RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base: Questions From Potential New User
Original message From: Alex Thurgood alex.thurg...@gmail.com Date:01/17/2015 7:38 AM (GMT-05:00) To: users@global.libreoffice.org Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base: Questions From Potential New User Le 16/01/2015 18:04, Rich Shepard a écrit : That copying is what I was hoping to avoid. I'll create the sqlite db, then see if I can connect to it via a sqlite-odbc driver. Should be one that will work. The copying/execution step should only really be a last resort, if the combination of driver/Base doesn't pick all of the constraints you have set. Alex Sqlite can be accessed using MYSQL. I know I have a recipe database that uses sqlite. I can access the tables with MySQL. I can see them using MySQL Workplace. I can also use Base to see them through MySQL. Dan -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base: Questions From Potential New User
On Fri, 16 Jan 2015, Alex Thurgood wrote: You don't say whether your users will be just reading, or reading from and writing to the database. Alex, Reading and writing. Also be aware that SQLite timestamps and datetime data are incorrectly handled by Base as far as I recall. That's interesting. Will have to look for problems. The easiest way to do this might be to set up an empty ODB that connects to your SQlite file via a driver, then after loading the ODF file use Tools SQL and copy in your DDL statement into the SQL window. That copying is what I was hoping to avoid. I'll create the sqlite db, then see if I can connect to it via a sqlite-odbc driver. Should be one that will work. Thanks, Rich -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Bullshit. There are plenty of cross-platform RDBMSes that are not implemented in this grotesque proprietary abomination that Java is. My comment, or Sun's decision ? Sun's decision. Compulsive Javamania. There are bulkloads of programming languages and frameworks that allow cross-platform application development way better than Java will ever do. How many of those cross-platform RDBMs were : - available in 2004 (when the decision was made to upgrade the OOo1 Base iteration to something new) ? Postgres (back then without SQL) version 1 was released in 1989. And before Postgres there was Ingres from the same developers. That's where the name comes from, after all. - didn't require masses of developer investment time and resources to integrate into the codebase ? The SDBC driver was already there, developed by third-parties. - ran on OSX, Windows and Linux ? PostgreSQL runs on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PostgreSQL#Platforms It's even *shipped* with the default installation of MacOS X Server. - weren't Java based ? PostgreSQL isn't. If you're a completely obsessive Java fetishist, you *can* use PL/Java for server-side application logic though. - could be made to run in a single file and be portable across various OSes ? I don't see a reason for the single file requirement. It's installed separately anyway. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
A database like MySQL and mariadb cache the updates and then write them to disk every 1/2 to full second (or however configured). Seems like a good idea. I wouldn't consider MySQL and its descendents as good references for data integrity. So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. That would only confuse most end users. The point is that the developers should make the most reasonable choice - Which is imho obviously to use exclusively an external client-server RDBMS. And since the driver for PostgreSQL already comes with LO that's the best choice. PostgreSQL is legendary for its robustness. Besides shipping with a reasonable default configuration for home use and being perfectly scalable up to a multi-master cluster of mainframes. The developers should rather focus their limited resources on fixing bugs with the Base client side (forms, reports, etc.). Yes, I know that you can link to other back-end db's, but LO Base doesn't create those db's - that has to be done ahead of time by someone that is skilled with the particular db. With PgAdmin (which comes with PostgreSQL) it's as simple as creating a new document with LO. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
As I recall, at the time of the release of OpenOffice2, it had to be like Access Braindead. - but of course, as Sun was mainly running the show, that meant that it had to be multi-OS, thus Java based Bullshit. There are plenty of cross-platform RDBMSes that are not implemented in this grotesque proprietary abomination that Java is. and a fairly simple, drop-in piece of code with an appropriate licence. One would do well to remember that at the time, the internal Sun Base development team only comprised about 3 members of staff working full-time on the project, thus resources were painfully limited. Just yet another argument in favor of just providing a driver for a client-server RDBMS. