RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Stop banging on about Linux, it's rubbish :-) -Original Message- From: Timothy Jones [mailto:timothy.jo...@syniverse.com] Sent: 15 May 2013 19:18 To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) It makes perfect sense: otherwise you end up dependent on one vendor for stuff that works. Case in point: Adobe didn't bother to make a 64-bit Linux build for many years... When they finally did, it didn't support the GPU-related stuff, it pegged the CPU at 100% and didn't support webcams, all of which worked well on Mac and PC. The reason was that Adobe didn't think the Linux market share was high enough to warrant their attention. That's NOT a good enough reason, especially when you consider that you can't measure Linux marketshare in the same way you measure Mac and Windows. If Flash Player had been open, plenty of folks would have gladly contributed code (time and effort) to make it work better, at little or no cost to Adobe. But we were forced to wait, and wait and wait. Open doesn't solve every problem, but it yields far better choices than single-company monocultures. Maybe I did misread your second point. I am not accustomed to thinking of Adobe as part of the HTML5 (or any other open) community. I just found this [1], and will reconsider after I read it. Profit is fine, and bills still have to be paid, but companies don't have to cut corners and be restrictive to do it. I'm glad we agree on the tremendous impact of the open-source community. I just wish Adobe had been a bigger part of it. tlj [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/html5.html -Original Message- From: mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov [mailto:mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 1:55 PM To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) @Timothy 'Standards-based is criteria #0 of the open internet. No matter how slick, non-standards-based technologies are not open, and __that_alone__ makes them inferior.' I'm sorry, but this argument makes no sense. If there is a more feature rich and capable technology that allows you to deliver better products on a wider number of platforms with less effort (and less support and maintenance headaches long-term), why would you not use that technology? To rule it out simply because it's not standards based or open is shortsighted. Open is not a magical panacea of developer goodness. 'It's odd to me how you question the profit-making motivations of the HTML5 community...' You misread my post. I WAS talking about Adobe. And I made sure to point out that seeking profit is not a bad thing. If I held Adobe stock, I would EXPECT it. I'm simply suggesting that to claim their efforts are to drive the web forward is a bit dubious. That might be a by-product of their efforts (even that's debatable), but it is not the driver in my opinion. And just to clarify - I think the open source community does incredible, and often thankless, work. Were it not for their efforts, we would not have many of the JavaScript libraries, frameworks, etc. that make working with web standards bearable. And obviously we would not have Flex any longer were it not for the open source community. I did not, nor would I ever, criticize the efforts going on in that arena. MLM From: Timothy Jones timothy.jo...@syniverse.com To: users@flex.apache.org users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/15/2013 11:31 AM Subject:RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Standards-based is criteria #0 of the open internet. No matter how slick, non-standards-based technologies are not open, and __that_alone__ makes them inferior. Open-sourcing Flex under Apache was a great move, and that's why I monitor this mailing list. I'm quite encouraged by the events here since Adobe's donation of Flex to Apache 18 months ago. But as long as Flex requires the proprietary Flash Player to run, the end-to-end result still falls short of this most basic requirement. Someday, Shumway or FalconJS will solve that! As a developer who prefers to work with Linux, the state of Flash Player on Linux has been quite disappointing over the years. By contrast, almost everything in the HTML5 world is driven by the W3C, Firefox and Chrome, and because those communities value all users, new features appear on Linux versions of those browsers at the same time as everywhere else. And this is the way it should be. It's odd to me how you question the profit-making motivations of the HTML5 community, when they are the ones donating their time on W3C committees, building open source HTML5 libraries, and giving it away, while not criticizing Adobe's profit-only decisions that do not strive to treat all users equally well. The drive the web forward initiative is quite real, and among open-source developers, it is a far more powerful incentive than profit ever could be. You
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
On 15/05/2013 19:17, Timothy Jones wrote: marketshare in the same way you measure Mac and Windows. If Flash Player had been open, plenty of folks would have gladly contributed code (time and effort) to make it work better, at little or no cost to Adobe. And those of use who *did* try to apply for early/wider access via the (now aborted ?) Open Screen program were ignored. Tom
