date:20140101

Hi,

Lately I have been facing a lot of difficulty trying to get the
information I want easily using journalctl.  I find the manpage of
limited use; as in, it has the basic information but the more advanced
information is scattered in several manpages and the text is littered
with jargon more appropriate for developers (IMO this last point holds
true for most of systemd documentation)!

So I thought it might be useful to share a few methods I know, followed
by some questions.  Maybe others can share their tricks too.  This
thread could then serve as a more accessible documentation for users
(which could then be ported to a wiki page).

Some basic comments:

1. If your journal size is large, piping to grep is quite a bit slow.
2. To run journalctl as a regular user, you need to add yourself to the
   group systemd-journal, logout, and login again.

Useful commandline switches I'm familiar with:

1. Most recent entries first, `-r/--reverse'.

2. To follow, `-f/--follow'.

3. To limit logs by timestamp, `--since/--until'; it takes absolute
   timestamps (2013-12-31) as well as relative time stamps (-2d, -10m).
   BTW, the manpage does not say anything about the units for relative
   times.  I had to find out by trial-and-error m stands for minutes,
   not months.

4. Limit output from this boot, `-b/--this-boot'.

 $ journalctl -b 'bootid'.

   I find the more general interface to filter by _BOOT_ID most
   ridiculous.  How is the user supposed to know what was the boot-id
   for any of the previous sessions?

5. Filter by unit files, `-u/--unit'.

 $ journalctl -u unit_file # .service extension optional

6. To filter by journal fields, just pass FIELD=value.

7. The actual useful documentation for (4), (5)  (6) is really in
   systemd.journal-fields(7).  No mention is made of this other than the
   `SEE ALSO' section at the very end.  The fields manpage is also the
   perfect example of documentation written for developers instead of
   users (another one would be journald.conf(5)).

8. You can list valid values for the fields in (6) with `-F/--field'.
   Example, for all known boot-ids do this:

 $ journalctl -F _BOOT_ID


Now my questions:

1. How can I filter messages printed to the logs from my cron jobs?  I
   will try to explain by example:

 $ journalctl -ru crond --since=-3d
 -- Logs begin at Sun 2013-11-17 02:48:46 CET, end at Wed 2014-01-01 
20:31:27 CET. --

 $ journalctl -r --since -3d | grep rsnapshot
 Jan 01 04:34:08 hostname rsnapshot[15294]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: 
completed successfully
 Jan 01 04:30:01 hostname CROND[15270]: (root) CMD (/usr/bin/rsnapshot 
daily)
 Jan 01 04:00:07 hostname rsnapshot[15198]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot monthly: 
completed successfully
 Jan 01 04:00:01 hostname CROND[15196]: (root) CMD (/usr/bin/rsnapshot 
monthly)
 Dec 31 04:35:45 hostname rsnapshot[11360]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: 
ERROR: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: completed, but with some errors
 Dec 31 04:35:45 hostname rsnapshot[11359]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: 
ERROR: /usr/bin/rsync returned 255 while processing user@host:/etc/
 Dec 31 04:33:37 hostname rsnapshot[11353]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: 
ERROR: /usr/bin/rsync returned 255 while processing user@host:/home/user/
 Dec 31 04:30:01 hostname CROND[11334]: (root) CMD (/usr/bin/rsnapshot 
daily)
 Dec 30 04:36:05 hostname rsnapshot[8265]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: 
ERROR: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: completed, but with some errors
 Dec 30 04:36:05 hostname rsnapshot[8264]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: 
ERROR: /usr/bin/rsync returned 255 while processing user@host:/etc/
 Dec 30 04:33:58 hostname rsnapshot[8254]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: 
ERROR: /usr/bin/rsync returned 255 while processing user@host:/home/user/
 Dec 30 04:30:02 hostname CROND[8237]: (root) CMD (/usr/bin/rsnapshot 
daily)

   What I understand from this is `-u unit' only tells me what happened
   when the unit file was (un)loaded, not what the process prints to the
   log files.  How do I get this information?  Is cron special in this
   regard?

2. I would like to filter logs that typically go into /var/log/secure
   (or other similar files); how do I do that?  Is grep my only option
   for cases like these?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

Cheers,

-- 
Suvayu

Open source is the future. It sets us free.
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/01/2014 03:16 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

On 12/31/2013 10:49 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

No.  That's just blatantly wrong.  journalctl's output is a pixel
perfect match of /var/log/messages.

...

Sure, it has some improvements controllable via options but nothing that
would trip up grep.  The point is that you don't need to know any fields
to use the journalctl output.


What improvements? Is it possible to get it a pixel perfect match 
using options?


What you do need to know is where the fields differ. This as you might 
need to update your scripts to handle these differences.


I can not see any reason why the output of journalctl can not to be a 
pixel perfect match, so why is it not?


Lars
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Re: Reverse E-Mail Blockage.....

2014-01-01 Thread Eddie G. O'Connor Jr.


On 01/01/2014 02:06 PM, David wrote:

On 1/1/2014 1:31 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:

On 12/30/2013 04:07 PM, David wrote:
I have it on...and I would hope its working...but its just seems to me
that a LOT of spam is getting inI dunno. I think I will be looking
into Spam Assassin for TB,...and will be customizing my Message
Filters...make some customized rules for this and then let it run. might
even create a new email account and only use it for the mailing lists
here and at CEntOSthanks for all the infoadvice...etc. And happy
New Year Everyone!!


EGO II



Like all spam filters, that I know of, you have to train it. You have to
mark emails as spam that you consider spam.

Thunderbird and Junk / Spam Messages

https://support.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/kb/thunderbird-and-junk-spam-messages

You have a Gmail address and they have a filter system too. But you also
have to 'tweak' it from time to time.

Spam Assassin would be the same way I would think. I do not know of any
spam filter program that already knows what email that *you* consider to
be spam. Like virus scanners they look for patterns.

My suggestion, what I do, is to train Gmail as to what is spam. That way
you don't even download it.

As for TBird message filters. Those are designed to move messages that
you want from your inbox to various folders. This message, for me, goes
to   account_name/Inbox/Fedora/Users

To try to do that with all of the My suggestion, what I do, is to train
Gmail as to what is spam. That way you don't even download it.am that
you say that you get would drive you crazy.  :-)
Well thank you all for your input...I've gotten Spam Assassin 
installedand now I'm going to play with it to see just how precise I 
ca get itI'll start off with the obvious stuff..(viagra.online 
pharmacy..erroneous dating sites, the million dollars I'm getting 
from the UK Lottery, the car / boat / house I qualify to purchasethe 
women who OBVIOUSLY want to date me from the 
Ukraine...GermanySpain..etcand the free offers from anyone with 
an internet connection and a computer!) then I'll try to work it towards 
the other stuff! I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes!...



EGO II
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Re: Reverse E-Mail Blockage.....

2014-01-01 Thread David

On 1/1/2014 2:36 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 01, 2014 at 02:06:41PM -0500, David wrote:
 Like all spam filters, that I know of, you have to train it. You have to
 mark emails as spam that you consider spam.
 
 Yep.
 
 Spam Assassin would be the same way I would think. I do not know of any
 spam filter program that already knows what email that *you* consider to
 be spam. Like virus scanners they look for patterns.
 
 Yes.  It learns pretty quickly; feed it the probably spam and almost
 certainly spam files at first; eventually all you'll have to add is what
 has slipped through.
 
 If you don't want to get into system-wide spam scanning, and/or don't want
 to get into the complexities of Spam Assassin, you can get a pretty good
 Baysean filter with PopFILE for Linux.
 