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. That would only confuse most end users. Hear, hear. The point is that the developers should make the most reasonable choice This mindset will not help LO broaden its user base. Users (even if most are apparently deemed stupid by some) should be in the driving seat and not some anonymous developers. Pip Coburn writes this about the tech industry: I believe that users are always in charge and that supply is a necessary but not sufficient condition for commercial success. Companies and products geared toward this holistic user orientation will succeed at far greater rates than those stuck in a supplier-oriented mind-set. As far as I'm concerned that hits the nail squarely on the head. And as to confusing users with complex choices... a well-designed system can be simple for simple needs and complex for complex needs. One-size-fits-all rarely fits anyone. IMHO etc. Jon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Hi :) +1 I think Base nearly does do the best way around. The only problem is that the easiest thing, the embedded database, is currently dangerously broken. The devs appear to be addressing that although, obviously, they can't fix the whole thing all at one go. The first step seems reasonably well chosen to get the main bulk away from java. I'm sure Java didn't used to be so awful. It seems to have nose-dived since Oracle took over but maybe that is preparation for monetising it and that is a reasonable thing for a profit-making company to want to do. It's like the story of the scorpion and the fox crossing a river. The scorpion stings the fox and as they both sink the fox asks why. The scorpion replies that it's his nature to sting and he can't help it. So can we really blame a profit-making company from attempting to subvert a free product it owns in order to later be able to sell an enterprise or professional version? It's a shame openJava can't escape and gather a huge community as LibreOffice did back when OpenOffice was owned by Oracle. Base currently allows users to start of by using an internal back-end and then move it to an external tool when they are ready. [shrugs] Seems a good plan to me. Regards from Tom :) On 5 August 2014 13:33, Jon Harringdon jonathan.harring...@virgin.net wrote: Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. That would only confuse most end users. Hear, hear. The point is that the developers should make the most reasonable choice This mindset will not help LO broaden its user base. Users (even if most are apparently deemed stupid by some) should be in the driving seat and not some anonymous developers. Pip Coburn writes this about the tech industry: I believe that users are always in charge and that supply is a necessary but not sufficient condition for commercial success. Companies and products geared toward this holistic user orientation will succeed at far greater rates than those stuck in a supplier-oriented mind-set. As far as I'm concerned that hits the nail squarely on the head. And as to confusing users with complex choices... a well-designed system can be simple for simple needs and complex for complex needs. One-size-fits-all rarely fits anyone. IMHO etc. Jon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: I think Base nearly does do the best way around. The only problem is that the easiest thing, the embedded database, is currently dangerously broken. The devs appear to be addressing that although, obviously, they can't fix the whole thing all at one go. The first step seems reasonably well chosen to get the main bulk away from java. I'm sure Java didn't used to be so awful. It seems to have nose-dived since Oracle took over but maybe that is preparation for monetising it and that is a reasonable thing for a profit-making company to want to do. My criticism was not at all directed specifically against Base as I don't know the first thing about it. It was rather directed against the idea that developers know better than users. They rarely, if ever, do, IMHO. Users have a zillion creative ways of (mis-)using a product, many of them undreamt-of by its developers. So the more user choice and less developer diktat a product exhibits, the better it is, in general. I avoid Java as much as I possibly can (read: always) but my argument has nothing whatsoever to do with Java. Jon On 5 August 2014 13:33, Jon Harringdon jonathan.harring...@virgin.net wrote: Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. That would only confuse most end users. Hear, hear. The point is that the developers should make the most reasonable choice This mindset will not help LO broaden its user base. Users (even if most are apparently deemed stupid by some) should be in the driving seat and not some anonymous developers. Pip Coburn writes this about the tech industry: I believe that users are always in charge and that supply is a necessary but not sufficient condition for commercial success. Companies and products geared toward this holistic user orientation will succeed at far greater rates than those stuck in a supplier-oriented mind-set. As far as I'm concerned that hits the nail squarely on the head. And as to confusing users with complex choices... a well-designed system can be simple for simple needs and complex for complex needs. One-size-fits-all rarely fits anyone. IMHO etc. Jon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
