Re: Latest systemd news
On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 03:04:18PM -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote: More bloat to fail, it may come as a shock, but there are computers running Linux and not network connected at all (as in no NIC devices). Bloat for no benefit. This seems to be based around a misconception. Like most systemd features, the network components of systemd are provided by separate daemons and libraries and can easily be subpackaged if there is a use case where it's meaningful. If you have such a use case *in Fedora*, please share it (an RFE bugzilla entry is likely to be the most helpful). -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com said: Making the rounds of various technical mailing lists yesterday, with a subject that's typically a variation of Just for yucks, and giggles is a link to a commit to systemd's git, adding DNS caching to systemd; in one, huge 857 line glop. Here's its entire commit message: resolved: add DNS cache. Yet more unreasonable scope creep for the systemd project, and this time reinventing the wheel for no good reason. There are already perfectly good resolver libraries, caches, etc.; there is no good reason for systemd to grow its own. More bloat to fail, it may come as a shock, but there are computers running Linux and not network connected at all (as in no NIC devices). Bloat for no benefit. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Joe Zeff wrote: On 11/15/2014 08:27 AM, Tom Horsley wrote: I've always called systemd the world's fist computer fungus - it wants to grow over everything. Resistance is futile! Your functionality will be assimilated. Or in this case approximated. -- Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the machinations of the wicked. - from Slashdot -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 1 December 2014 at 16:27, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: My question was What part(s) of the systemd suite has not been adopted. Note the not part. Yes. I understood that fine. I was pointing out which parts have been adopted so you can count the rest as not adopted. There are several different components which haven't been adopted nor even proposed because they are simply not yet ready or not general purpose enough to be used by default. when they are actually proposed, a discussion about them would be warranted. I.e. it might very well be adopted and therefor a discussion about it is in order. Why wait for the inevitable? That makes no sense. You don't discuss developmental features of upstream projects in a users list. This is not about a test or development release. It is about new functionality finding its way into systemd Precisely why it is even more offtopic to discuss them here. This list is meant for helping users on general releases of Fedora. Any features that are not part of the general releases of Fedora is not suitable for discussion here. We wrote up the list guidelines for a reason. Please follow them. Where should users be discussing things that may negatively impact them? On the systemd list they will get shouted down by systemd cheerleaders, on the devel list they will get told the decision has already been made and they should go to the systemd list. -- imalone http://ibmalone.blogspot.co.uk -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/14 22:32, Rahul Sundaram wrote: By that account why would rawhide or test releases be considered offtopic? How about development kernel or glibc features? The test list is about test releases of Fedora. The devel list is for the development releases of Fedora (rawhide). All as I mentioned before... But I can not see that discussing Fedora users view on new features of systemd on the systemd mailing lists will lead to any good... Why wouldn't it? That list is specific for systemd, not Fedora and the Fedora users view on systemd. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/02/14 01:00, Rahul Sundaram wrote: I would suggest that the thread is off the rails long time back and not enforcing the list guidelines and keeping the list on topic leads to us, No, it is not Off the rails. That you find the issue unimportant does not mean that others have the same view. It is also quite easy to ignore threads on subjects that you have no interest in, that could be a solution for those not interested in the subject of this thread. The discussion is about a component already in use in Fedora, systemd, and new features of it. How can this not be on-topic here? Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/02/14 02:45, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Well, it was originally meant to be default in Fedora 14 and there were many discussions about it. it is been years since that point. Perhaps people didn't pay attention to it and didn't realize it but it wasn't snuck in when people weren't looking. There were literally hundreds of mails on the subject before it become default. Well, to be frank, it was sold to solve the issue of start up time of computers. It has then evolved to almost transfer the GNU/Linux concept to systemd/Linux. And this is something that has to be addressed, even on on a users list. Users use Fedora too, you know :) and might have usable (users) views on the subject. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better tools needed - Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/02/2014 12:42 AM, Joe Zeff wrote: On 12/01/2014 05:17 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: Then there was good old 'chkconfig' that produced a nice tablular report of services that can be controlled. I have yet to find anything close to this with systemd. systemctl list-unit-files Lists 315 services, most that I can't control. And does it no longer matter if you are in single user, multiuser, etc mode on how the services run? -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 07:00:39PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote: community assistance, encouragement, and advice — not to mention the Friends foundation — that's a different story. I would suggest that the thread is off the rails long time back and not enforcing the list guidelines and keeping the list on topic leads to us, It started with an objectively silly and inflammatory post but had mostly died down on its own. *sigh* -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