 As for TBird message filters. Those are designed to move messages that
 you want from your inbox to various folders. This message, for me, goes
 to   account_name/Inbox/Fedora/Users
 
 You often use the message filter in conjunction with your anti-spam
 solution--e.g., for PopFILE, have it modify the Subject line to include the
 string [spam], and then filter on that.
 
 Cheers,
 --
   Dave Ihnat
   dih...@dminet.com
 


I believe that I said earlier that I have several email accounts. Three
are company provided. One for 'general', one for my secretary, and one
for my foreman. Those three are all encrypted and never get any spam. I
have another for friends and family. Also encrypted too. I have another
that I use for online purchases. And I have the one that I use for
mailing lists and general online 'stuff'. That one, this one, is the
only one that ever gets any spam. Gmail catches most of them. 5-10 per
month. Last year I only had a total of about 100 and only one got all
the way to me.

Any one that get 'hundreds and hundreds a month', IMHO, is doing some
very wrongly.

-- 

  David
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Re: GNOME questions on fc20

2014-01-01 Thread Alex

Hi,

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Steven Stern
subscribed-li...@sterndata.com wrote:
 On 12/31/2013 12:27 PM, Alex wrote:
 Hi, I have fc20 installed successfully on my desktop.

 How can I configure the clock at the top to show the date? Why would
 it be so difficult to do such a simple thing? I googled a bit, and saw
 a reference to editing dateMenu.js, but the suggestions didn't work. I
 can't believe I'd have to edit a text file to adjust the clock?!

 I get the whole thing with not being able to (easily) minimize
 applications. I know I can also switch between them with alt-tab. I
 also know I can select them from Activities, but that's an extra two
 steps. Is there any way to dock apps like we used to be able to, so
 I can select them with the mouse to choose between them?

 Use gnome-tweak-tool. ON the top bar tab, select show date The
 windows tab lets you minimize windows.  Look at the various gnome

show date only shows month and day, not year. There doesn't appear
to be a date extension that does this.

I don't have a windows tab. Is it supposed to be alongside the
activites tab?

 shell extensions.  Go here https://extensions.gnome.org to get
 extensions that will let you add a dock and do other things to make the
 desktop friendlier. I use the dash to dock extension, as well as top
 icons

The taskbar extension looks good. I'm surprised it isn't part of the
core install.

Thanks,
Alex
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Re: Reverse E-Mail Blockage.....

2014-01-01 Thread David

On 1/1/2014 3:50 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
 On 01/01/2014 02:06 PM, David wrote:
 On 1/1/2014 1:31 PM, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
 On 12/30/2013 04:07 PM, David wrote:
 I have it on...and I would hope its working...but its just seems to me
 that a LOT of spam is getting inI dunno. I think I will be looking
 into Spam Assassin for TB,...and will be customizing my Message
 Filters...make some customized rules for this and then let it run. might
 even create a new email account and only use it for the mailing lists
 here and at CEntOSthanks for all the infoadvice...etc. And happy
 New Year Everyone!!


 EGO II


 Like all spam filters, that I know of, you have to train it. You have to
 mark emails as spam that you consider spam.

 Thunderbird and Junk / Spam Messages

 https://support.mozillamessaging.com/en-US/kb/thunderbird-and-junk-spam-messages


 You have a Gmail address and they have a filter system too. But you also
 have to 'tweak' it from time to time.

 Spam Assassin would be the same way I would think. I do not know of any
 spam filter program that already knows what email that *you* consider to
 be spam. Like virus scanners they look for patterns.

 My suggestion, what I do, is to train Gmail as to what is spam. That way
 you don't even download it.

 As for TBird message filters. Those are designed to move messages that
 you want from your inbox to various folders. This message, for me, goes
 to   account_name/Inbox/Fedora/Users

 To try to do that with all of the My suggestion, what I do, is to train
 Gmail as to what is spam. That way you don't even download it.am that
 you say that you get would drive you crazy.  :-)
 Well thank you all for your input...I've gotten Spam Assassin
 installedand now I'm going to play with it to see just how precise I
 ca get itI'll start off with the obvious stuff..(viagra.online
 pharmacy..erroneous dating sites, the million dollars I'm getting
 from the UK Lottery, the car / boat / house I qualify to purchasethe
 women who OBVIOUSLY want to date me from the
 Ukraine...GermanySpain..etcand the free offers from anyone with
 an internet connection and a computer!) then I'll try to work it towards
 the other stuff! I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes!...
 
 
 EGO II


Good luck and have fun. Like I said *I* started with Gmail. That filters
the emails *before* they get downloaded to my email client.

-- 

  David
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Re: GNOME questions on fc20

2014-01-01 Thread Alex

Hi,

 How can I configure the clock at the top to show the date? Why would
 it be so difficult to do such a simple thing?

 It isn't that difficult.

 # yum install gnome-tweak-tool

 Search for Tweak tool in the overview and go to the Top Bar section.

 The command line equivalent is

 # gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.interface clock-show-date true

 Alt +F2,  press r and enter to restart the shell

Awesome, thanks. I see there are quite a few schemas that can be
configured using gsettings. Do you have any others that you frequently
adjust that might also be helpful?

Thanks,
Alex
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 3:40 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

 What improvements? Is it possible to get it a pixel perfect match using
 options?

 What you do need to know is where the fields differ. This as you might
 need to update your scripts to handle these differences.

 I can not see any reason why the output of journalctl can not to be a
 pixel perfect match, so why is it not?


If you want to find out what journalctl can support, look at the man page.
If you have suggestions for improvements, post it in Bugzilla like I did
yesterday.

Rahul
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Re: Reverse E-Mail Blockage.....

2014-01-01 Thread Bob Goodwin - Zuni, Virginia, USA



On 01/01/14 15:50, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
Well thank you all for your input...I've gotten Spam Assassin 
installedand now I'm going to play with it to see just how precise 
I ca get itI'll start off with the obvious 
stuff..(viagra.online pharmacy..erroneous dating sites, the 
million dollars I'm getting from the UK Lottery, the car / boat / 
house I qualify to purchasethe women who OBVIOUSLY want to date me 
from the Ukraine...GermanySpain..etcand the free offers from 
anyone with an internet connection and a computer!) then I'll try to 
work it towards the other stuff! I'll be sure to let you all know how 
it goes!...



EGO II 



As I said a few days ago, I have been using gmail for five or six years 
and never see any of the stuff you show above. There is something odd 
about your gmail account or settings if it is not being filtered by gmail.


I rarely have to note anything as spam for the Thunderbird junk filter. 
I do have a lot of filters to sort e-mail for my convenience in reading 
it but spam is rarely a concern, all those good deals are removed as 
spam by gmail. I have no need for spam assassin or anything like it ...


Bob

--
http://www.qrz.com/db/w2bod
Box10 Fedora-20/64bit Linux

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/01/2014 10:19 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

If you want to find out what journalctl can support, look at the man
page. If you have suggestions for improvements, post it in Bugzilla like
I did yesterday.


OK, I thought you meant that you knew an option that did it pixel 
perfect. Perhaps I misunderstood you.


Bugzilla 1047700

Lars
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 12/31/2013 10:20 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Your proposal is irrelevant when we are talking about current reality.


No it is by no means not. By implementing my proposal this mail is not 
lost (as Lennart Poettering stated it in the devel list) by ending up in 
/var/spool/mail. If included in the installation process of Fedora, 
perhaps also mentioning that the user should/could set up their mail 
client to read spool mail, these message will definitely not be lost.