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Thanks Alex. I appreciate your comments - with the 5 year commitment from Adobe, and FlexJS on the horizon, i can relax (a bit). I just worry about your employers sometimes. At Max 2011, the message was use HTML5 for RIAs, and shortly afterwards mobile Flash Player was dropped. At Max 2013, the message was use HTML5 for games - which made me wonder what bombshell Adobe may drop this time. -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter On 14/05/2013 20:29, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc. And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
I worry less about the message than I do the motivation behind the push towards HTML5. It still makes no sense to me from a developer's perspective, though I've tried very hard to understand it. Standards based or not, HTML5 is inferior technology when compared to what can be delivered with Flash and AIR (and the ease with which it can be done using development environments like Flex). Users don't know or care about the runtime environment in which their applications run, nor should they. This isn't really about users, though. It's not about the web. It's not about getting behind a standard. What it's about is creating demand for products that make the difficult task of developing in HTML/CSS/JavaScript a bit more palatable. And where there's demand, there's profit (theoretically, anyway). I don't believe for a minute that this is some noble drive the web forward initiative. That's only the veneer. The true goal, in my not so humble opinion, is what it always is and always will be: enhancing the bottom line. There's certainly nothing wrong with a company making moneyit's why they exist, after all. But to tout what is clearly a less suitable solution (for RIAs) as the next great frontier is, at best, disingenuous. These are my opinions...your mileage may vary. M. McConnell From: Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/15/2013 06:15 AM Subject:Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Thanks Alex. I appreciate your comments - with the 5 year commitment from Adobe, and FlexJS on the horizon, i can relax (a bit). I just worry about your employers sometimes. At Max 2011, the message was use HTML5 for RIAs, and shortly afterwards mobile Flash Player was dropped. At Max 2013, the message was use HTML5 for games - which made me wonder what bombshell Adobe may drop this time. -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter On 14/05/2013 20:29, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc. And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
I can understand that. I don't agree with it but I can understand it. What I fail to understand is why so little on AIR. I'm creating applications(not games but enterprise and consumer applications) on mobile and desktop using Flex and AIR and it is just wonderful to work with. There is no alternative that even comes close to achieving these types of results. Fréderic Cox On 15/05/13 16:22, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: I thought it was very telling that the word Flash was avoided during the Max keynote - it only got a single mention in passing as something like our aquisition of Macromedia. I predict zero Flash-based sessions next year. On 15/05/2013 14:10, mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov wrote: I worry less about the message than I do the motivation behind the push towards HTML5. It still makes no sense to me from a developer's perspective, though I've tried very hard to understand it. Standards based or not, HTML5 is inferior technology when compared to what can be delivered with Flash and AIR (and the ease with which it can be done using development environments like Flex). Users don't know or care about the runtime environment in which their applications run, nor should they. This isn't really about users, though. It's not about the web. It's not about getting behind a standard. What it's about is creating demand for products that make the difficult task of developing in HTML/CSS/JavaScript a bit more palatable. And where there's demand, there's profit (theoretically, anyway). I don't believe for a minute that this is some noble drive the web forward initiative. That's only the veneer. The true goal, in my not so humble opinion, is what it always is and always will be: enhancing the bottom line. There's certainly nothing wrong with a company making moneyit's why they exist, after all. But to tout what is clearly a less suitable solution (for RIAs) as the next great frontier is, at best, disingenuous. These are my opinions...your mileage may vary. M. McConnell From:Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date:05/15/2013 06:15 AM Subject: Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Thanks Alex. I appreciate your comments - with the 5 year commitment from Adobe, and FlexJS on the horizon, i can relax (a bit). I just worry about your employers sometimes. At Max 2011, the message was use HTML5 for RIAs, and shortly afterwards mobile Flash Player was dropped. At Max 2013, the message was use HTML5 for games - which made me wonder what bombshell Adobe may drop this time. -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter On 14/05/2013 20:29, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc. And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Hi, I totally agree with Mike. HTML 5 is a poor alternative. Anyway, if