please stop this thread; constructive discussion can take place in a new one [was Re: Latest systemd news]
On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 09:15:45PM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: Well, if they are not yet ready or not general purpose enough to be used by default they should not be adopted. We have enough of not yet ready products and does not need any more. But what happens when they are ready? Will they be part of Fedora then? Lars, we have a change control process for precisely this reason. The systemd developers and packagers in Fedora are (mostly) conscientious about going through it. I have been on the RedHat/Fedora lists since about 1996 and seen the So, you should know this. Rahul, precisely where in the guidelines does it say that it is, on this list, prohibited to discuss new functionality in a package used by Fedora, functionality that with huge probability will make into Fedora? And if it is prohibited here, where should it be discussed (out of the Fedora mailing lists)? Discussing it in a useful way is fine. Waking up this troll thread (and, it _was_ a troll thread -- there's really no question!) with general unease does not seem constructive either. Let's stop this thread. New discussion about specific functionality actually intended to discuss, share, and learn rather than inflame is fine, but since this *is* a topic which attracts all manner of strong feelings, please take *extra* care in any such new thread. Thanks. -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 3:11 AM, Ian Malone wrote: Where should users be discussing things that may negatively impact them? That is too broad. In this case, we are talking about features not included within Fedora. So the right place is upstream Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 3:19 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: The discussion is about a component already in use in Fedora, systemd, and new features of it. How can this not be on-topic here? You keep asking the same question that was answered before. Users list is for discussing features that are shipped in Fedora general release. Not for things not included in Fedora or only included in Rawhide or test releases. I guess instead of pretending that this question was unanswered, we are going to just disagree. Well, to be frank, it was sold to solve the issue of start up time of computer To be frank, it was never sold as only a solution for that. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/02/14 15:25, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Users list is for discussing features that are shipped in Fedora general release. systemd IS a part of Fedora general release. Well, to be frank, it was sold to solve the issue of start up time of computer To be frank, it was never sold as only a solution for that. It was, in the beginning. It then started to take over more and more other functions. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better tools needed - Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 6:09 AM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: systemctl list-unit-files Lists 315 services, most that I can't control. And does it no longer matter if you are in single user, multiuser, etc mode on how the services run? As I pointed out before, you *can* control them. There are no modes or runlevels in systemd. The functional equivalent is a target. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Systemd#How_do_I_change_the_target_.28runlevel.29_.3F If you want to have a limited view of just services, then systemctl list-units -t service or --type=service. That lists about 75 services in my laptop. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: systemd IS a part of Fedora general release. Yes but not the feature that was being discussed. It was, in the beginning. It then started to take over more and more other functions. Not true. It was never sold as only about fast startup. fast startup was a side benefit. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:40:53AM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 12/02/14 02:45, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Well, it was originally meant to be default in Fedora 14 and there were many discussions about it. it is been years since that point. Perhaps people didn't pay attention to it and didn't realize it but it wasn't snuck in when people weren't looking. There were literally hundreds of mails on the subject before it become default. Well, to be frank, it was sold to solve the issue of start up time of computers. It has then evolved to almost transfer the GNU/Linux concept to systemd/Linux. And this is something that has to be addressed, even on on a users list. Users use Fedora too, you know :) and might have usable (users) views on the subject. This is incorrect. The actual problems systemd was meant to solve include but are not limited to: * Properly sorting dependencies of services * Simplifying startup configuration * Allowing arbitrary levels of startup * Allowing sysadmins more control over resource utilization The fact that the parallelization in systemd permits faster startup time was a side benefit. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: please stop this thread; constructive discussion can take place in a new one [was Re: Latest systemd news]