Sadly messages are lost in F20 as distributed now, read question 1 in 
the mail from Suvayu Ali titled Manipulating journalctl output dated 
20:57 Jan 1, as an example.


He states that his journal says Dec 30 04:36:05 hostname 
rsnapshot[8265]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: ERROR: /usr/bin/rsnapshot 
daily: completed, but with some errors but where to find that error? In 
F19 these errors would have been forwarded to the mail spool via 
/etc/aliases. Now it is lost.



journalctl is not a requirement to read logs.  It is just far more
easier than grepping through /var/log/messages for the common use
cases.


As always that depends on the use case (see at the end). One nice thing 
with journalctl though, is the possibility to filter the last 10 minutes 
and similar, that is a bit awkward to do without using awk or similar on 
/var/log/messages (is it possible to filter out a time slice with 
journalctl, man page gives no clue?). But in all, a pure ASCII file is 
so simple that even a novice can handle it. And for grepping, journalctl 
is too slow.



As I mentioned before desktop environment have graphical
utilities to read log files.  gnome-system-log for /var/log/messages for
example.


Yes, but it is a bit hard to filter using that. (On a side note, on my 
system the Date/time field is white text on white background which makes 
it a bit hard to read. (Do you have a solution for that))



GNOME is also getting a systemd specific log viewer as well

https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-announce-list/2013-September/msg00097.html


OK. Tested that but could not get any usable output from it at the 
moment. Perhaps it is a bit too early to test it yet,



Other similar utilities are available for other DE's as well.If it
is important, the DE should notify the user proactively and not wait on
them to read some log file


On that I agree. And mail from logwatch is an example of that. 
Notifications another. But when you get notified, you tend to look up 
your logs, and then it is good if these are readily available, fast, and 
easy to handle.


Look at the following use case (Fedora 20). The journal starts in July, 
/var/log content in September. In this use case using simple text files 
is extremely faster than journalctl. Also note the differences is size.


(I have not done any changes to the configuration of the journal, so 
this could be the journal of a normal user (well, perhaps not, in this 
case it is my home web and mail server and it probably produces more 
journal data than a desktop user does))


[root@gw ~]# time journalctl | grep xyz
...
real25m31.478s
user11m2.966s
sys 2m36.218s
[root@gw ~]# time grep -r --exclude-dir=journal xyz /var/log
...
real1m6.362s
user0m2.253s
sys 0m1.201s
...
[root@gw ~]# du -sh --exclude=journal /var/log
620M/var/log
[root@gw ~]# du -sh /var/log/journal
3.7G/var/log/journal
[root@gw ~]#

Lars
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Re: GNOME questions on fc20

2014-01-01 Thread Steven Stern

On 01/01/2014 03:00 PM, Alex wrote:
 Hi,
 
 On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Steven Stern
 subscribed-li...@sterndata.com wrote:
 On 12/31/2013 12:27 PM, Alex wrote:
 Hi, I have fc20 installed successfully on my desktop.

 How can I configure the clock at the top to show the date? Why would
 it be so difficult to do such a simple thing? I googled a bit, and saw
 a reference to editing dateMenu.js, but the suggestions didn't work. I
 can't believe I'd have to edit a text file to adjust the clock?!

 I get the whole thing with not being able to (easily) minimize
 applications. I know I can also switch between them with alt-tab. I
 also know I can select them from Activities, but that's an extra two
 steps. Is there any way to dock apps like we used to be able to, so
 I can select them with the mouse to choose between them?

 Use gnome-tweak-tool. ON the top bar tab, select show date The
 windows tab lets you minimize windows.  Look at the various gnome
 
 show date only shows month and day, not year. There doesn't appear
 to be a date extension that does this.

It's 2014. That should hold you for a year. :-)


 
 I don't have a windows tab. Is it supposed to be alongside the
 activites tab?
 
 shell extensions.  Go here https://extensions.gnome.org to get
 extensions that will let you add a dock and do other things to make the
 desktop friendlier. I use the dash to dock extension, as well as top
 icons
 
 The taskbar extension looks good. I'm surprised it isn't part of the
 core install.
 
 Thanks,
 Alex
 


-- 
-- Steve
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suspend or hibernate

2014-01-01 Thread Richard Vickery

Hi there:

I just called up the gnome-tweak-tool: what's the difference between
suspend and hibernate? It gives these, among other sleeping actions when
folding the computer up.

Just curious - hibernate doesn't have a man page.

Thanks
--
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Re: announcement --- planned Yum replacement now ready for user testing


On 12/20/2013 12:33 PM, Ales Kozumplik wrote:

On behalf of the DNF team I'd like to invite all the interested Fedora
users in trying out and testing DNF in Fedora 20. DNF is a tool that
aims to fully replace Yum by Fedora 22. Please check out the blog post
for more information:


A question, I found the following on 
http://akozumpl.github.io/dnf/cli_vs_yum.html


dnf erase kernel deletes all packages called kernel

In Yum, the running kernel is spared. There is no reason to keep this in 
DNF, the user can always specify concrete versions on the command line, 
e.g.:


dnf erase kernel-3.9.4

So if I issue 'dnf erase kernel' all kernels will be removed, and I have 
no kernel anymore? Is that really a good thing? Should we not spare the 
running kernel? Or is there some rationale behind this that I am missing?


Lars
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Re: suspend or hibernate

2014-01-01 Thread Ed Greshko

On 01/02/14 06:09, Richard Vickery wrote:
 I just called up the gnome-tweak-tool: what's the difference between suspend 
 and hibernate? It gives these, among other sleeping actions when folding the 
 computer up.

 Just curious - hibernate doesn't have a man page.


suspend keeps the system powered on, but in a low power mode.  No computing is 
done but the current working state is kept in memory.  Resume from suspend is 
very (or should be) quick. 

hibernate places memory on disk and the system is completely powered off.

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 4:50 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

 On 12/31/2013 10:20 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

 Your proposal is irrelevant when we are talking about current reality.


 No it is by no means not. By implementing my proposal this mail is not
 lost (as Lennart Poettering stated it in the devel list) by ending up in
 /var/spool/mail. If included in the installation process of Fedora, perhaps
 also mentioning that the user should/could set up their mail client to read
 spool mail, these message will definitely not be lost.


You are again missing the point that when evaluating changes, you can't do
so against a hypothesized change that noone is working on.  You will have
to evaluate it against status quo vs someone willing to do the work
involved.  You are not volunteering to work on what you are proposing so it
wouldn't get done unless someone else buys into your ideas and so far noone
has.  You haven't considered all the different use cases which makes it
very difficult to make any meaningful decisions during installation time.
I won't list them but one quick example:  Anaconda doesn't require you to
create a user at installation time. Instead you can do so during
initial-setup time and that user may not be a local user at all.  The
current design of the installer is to do the minimum needed during
installation time and your proposal doesn't fit with that model either.

 As always that depends on the use case (see at the end)

I said common use cases.  If you have to fallback to using grep, so be it
but what journalctl offers is a supset of what traditional syslog daemons
offer for a local user.  That is undisputed.  Unfiled bugs doesn't
fundamentally change that although if you find any, you can file them and
get the transition to be smoother.

Rahul
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Weird USB interactions?

2014-01-01 Thread Tom Horsley

When I use my AVRISPmkII programmer to fool with the
microcode on my 3D printer motherboard, my mouse and
keyboard apparently get reset. All the settings I made
with xinput disappear and I have to re-apply them.

The ISP is running through the same powered hub as the
keyboard and mouse, maybe something is resetting more
of the USB tree than it should?

