. Oh, the *benefits* are easy enough to see. It's the how-to-switch that's clear as mud. Like the famous S. Harris cartoon, I think we need to be more explicit in step two. (Step 1: lots of math Step 2: then a miracle occurs Step 3: lots of *completely different-looking* math) -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer mw...@iupui.edu Balance your desire for bells and whistles with the reality that only a little more than 2 percent of world population has broadband. -- Ledford and Tyler, _Google Analytics 2.0_ pgpruualxbpat.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Hi Andreas, Integration in this case means nothing more than using it, but YUI2 provides a http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/yuiloader/ and YUI3 provides the even nicer http://69.147.76.210/yui/3/yui/ YUI global object in which you can declare needed dependencies. It becomes relative easy to construct nice widgets which you could construct from parsing xml data or transforming your xml data to JSON. I especially like their object oriented 'minded' javascript API (mix, extend, augment) and advanced event API. Anyway... would be nice to create some fancy demo material using it. Robby -Original Message- From: Andreas Kuehne [mailto:akue...@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 3:37 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Hi Robby, I'm really interested in seeing what the YUI integration is about ! Please keep us informed ... Greetings Andreas - Original Message From: Robby Pelssers robby.pelss...@ciber.com To: users@cocoon.apache.org Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 1:03:48 PM Subject: RE: Lowering in amount of users' posts? I'll give this some more thought over the next few weeks... I'm in the middle of moving but starting from May I could start thinking of writing some small demo app... the most important question left is to whether we should create a demo using Cocoon2.2 or Cocoon3 (not much experience yet). Robby -Original Message- From: Andre Juffer [mailto:andre.juf...@oulu.fi] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 12:37 PM To: users@cocoon.apache.org Subject: Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts? Robby Pelssers wrote: There is no real need to move ... totally agree. But once you become familiar with - agile development - unit-testing (junit spring-test) - dependency injection (Spring) - AOP - Cocoon-spring-configurator - reloading class loader (RCL) You might finally see the benefits from switching to newer versions. I've been working completely solo for the past 2 years on several Cocoon modules (which could be compared with 1 application) and most of the times I can show incremental results using 1 week iterations. I do small new released and receive immediate feedback from the customer. I actually have been combining/integrating - YUI2.7 - YUI3 - Xstream - Axis - Quartz Job scheduler - ... into my modules without much difficulties and that's due to the complete new set of technologies at hand. If there is a real need to get some real live use case (instead of hellow world) elaborated I'm more than happy to contribute to a demo application which can be checked out to view the sources and explain step-by-step how you can setup your cocoon-app. Anybody who has a nice suggestion? How about the following. The domain-driven design (DDD), my personal favorite, community has an example (in Java) available based on the cargo shipping domain. Have a look at http://www.domaindrivendesign.org/node/42 We could arrange for combining this demo project with cocoon as the layer between the UI and the domain. Robby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
On 19/04/10 15:52, Mark H. Wood wrote: Oh, the *benefits* are easy enough to see. It's the how-to-switch that's clear as mud. You've alreadty read Vadim's presentation and samples [1], right ? Regards, [1] http://reverycodes.com/gt/Cocoon%202.2%20Classic.ppt Luca Morandini www.lucamorandini.it - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: Lowering in amount of users' posts?
Ok, thank you everybody for all the replies. I guess there's more of a community than I'd imagined. I didnt expect to raise such a stir! :) If I may, might I ask one further question, then? When I was into Cocoon back in the very beginning, I remember that one of the tutorials, I believe, in the first printed Cocoon book, was creating a, so to speak, banking system. It was this profoundness of this ability of open source and the use of xml to be used in daily industry that made me come up with some ideas, inventions I might pompously call them. Can anyone speak to whether Cocoon is still used in the financial area? I am particularly interested in whether it's used in trading systems, etc. Thanks for any info. And thanks again, Daniel On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Daniel Smith opened...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all. First post here. I was looking at the amounts of posts to the cocoon users list, and I see a serious degradation in the amount of posts in recent years. Can anyone point me to why there seems to be a lack of interest in cocoon? Just wondering. I can remember when it was the happening thing... Thanks so much for any info. Daniel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