we must deliver HTML 5, why choose Flex ? It's better to choose true HTML 5 / js frameworks. HTML 5 with Flex will have too much limitations. Perhaps it would be better to have Java/C#/Objectice C outputs... Le 15/05/2013 13:10, mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov a écrit : I worry less about the message than I do the motivation behind the push towards HTML5. It still makes no sense to me from a developer's perspective, though I've tried very hard to understand it. Standards based or not, HTML5 is inferior technology when compared to what can be delivered with Flash and AIR (and the ease with which it can be done using development environments like Flex). Users don't know or care about the runtime environment in which their applications run, nor should they. This isn't really about users, though. It's not about the web. It's not about getting behind a standard. What it's about is creating demand for products that make the difficult task of developing in HTML/CSS/JavaScript a bit more palatable. And where there's demand, there's profit (theoretically, anyway). I don't believe for a minute that this is some noble drive the web forward initiative. That's only the veneer. The true goal, in my not so humble opinion, is what it always is and always will be: enhancing the bottom line. There's certainly nothing wrong with a company making moneyit's why they exist, after all. But to tout what is clearly a less suitable solution (for RIAs) as the next great frontier is, at best, disingenuous. These are my opinions...your mileage may vary. M. McConnell From: Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/15/2013 06:15 AM Subject:Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Thanks Alex. I appreciate your comments - with the 5 year commitment from Adobe, and FlexJS on the horizon, i can relax (a bit). I just worry about your employers sometimes. At Max 2011, the message was use HTML5 for RIAs, and shortly afterwards mobile Flash Player was dropped. At Max 2013, the message was use HTML5 for games - which made me wonder what bombshell Adobe may drop this time. -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter On 14/05/2013 20:29, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc. And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com
RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
We could choose something other than HTML5, but so far nobody has stepped up to execute on that. Personally, I think it is too much work for the community we have at this time. But if you want to get started, please do. Alex Harui Apache Flex Team http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui -Original Message- From: Claude Bernardini [mailto:cbernard...@ultima-com.net] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 7:33 AM To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Hi, I totally agree with Mike. HTML 5 is a poor alternative. Anyway, if we must deliver HTML 5, why choose Flex ? It's better to choose true HTML 5 / js frameworks. HTML 5 with Flex will have too much limitations. Perhaps it would be better to have Java/C#/Objectice C outputs... Le 15/05/2013 13:10, mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov a écrit : I worry less about the message than I do the motivation behind the push towards HTML5. It still makes no sense to me from a developer's perspective, though I've tried very hard to understand it. Standards based or not, HTML5 is inferior technology when compared to what can be delivered with Flash and AIR (and the ease with which it can be done using development environments like Flex). Users don't know or care about the runtime environment in which their applications run, nor should they. This isn't really about users, though. It's not about the web. It's not about getting behind a standard. What it's about is creating demand for products that make the difficult task of developing in HTML/CSS/JavaScript a bit more palatable. And where there's demand, there's profit (theoretically, anyway). I don't believe for a minute that this is some noble drive the web forward initiative. That's only the veneer. The true goal, in my not so humble opinion, is what it always is and always will be: enhancing the bottom line. There's certainly nothing wrong with a company making moneyit's why they exist, after all. But to tout what is clearly a less suitable solution (for RIAs) as the next great frontier is, at best, disingenuous. These are my opinions...your mileage may vary. M. McConnell From: Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/15/2013 06:15 AM Subject:Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Thanks Alex. I appreciate your comments - with the 5 year commitment from Adobe, and FlexJS on the horizon, i can relax (a bit). I just worry about your employers sometimes. At Max 2011, the message was use HTML5 for RIAs, and shortly afterwards mobile Flash Player was dropped. At Max 2013, the message was use HTML5 for games - which made me wonder what bombshell Adobe may drop this time. -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter On 14/05/2013 20:29, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc. And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Timothy Jones timothy.jo...