Should I report this as a kernel bug? Should I try to
find more information to gather? What is going on here?
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Re: Manipulating journalctl output

2014-01-01 Thread Mateusz Marzantowicz

On 01.01.2014 20:57, Suvayu Ali wrote:

 Now my questions:
 
 1. How can I filter messages printed to the logs from my cron jobs?  I
will try to explain by example:
 
  $ journalctl -ru crond --since=-3d
  -- Logs begin at Sun 2013-11-17 02:48:46 CET, end at Wed 2014-01-01 
 20:31:27 CET. --

# journalctl -u crond.service

Do it as root, and add .service suffix to crond.

Bash completion is your friend here, hitting TAB twice after -u option
will give you units that are recognized.

journalctl is user-aware and show only what's appropriate.



Mateusz Marzantowicz
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Re: Manipulating journalctl output

On Wed, Jan 01, 2014 at 11:52:04PM +0100, Mateusz Marzantowicz wrote:
 On 01.01.2014 20:57, Suvayu Ali wrote:
 
  Now my questions:
  
  1. How can I filter messages printed to the logs from my cron jobs?  I
 will try to explain by example:
  
   $ journalctl -ru crond --since=-3d
   -- Logs begin at Sun 2013-11-17 02:48:46 CET, end at Wed 2014-01-01 
  20:31:27 CET. --
 
 # journalctl -u crond.service
 
 Do it as root, and add .service suffix to crond.
 
 Bash completion is your friend here, hitting TAB twice after -u option
 will give you units that are recognized.
 
 journalctl is user-aware and show only what's appropriate.

Actually, if I'm in the systemd-journal group it is equivalent.  That
said, I get the same output as root.  I use bash-completion, and the
.service is optional when used with -u (as I mentioned in my email).  I
tried with and without the .service.  It works both ways for sendmail,
just not crond.

Cheers,

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Wed, Jan 01, 2014 at 10:50:39PM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
 
 (I have not done any changes to the configuration of the journal, so this
 could be the journal of a normal user (well, perhaps not, in this case it is
 my home web and mail server and it probably produces more journal data than
 a desktop user does))
 
 [root@gw ~]# time journalctl | grep xyz
 ...
 real  25m31.478s
 user  11m2.966s
 sys   2m36.218s
 [root@gw ~]# time grep -r --exclude-dir=journal xyz /var/log
 ...
 real  1m6.362s
 user  0m2.253s
 sys   0m1.201s
 ...
 [root@gw ~]# du -sh --exclude=journal /var/log
 620M  /var/log
 [root@gw ~]# du -sh /var/log/journal
 3.7G  /var/log/journal
 [root@gw ~]#

I had a similarly huge journal (~1.4G).  I had to restrict the size in
journald.conf.  See:

  http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.redhat.fedora.general/440246

Cheers,

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Re: suspend or hibernate

2014-01-01 Thread Richard Vickery

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Ed Greshko ed.gres...@greshko.com wrote:

 On 01/02/14 06:09, Richard Vickery wrote:
  I just called up the gnome-tweak-tool: what's the difference between
 suspend and hibernate? It gives these, among other sleeping actions when
 folding the computer up.
 
  Just curious - hibernate doesn't have a man page.
 

 suspend keeps the system powered on, but in a low power mode.  No
 computing is done but the current working state is kept in memory.  Resume
 from suspend is very (or should be) quick.

 hibernate places memory on disk and the system is completely powered off.


Ah! Thanks! I might find hibernate on my own: why would a user use this
command rather than saving and booting up? and How does it know that to
look for the memory?
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Re: announcement --- planned Yum replacement now ready for user testing

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:33:18PM +0100, Ales Kozumplik wrote:
 Hello,
 
 On behalf of the DNF team I'd like to invite all the interested Fedora users
 in trying out and testing DNF in Fedora 20. DNF is a tool that aims to fully
 replace Yum by Fedora 22. Please check out the blog post for more
 information:
 
 http://dnf.baseurl.org/2013/12/19/dnf-and-fedora-20/
 
 We look forward to hear your feedback and kindly ask you to use bugzilla to
 report any issues found.

I have been using this since F20 release.  I noticed there is no
completion available, unlike yum.  I can probably reuse yum's completion
with dnf by simply `complete -F _yum dnf', but I'm afraid that will be
unaware of the subtle differences between yum and dnf.  Is that a valid
worry, or can I blindly reuse _yum?

Cheers,

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/01/2014 11:30 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

You are again missing the point that when evaluating changes, you can't
do so against a hypothesized change that noone is working on.  You will
have to evaluate it against status quo vs someone willing to do the work
involved.  You are not volunteering to work on what you are proposing so
it wouldn't get done unless someone else buys into your ideas and so far
noone has.


I think you are missing the point. As I do not have the knowledge about 
anaconda nor other install related programs to do the change myself 
(which I would, if I was part of that group and had knowledge of 
Anaconda and related programs) my proposal could be regarded as a RFE to 
improve the handling of mail created by different programs and daemons.


Some regard mail sent to /var/spool/mail/root as lost, my proposal make 
these mails visible to the (chosen) user. This is a good thing. And, as 
it is now, in a new install of F20, these mail will be totally lost, 
they will not even end up in /var/spool/root. Which is a bad thing.


This by no means mean that I am not volunteering, it simply states that 
I do not have the knowledge to do these changes myself, nor am I part of 
the group working with those programs.


Is not one of the reasons for the these mailing lists to encourage 
people to discuss things like this (changes to improve Fedora)?



You haven't considered all the different use cases which
makes it very difficult to make any meaningful decisions during
installation time.


How could adding a user to /etc/aliases create any problems? It just 
tells the system which user should get the mail now sent to root.


The proposed question could (should) be asked when the system is 
restarted for the first time, and the first user is created. No 
implications come to mind.


In a system without users the mail ends up in root mail as now. No 
implications come to mind.


What use cases do I miss? And in what way would these makes it very 
difficult to make any meaningful decisions during installation time. 
Could you give me any examples.



I won't list them but one quick example:  Anaconda
doesn't require you to create a user at installation time. Instead you
can do so during initial-setup time and that user may not be a local
user at all.


u...@remote.host added to /etc/aliases is also valid. Not adding 
anything to /etc/aliases is also valid (mail ends up in 
/var/spool/mail/root as before). Again, no implications come to mind.



The current design of the installer is to do the minimum
needed during installation time and your proposal doesn't fit with that
model either.


I have clarified the proposal above. The question about /etc/aliases is 
supposed to be asked when you create the first user of the system. If 
you chose not to use /etc/aliases, the mail ends up in root mail as 
before. It fits the current model without problems.



  As always that depends on the use case (see at the end)

I said common use cases.  If you have to fallback to using grep, so be
it but what journalctl offers is a supset of what traditional syslog
daemons offer for a local user.  That is undisputed.


A (very) common use case is that you want to find something in the log. 
The first thing you do then is 'grep /var/log/applicable_log_file'. Yes 
journalctl has options for some things that you use grep for when 
looking at the /var/log files, but for many use cases you still need to 
use grep (and as seen in my earlier post, it can take extremely long 
time grepping output from journalctl when the journal is big).


If you know a better way to search for a random text segment in the logs 
(using journalctl) than using grep, please let me know.



Unfiled bugs
doesn't fundamentally change that although if you find any, you can file
them and get the transition to be smoother.


Do you regard the sluggish journal I have as a bug? I will gladly file a 
bug if you think so.


