Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
If LO Base is not enough for you because you need more application logic, then there are two VFP developers who have implemented their own successor to VFP. Cross-platform, open-source, free. It's called Dabo (www.dabodev.com) and it uses Python as the programming language. If you've ever learned any programming language, learning Python will be a no-brainer. There are a couple of other database application development frameworks for Python (even LO Base can be scripted with Python, although that's one of the best kept secrets of LO), but Dabo has been specifically made by (ex-)VFP developers for (ex-)VFP developers. Didn't know about this one yet! Thanks for the info. I''l take a look at it. Sometime ago I had some success with Glom (www.glom.org). Maybe it meets the needs of the other posters. The others I know of would be: using wxPython: Dabohttp://www.dabodev.com (already mentioned) Defis http://sourceforge.net/projects/defis/ (Russian only) GNUehttp://www.gnuenterprise.org/ using PyQt: Pypapi http://www.pypapi.org Camelot http://www.python-camelot.com/ Qtalchemy http://www.qtalchemy.org/ Thyme http://clocksoft.co.uk/downloads/ Kexihttp://www.kexi-project.org/ using PyGTK: SQLkit http://sqlkit.argolinux.org/ Kiwihttp://www.async.com.br/projects/kiwi/ Glomhttp://www.glom.org Openoffice Base http://www.openoffice.org/product/base.html Libreoffice Base http://www.libreoffice.org/features/base/ OpenERP http://www.openerp.org Tryton http://www.tryton.org Dabo (they're about to release 1.0 for Pycon), Pypapi, Camelot, SQLkit seem to be the most actively developed and best documented ones. OpenERP and Tryton are ERP systems that can also be used as frameworks for non-ERP custom applications. Apparently defunct: Pythoncard http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/ Boa Constructor http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/ Knoda http://www.knoda.org/ Rekall ? Gemello http://abu.sourceforge.net/ Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
May I suggest you to contact Kexi main developer, Jarosław Staniek, with this proposal? You will find his e-mail address here: I'm subscribed to the Kexi mailinglist, and the subject has been regularly invoked by various users there. Without composite keys you can't even implement M:N relationships in a way that warrants data integrity. From what I see on KDE forums, he seems to be rather responsive and friendly about users propositions. Yes, definitely. This project would merit a bit help. It might be (might!) that no one has proposed this feature and if somebody step in, it will be implemented in near future. I would guess the main issue is that Kexi has to re-implement a lot of functionality and the developers are not that numerous. I even wonder whether the plural is justified here. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
Dan, As I said in my response above, the distinction that LO is making is database engine call or manipulate file directly. If it manipulates files directly it does it with simple, slightly extended, text manipulation. LO has no database functionality itself, for such functions it can only make calls to a database engine (ie another program) when it has anything other than simple single file manipulation to do. DBase (for example) has no engine that LO can call to. Flat file databases are those where there is no ability to relate different tables. In that respect, outside its correct environment, I suppose you could say that dBase files are flat, but that is because of the lack of correct environment rather than any shortcoming in the files themselves. That, I think, points to flat file being a misleading term, not only because it's not just to do with the file, but also because, at least in the beginning, many databases didn't store their data in operating-system-recognisable files. So, my suggestion is to remove the term flat file and instead refer to calls to a relational database system engine or direct file manipulation. Regards Mark Stanton -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
I don't know if it will be suitable, but you can try Kexi (part of Calligra suite, I believe; but you can install it separately). I heard it is much better than LO Base, but I don't know enough to verify that statement. Kexi will become usable as soon as it supports composite (natural) keys. It's a pity that Knoda, Rekall etc. have vanished or died without anyone picking up the code behind the original developers, so that Kexi is now the n-th re-implementation of the same functionality. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