@syniverse.comwrote: Standards-based is criteria #0 of the open internet. No matter how slick, non-standards-based technologies are not open, and __that_alone__ makes them inferior. Open-sourcing Flex under Apache was a great move, and that's why I monitor this mailing list. I'm quite encouraged by the events here since Adobe's donation of Flex to Apache 18 months ago. But as long as Flex requires the proprietary Flash Player to run, the end-to-end result still falls short of this most basic requirement. Someday, Shumway or FalconJS will solve that! As a developer who prefers to work with Linux, the state of Flash Player on Linux has been quite disappointing over the years. By contrast, almost everything in the HTML5 world is driven by the W3C, Firefox and Chrome, and because those communities value all users, new features appear on Linux versions of those browsers at the same time as everywhere else. And this is the way it should be. It's odd to me how you question the profit-making motivations of the HTML5 community, when they are the ones donating their time on W3C committees, building open source HTML5 libraries, and giving it away, while not criticizing Adobe's profit-only decisions that do not strive to treat all users equally well. The drive the web forward initiative is quite real, and among open-source developers, it is a far more powerful incentive than profit ever could be. You have *them* to thank for most of the things you enjoy on the internet today. Without forward-thinkers like them, we would still all be on CompuServe. There, my $0.02¢.. (now get off my lawn ... :-) ) I am sorry but the term standards has been misused and subverted by the big companies like Apple, Google, Microsoft, etc. so much so that it has lost its meaning. Where is the version of Javascript based on ECMAScript 4? (Adobe was the only company that actually implemented this 'standard') Why is StageWebView on iOS so much crippled? Why do we need to encode videos in multiple formats if we want to target 'HTML5'? Why do we have to use browser based CSS hacks to make sure that the content looks the same on all browsers? We are in still in this cross-browser mess because of the companies with big dollars strive to control features while at the same time appearing to be standards-friendly. And guess who has the loudest voices on these standards committees? Thats right, the browser manufacturers with big dollars. There are so many examples of big companies willfully sabotaging 'standards' for their own profit. And standard organizations let it happen because they are powerless in reality. All the power lies with the browser manufacturers. The reality with open standards and especially with HTML5 is that we have to first look at a compatibility chart like this [1] to use any feature. Some developers can chose to be masochistic and deal with it. Whereas others (like me) chose to target the Flash Player (till it dies, that is) and not worry about 'standards' aka cross-browser nightmares. /rant [1] http://caniuse.com/ tlj -Original Message- From: mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov [mailto: mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:11 AM To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) I worry less about the message than I do the motivation behind the push towards HTML5. It still makes no sense to me from a developer's perspective, though I've tried very hard to understand it. Standards based or not, HTML5 is inferior technology when compared to what can be delivered with Flash and AIR (and the ease with which it can be done using development environments like Flex). Users don't know or care about the runtime environment in which their applications run, nor should they. This isn't really about users, though. It's not about the web. It's not about getting behind a standard. What it's about is creating demand for products that make the difficult task of developing in HTML/CSS/JavaScript a bit more palatable. And where there's demand, there's profit (theoretically, anyway). I don't believe for a minute that this is some noble drive the web forward initiative. That's only the veneer. The true goal, in my not so humble opinion, is what it always is and always will be: enhancing the bottom line. There's certainly nothing wrong with a company making moneyit's why they exist, after all. But to tout what is clearly a less suitable solution (for RIAs) as the next great frontier is, at best, disingenuous. These are my opinions...your mileage may vary. M. McConnell From: Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/15/2013 06:15 AM Subject:Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Thanks Alex. I appreciate your comments - with the 5
RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