Lars
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 6:28 PM, Lars E. Pettersson  wrote:


  my proposal could be regarded as a RFE to improve the handling of mail
 created by different programs and daemons.


No.  Not unless it is actually filed in bugzilla with the details.  Filing
a RFE requires no prior knowledge other than how to file it which you
already have.

 How could adding a user to /etc/aliases create any problems? It just
tells the system   which user should get the mail now sent to root.

 When no users are created by the installer, there is nothing to add to
/etc/aliases and as I noted before, user creation is an optional step
within the installer.  I don't see anything in your proposal that addresses
this.

 Do you regard the sluggish journal I have as a bug? I will gladly file a
bug if you think so.

You don't need my approval and what I think is irrelevant since I am not
involved in journald development but for the record, all performance issues
are bugs from my perspective and I would assume journald developers would
agree with that

Rahul
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Re: announcement --- planned Yum replacement now ready for user testing

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 6:27 PM, Suvayu Ali  wrote:

 I have been using this since F20 release.  I noticed there is no
 completion available, unlike yum.  I can probably reuse yum's completion
 with dnf by simply `complete -F _yum dnf', but I'm afraid that will be
 unaware of the subtle differences between yum and dnf.  Is that a valid
 worry, or can I blindly reuse _yum?


Ideally, you should file it as an RFE in bugzilla.  Although dnf and yum
are broadly compatible, there are subtle differences that will trip you up
otherwise.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 01:05 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

  my proposal could be regarded as a RFE to improve the handling of
mail created by different programs and daemons.

No.  Not unless it is actually filed in bugzilla with the details.
Filing a RFE requires no prior knowledge other than how to file it which
you already have.


So what do we have these mailing list for if we are not supposed to 
discuss ways to better Fedora? Rahul, I simply do not understand you on 
this issue.



  How could adding a user to /etc/aliases create any problems? It just
tells the system   which user should get the mail now sent to root.

  When no users are created by the installer, there is nothing to add to
/etc/aliases and as I noted before, user creation is an optional step
within the installer.  I don't see anything in your proposal that
addresses this.


As I mentioned before, /etc/aliases will in that case be intact and mail 
will be sent to root, just as it has been done for years.


Lars
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 12:28 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

On 01/01/2014 11:30 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

...

Unfiled bugs
doesn't fundamentally change that although if you find any, you can file
them and get the transition to be smoother.


Do you regard the sluggish journal I have as a bug? I will gladly file a
bug if you think so.


1047719

Lars
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 01:12 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

On 01/02/2014 01:05 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

...

  When no users are created by the installer, there is nothing to add to
/etc/aliases and as I noted before, user creation is an optional step
within the installer.  I don't see anything in your proposal that
addresses this.


As I mentioned before, /etc/aliases will in that case be intact and mail
will be sent to root, just as it has been done for years.


Let me rephrase that.

* The question should be in that part were you create the first user on 
the system (and after the user creating step, disregarding if you have 
added a user or not)

* You can chose
- keep /etc/aliases as is (this is how it has been for years)
- add the newly created user (if you added one)
- add a remote user or users (u...@somewhere.else)
- or add a combination of local user and remote user(s)

If you do an install where this question (add a new user) does not 
appear, /etc/aliases will be intact and mail will be sent to root, just 
as it has been done for years. If you do an even more esoteric install, 
you probably know how to change /etc/aliases yourself, and no action 
will be taken.


Hope this made it a bit more clearer.

Lars
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 7:48 PM, Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se wrote:

 Let me rephrase that.

 * The question should be in that part were you create the first user on
 the system (and after the user creating step, disregarding if you have
 added a user or not)
 * You can chose
 - keep /etc/aliases as is (this is how it has been for years)
 - add the newly created user (if you added one)
 - add a remote user or users (u...@somewhere.else)
 - or add a combination of local user and remote user(s)


I don't see the installer developers will agree to this proposal.  If you
want this amount of control, you are better off using kickstart IMO but
feel free to file it if you want to.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se wrote:


 So what do we have these mailing list for if we are not supposed to
 discuss ways to better Fedora? Rahul, I simply do not understand you on
 this issue.


This list is for community support for end users.

 As I mentioned before, /etc/aliases will in that case be intact and mail
will be sent to root, just as it has been done for years.

So in the end you will be adding a complex UI for a optional edge use
case.  None of this will become part of the default workflow.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/01/2014 04:12 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

On 01/02/2014 01:05 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

  my proposal could be regarded as a RFE to improve the handling of
mail created by different programs and daemons.

No.  Not unless it is actually filed in bugzilla with the details.
Filing a RFE requires no prior knowledge other than how to file it which
you already have.


So what do we have these mailing list for if we are not supposed to
discuss ways to better Fedora? Rahul, I simply do not understand you on
this issue.


ICBW, but I think he means that while we can work out exactly what 
enhancement is needed and what's just re-inventing the wheel, nothing is 
going to get done unless somebody files the appropriate RFE.

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 01:51 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

I don't see the installer developers will agree to this proposal.  If
you want this amount of control, you are better off using kickstart IMO
but feel free to file it if you want to.


The proposal is intended to help the non technical users of Fedora, and 
I do not see them using kickstart, so that is not a solution.


Lars
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 02:01 AM, Joe Zeff wrote:

ICBW, but I think he means that while we can work out exactly what
enhancement is needed and what's just re-inventing the wheel, nothing is
going to get done unless somebody files the appropriate RFE.


Yes, and at the moment we are in the work out phase. Next step is of 
course a RFE.


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Re: GNOME questions on fc20

2014-01-01 Thread Alex

Hi,

 show date only shows month and day, not year. There doesn't appear
 to be a date extension that does this.

 It's 2014. That should hold you for a year. :-)

Oops, lol. I meant it only displayed day of week and time. After using
the gsettings suggestion, it now display the full date properly.

Thanks,
Alex
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Lars E. Pettersson  wrote:


 The proposal is intended to help the non technical users of Fedora, and I
 do not see them using kickstart, so that is not a solution.


Yes but non technical users wouldn't care to navigate the UI you are
proposing either.   The entire proposal only satisfies a very small small
niche for users receiving root mail and want to control exactly how they
get it during installation itself.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

2014-01-01 Thread Matthew Miller

On Wed, Jan 01, 2014 at 10:50:39PM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
 He states that his journal says Dec 30 04:36:05 hostname
 rsnapshot[8265]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: ERROR: /usr/bin/rsnapshot
 daily: completed, but with some errors but where to find that
 error? In F19 these errors would have been forwarded to the mail
 spool via /etc/aliases. Now it is lost.

rsnapshot should be patched to log those. In the meantime, though, the
package could have a dpenedency on an MTA.

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 02:00 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

  As I mentioned before, /etc/aliases will in that case be intact and
mail will be sent to root, just as it has been done for years.

So in the end you will be adding a complex UI for a optional edge use
case.


edge use case? I have to strongly disagree. We have mail from 
different daemons etc that ends up in mail to root. The normal non 
technical user does not see this mail, and may even by totally unaware 
of it. This mail should be sent to the non technical user in an easy way.


One easy way to make the non technical user aware of this, and to set up 
the system so that he/she receives this mail, is my proposal.


The technical user already knows all this and makes the changes needed 
manually after installing Fedora. So this proposal is, again, to make 
the system easier to use for a normal non technical user.


 None of this will become part of the default workflow.

Sorry. I do not follow you here. I am not sure what you mean.

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 02:17 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Yes but non technical users wouldn't care to navigate the UI you are
proposing either.   The entire proposal only satisfies a very small
small niche for users receiving root mail and want to control exactly
how they get it during installation itself.