I am still waiting for a database program that will allow me to create applications (not pieces of applications, like queries and forms) without having to learn C (this old dog is not going to learn that new trick!). If LO Base is not enough for you because you need more application logic, then there are two VFP developers who have implemented their own successor to VFP. Cross-platform, open-source, free. It's called Dabo (www.dabodev.com) and it uses Python as the programming language. If you've ever learned any programming language, learning Python will be a no-brainer. There are a couple of other database application development frameworks for Python (even LO Base can be scripted with Python, although that's one of the best kept secrets of LO), but Dabo has been specifically made by (ex-)VFP developers for (ex-)VFP developers. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 2013-03-05 20:12, Wolfgang Keller wrote: I am still waiting for a database program that will allow me to create applications (not pieces of applications, like queries and forms) without having to learn C (this old dog is not going to learn that new trick!). If LO Base is not enough for you because you need more application logic, then there are two VFP developers who have implemented their own successor to VFP. Cross-platform, open-source, free. It's called Dabo (www.dabodev.com) and it uses Python as the programming language. If you've ever learned any programming language, learning Python will be a no-brainer. There are a couple of other database application development frameworks for Python (even LO Base can be scripted with Python, although that's one of the best kept secrets of LO), but Dabo has been specifically made by (ex-)VFP developers for (ex-)VFP developers. Didn't know about this one yet! Thanks for the info. I''l take a look at it. Sometime ago I had some success with Glom (www.glom.org). Maybe it meets the needs of the other posters. Grx HdV -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 2013-03-06 08:13, Wolfgang Keller wrote: I don't know if it will be suitable, but you can try Kexi (part of Calligra suite, I believe; but you can install it separately). I heard it is much better than LO Base, but I don't know enough to verify that statement. Kexi will become usable as soon as it supports composite (natural) keys. It's a pity that Knoda, Rekall etc. have vanished or died without anyone picking up the code behind the original developers, so that Kexi is now the n-th re-implementation of the same functionality. Sincerely, Wolfgang And if you want a commercial product there is Dataflex (http://www.dataaccess.com/products.asp?pageid=712). Our accounting system is written in this. Steve -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 03/03/2013 10:09 AM, John R. Sowden wrote: Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat file database, not a relational database. The below definitions from the Base Intro documentation demonstrate what I am saying: *Flat databases* A flat database contains one or more tables, each containing one or more fields. Each table is completely independent of all the other tables in the database. For example, I have an address database with seven tables in it. One has my family's contacts, another has my business contacts, and another has my wife's family contacts. While some contacts are contained in more than one table, different tables may not have the same information about the same person. dBase is a flat database program. LibreOffice and several database programs can also create flat databases. *Relational databases* Relational databases contain one or more tables with one or more relationships; each relaltionship is defined by a pair of fields. One field of each pair belongs to one table and the second field belongs to the same or a different table. Where relationships exist between fields in the same or different tables, a flat database could still be used, but it provides no mechanism for defining the relationship. Instead the same data must be entered in both fields, making data entry errors more likely. A well designed relational database requires the data to be entered only once, reducing possible errors. dbase is a relational database per the above definition. I link 2 tables with 1 field so I can refer to data in the second database so data does not have to bbe entered multiple times. In our alarm monitoring station, when a police dept. changes its phone number, we change 1 field in 1 database. Hundreds of subscriber records refer to that field to populate the data screen. It seems that LO ptb either have a problem with dbase/xbase, or they are (were) uninformed of the facts. John Sowden (been programming in dBase II (under cp/m), Foxbase, Foxpro (under DOS) since 1981) The beginning of this thread was: Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat file database, not a relational database. As the author of the definitions that John quoted at the top, I am part of the powers that be in LO when it comes to these definition . Early in this thread I asked for suggestions as to what the quoted definitions should be. Sorry folks, but I do not see any suggestions that is good enough to replace what has already been written. What I have written may not be as good as it should be. Neither has anyone produced anything to replace what I have written. When someone suggests much better definitions, they will be replaced. I'm still don't understand what the structure of dBase2 is. How can you use two or more tables in a query for example using this database engine? And for those who have begun discussion what database engines might be better of a person's use, please create a new thread so others searching the archives can more quickly find the comments about different databases. They are not likely to think that this thread would contain this information. --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