It makes perfect sense: otherwise you end up dependent on one vendor for stuff that works. Case in point: Adobe didn't bother to make a 64-bit Linux build for many years... When they finally did, it didn't support the GPU-related stuff, it pegged the CPU at 100% and didn't support webcams, all of which worked well on Mac and PC. The reason was that Adobe didn't think the Linux market share was high enough to warrant their attention. That's NOT a good enough reason, especially when you consider that you can't measure Linux marketshare in the same way you measure Mac and Windows. If Flash Player had been open, plenty of folks would have gladly contributed code (time and effort) to make it work better, at little or no cost to Adobe. But we were forced to wait, and wait and wait. Open doesn't solve every problem, but it yields far better choices than single-company monocultures. Maybe I did misread your second point. I am not accustomed to thinking of Adobe as part of the HTML5 (or any other open) community. I just found this [1], and will reconsider after I read it. Profit is fine, and bills still have to be paid, but companies don't have to cut corners and be restrictive to do it. I'm glad we agree on the tremendous impact of the open-source community. I just wish Adobe had been a bigger part of it. tlj [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/html5.html -Original Message- From: mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov [mailto:mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 1:55 PM To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) @Timothy 'Standards-based is criteria #0 of the open internet. No matter how slick, non-standards-based technologies are not open, and __that_alone__ makes them inferior.' I'm sorry, but this argument makes no sense. If there is a more feature rich and capable technology that allows you to deliver better products on a wider number of platforms with less effort (and less support and maintenance headaches long-term), why would you not use that technology? To rule it out simply because it's not standards based or open is shortsighted. Open is not a magical panacea of developer goodness. 'It's odd to me how you question the profit-making motivations of the HTML5 community...' You misread my post. I WAS talking about Adobe. And I made sure to point out that seeking profit is not a bad thing. If I held Adobe stock, I would EXPECT it. I'm simply suggesting that to claim their efforts are to drive the web forward is a bit dubious. That might be a by-product of their efforts (even that's debatable), but it is not the driver in my opinion. And just to clarify - I think the open source community does incredible, and often thankless, work. Were it not for their efforts, we would not have many of the JavaScript libraries, frameworks, etc. that make working with web standards bearable. And obviously we would not have Flex any longer were it not for the open source community. I did not, nor would I ever, criticize the efforts going on in that arena. MLM From: Timothy Jones timothy.jo...@syniverse.com To: users@flex.apache.org users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/15/2013 11:31 AM Subject:RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Standards-based is criteria #0 of the open internet. No matter how slick, non-standards-based technologies are not open, and __that_alone__ makes them inferior. Open-sourcing Flex under Apache was a great move, and that's why I monitor this mailing list. I'm quite encouraged by the events here since Adobe's donation of Flex to Apache 18 months ago. But as long as Flex requires the proprietary Flash Player to run, the end-to-end result still falls short of this most basic requirement. Someday, Shumway or FalconJS will solve that! As a developer who prefers to work with Linux, the state of Flash Player on Linux has been quite disappointing over the years. By contrast, almost everything in the HTML5 world is driven by the W3C, Firefox and Chrome, and because those communities value all users, new features appear on Linux versions of those browsers at the same time as everywhere else. And this is the way it should be. It's odd to me how you question the profit-making motivations of the HTML5 community, when they are the ones donating their time on W3C committees, building open source HTML5 libraries, and giving it away, while not criticizing Adobe's profit-only decisions that do not strive to treat all users equally well. The drive the web forward initiative is quite real, and among open-source developers, it is a far more powerful incentive than profit ever could be. You have *them* to thank for most of the things you enjoy on the internet today. Without forward-thinkers like them, we would still all be on CompuServe. There, my $0.02¢.. (now get off my lawn ... :-) ) tlj -Original Message
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
On 5/15/2013 2:17 PM, Timothy Jones wrote: It makes perfect sense: otherwise you end up dependent on one vendor for stuff that works. Is that not the case with web development today? Browsers are horribly inconsistent; and frameworks such as JQuery spent countless hours making sure the framework is cross-browser compatible. -- Jeffry Houser Technical Entrepreneur 203-379-0773 -- http://www.flextras.com?c=104 UI Flex Components: Tested! Supported! Ready! -- http://www.theflexshow.com http://www.jeffryhouser.com http://www.asktheflexpert.com -- Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust
RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Adobe made a strategic decision...one that seriously pissed off lots of people including myself. They were going to back to what makes them money...creating tools for designers. Flex was never a money maker...if they could go back and adopt the ExtJs model, things might be different (but that is speculation at best...we can't go back). Plus, it is hard to push yourself as the tool creator for HTML5 and 'standards' plus push Flash. This is not true for us on this list and Flash Pro users, but for the standard folks it is very true. They hate Flash and everything associated with it. Never mind their hate is misplaced... it is just a fact. What might really hurt Adobe is their decisions surrounding CC and no more perpetual licenses of their tools. It will be interesting to see if this adversely affects their bottom line and if so, whether or not they will reverse course. Mark -Original Message- From: mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov [mailto:mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:11 AM To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) I worry less about the message than I do the motivation behind the push towards HTML5. It still makes no sense to me from a developer's perspective, though I've tried very hard to understand it. Standards based or not, HTML5 is inferior technology when compared to what can be delivered with Flash and AIR (and the ease with which it can be done using development environments like Flex). Users don't know or care about the runtime environment in which their applications run, nor should they. This isn't really about users, though. It's not about the web. It's not about getting behind a standard. What it's about is creating demand for products that make the difficult task of developing in HTML/CSS/JavaScript a bit more palatable. And where there's demand, there's profit (theoretically, anyway). I don't believe for a minute that this is some noble drive the web forward initiative. That's only the veneer. The true goal, in my not so humble opinion, is what it always is and always will be: enhancing the bottom line. There's certainly nothing wrong with a company making moneyit's why they exist, after all. But to tout what is clearly a less suitable solution (for RIAs) as the next great frontier is, at best, disingenuous. These are my opinions...your mileage may vary. M. McConnell From: Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/15/2013 06:15 AM Subject:Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Thanks Alex. I appreciate your comments - with the 5 year commitment from Adobe, and FlexJS on the horizon, i can relax (a bit). I just worry about your employers sometimes. At Max 2011, the message was use HTML5 for RIAs, and shortly afterwards mobile Flash Player was dropped. At Max 2013, the message was use HTML5 for games - which made me wonder what bombshell Adobe may drop this time. -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter On 14/05/2013 20:29, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc. And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Going to add my 2cents to this. I m one the guy behind Emitrom. I created a Java API for the Flash platform called Flash4j( http://emitrom.com/flex4j). Which allows Java Devs to write Flash apps in Java. Despite all the Flash is dead talk our experience has been the totally opposite. Flash4j is by faar the most successfull products we have. We havent seen any drop in demand. Actually the demand is soo high that we are looking to add people. Flash still does certain things better and efficiently than JavaScript (for example clientside file generation) and this wont change anytime soon. And off course certain things can be done with pure JS that was only available to Flash. The question is how long does it take to get the same result. The problem we always had with Flash/Flex applications is that for something that runs in the browser the interoperability with JavaScript is pretty poor (ActionScript beeing the other problem but that s another story). To us it s not a Flash vs HTML5 talk. But how to leverage BOTH to create an unique experience for our customers. One of the things we are currently working on for example is how to seamlessly integrate the Google Maps JS API in a Flex app. This post actually summarizes the situation pretty good http://thonbo.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/where-is-adobe-going-with-flash-after-max-conclusions/ Cheers 2013/5/16 Mark Fuqua m...@availdata.com Adobe made a strategic decision...one that seriously pissed off lots of people including myself. They were going to back to what makes them money...creating tools for designers. Flex was never a money maker...if they could go back and adopt the ExtJs model, things might be different (but that is speculation at best...we can't go back). Plus, it is hard to push yourself as the tool creator for HTML5 and 'standards' plus push Flash. This is not true for us on this list and Flash Pro users, but for the standard folks it is very true. They hate Flash and everything associated with it. Never mind their hate is misplaced... it is just a fact. What might really hurt Adobe is their decisions surrounding CC and no more perpetual licenses of their tools. It will be interesting to see if this adversely affects their bottom line and if so, whether or not they will reverse course. Mark -Original Message- From: mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov [mailto:mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:11 AM To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) I worry less about the message than I do the motivation behind the push towards HTML5. It still makes no sense to me from a developer's perspective, though I've tried very hard to understand it. Standards based or not, HTML5 is inferior technology when compared to what can be delivered with Flash and AIR (and the ease with which it can be done using development