Why would they not care? The UI will make them aware of something they 
probably is not aware of. I can not see that lost emails is a good 
thing. Better to make the user aware of that that mail exist, and make 
it easy for them to receive it.


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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Lars E. Pettersson  wrote:


 edge use case? I have to strongly disagree. We have mail from different
 daemons etc that ends up in mail to root. The normal non technical user
 does not see this mail, and may even by totally unaware of it. This mail
 should be sent to the non technical user in an easy way.


Why?  Non technical users don't care about daemons.  They are not expected
to baby sit daemons or diagnose problems with them.   What specifically did
you expect is important enough in there?  Show me an example

 None of this will become part of the default workflow.

 Sorry. I do not follow you here. I am not sure what you mean.


The default workflow of the installer does not mandate creating a non root
user

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/01/2014 05:31 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

The default workflow of the installer does not mandate creating a non
root user


Unless things have changed since the last time I installed Fedora, 
firstboot is set to run the first time you boot after the installation, 
and that's where you're prompted to create your first non-root user.

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

2014-01-01 Thread Tom Horsley

On Wed, 1 Jan 2014 20:31:23 -0500
Rahul Sundaram wrote:

 The default workflow of the installer does not mandate creating a non root
 user

Um... Unless you want to be able to login after the install :-).
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI

Joe Zeff wrote:

Unless things have changed since the last time I installed Fedora,
firstboot is set to run the first time you boot after the installation, and
that's where you're prompted to create your first non-root user

I don't know when the last time you checked but firstboot is not used in
Fedora anymore.

Tom Horsley  wrote:


 Um... Unless you want to be able to login after the install :-).


You can login just fine without having a local user on the system.  c.f
Enterprise Login support in GNOME.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On 01/02/2014 02:31 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Why? Non technical users don't care about daemons. They are not
expected to baby sit daemons or diagnose problems with them. What
specifically did you expect is important enough in there? Show me an
example

Why? For the same reason we have notifications.

OK, one example:

A user might install yum-cron to update the system. It could be nice to
know about errors leading to yum not updating the system.

At the moment I get the following from my yum-cron (due to this yum is
not updating):

/etc/cron.hourly/0yum-hourly.cron:

Traceback (most recent call last):
[ ... a lot of trace lines removed ...]
yum.Errors.NoMoreMirrorsRepoError: failure: repodata/repomd.xml from
fedora-chromium-stable: [Errno 256] No more mirrors to try.
http://repos.fedorapeople.org/repos/spot/chromium-stable/fedora-20/x86_64/repodata/repomd.xml:
[Errno 14] HTTP Error 404 - Not Found

None of this will become part of the default workflow.

Sorry. I do not follow you here. I am not sure what you mean.

The default workflow of the installer does not mandate creating a non
root user

Yes. And in my proposal, described earlier, that use case is taken care
of (either everything will be as it has been for years, i.e.
/etc/aliases is intact and the mail end up in mail to root, or you can
chose to send it to a remote user)

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

 Why? For the same reason we have notifications.


Notifications aren't the same UI as email.  Even a cursory guide on UI
would tell you that.



 OK, one example:

 A user might install yum-cron to update the system


Bad example. Non technical users don't install yum-cron.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/01/2014 05:47 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:


I don't know when the last time you checked but firstboot is not used in
Fedora anymore.


The last time I had to do a clean install was to clean up some major 
problems in F 16 on my laptop.  However, I just checked, and 
firstboot.19.2-1.fc19.i686 is currently installed on my desktop, running 
Fedora 19.  Unless it was taken out of F 20, I don't understand why the 
copy on my machine is fc19.

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Re: suspend or hibernate

2014-01-01 Thread poma

On 01.01.2014 23:09, Richard Vickery wrote:

 Just curious - hibernate doesn't have a man page.

man 5 systemd-sleep.conf

/usr/share/doc/kernel-doc-3.12.5/Documentation/power/states.txt
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/power/states.txt

suspend to both aka hybrid-sleep(systemd).
http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=62c552ccc3eda1198632a4f344aa32623d226bab


poma


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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

 The last time I had to do a clean install was to clean up some major
 problems in F 16 on my laptop.  However, I just checked, and
 firstboot.19.2-1.fc19.i686 is currently installed on my desktop, running
 Fedora 19.  Unless it was taken out of F 20, I don't understand why the
 copy on my machine is fc19.


Initial setup replaced firstboot in Fedora 19 and user creation is an
optional step.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 02:55 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Notifications aren't the same UI as email.  Even a cursory guide on UI
would tell you that.


We have notifications to notify the user. The mail sent to root is (in 
most cases) to notify the user. The UI differ, but it is used, in this 
context, for more or less the same thing, notifying the user.



OK, one example:

A user might install yum-cron to update the system


Bad example. Non technical users don't install yum-cron.


Why not? The might...

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Lars E. Pettersson  wrote:


 We have notifications to notify the user. The mail sent to root is (in
 most cases) to notify the user. The UI differ, but it is used, in this
 context, for more or less the same thing, notifying the user.


Sure but context in which they are used are very different.  If you really
want to know the difference in detail,  I recommend you get a good UI
book.  My suggestion would be Don't make me think!  by Steve Krug.


 Bad example. Non technical users don't install yum-cron.


 Why not? The might...


In that case, I wouldn't consider them non technical users.  Like I said,
your notion of what non technical users seems pretty skewed.   Non
technical users don't care about automated updates on the command line and
certainly don't try to resolve failures in third party repos.

Rahul
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Re: suspend or hibernate

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 6:22 PM, Richard Vickery



 Ah! Thanks! I might find hibernate on my own: why would a user use this
 command rather than saving and booting up? and How does it know that to
 look for the memory?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernation_%28computing%29

Note however that Linux support for this is pretty limited/ buggy and I
would recommend you don't do it.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 03:08 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Sure but context in which they are used are very different.  If you
really want to know the difference in detail,  I recommend you get a
good UI book.  My suggestion would be Don't make me think!  by Steve
Krug.


Rahul, I am not talking about the UI, I am talking about the information 
you get from the two systems, and what that content tells the user. The 
UI is totally irrelevant in this case.



In that case, I wouldn't consider them non technical users.  Like I
said, your notion of what non technical users seems pretty skewed.   Non
technical users don't care about automated updates on the command line
and certainly don't try to resolve failures in third party repos.


Even non-technical user do strange things, so I would say that your 
notion of what non technical users do is pretty skewed.


If they do not care about problems with updates etc, then why do we have 
notifications? They serve, in this context, the same purpose, informing 
the user about problems with the system.


Lars
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/01/2014 06:03 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

Initial setup replaced firstboot in Fedora 19 and user creation is an
optional step.


OK, but there are still two things this doesn't cover.  First, I used 
fedup to go from F17 to F19, meaning that firstboot wasn't needed. 
Second, if F19 doesn't use firstboot, why is my installed copy listed as 
being fc19?  Why did they put out a new version if it isn't even being used?

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:


 Rahul, I am not talking about the UI, I am talking about the information
 you get from the two systems, and what that content tells the user. The UI
 is totally irrelevant in this case.


 UI always matters especially when we are talking about non technical
users.  A typical non technical user would click on updates when the DE
notifies them and nothing more complicated than that.

 Even non-technical user do strange things, so I would say that your
notion of what non   technical users do is pretty skewed.