Wolfgang Keller wrote: I don't know if it will be suitable, but you can try Kexi (part of Calligra suite, I believe; but you can install it separately). I heard it is much better than LO Base, but I don't know enough to verify that statement. Kexi will become usable as soon as it supports composite (natural) keys. It's a pity that Knoda, Rekall etc. have vanished or died without anyone picking up the code behind the original developers, so that Kexi is now the n-th re-implementation of the same functionality. Sincerely, Wolfgang Alas, Rekall is no more. I used the Open Source version before switching to Base and was quite pleased with it, less a few annoying bugs. The Rekall report builder could run rings around the Base Report Builder- especially in speed - but it was quirky to design with it. Before it went dormant, the Open Source Rekall developer made some announcement about moving to another organization (not The Kompany) to continue development of his new ideas. For a few years after that, The Kompany still had the stagnant version of Rekall available for sale from their website. Now today, I see The Kompany is no longer on the net. Girvin Herr -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 05/03/2013 at 20:13, Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: Kexi will become usable as soon as it supports composite (natural) keys. May I suggest you to contact Kexi main developer, Jarosław Staniek, with this proposal? You will find his e-mail address here: http://kexi-project.org/contact.html From what I see on KDE forums, he seems to be rather responsive and friendly about users propositions. It might be (might!) that no one has proposed this feature and if somebody step in, it will be implemented in near future. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
Dan Lewis wrote: snip I'm still don't understand what the structure of dBase2 is. How can you use two or more tables in a query for example using this database engine? Some light reading required? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBase File formats: dbase II: http://www.fileformat.info/format/dbf/corion-dbase-ii.htm http://www.clicketyclick.dk/databases/xbase/format/ dbase III: http://www.fileformat.info/format/corion-dbase-iii.htm It has been my experience, and that is from the 90s, so maybe others on this forum with later experience or knowledge can confirm or deny that, that dbase2 or 3 does not use SQL. The wikipedia url above confirms that. dbase does everything with a command file (.CMD) using a dbase Programming Language. Base does not attempt to use the CMD files. It only imports the dbase data from the DBF files. Even so, it has been my experience that trying to import dbase III+ (c. 1990) DBF files into Base does not work. They are too old and Base does not go back that far in DBF file formats. Hope this helps. Girvin Herr -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 03/03/2013 at 19:47, John R. Sowden jsow...@americansentry.net wrote: I am still waiting for a database program that will allow me to create applications (not pieces of applications, like queries and forms) without having to learn C (this old dog is not going to learn that new trick!). I don't know if it will be suitable, but you can try Kexi (part of Calligra suite, I believe; but you can install it separately). I heard it is much better than LO Base, but I don't know enough to verify that statement. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
Thank God Linux came arround when it did... I am still waiting for a database program that will allow me to create applications I feel your pain. I was a professional VFP developer and have now moved to Linux and have the same problem. However, I am wondering if the one solid lump approach is the only way to go or if a collection of pieces will do the job as well (or better?) The pieces in Base are actually (potentially) pretty good). I'm hoping to get some time to develop this idea in the not-too-distant future. C, or its derivatives, would be a very poor database application environment imnvho. Mark Stanton One small step for mankind... -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
Hi :) I thought Queries were in Sql but Base mostly allows you to build them up in a gui rather than having to learn the Sql that it gets translated into? I learned a little Sql but not enough to be useful so i prefer using the pointclick type gui. Also Base is a bit different form MS's version in that forms are best done in Writer and that makes it easier to format forms decently without having to learn a complicated and different gui. Access's forms seemed to switch the Alt and Ctrl keys around for thing like selecting fields and stuff. Quite possibly i have completely missed the point. I got confused by that 1st sentence. Is there soem attempt to reinvent the wheel rather than use Qt libraries (or whatever) for pop-up boxes and stuff? Regards from Tom :) From: Mirosław Zalewski mini...@poczta.onet.pl To: users@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Monday, 4 March 2013, 8:35 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database On 03/03/2013 at 19:47, John R. Sowden jsow...