environments like Flex). Users don't know or care about the runtime environment in which their applications run, nor should they. This isn't really about users, though. It's not about the web. It's not about getting behind a standard. What it's about is creating demand for products that make the difficult task of developing in HTML/CSS/JavaScript a bit more palatable. And where there's demand, there's profit (theoretically, anyway). I don't believe for a minute that this is some noble drive the web forward initiative. That's only the veneer. The true goal, in my not so humble opinion, is what it always is and always will be: enhancing the bottom line. There's certainly nothing wrong with a company making moneyit's why they exist, after all. But to tout what is clearly a less suitable solution (for RIAs) as the next great frontier is, at best, disingenuous. These are my opinions...your mileage may vary. M. McConnell From: Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/15/2013 06:15 AM Subject:Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Thanks Alex. I appreciate your comments - with the 5 year commitment from Adobe, and FlexJS on the horizon, i can relax (a bit). I just worry about your employers sometimes. At Max 2011, the message was use HTML5 for RIAs, and shortly afterwards mobile Flash Player was dropped. At Max 2013, the message was use HTML5 for games - which made me wonder what bombshell Adobe may drop this time. -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter On 14/05/2013 20:29, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
From your blog post link: Adobe’s foresight is that *games on mobile/tablets will eventually move away from the appstore and into the mobile browser…* * * *clearly, this must be the way forward or as developers, we will remain beholden to the whims of the device makers and their OS standards. This is already true of app development and the Apple Down methodology employed by most app dev firms. The more we can wrestle the control away from OS based app development towards mobile browser standards ( i say that tongue firmly planted in cheek), the better chance we have to leverage the continued development of Flex, HTML5 and other solutions towards this end. While browser-based solutions may not monetize as well for developers, the road to hell is paved with $1.99 apps that don't sell. * * * *yet not so sure we get a say in it folks. I am old enough to remember the BETA vs. VHS wars, and the best technology didn't win that one either.* * * *Scott B. Barnett WoodmontInnervisions* *twitter: @Scott_Brian_B* On Wed, May 15, 2013 at 7:24 PM, Alain Ekambi jazzmatad...@gmail.comwrote: Going to add my 2cents to this. I m one the guy behind Emitrom. I created a Java API for the Flash platform called Flash4j( http://emitrom.com/flex4j). Which allows Java Devs to write Flash apps in Java. Despite all the Flash is dead talk our experience has been the totally opposite. Flash4j is by faar the most successfull products we have. We havent seen any drop in demand. Actually the demand is soo high that we are looking to add people. Flash still does certain things better and efficiently than JavaScript (for example clientside file generation) and this wont change anytime soon. And off course certain things can be done with pure JS that was only available to Flash. The question is how long does it take to get the same result. The problem we always had with Flash/Flex applications is that for something that runs in the browser the interoperability with JavaScript is pretty poor (ActionScript beeing the other problem but that s another story). To us it s not a Flash vs HTML5 talk. But how to leverage BOTH to create an unique experience for our customers. One of the things we are currently working on for example is how to seamlessly integrate the Google Maps JS API in a Flex app. This post actually summarizes the situation pretty good http://thonbo.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/where-is-adobe-going-with-flash-after-max-conclusions/ Cheers 2013/5/16 Mark Fuqua m...@availdata.com Adobe made a strategic decision...one that seriously pissed off lots of people including myself. They were going to back to what makes them money...creating tools for designers. Flex was never a money maker...if they could go back and adopt the ExtJs model, things might be different (but that is speculation at best...we can't go back). Plus, it is hard to push yourself as the tool creator for HTML5 and 'standards' plus push Flash. This is not true for us on this list and Flash Pro users, but for the standard folks it is very true. They hate Flash and everything associated with it. Never mind their hate is misplaced... it is just a fact. What might really hurt Adobe is their decisions surrounding CC and no more perpetual licenses of their tools. It will be interesting to see if this adversely affects their bottom line and if so, whether or not they will reverse course. Mark -Original Message- From: mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov [mailto:mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov] Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 9:11 AM To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) I worry less about the message than I do the motivation behind the push towards HTML5. It still makes no sense to me from a developer's perspective, though