It is based on real life experiences dealing with them on a regular basis
and development of distribution cannot be based on supporting strange
choices from users.  You cannot expect non technical users to do anything
about third party repository failures.  Color me unconvinced by your
example.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

2014-01-01 Thread Tom Horsley

On Thu, 02 Jan 2014 03:14:57 +0100
Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

 Even non-technical user do strange things, so I would say that your 
 notion of what non technical users do is pretty skewed.

I would say there is no such thing as typical, non-technical,
technical, etc. users. They are all fictional constructs imagined
by someone looking for an excuse to make some change they want made.
It is really easy to justify a change when you can conjure up
millions of imaginary users in support of it.

The only actual user I know and understand is me.

That is true for everyone else as well, no matter how much they
deny it.
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 9:17 PM, Joe Zeff j...@zeff.us wrote:


 OK, but there are still two things this doesn't cover.  First, I used
 fedup to go from F17 to F19, meaning that firstboot wasn't needed.


Everything that is installed is updated by Fedup.  Fedup doesn't
automatically remove any packages.yum distro-sync and yum list extras
can cover that.

Second, if F19 doesn't use firstboot, why is my installed copy listed as
 being fc19?  Why did they put out a new version if it isn't even being used?


The default UI is provided by initial setup/ GNOME initial setup depending
on which desktop environment you use.  firstboot had some legacy code that
hasn't transitioned over completely to the new model when I checked last
but you should be able to safely remove it from your system.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

Hi


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Tom Horsley  wrote:

 The only actual user I know and understand is me.

 That is true for everyone else as well, no matter how much they
 deny it.


Nah.  People do have various ways of finding out what users do and need -
customer support tickets,  surveys,  bug reports, UI studies etc.   There
are decades of UI research that has conclusive evidence on what type of
things users generally prefer.  It is not all subjective as you claim
although it is not a uncommon myth.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 03:20 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

  UI always matters especially when we are talking about non technical
users.  A typical non technical user would click on updates when the DE
notifies them and nothing more complicated than that.


Again. A notification notifies the user, a mail notifies the user. I.e. 
two different ways of notifying the user. The UI is totally irrelevant 
in this case. The relevant part is the text message presented to the 
user. This text message can come from a notification popping up on the 
screen, or from a a mail, the UI does not matter at all.



It is based on real life experiences dealing with them on a regular
basis and development of distribution cannot be based on supporting
strange choices from users.


So you think it is better that these mails, sent to root, is lost, 
i.e. never delivered to the user? Why?



You cannot expect non technical users to do
anything about third party repository failures.  Color me unconvinced by
your example.


You missed the point. The point of the example was not fixing third 
party repository failures. The point was that the user was informed 
about an error that stopped yum from working.


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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Thu, Jan 02, 2014 at 02:25:01AM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
 On 01/02/2014 02:17 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
 Yes but non technical users wouldn't care to navigate the UI you are
 proposing either.   The entire proposal only satisfies a very small
 small niche for users receiving root mail and want to control exactly
 how they get it during installation itself.
 
 Why would they not care? The UI will make them aware of something they
 probably is not aware of. I can not see that lost emails is a good thing.
 Better to make the user aware of that that mail exist, and make it easy for
 them to receive it.

I'm sorry but I do not see the reasoning behind the assumption:
non-technical implies we need to protect them from good practice.
What does removing an MTA (IOW system mail) serve?  If the argument is
saving resources, then one could counter argue a non-technical user is
less likely to care about saving system resources.

More to the point, I find it counter productive to _remove_ important
debugging resources/tools irrespective of the technical proficiency of
the user of the system.  I outlined my issue in this post:

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2013-December/36.html

Anyone care to comment on this?

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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

HI


On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:

 Again. A notification notifies the user, a mail notifies the user. I.e.
 two different ways of notifying the user. The UI is totally irrelevant in
 this case.


We have different perspectives on what consitutes non technical users,
whether UI matters or not and your proposed solution seems like a pretty
complicated thing to do within an installer and your example is entirely
unconvincing to me. Repeating yourself isn't going to convince me.  Sorry.
I will stop at this point since we are unlikely to agree and it doesn't
matter anyway since the change is already done.

Rahul
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix

On Wed, Jan 01, 2014 at 08:19:50PM -0500, Matthew Miller wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 01, 2014 at 10:50:39PM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
  He states that his journal says Dec 30 04:36:05 hostname
  rsnapshot[8265]: /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: ERROR: /usr/bin/rsnapshot
  daily: completed, but with some errors but where to find that
  error? In F19 these errors would have been forwarded to the mail
  spool via /etc/aliases. Now it is lost.
 
 rsnapshot should be patched to log those. In the meantime, though, the
 package could have a dpenedency on an MTA.

Actually rsnapshot has a separate logfile.  What you see there
traditionally goes to /var/log/messages (through syslog I think); and
the rsnapshot log (in my case /var/log/rsnapshot) looks like this:

[30/Dec/2013:04:30:02] /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: started
[30/Dec/2013:04:30:02] echo 8237  /var/run/rsnapshot.pid
[30/Dec/2013:04:30:02] /bin/rm -rf /backup/daily.6/
[30/Dec/2013:04:30:30] mv /backup/daily.5/ /backup/daily.6/
[30/Dec/2013:04:30:30] mv /backup/daily.4/ /backup/daily.5/
[30/Dec/2013:04:30:30] mv /backup/daily.3/ /backup/daily.4/
[30/Dec/2013:04:30:30] mv /backup/daily.2/ /backup/daily.3/
[30/Dec/2013:04:30:30] mv /backup/daily.1/ /backup/daily.2/
[30/Dec/2013:04:30:30] /bin/cp -al /backup/daily.0 /backup/daily.1
[30/Dec/2013:04:31:35] /usr/bin/rsync -aHFr --delete --numeric-ids --relative 
--delete-excluded --exclude-from=/etc/rsnapshot-exclude /home/user 
/backup/daily.0/local/
[30/Dec/2013:04:31:47] /usr/bin/rsync -aHFr --delete --numeric-ids --relative 
--delete-excluded --exclude-from=/etc/rsnapshot-exclude /etc 
/backup/daily.0/local/
[30/Dec/2013:04:31:50] /usr/bin/rsync -aHFr --delete --numeric-ids --relative 
--delete-excluded --exclude-from=/etc/rsnapshot-exclude --rsh=/usr/bin/ssh 
user@host:/home/user /backup/daily.0/host/
[30/Dec/2013:04:33:58] /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: ERROR: /usr/bin/rsync returned 
255 while processing user@host:/home/user/
[30/Dec/2013:04:33:58] /usr/bin/rsync -aHFr --delete --numeric-ids --relative 
--delete-excluded --exclude-from=/etc/rsnapshot-exclude --rsh=/usr/bin/ssh 
user@host:/etc /backup/daily.0/host/
[30/Dec/2013:04:36:05] /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: ERROR: /usr/bin/rsync returned 
255 while processing user@host:/etc/
[30/Dec/2013:04:36:05] touch /backup/daily.0/
[30/Dec/2013:04:36:05] rm -f /var/run/rsnapshot.pid
[30/Dec/2013:04:36:05] /usr/bin/rsnapshot daily: ERROR: /usr/bin/rsnapshot 
daily: completed, but with some errors

As you can see the two lines in /var/log/messages are just the first and
last lines of the more detailed version.

Cheers,

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Re: Manipulating journalctl output

2014-01-01 Thread Tom H

On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote:

 2. I would like to filter logs that typically go into /var/log/secure
(or other similar files); how do I do that?

SYSLOG_FACILITY=authpriv
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Re: Reverse E-Mail Blockage.....