@americansentry.net wrote: I am still waiting for a database program that will allow me to create applications (not pieces of applications, like queries and forms) without having to learn C (this old dog is not going to learn that new trick!). I don't know if it will be suitable, but you can try Kexi (part of Calligra suite, I believe; but you can install it separately). I heard it is much better than LO Base, but I don't know enough to verify that statement. -- Best regards Mirosław Zalewski -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat file database, not a relational database. The below definitions from the Base Intro documentation demonstrate what I am saying: *Flat databases* A flat database contains one or more tables, each containing one or more fields. Each table is completely independent of all the other tables in the database. For example, I have an address database with seven tables in it. One has my family's contacts, another has my business contacts, and another has my wife's family contacts. While some contacts are contained in more than one table, different tables may not have the same information about the same person. dBase is a flat database program. LibreOffice and several database programs can also create flat databases. *Relational databases* Relational databases contain one or more tables with one or more relationships; each relaltionship is defined by a pair of fields. One field of each pair belongs to one table and the second field belongs to the same or a different table. Where relationships exist between fields in the same or different tables, a flat database could still be used, but it provides no mechanism for defining the relationship. Instead the same data must be entered in both fields, making data entry errors more likely. A well designed relational database requires the data to be entered only once, reducing possible errors. dbase is a relational database per the above definition. I link 2 tables with 1 field so I can refer to data in the second database so data does not have to bbe entered multiple times. In our alarm monitoring station, when a police dept. changes its phone number, we change 1 field in 1 database. Hundreds of subscriber records refer to that field to populate the data screen. It seems that LO ptb either have a problem with dbase/xbase, or they are (were) uninformed of the facts. John Sowden (been programming in dBase II (under cp/m), Foxbase, Foxpro (under DOS) since 1981) -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 03/03/2013 10:09 AM, John R. Sowden wrote: Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat file database, not a relational database. The below definitions from the Base Intro documentation demonstrate what I am saying: *Flat databases* A flat database contains one or more tables, each containing one or more fields. Each table is completely independent of all the other tables in the database. For example, I have an address database with seven tables in it. One has my family's contacts, another has my business contacts, and another has my wife's family contacts. While some contacts are contained in more than one table, different tables may not have the same information about the same person. dBase is a flat database program. LibreOffice and several database programs can also create flat databases. *Relational databases* Relational databases contain one or more tables with one or more relationships; each relaltionship is defined by a pair of fields. One field of each pair belongs to one table and the second field belongs to the same or a different table. Where relationships exist between fields in the same or different tables, a flat database could still be used, but it provides no mechanism for defining the relationship. Instead the same data must be entered in both fields, making data entry errors more likely. A well designed relational database requires the data to be entered only once, reducing possible errors. dbase is a relational database per the above definition. I link 2 tables with 1 field so I can refer to data in the second database so data does not have to bbe entered multiple times. In our alarm monitoring station, when a police dept. changes its phone number, we change 1 field in 1 database. Hundreds of subscriber records refer to that field to populate the data screen. It seems that LO ptb either have a problem with dbase/xbase, or they are (were) uninformed of the facts. John Sowden (been programming in dBase II (under cp/m), Foxbase, Foxpro (under DOS) since 1981) Good, someone who can provide some information! How far back has dBase been able to create and use relational databases? I ask because until OOo 1.1.15, Base created databases in dBase format. With the switch to using HSQLDB and embedded databases, Base could work with relational databases. Base could also work with dBase but only as a flat database. So, how would you suggest this section you quote be written to make it accurate? What are some good examples of flat databases? --Dan -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