On 12/02/14 13:23, Matthew Miller wrote: But what happens when they are ready? Will they be part of Fedora then? Lars, we have a change control process for precisely this reason. The systemd developers and packagers in Fedora are (mostly) conscientious about going through it. My comment and cited question above has been taken somewhat out of context here. I am not debating the change control process etc. Just stating that new features in systemd have a tendency to find its way into the standard Fedora release (sooner or later), and that the new feature discussed earlier in the thread most likely will be handled in the same manner. And that this fact makes a discussion about this new feature on-topic for this list. And not off-topic as Rahul states.That is all... Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/02/14 15:47, Paul W. Frields wrote: Well, to be frank, it was sold to solve the issue of start up time of computers. ... This is incorrect. The actual problems systemd was meant to solve include but are not limited to: No, it was sold to us, in the beginning, with the promise of faster boot time. I remember the often long and winding discussions on whether this materialized or not... Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se wrote: On 12/02/14 15:47, Paul W. Frields wrote: Well, to be frank, it was sold to solve the issue of start up time of computers. ... This is incorrect. The actual problems systemd was meant to solve include but are not limited to: No, it was sold to us, in the beginning, with the promise of faster boot time. I remember the often long and winding discussions on whether this materialized or not... I unfortunately have to side with Lars (while also trying not to fuel the fire) Because of this he-said/she-said discussion, I dug up and read this reference/announcement for systemd. http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html And from what I quickly read, it focuses on 'parallel' startup (which I can see no other reason for, other than speeding boot time) but on the other hand, although it talks about 'logging everything', it didn't advertize or mention the binary approach that we now have that many object to. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 05:34:53PM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 12/02/14 15:47, Paul W. Frields wrote: Well, to be frank, it was sold to solve the issue of start up time of computers. ... This is incorrect. The actual problems systemd was meant to solve include but are not limited to: No, it was sold to us, in the beginning, with the promise of faster boot time. I remember the often long and winding discussions on whether this materialized or not... I think promise is not correct here either. Potential perhaps. As Lennart's original blog shows, the driving requirements were better parallelization and on-demand startup, responsiveness to dynamic system change, socket activation, better process tracking, execution environment control, and improved event logic. Speed of boot time was not guaranteed but a likely outcome for some hardware configurations (not all, which would be silly to promise, and impossible to provide). You can read it for yourself here: http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd.html The blog of course mentions speed, because that's what many people were discussing at the time, but it correctly places this in the context of what is desirable, rather than what is required. An init system with the proper requirements would likely yield the speed some people were looking for, but the purpose of systemd is not simply to be fast. -- Paul W. Frieldshttp://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 http://redhat.com/ - - - - http://pfrields.fedorapeople.org/ The open source story continues to grow: http://opensource.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/02/2014 06:47 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: On Tue, Dec 02, 2014 at 09:40:53AM +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 12/02/14 02:45, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Well, it was originally meant to be default in Fedora 14 and there were many discussions about it. it is been years since that point. Perhaps people didn't pay attention to it and didn't realize it but it wasn't snuck in when people weren't looking. There were literally hundreds of mails on the subject before it become default. Well, to be frank, it was sold to solve the issue of start up time of computers. It has then evolved to almost transfer the GNU/Linux concept to systemd/Linux. And this is something that has to be addressed, even on on a users list. Users use Fedora too, you know :) and might have usable (users) views on the subject. This is incorrect. The actual problems systemd was meant to solve include but are not limited to: * Properly sorting dependencies of services Well, they sure missed on that one. If anything, this has become a real quagmire with systemd. * Simplifying startup configuration Simplifying startup? What an utter and complete misread. Startup is INCREDIBLY more complex now. Over 6MB of config files in four or five directories scattered all over hell and gone? They call that simplifying startup configs? Really? Just try to sort out a frozen boot sometime. You have NO idea what the hell's going on because there are multiple processes running and there's no way to tell what's locked up. On top of that, journalctl stuffs everything useful into a bloody database so it's difficult to see what's what. We used to be able to boot to single user mode and look at the logs. Not anymore. Sheesh! * Allowing arbitrary levels of startup I might allow this, but was there really any need to do this? That's what rc.local was for. * Allowing sysadmins more control over resource utilization I really fail to see how that's the case. If anything, this parallelization crud uses MORE resources, not less. The fact that the parallelization in systemd permits faster startup time was a side benefit. And a piss-poor benefit. If you're rebooting so often that this is a problem, then you have other issues that need sorting before dealing with this perceived bottleneck. soap I've said this before and I will continue to say it: systemd (and journalctl's horrible abomination of stuffing logs into databases) are solutions to problems that never existed. They are unnecessarily complex, fraught with race conditions and dependency issues, resource hogs, and just really, really stupid ideas in general. It appears that the people who have forced these beasties on us are all ex-government officials (We know what's best for you...you're too stupid to deal with it.) /soap -- - Rick Stevens, Systems Engineer, AllDigitalri...@alldigital.com - - AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 22643734Yahoo: origrps2 - -- - IGNORE that man behind the keyboard! - -- The Wizard of OS - -- -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Tue, 2014-12-02 at 10:22 -0800, Rick Stevens wrote: On 12/02/2014 06:47 AM, Paul W. Frields wrote: * Simplifying startup configuration Simplifying startup? No. Simplifying startup configuration. Woogie -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: please stop this thread; constructive discussion can take place in a new one [was Re: Latest systemd news]