I've tried very hard to understand it. Standards based or not, HTML5 is inferior technology when compared to what can be delivered with Flash and AIR (and the ease with which it can be done using development environments like Flex). Users don't know or care about the runtime environment in which their applications run, nor should they. This isn't really about users, though. It's not about the web. It's not about getting behind a standard. What it's about is creating demand for products that make the difficult task of developing in HTML/CSS/JavaScript a bit more palatable. And where there's demand, there's profit (theoretically, anyway). I don't believe for a minute that this is some noble drive the web forward initiative. That's only the veneer. The true goal, in my not so humble opinion, is what it always is and always will be: enhancing the bottom line. There's certainly nothing wrong with a company making moneyit's why they exist, after all. But to tout what is clearly a less suitable solution (for RIAs) as the next great frontier
future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
That is my recollection as well. We are about 16 months into that by now. I can't believe Flash Player will suddenly drop off the face of the planet, though. Something will replace it or it will simply continue on as it does today. M. McConnell From: Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/14/2013 01:13 PM Subject:future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter
RE: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Flash Player will be around at least as long as IE6 was. (duck!) tlj -Original Message- From: mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov [mailto:mike_l_mcconn...@lamd.uscourts.gov] Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 2:25 PM To: users@flex.apache.org Subject: Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) That is my recollection as well. We are about 16 months into that by now. I can't believe Flash Player will suddenly drop off the face of the planet, though. Something will replace it or it will simply continue on as it does today. M. McConnell From: Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com To: users@flex.apache.org Date: 05/14/2013 01:13 PM Subject:future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again) Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com -- Lee Burrows ActionScripter
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc. And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com -- Alex Harui Flex SDK Team Adobe Systems, Inc. http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Hi Alex, -- Music to my ears! Sent from my iPad On 2013-05-14, at 15:29, Alex Harui aha...@adobe.com wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc. And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com -- Alex Harui Flex SDK Team Adobe Systems, Inc. http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
Hi Alex, Below highlighted words produced excitement into me. Is there any location where I can find the draft or roadmap or anything like that for this new feature. Thanks, Vikram Shityalkar Raykor http://www.raykor.com || Take look at inEdit http://www.ineditdemo.com:8080 On 15/05/2013 12:59 AM, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc.And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com
Re: future of flash (yes, that old chestnut again)
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/FLEX/Alex%27s+FlexJS+Prototype On 5/14/13 9:40 PM, Vikram Shityalkar vik...@raykor.com wrote: Hi Alex, Below highlighted words produced excitement into me. Is there any location where I can find the draft or roadmap or anything like that for this new feature. Thanks, Vikram Shityalkar Raykor http://www.raykor.com || Take look at inEdit http://www.ineditdemo.com:8080 On 15/05/2013 12:59 AM, Alex Harui wrote: The relevant documents are: [1] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplatform/whitepapers/roadmap.html [2] http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flex/whitepapers/roadmap.html It is [2] that mentions five years. But realize that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no code that will cause Flash to stop working after some day about 4 years from now. To do so would break the web and neither Adobe nor the major desktop/laptop OS vendors are interested in doing that. It is just that Adobe is not committing to new versions or taking support calls after that date. Also, IMO, if something happens that gives Adobe a reason to extend that date, they probably would, but I don't really know what that would be. Meanwhile, Apache Flex is doing the best it can to make sure that Flex has fewer bugs, supports more locales, etc.And some of us are even looking into a next generation of Flex that will let you use MXML and ActionScript to create apps that run in a browser or on mobile devices without Flash/AIR so you don't have be quite so concerned about this five year commitment. On 5/14/13 11:12 AM, Lee Burrows subscripti...@leeburrows.com wrote: Hi All, I seem to remember that Adobe committed to supporting Flash Player and AIR for 5 years - during, or shortly after, the Flex Community Summit (of Dec 11). Is that right, or did i imagine it? - i cant find any reference to it on adobe.com -- Alex Harui Flex SDK Team Adobe Systems, Inc. http://blogs.adobe.com/aharui