On 2014-08-05 06:02:12, Wolfgang Keller wrote: As I recall, at the time of the release of OpenOffice2, it had to be like Access Braindead. - but of course, as Sun was mainly running the show, that meant that it had to be multi-OS, thus Java based Bullshit. There are plenty of cross-platform RDBMSes that are not implemented in this grotesque proprietary abomination that Java is. and a fairly simple, drop-in piece of code with an appropriate licence. One would do well to remember that at the time, the internal Sun Base development team only comprised about 3 members of staff working full-time on the project, thus resources were painfully limited. Just yet another argument in favor of just providing a driver for a client-server RDBMS. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to- unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/ Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- william w. austin aire...@att.net life is just another phase i'm going through. this time, anyway ... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Hi :) I was kinda agreeing with you, hence the +1. I think people kinda understood what you meant and i suspect other people agree with you too. The devs sometimes have great plans and good ideas and then users do some crazy things. It's difficult to anticipate what users will find difficult and what is going to be easier for them to understand. I've really enjoyed this thread. Some amusing and enlightening posts. Thanks and regards from On 5 August 2014 14:56, Jon Harringdon jonathan.harring...@virgin.net wrote: Tom Davies tomc...@gmail.com wrote: I think Base nearly does do the best way around. The only problem is that the easiest thing, the embedded database, is currently dangerously broken. The devs appear to be addressing that although, obviously, they can't fix the whole thing all at one go. The first step seems reasonably well chosen to get the main bulk away from java. I'm sure Java didn't used to be so awful. It seems to have nose-dived since Oracle took over but maybe that is preparation for monetising it and that is a reasonable thing for a profit-making company to want to do. My criticism was not at all directed specifically against Base as I don't know the first thing about it. It was rather directed against the idea that developers know better than users. They rarely, if ever, do, IMHO. Users have a zillion creative ways of (mis-)using a product, many of them undreamt-of by its developers. So the more user choice and less developer diktat a product exhibits, the better it is, in general. I avoid Java as much as I possibly can (read: always) but my argument has nothing whatsoever to do with Java. Jon On 5 August 2014 13:33, Jon Harringdon jonathan.harring...@virgin.net wrote: Wolfgang Keller felip...@gmx.net wrote: So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. That would only confuse most end users. Hear, hear. The point is that the developers should make the most reasonable choice This mindset will not help LO broaden its user base. Users (even if most are apparently deemed stupid by some) should be in the driving seat and not some anonymous developers. Pip Coburn writes this about the tech industry: I believe that users are always in charge and that supply is a necessary but not sufficient condition for commercial success. Companies and products geared toward this holistic user orientation will succeed at far greater rates than those stuck in a supplier-oriented mind-set. As far as I'm concerned that hits the nail squarely on the head. And as to confusing users with complex choices... a well-designed system can be simple for simple needs and complex for complex needs. One-size-fits-all rarely fits anyone. IMHO etc. Jon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
How does switching to Firebird solve the issue of an embedded, all in memory database? I would be happy if LO offered an option (when creating a db) to use embedded model or the split model. Dave, On Mon, Aug 4, 2014, at 03:27 AM, Alex Thurgood wrote: Le 01/08/2014 12:55, Wolfgang Keller a écrit : I never understood why anyone halfway sane in their minds would use an embedded database anyway or why the developers of StarOffice/LO/OO even considered it. As I recall, at the time of the release of OpenOffice2, it had to be like Access - but of course, as Sun was mainly running the show, that meant that it had to be multi-OS, thus Java based and a fairly simple, drop-in piece of code with an appropriate licence. One would do well to remember that at the time, the internal Sun Base development team only comprised about 3 members of staff working full-time on the project, thus resources were painfully limited. It turned out to be not so simple after all, but that can be said about many things in software development. The issue of performance was raised even back then, and remains with us today - embedded Java bridging (via UNO JNI) of an in-memory database - loads of things to go potentially wrong at any given instance in the lifecycle of the application, notwithstanding that upgrading to newer versions of the db has always been fraught with complications, so a maintenance nightmare for OOo/AOO/LO developers. It can be done though, Fred Toussi (one of the lead developers on the hsqldb project) has, I believe, provided patches for the integration of an update to the hsqldb version code, but these have not been integrated due to the decision to move to Firebird. Database noobs wanted Access-like functionality and portability and multi-OS operation - the fact that they don't really get that today with LibreOffice Base is due more to lack of functional implementation/integration witn the other parts of LibreOffice than to the type of underlying db. Even MS Access has moved to a separated db/frontend paradigm, as far as I understand. Just to put things in perspective, there are, to my knowledge, currently no full/part time paid-to-work developers within the LibreOffice project that work on Base - everything done is voluntary, spare/free time involvement, so it is hardly surprising that things with Base move a little more slowly than modules such as Writer and Calc, in fact, it is my undestanding that the main voluntary developer spends most of his time in the project undoing the bugs/regressions caused by ongoing code development elsewhere within the LibreOffice project. Alex -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- dave boland dbola...