2014-01-01 Thread poma

On 28.12.2013 06:06, Eddie G. O'Connor Jr. wrote:
 Hello you Ferdorans! (FedorIANS?...) I have a question,.nowwe 
 all know that there's ways to block unwanted email from your system 
 using Message Filters, and they work by blocking a certain domain or 
 email address and prevent them from hitting your Inbox, I would like to 
 know if anyone knows of a way to filter your messages in a sort of 
 reverse order.in other words instead of me telling the Mail Filter 
 Rule: Block anything with the email address of (ABC@123) I would like it 
 to be Allow everything from (123@ABC) and block Everything Else...how 
 would one go about doing this using Fedora 20 and Thunderbird? Any help 
 would be greatly appreciated

Hello LOLian! :)

For someone who uses Gmail, a whitelist can be done like this:
- Settings
 - Filters
  - Create a new filter
From: felix@thecat OR winnie@thepooh OR rocky@andbullwinkle
- Create filter with this search
 - Never send it to Spam
  - Create filter
Done.

Advanced search operators
https://support.google.com/mail/answer/7190?hl=en


poma


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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On 01/02/2014 03:39 AM, Suvayu Ali wrote:

I'm sorry but I do not see the reasoning behind the assumption:
non-technical implies we need to protect them from good practice.


Perhaps a bad term to use on my part. New Linux user would perhaps be 
better. The idea was to make it easier for them to discover problems 
with their system. As the MTA has been removed, they will potentially 
miss important information.



What does removing an MTA (IOW system mail) serve?  If the argument is
saving resources, then one could counter argue a non-technical user is
less likely to care about saving system resources.


With current day computers an MTA for local delivery is no problem at 
all. They have all been locked down for quite a long time (only 
accepting mail from 127.0.0.1) so they have no big security risk either.


Lennart Poettring mentioned the following reasons (07/22/2013 06:36 PM, 
Re: F20 System Wide Change: No Default Sendmail)


since the current way it is set up by default it just eats up messages
silently, with not indication of error and no useful tools installed to
actually get the messages out of it again.

I think, based on other writings, that he means that mail is eaten up by 
being delivered to /var/spool/mail/root where the user can not read it. 
With no useful tool he means that we have no mail client that can read 
spool mail.


Spool mail can be read by mutt, Thunderbird, and probably other mail 
clients. What is needed is an easy way to get the mail to a suitable 
user. That is where my proposal comes in.


So, in my opinion, removing a local delivery MTA was wrong. It should be 
added again, and something in the line of my proposal should be added so 
that root mail is sent to a suitable user.


Lars
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Re: Manipulating journalctl output

2014-01-01 Thread Tom H

On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 3:00 AM, Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 7:57 PM, Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 2. I would like to filter logs that typically go into /var/log/secure
(or other similar files); how do I do that?

 SYSLOG_FACILITY=authpriv

Sorry. Just thought that I'd try it and it turms out that it takes the
facility as a number not as a name, so SYSLOG_FACILITY=10.
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systemd-journald, was: Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On Jan 1, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se wrote:

 On 01/01/2014 10:19 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
 If you want to find out what journalctl can support, look at the man
 page. If you have suggestions for improvements, post it in Bugzilla like
 I did yesterday.
 
 OK, I thought you meant that you knew an option that did it pixel perfect. 
 Perhaps I misunderstood you.
 
 Bugzilla 1047700

rsyslog pulls data directly from journal files, so the source data is 
identical. What's different is how journalctl displays it compared to the 
message file rsyslog produces from the same journal file. I think this might be 
more a feature request of rsyslog than systemd, but if you're going to ask two 
projects to somehow negotiate and coordinate on producing an identical 
formatting of the journal file, I think it won't go anywhere. If you prefer the 
formatting of rsyslog then use that. If you prefer the formatting of journalctl 
use that, it's already available anyway and even has advantages to help you 
parse it to get what you're looking for.

I think this is the response you're likely to get if you get one at all:
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-July/185783.html


 What improvements? Is it possible to get it a pixel perfect match using 
 options?


There are a lot. 

The journal is non-optional in systemd, it's available from very early boot 
unlike syslog so you'll find debugging boot problems actually possible rather 
than through inference. With some boot options it can produce rather prolific 
output to console, and if this is a VM you can get all of this information from 
the 1st nanosecond of boot via virsh console.

journalctl -b to get only the current boot messages, which you can't do with 
/var/log/messages which dumps every boot into the same file until it get 
rotated.

Timestamps are UTC and converted  by default with the client to local time, and 
there's other handling possible to make conversions easy, including outputting 
monotonically. You can also reformat as JSON on the fly, it does not affect the 
journal file itself.

journalctl can be used to manipulate the logs on any computer. You don't need 
systemd to use journalctl. And you can merge multiple journals, including 
remote ones, to show their entries interleaved.

You can use -p to filter by priority, 0 is emergency messages only, 7 is debug 
level.

It detects corruption of the journal files, and if detected warns, still reads 
it but won't write to it anymore. Instead it creates a new journal file to 
write to. Multiple journal files are read from as needed, you don't need to 
state which file to read from.

Good examples from the megathread on devel@ some months ago.
https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-July/185413.html

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-July/185502.html

https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2013-July/185782.html




Chris Murphy
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On Jan 1, 2014, at 6:17 PM, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote:

 HI
 
 
 On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Lars E. Pettersson  wrote:
 
 The proposal is intended to help the non technical users of Fedora, and I do 
 not see them using kickstart, so that is not a solution.
 
 Yes but non technical users wouldn't care to navigate the UI you are 
 proposing either.   The entire proposal only satisfies a very small small 
 niche for users receiving root mail and want to control exactly how they get 
 it during installation itself.  

Why put a feature in the GUI installer to add a user to /etc/aliases for 
getting system mail messages when there isn't an MTA? Since the MTA will need 
to be installed, edit /etc/aliases at that time? This seems to add complexity 
for minimal value.

The installer does indeed already have a massive pile of options that many 
non-technical users don't care to navigate. It's even so much that technical 
users who QA the installer don't even have the time to go through all of the 
permutations to thoroughly test it.

I suggest if you're going to ask the installer team for features that you at 
least offer to write patches, but I think it's not very likely to be exposed in 
GUI, to me it sounds like an edge case request.


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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix


On Jan 1, 2014, at 7:39 PM, Suvayu Ali fatkasuvayu+li...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 More to the point, I find it counter productive to _remove_ important
 debugging resources/tools irrespective of the technical proficiency of
 the user of the system.

I switched to journalctl when it first appeared as non-persistent logging, by 
creating /var/log/journal to make it persistent, and disabled rsyslog. I'm not 
a particularly technical user, I prefer the parsing options in the journal 
rather than having to look at different files or even different commands.

rsyslog uses the same journal file journalctl does. The only difference is some 
differences in the formatting. The same exact information is available with 
both, although you'll find rsyslog drop some things it doesn't care about that 
will be in journalctl. The other thing is that the journal is available 
straight way, even if you get dropped to a dracut shell. It's available way 
sooner than rsyslog was, and the journal is integral to systemctl status 
messages. So it's simply a better debugging tool.

But if you like messages output better, you're exactly one command from 
installing it. I don't see what the big deal is.

 I outlined my issue in this post:
 
 https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2013-December/36.html
 
 Anyone care to comment on this?
 

I'm a regular user. I don't use rsyslog's /var/log/message, I disable it always 
for some number of releases now.


Chris Murphy
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Re: F20 - Unintended consequences of no default MTA - How best to fix