Hi John, John R. Sowden schrieb: Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat file database, not a relational database. The below definitions from the Base Intro documentation demonstrate what I am saying: Do you have a direct link? *Flat databases* A flat database contains one or more tables, each containing one or more fields. Each table is completely independent of all the other tables in the database. For example, I have an address database with seven tables in it. One has my family's contacts, another has my business contacts, and another has my wife's family contacts. While some contacts are contained in more than one table, different tables may not have the same information about the same person. dBase is a flat database program. LibreOffice and several database programs can also create flat databases. *Relational databases* Relational databases contain one or more tables with one or more relationships; each relaltionship is defined by a pair of fields. One field of each pair belongs to one table and the second field belongs to the same or a different table. Where relationships exist between fields in the same or different tables, a flat database could still be used, but it provides no mechanism for defining the relationship. Instead the same data must be entered in both fields, making data entry errors more likely. A well designed relational database requires the data to be entered only once, reducing possible errors. I think, it is a wrong definition of the term 'relational database'. The word 'relation' in 'relational database' means the mathematical definition of 'relation', which is connected to 'tupel', a organization of data in rows and columns. It is not about a 'relationship'. Another database model is a hierarchical model for example, which is tree-like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_database. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_model http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datenbankmodell It seems, that 'Flat database' is used for a database with one single table. But such a database would still be a relational database. My German text book does not have any term which would correspond to 'Flat database'. And the German Wikipedia article has no database model 'Flat database'. dbase is a relational database per the above definition. I link 2 tables with 1 field so I can refer to data in the second database so data does not have to bbe entered multiple times. In our alarm monitoring station, when a police dept. changes its phone number, we change 1 field in 1 database. Hundreds of subscriber records refer to that field to populate the data screen. It seems that LO ptb either have a problem with dbase/xbase, or they are (were) uninformed of the facts. dBase is a relational database application because the data is organized in tables. I think, there is no need to introduce the term 'flat database' at all. The distinction is in the management system. For files in dBase-format and for spreadsheets, LibreOffice itself is the database management system. For all other database connections, it uses an external database management system. Kind regards Regina -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
I think the (incorrect) definition that is being used is whether LO manipulates files directly or talks to a database engine. I don't think there is a dBase or FoxBase engine. I'm pretty sure there is a Visual FoxPro engine (John doesn't mention VFP, whyzatt then? ;) ), however it'll be a Windoze only thing I expect. So, to answer the original question, LO is calling dBase files flat because it can't access a database engine for them and it won't do any engine work itself. A flat database? Errr, can't think of one, although I know there have been such things. You only had to ask ;) Regards Mark Stanton -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 03/03/2013 07:27 AM, Dan Lewis wrote:
On 03/03/2013 10:09 AM, John R. Sowden wrote:
Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat
file database, not a relational database. The below definitions from
the Base Intro documentation demonstrate what I am saying:
*Flat databases*
A flat database contains one or more tables, each containing one or
more fields. Each table is completely independent of all the other
tables in the database. For example, I have an address database with
seven tables in it. One has my family's contacts, another has my
business contacts, and another has my wife's family contacts. While
some contacts are contained in more than one table, different tables
may not have the same information about the same person.
dBase is a flat database program. LibreOffice and several database
programs can also create flat databases.
*Relational databases*
Relational databases contain one or more tables with one or more
relationships; each relaltionship is defined by a pair of fields. One
field of each pair belongs to one table and the second field belongs
to the same or a different table. Where relationships exist between
fields in the same or different tables, a flat database could still
be used, but it provides no mechanism for defining the relationship.
Instead the same data must be entered in both fields, making data
entry errors more likely. A well designed relational database
requires the data to be entered only once, reducing possible errors.
dbase is a relational database per the above definition. I link 2
tables with 1 field so I can refer to data in the second database so
data does not have to bbe entered multiple times. In our alarm
monitoring station, when a police dept. changes its phone number, we
change 1 field in 1 database. Hundreds of subscriber records refer
to that field to populate the data screen. It seems that LO ptb
either have a problem with dbase/xbase, or they are (were) uninformed
of the facts.