@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different... -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Le 04/08/2014 14:51, dave boland a écrit : How does switching to Firebird solve the issue of an embedded, all in memory database? I would be happy if LO offered an option (when creating a db) to use embedded model or the split model. Any embedded DB engine (HSQL or Firebird or any other) won't solve the Base [R]DBMS embedding problems. Only external DB engines can be reliable. Using an external DBMS is up to you. Base/LibO can be setup accordingly. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014, at 09:10 AM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: Le 04/08/2014 14:51, dave boland a écrit : How does switching to Firebird solve the issue of an embedded, all in memory database? I would be happy if LO offered an option (when creating a db) to use embedded model or the split model. Any embedded DB engine (HSQL or Firebird or any other) won't solve the Base [R]DBMS embedding problems. Only external DB engines can be reliable. Using an external DBMS is up to you. Base/LibO can be setup accordingly. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux That is my point. That is why Base needs to make setting up an external db easy - like when the db is being created. Check one box for the embedded model, another for the split/external model. Appropriate Help infornation will be needed. While they are at it, how about an option to do mariadb or mysql external db instead of just HSQL or Firebird? Dave, -- dave boland dbola...@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders wherever you are -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
On 08/04/2014 04:15 PM, dave boland wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2014, at 09:10 AM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: Le 04/08/2014 14:51, dave boland a écrit : How does switching to Firebird solve the issue of an embedded, all in memory database? I would be happy if LO offered an option (when creating a db) to use embedded model or the split model. Any embedded DB engine (HSQL or Firebird or any other) won't solve the Base [R]DBMS embedding problems. Only external DB engines can be reliable. Using an external DBMS is up to you. Base/LibO can be setup accordingly. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux That is my point. That is why Base needs to make setting up an external db easy - like when the db is being created. Check one box for the embedded model, another for the split/external model. Appropriate Help infornation will be needed. While they are at it, how about an option to do mariadb or mysql external db instead of just HSQL or Firebird? Dave, BIG +1 (or rather +100) I think this is a MUST!! It took me a couple of years to puzzle out what was wrong, (Embedded vs External), and then a few weeks to get it all to work - very little info available - all I could do was step-by-step with the Forum. But once you get it all working the difference is amazing. One year down the line and not one crash or one piece of data lost!!! IanW Pretoria RSA -- -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Before I begin, I will plead ignorance of how these things really happen. It appears that what should be happening is that the database should always be external, but whether it is placed inside the same folder. To the user, the interpretation of 'internal' would be that it is within it's own folder and 'external' would be that the actual database is somewhere else during set-up. In this way, the database (I assume) could easily be copied and re-attached either 'internally' or 'externally'. Am I missing something here? Thanks Paul On 8/4/2014 10:15 AM, dave boland wrote: On Mon, Aug 4, 2014, at 09:10 AM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: Le 04/08/2014 14:51, dave boland a écrit : How does switching to Firebird solve the issue of an embedded, all in memory database? I would be happy if LO offered an option (when creating a db) to use embedded model or the split model. Any embedded DB engine (HSQL or Firebird or any other) won't solve the Base [R]DBMS embedding problems. Only external DB engines can be reliable. Using an external DBMS is up to you. Base/LibO can be setup accordingly. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux That is my point. That is why Base needs to make setting up an external db easy - like when the db is being created. Check one box for the embedded model, another for the split/external model. Appropriate Help infornation will be needed. While they are at it, how about an option to do mariadb or mysql external db instead of just HSQL or Firebird? Dave, -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014, at 12:30 PM, Alexander Thurgood wrote: Le 04/08/2014 16:41, Paul D. Mirowsky a écrit : Before I begin, I will plead ignorance of how these things really happen. It appears that what should be happening is that the database should always be external, but whether it is placed inside the same folder. To the user, the interpretation of 'internal' would be that it is within it's own folder and 'external' would be that the actual database is somewhere else during set-up. The default Base file, with an ODB extension, is a container (zipped). Within that container are files and subfolders, some files describe the structure and content of the database in a form that LibreOffice's embedded hsqldb engine can read when you load the file. The subfolders generally relate to other aspects of the ODB file, such as macros, forms, reports, report definitions (XML), query definitions, etc) When you reference an outside db backend, everything but the actual database content and data defintitions get stored in the ODB file, with simply a reference to that content and how to access it being stored in the ODB. In other words, your data is actually safe somewhere else (on a server, on another part of your hard disk, etc) Utimately, for as long your actual database data is somewhere else, you could screw up your ODB file and still not affect your data. However, you would potentially lose all of your query/report definitions, your macros, forms, etc. Note that forms do not have to be stored within the ODB, they can be stored as standalone documents. The same goes for reports, although the report definitions are always stored within the ODB file (unless someone has found a way to get around that). Alex I'm getting a little confused. My understanding is that there are really two issues here. One is that LO Base is RAM resident - all updates are held in RAM until saved by the user, or the program is closed. Correct? If so, this situation will expose the user to data loss between saves. The other issue is that LO Base uses an embedded database, which means that the data files and the GUI, reports, etc. are combined into one file that can be corrupted. The suggestion is to use a split system where the data files are separate from the other files. Correct? If so, at best, the data may be a little safer, but forms, queries, etc. can still be corrupted. A database like MySQL and mariadb cache the updates and then write them to disk every 1/2 to full second (or however configured). Seems like a good idea. So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. Would that be difficult to do? Yes, I know that you can link to other back-end db's, but LO Base doesn't create those db's - that has to be done ahead of time by someone that is skilled with the particular db. Correct? Dave, -- dave boland dbola...@fastmail.fm -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Base questions
Le 04/08/2014 18:59, dave boland a écrit : I'm getting a little confused. My understanding is that there are really two issues here. One is that LO Base is RAM resident - all updates are held in RAM until saved by the user, or the program is closed. Correct? If so, this situation will expose the user to data loss between saves. There are two components here: the DB engine (eg HSQLDB) and the front-end (ie LO-Base). In embedded mode, running Base stats the DB engine and opens the wanted database. In this situation, yes, database updates are set to ram until the database is saved, either voluntarily or when Base is shut down. And yes, any flaw in *any* piece of software running while Base and the DB also run, can create DB loss. The other issue is that LO Base uses an embedded database, which means that the data files and the GUI, reports, etc. are combined into one file that can be corrupted. The suggestion is to use a split system where the data files are separate from the other files. Correct? If so, at best, the data may be a little safer, but forms, queries, etc. can still be corrupted. Yes, this is what split-mode is all about. A database like MySQL and mariadb cache the updates and then write them to disk every 1/2 to full second (or however configured). Seems like a good idea. So I come back to my suggestion earlier today - LO Base needs to give the user the opportunity to specify what they want - RAM or file based, single file or multiple files. Would that be difficult to do? WRT HSQL it's just a couple settings away: (1) in LO global settings (Tools/Options, Advanced page) specify where the external HSQLDB engine is stored (Class Path button) - Add archive: points to the hsqldb.jar - Add Folder: points to the directory where hsqldb.jar is stored (lib dir) Then make sure to check the test button These setings are stored in the user profile /config directory. (2) in Base, DB creation wizard - at step 1 : select JDBC database - at step 2 : specify the DB address settings Datasource URL : hsqldb:file:d:/somedir/mybase/basetest;default_schema=true;shutdown=true;hsqldb.default_table_type=cached;get_column_name=false JDBC Driver class: org.hsqldb.jdbcDriver Test with the Test Class button. These settings are stored in the RegistryModifications.xcu file. To me, the main difficulty lies in the backup of these settings (config dir and RegistryModifications.xcu and the .odb file), so that you may change PC without hassle. Unless I'm missing the obvious, it is not the case currently. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