John Sowden
(been programming in dBase II (under cp/m), Foxbase, Foxpro (under
DOS) since 1981)
Good, someone who can provide some information! How far back has
dBase been able to create and use relational databases? I ask because
until OOo 1.1.15, Base created databases in dBase format. With the
switch to using HSQLDB and embedded databases, Base could work with
relational databases. Base could also work with dBase but only as a
flat database.
So, how would you suggest this section you quote be written to
make it accurate? What are some good examples of flat databases?
--Dan
dBase II (there was never a dbase I. The closest was Vulcan which was
written with our tax dollars at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory.) was
originally a relational database. The original 3 ring binder manual
said Assembly Language Relational Database on the cover. It only
supported 2 open databases (now called tables). dBase calls its
elements fields and records. An example of a 'flat database is a name
and address file. It's not linked to anything, so if you had a city
field, and had 25 addresses in Cupertino, and the city got 10 million
from Apple to change the name to Apple City, you would have to change
the city field in 25 records. If it were a relational database, and you
set up a link between the citycode field in the main database and the
citycode field in a cities database, then all of the addresses in
Cupertino would have a code in the city field ('14') and the cities
database would have 2 fields, one citycode and one cityname. All of the
addresses in Cupertino would have a '14' in the city field and all of
them would link to the one record in the cities database, so to make the
change, all you would have to do is go to the cities database and change
the cityname from 'Cupertino' to 'Apple City'.
It sounds like OO 1.1.15 treated the dbf files as unlinked individual
databases. Therefore the flat database concept was a deficiency in
the code of OO, not in the structure of the dbf format. Maybe no one
wanted to acknowledge this, so they made the dBase format the scapegoat.
Re: your last comment, I would not mention dBase as a flat file. If it
were necessary to have an example of a flat fire, I would look for a
well known database that actually is a flat file, or define it as a list
of data broken into sections, like a comma delimited list.
Another comment was made in another message re: the definition of
relation. Actually the 2 databases cited above are related. I the
commonness (is that a word?) of them is the citycode field, and the
connection is via the software. In dBase they must be indexed on the
linking field. The command used to relate them is set relation to.
Runnin' out of wind,
John
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Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 03/03/2013 09:30 AM, Regina Henschel wrote: Hi John, John R. Sowden schrieb: Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat file database, not a relational database. The below definitions from the Base Intro documentation demonstrate what I am saying: Do you have a direct link? *Flat databases* A flat database contains one or more tables, each containing one or more fields. Each table is completely independent of all the other tables in the database. For example, I have an address database with seven tables in it. One has my family's contacts, another has my business contacts, and another has my wife's family contacts. While some contacts are contained in more than one table, different tables may not have the same information about the same person. dBase is a flat database program. LibreOffice and several database programs can also create flat databases. *Relational databases* Relational databases contain one or more tables with one or more relationships; each relaltionship is defined by a pair of fields. One field of each pair belongs to one table and the second field belongs to the same or a different table. Where relationships exist between fields in the same or different tables, a flat database could still be used, but it provides no mechanism for defining the relationship. Instead the same data must be entered in both fields, making data entry errors more likely. A well designed relational database requires the data to be entered only once, reducing possible errors. I think, it is a wrong definition of the term 'relational database'. The word 'relation' in 'relational database' means the mathematical definition of 'relation', which is connected to 'tupel', a organization of data in rows and columns. It is not about a 'relationship'. Another database model is a hierarchical model for example, which is tree-like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_database. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_model http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datenbankmodell It seems, that 'Flat database' is used for a database with one single table. But such a database would still be a relational database. My German text book does not have any term which would correspond to 'Flat database'. And the German Wikipedia article has no database model 'Flat database'. dbase is a relational database per the above definition. I link 2 tables with 1 field so I can refer to data in the second database so data does not have to bbe entered multiple times. In our alarm monitoring station, when a police dept. changes its phone number, we change 1 field in 1 database. Hundreds of subscriber records refer to that field to populate the data screen. It seems that LO ptb either have a problem with dbase/xbase, or they are (were) uninformed of the facts. dBase is a relational database application because the data is organized in tables. I think, there is no need to introduce the term 'flat database' at all. The distinction is in the management system. For files in dBase-format and for spreadsheets, LibreOffice itself is the database management system. For all other database connections, it uses an external database management system. Kind regards Regina Direct Link: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications#LibreOffice_Base_Guide A spreadsheet is organized as a table. That does not make it a relational database. John -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 03/03/2013 10:28 AM, Jay Lozier wrote: On 03/03/2013 12:39 PM, Mark Stanton wrote: I think the (incorrect) definition that is being used is whether LO manipulates files directly or talks to a database engine. I don't think there is a dBase or FoxBase engine. I'm pretty sure there is a Visual FoxPro engine (John doesn't mention VFP, whyzatt then? ;) ), however it'll be a Windoze only thing I expect. So, to answer the original question, LO is calling dBase files flat because it can't access a database engine for them and it won't do any engine work itself. A flat database? Errr, can't think of one, although I know there have been such things. Probably the closet to a flat database would be using a spreadsheet as a database for most people. Depending on the backend for Base and how well they communicate Base is can be the front end to a true relational database or to flat database. You only had to ask ;) Regards Mark Stanton exactly. -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 03/03/2013 10:50 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat file database, not a relational database. The main issue for me would be whether the database management system (some call it engine or whatever) actually enforces relational integrity (foreign key constraints) between tables. In case of directly writing to DBF files from LO Base, I would guess there's no enforcement. Sincerely, Wolfgang Foxpro and dBase do not support referential integrity. They do not have data dictionaries (possible VFP does, I don't know). I don't allow my users to write directly to any dbf. They must go through an application that I wrote (gigo, etc.). John -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] definition of flat/relational database
On 03/03/2013 10:09 AM, John R. Sowden wrote: Why do the Libreoffice powers that be define dbase/xbase as a flat file database, not a relational database. The below definitions from the Base Intro documentation demonstrate what I am saying: *Flat databases* A flat database contains one or more tables, each containing one or more fields. Each table is completely independent of all the other tables in the database. For example, I have an address database with seven tables in it. One has my family's contacts, another has my business contacts, and another has my wife's family contacts. While some contacts are contained in more than one table, different tables may not have the same information about the same person. dBase is a flat database program. LibreOffice and several database programs can also create flat databases. *Relational databases* Relational databases contain one or more tables with one or more relationships; each relaltionship is defined by a pair of fields. One field of each pair belongs to one table and the second field belongs to the same or a different table. Where relationships exist between fields in the same or different tables, a flat database could still be used, but it provides no mechanism for defining the relationship. Instead the same data must be entered in both fields, making data entry errors more likely. A well designed relational database requires the data to be entered only once, reducing possible errors. dbase is a relational database per the above definition. I link 2 tables with 1 field so I can refer to data in the second database so data does not have to bbe entered multiple times. In our alarm monitoring station, when a police dept. changes its phone number, we change 1 field in 1 database. Hundreds of subscriber records refer to that field to populate the data screen. It seems that LO ptb either have a problem with dbase/xbase, or they are (were) uninformed of the facts. John Sowden (been programming in dBase II (under cp/m), Foxbase, Foxpro (under DOS) since 1981) See the string Link Base to External Spreadsheet -- _ °v° /(_)\ ^ ^ Mark LaPierre Registered Linux user No #267004 https://linuxcounter.net/ -- For unsubscribe instructions e-mail to: users+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