On 12/02/2014 06:23 AM, Matthew Miller wrote: Let's stop this thread. New discussion about specific functionality actually intended to discuss, share, and learn rather than inflame is fine, but since this *is* a topic which attracts all manner of strong feelings, please take *extra* care in any such new thread. thanx 10E6 -- Glenn Holmer (Linux registered user #16682) After the vintage season came the aftermath -- and Cenbe. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/14 02:31, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Hi On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 11/18/14 04:20, Rahul Sundaram wrote: user mailing list of a distribution which doesn't even use the component at all yet. Well, how long do you think it will take until the component is being used then? Systemd have had a tendency to very quickly find its way into Fedora, and probably this will also do so. I.e., it might not be here yet, but it is on the door step. And discussions about this is a good thing, even on this list. No. It isn't. Not unless the component is proposed. What part(s) of the systemd suite has not been adopted by Fedora so far? What says that this component will not be adopted by fedora? If you going to rant about some experimental component a few days after it has been committed to the master repository, please do it elsewhere. Why? Where? Why shouldn't users be allowed to discuss these things here? Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: What part(s) of the systemd suite has not been adopted by Fedora so far? What says that this component will not be adopted by fedora? Look up feature pages to understand which components have been adopted. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SystemdPredictableNetworkInterfaceNames http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/systemd-journal http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SystemdLightweightContainers http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SystemdCalendarTimers https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PackagePresets Noone so far has claimed that any component won't be adopted. If and when they are actually proposed, a discussion about them would be warranted. Why? Where? Why shouldn't users be allowed to discuss these things here? The same reason you are discouraged from even discuss test or development releases of Fedora itself in this list. It is offtopic. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/14 15:50, Rahul Sundaram wrote: On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: What part(s) of the systemd suite has not been adopted by Fedora so far? What says that this component will not be adopted by fedora? Look up feature pages to understand which components have been adopted. My question was What part(s) of the systemd suite has not been adopted. Note the not part. If very few parts have not been adopted, the chances for this component to find its way into Fedora is greater than if a lot of parts had not been adopted. I.e. the amount of not accepted parts of systemd in Fedora is a good indicator whether also this part will find its way into Fedora. Noone so far has claimed that any component won't be adopted. If and when they are actually proposed, a discussion about them would be warranted. I.e. it might very well be adopted and therefor a discussion about it is in order. Why wait for the inevitable? Why? Where? Why shouldn't users be allowed to discuss these things here? The same reason you are discouraged from even discuss test or development releases of Fedora itself in this list. It is offtopic. This is not about a test or development release. It is about new functionality finding its way into systemd and whether this functionality is a good or bad thing. This is very much a user related discussion and as such it is not off-topic on this mailing list. In my book, an open discussion is always better than no discussion. You may have other views on this though... I find the technical discussion on this subject quite interesting, and an open discussion may lead to a better understanding of the objective for the new component and whether it is of use for the normal user or not, or whether it is duplicating work already done (that very well might lead to security issues etc.). Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: My question was What part(s) of the systemd suite has not been adopted. Note the not part. Yes. I understood that fine. I was pointing out which parts have been adopted so you can count the rest as not adopted. There are several different components which haven't been adopted nor even proposed because they are simply not yet ready or not general purpose enough to be used by default. when they are actually proposed, a discussion about them would be warranted. I.e. it might very well be adopted and therefor a discussion about it is in order. Why wait for the inevitable? That makes no sense. You don't discuss developmental features of upstream projects in a users list. This is not about a test or development release. It is about new functionality finding its way into systemd Precisely why it is even more offtopic to discuss them here. This list is meant for helping users on general releases of Fedora. Any features that are not part of the general releases of Fedora is not suitable for discussion here. We wrote up the list guidelines for a reason. Please follow them. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/14 17:27, Rahul Sundaram wrote: There are several different components which haven't been adopted nor even proposed because they are simply not yet ready or not general purpose enough to be used by default. Well, if they are not yet ready or not general purpose enough to be used by default they should not be adopted. We have enough of not yet ready products and does not need any more. But what happens when they are ready? Will they be part of Fedora then? What ready parts, or what not general purpose enough parts of systemd has not been adopted by Fedora? That is what I am pointing at. With the meaning that what we discuss in this thread with huge probability will make it into Fedora when it is ready, just as the rest of the systemd suite. I.e. it might very well be adopted and therefor a discussion about it is in order. Why wait for the inevitable? That makes no sense. You don't discuss developmental features of upstream projects in a users list. It makes perfect sense. It will with huge probability make it into Fedora and because of that it will affect the users of Fedora who thereby have all the rights to discuss this user issues on the users list. Even at this early stage. This is not about a test or development release. It is about new functionality finding its way into systemd Precisely why it is even more offtopic to discuss them here. This list is meant for helping users on general releases of Fedora. Any features that are not part of the general releases of Fedora is not suitable for discussion here. We wrote up the list guidelines for a reason. Please follow them. I have been on the RedHat/Fedora lists since about 1996 and seen the progress of the different list and (endless?) discussions about what to discuss and what not to discuss. And judging from that experience, I see no harm whatsoever in discussing new functionality that (eventually) will make it into Fedora default and thereby affect the users of Fedora. The issue being discussed in this thread has nothing to do with test releases and has because of that nothing to do on the test list. It has nothing to do with the development releases (rawhide) and has because of that nothing to do on the fedora-devel list. But again, this will affect the users of Fedora, and this list is about the users of Fedora. Rahul, precisely where in the guidelines does it say that it is, on this list, prohibited to discuss new functionality in a package used by Fedora, functionality that with huge probability will make into Fedora? And if it is prohibited here, where should it be discussed (out of the Fedora mailing lists)? Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 3:15 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: The issue being discussed in this thread has nothing to do with test releases and has because of that nothing to do on the test list. It has nothing to do with the development releases (rawhide) and has because of that nothing to do on the fedora-devel list. But again, this will affect the users of Fedora, and this list is about the users of Fedora I will limit my answer to one point to keep it brief. Despite your insistence, development features that are part of upstream project but not in any Fedora release *cannot* affect Fedora users by definition Hence they are offtopic for this list. If you want to discuss them, go to the upstream project mailing list for that Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/14 21:47, Rahul Sundaram wrote: I will limit my answer to one point to keep it brief. Despite your insistence, development features that are part of upstream project but not in any Fedora release *cannot* affect Fedora users by definition Hence they are offtopic for this list. If you want to discuss them, go to the upstream project mailing list for that As systemd is (a huge) part of Fedora, and what we discuss is a new feature in systemd, it will, eventually, affect the users of Fedora. It is therefore, by definition, a users issue. A users issue that is very much on-topic on this users list. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 4:04 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: As systemd is (a huge) part of Fedora, and what we discuss is a new feature in systemd, it will, eventually, That is by no means a good assumption but even if you take that assumption as a given, it is not a good justification. This is exactly why I provided the analogy of development releases of Fedora. What is in a test or development release of Fedora will become part of Fedora regular releases typically but even then, it is a good reason to discuss developmental releases of Fedora in this list. There is a separate mailing list for that. You are supposed to use that list instead. In a similar way, development branches of systemd has its own mailing list for discussing such functionality called systemd-devel list. Use that list if you are so keen on discussing development branches of systemd. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/14 22:13, Rahul Sundaram wrote: In a similar way, development branches of systemd has its own mailing list for discussing such functionality called systemd-devel list. Use that list if you are so keen on discussing development branches of systemd. I am keen on discussing how new features in systemd (or any other packages used by Fedora for that matter) will affect the users of Fedora. The best place for that is this users list. If I was keen on discussing implementation details of this new feature, I would use the appropriate systemd mailing list. But I can not see that discussing Fedora users view on new features of systemd on the systemd mailing lists will lead to any good... Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 4:25 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: I am keen on discussing how new features in systemd (or any other packages used by Fedora for that matter) will affect the users of Fedora. The best place for that is this users list. By that account why would rawhide or test releases be considered offtopic? How about development kernel or glibc features? But I can not see that discussing Fedora users view on new features of systemd on the systemd mailing lists will lead to any good... Why wouldn't it? Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 04:32:49PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote: I am keen on discussing how new features in systemd (or any other packages used by Fedora for that matter) will affect the users of Fedora. The best place for that is this users list. By that account why would rawhide or test releases be considered offtopic? How about development kernel or glibc features? Honestly, I don't think constructive, on-topic discussion of those things is too far off-topic. Discussion of actual development or test releases, sure, but I don't think it'd be bad for someone to talk about, for example, how OverlayFS might be used in Fedora. If the thread goes off the rails and outside of the scope of community assistance, encouragement, and advice — not to mention the Friends foundation — that's a different story. And in any case, a big back and forth about what is or isn't on topic isn't helping anyone either. :( -- Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org Fedora Project Leader -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: If the thread goes off the rails and outside of the scope of community assistance, encouragement, and advice — not to mention the Friends foundation — that's a different story. I would suggest that the thread is off the rails long time back and not enforcing the list guidelines and keeping the list on topic leads to us, unable to point our own users to the list for help because they have to wade through rants. A similar problem already plagued the #fedora IRC channel before more people stepped in. I along with several others spend hours every week on moderation in Ask Fedora to keep the content focused on helping users. I think the results are pretty clear. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 07:00:39PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote: I would suggest that the thread is off the rails long time back and not enforcing the list guidelines and keeping the list on topic leads to us, unable to point our own users to the list for help because they have to wade through rants. With all due respect, it's very clear to me that systemd is a game changer and has invoked very intense and concerned responses from the entire Linux community. It's not sensible to just say not here. Fedora is supposed to be a testing ground for future Redhat releases; as such, its community is--or should be--a valuable canary for response from Redhat end users in the future. That there is so much concern about systemd tells me there is a problem--whether technical, or perceptual--that should be resolved *here*, not in the Redhat release channels. Resolution here can be used by Redhat in their commercial venue. Again, with all due respect, my suggestion is to convince Fedora users that the decision to migrate to systemd is a good idea. They're your advocates and concept testers. Just telling them to shut up, out of scope seems a bad idea. Sincerely, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 7:23 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: Just telling them to shut up, out of scope seems a bad idea. Good thing nobody did that then, right? With all due respect, you can't argue against your own made up quote. As to the question of response from Red Hat, in case you haven't noticed, RHEL 7 already has shipped with it. Ranting about developmental features in systemd in a *users* list is hardly a good way to provide feedback to either Fedora or Red Hat. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 07:55:51PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Good thing nobody did that then, right? Well, that's good. With all due respect, you can't argue against your own made up quote. (Hands up), no arguing. Ranting about ... Excuse me; I worked very hard to *not* rant. It intended to be, and I believe was, a reasoned and rational attempt to explain why someone would be asking questions about systemd and the decisions, current and projected, to incorporate it into Fedora. And to express the belief that this forum, and its participants, are important to Redhat's decison making process, and why. Sincerely, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Better tools needed - Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/2014 07:23 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 07:00:39PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote: I would suggest that the thread is off the rails long time back and not enforcing the list guidelines and keeping the list on topic leads to us, unable to point our own users to the list for help because they have to wade through rants. With all due respect, it's very clear to me that systemd is a game changer and has invoked very intense and concerned responses from the entire Linux community. It's not sensible to just say not here. Fedora is supposed to be a testing ground for future Redhat releases; as such, its community is--or should be--a valuable canary for response from Redhat end users in the future. That there is so much concern about systemd tells me there is a problem--whether technical, or perceptual--that should be resolved *here*, not in the Redhat release channels. Resolution here can be used by Redhat in their commercial venue. Again, with all due respect, my suggestion is to convince Fedora users that the decision to migrate to systemd is a good idea. They're your advocates and concept testers. Just telling them to shut up, out of scope seems a bad idea. Perhaps at some point we will get better tools for using systemd. I mean compare: systemctl restart sshd.service with service sshd restart Is there something else to do with sshd other than sshd.service? I have not found it. Why not: systemctl restart sshd The 'd' at the end of the name has always implied service. This is the default mode. Perhaps there is more, but those that work with 'more' will tend to know 'more'. Then there was good old 'chkconfig' that produced a nice tablular report of services that can be controlled. I have yet to find anything close to this with systemd. Perhaps much of the complaining and doom and gloom is that systemV was 'easy' to work with where as systemd is presented as too rich of an environment to interact with. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: Ranting about ... Excuse me; I worked very hard to *not* rant. Sure. I wasn't referring to your post. Your effort is appreciated. It intended to be, and I believe was, a reasoned and rational attempt to explain why someone would be asking questions about systemd and the decisions, current and projected, to incorporate it into Fedora. And to express the belief that this forum, and its participants, are important to Redhat's decison making process, and why. I don't disagree with all that. I do disagree that the current approach taken in the beginning of the thread does a good job of doing that. Red Hat and other Fedora Project volunteer contributors should take feedback from this list seriously and for this to happen, all participants need to work better on providing feedback in a form that is useful. That is a collective responsibility and one that I find important. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better tools needed - Re: Latest systemd news
HI On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: Perhaps at some point we will get better tools for using systemd. Thanks for bringing in something useful to the discussion that I can address: I mean compare: systemctl restart sshd.service with service sshd restart Is there something else to do with sshd other than sshd.service? I have not found it. Why not: systemctl restart sshd Have you tried? Hint: It works fine. Then there was good old 'chkconfig' that produced a nice tablular report of services that can be controlled. I have yet to find anything close to this with systemd. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SysVinit_to_Systemd_Cheatsheet Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 08:19:47PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Sure. I wasn't referring to your post. Your effort is appreciated. Ah; thank you. I really am tired of drama, and try not to contribute. I don't disagree with all that. I do disagree that the current approach taken in the beginning of the thread does a good job of doing that. I agree, but I will point out that incorporating systemd is an...extremely controversial...decision. And, the entire arena seems to be fraught with extreme opinions. Couple that with the fact that many here seem not to have known it was coming, and the excitement is predictable. Perhaps regrettable, but still, this is the venue we need to address--it's the precursor to what Redhat will run into as it rolls this out to the industry. Red Hat and other Fedora Project volunteer contributors should take feedback from this list seriously and for this to happen, all participants need to work better on providing feedback in a form that is useful. That is a collective responsibility and one that I find important. Thoroughly agree. Think twice, post once. Sincerely, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better tools needed - Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/2014 08:23 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: HI On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: Perhaps at some point we will get better tools for using systemd. Thanks for bringing in something useful to the discussion that I can address: I mean compare: systemctl restart sshd.service with service sshd restart Is there something else to do with sshd other than sshd.service? I have not found it. Why not: systemctl restart sshd Have you tried? Hint: It works fine. Nope. Nice to know. Then there was good old 'chkconfig' that produced a nice tablular report of services that can be controlled. I have yet to find anything close to this with systemd. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SysVinit_to_Systemd_Cheatsheet You think 'chkconfig --list' can be easily replaced with systemctl list-unit-files --type=service(preferred) ls /etc/systemd/system/*.wants/ Nah. No way. Oh, and that (perferred) gives an error :) And the list is hugh compared to what services are really up to user control. I mean listed items like: dbus-org.fedoraproject.FirewallD1.service enabled dbus-org.freedesktop.hostname1.service static dbus-org.freedesktop.locale1.servicestatic dbus-org.freedesktop.login1.service static dbus-org.freedesktop.machine1.service static dbus-org.freedesktop.ModemManager1.service enabled dbus-org.freedesktop.NetworkManager.service enabled dbus-org.freedesktop.nm-dispatcher.service enabled dbus-org.freedesktop.timedate1.service static dbus.servicestatic And there are others there that are just as challenging to remember when you need them. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better tools needed - Re: Latest systemd news
HI On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: And the list is hugh compared to what services are really up to user control. I mean listed items like: Yes that list is larger because systemd does allow you to control more than sysvinit does directly. Try it out Oh, and that (perferred) gives an error :) I am not sure if you actually typed in preferred. I have clarified the note anyway in the wiki. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: I agree, but I will point out that incorporating systemd is an...extremely controversial...decision. And, the entire arena seems to be fraught with extreme opinions. Couple that with the fact that many here seem not to have known it was coming, and the excitement is predictable. Well, it was originally meant to be default in Fedora 14 and there were many discussions about it. it is been years since that point. Perhaps people didn't pay attention to it and didn't realize it but it wasn't snuck in when people weren't looking. There were literally hundreds of mails on the subject before it become default. I don't mind the feedback at all. In fact, if it was more useful, I would spend *more* of my volunteer time on it and be more effective at it. For my part, I have been trying to improve the quality of the documentation including the wiki and man pages. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 08:45:28PM -0500, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Well, it was originally meant to be default in Fedora 14 and there were many discussions about it. it is been years since that point. Perhaps people didn't pay attention to it and didn't realize it but it wasn't snuck in when people weren't looking. There were literally hundreds of mails on the subject before it become default. There will always be new participants, and we all know the Linux crowd can be...volatile...when they're surprised. Yes, it may not be right that they're surprised, if there was a lot of discussion, but that is the reality. Some people don't pay attention, some are new since the discussion, etc. Normally, this wouldn't matter. But systemd is not normal. I don't mind the feedback at all. In fact, if it was more useful, I would spend *more* of my volunteer time on it and be more effective at it. I thorougly appreciate your time and effort. I've been in the volunteer arena numerous times; every time, it's ended in exhaustion, firm decision never again--and then I'm back. Volunteer organizations will use you and drain you; for some reason, we always come back. It's probably some sort of addiction. For my part, I have been trying to improve the quality of the documentation including the wiki and man pages. That is intensely needed. I think either new material explaining exactly why systemd is needed, and good, is critical. If it already exists, collected pointers are just as good (if not better). Sincerely, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:01 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: That is intensely needed. I think either new material explaining exactly why systemd is needed, and good, is critical. If it already exists, collected pointers are just as good (if not better) There are dozens of references about half way from http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ Also https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Systemd https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SysVinit_to_Systemd_Cheatsheet systemd also also an extensive amount of man pages. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Just to point out how explosive the systemd issue is in the Linux community, note that Debian has been forked just beause of this: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html Yes, I know, this isn't Fedora. But if it's that controversial that an enire distro will split, we can't ignore the issue for Fedora and, eventually (or already), Redhat. Sincerely, -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Dave Ihnat wrote: Just to point out how explosive the systemd issue is in the Linux community, note that Debian has been forked just beause of this: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html Yes, I know, this isn't Fedora. But if it's that controversial that an enire distro will split, we can't ignore the issue Just to be clear, the entire distro didn't split. A couple of folks (literally just two) who are not Debian contributors have announced a fork. Whether it amounts to anything in practice remains to be seen. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, 2014-12-01 at 20:14 -0600, Dave Ihnat wrote: Just to point out how explosive the systemd issue is in the Linux community, note that Debian has been forked just beause of this: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html Thanks for the link, not all Debian has gone to the dark side... In the mean time I will format fedora and load pclinuxos and keep a eye on Devuan. Gary. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Better tools needed - Re: Latest systemd news
On 12/01/2014 05:17 PM, Robert Moskowitz wrote: Then there was good old 'chkconfig' that produced a nice tablular report of services that can be controlled. I have yet to find anything close to this with systemd. systemctl list-unit-files -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 11/18/14 04:20, Rahul Sundaram wrote: user mailing list of a distribution which doesn't even use the component at all yet. Well, how long do you think it will take until the component is being used then? Systemd have had a tendency to very quickly find its way into Fedora, and probably this will also do so. I.e., it might not be here yet, but it is on the door step. And discussions about this is a good thing, even on this list. Lars -- Lars E. Pettersson l...@homer.se http://www.sm6rpz.se/ -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Sun, Nov 30, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Lars E. Pettersson wrote: On 11/18/14 04:20, Rahul Sundaram wrote: user mailing list of a distribution which doesn't even use the component at all yet. Well, how long do you think it will take until the component is being used then? Systemd have had a tendency to very quickly find its way into Fedora, and probably this will also do so. I.e., it might not be here yet, but it is on the door step. And discussions about this is a good thing, even on this list. No. It isn't. Not unless the component is proposed. If you going to rant about some experimental component a few days after it has been committed to the master repository, please do it elsewhere. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
El sáb, 15-11-2014 a las 08:53 -0500, Sam Varshavchik escribió: Making the rounds of various technical mailing lists yesterday, with a subject that's typically a variation of Just for yucks, and giggles is a link to a commit to systemd's git, adding DNS caching to systemd; in one, huge 857 line glop. Here's its entire commit message: resolved: add DNS cache. systemd-resolved is a daemon for resolving DNS. What's wrong about caching? All DNS servers perform caching. It's like if you have unbound at 127.0.0.1 as local resolver, that's a very common setup. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Once upon a time, Juan Orti juan.o...@miceliux.com said: systemd-resolved is a daemon for resolving DNS. What's wrong about caching? All DNS servers perform caching. It's like if you have unbound at 127.0.0.1 as local resolver, that's a very common setup. Well, that's the point. We already have multiple, perfectly functional, caching resolvers. We have resolver libraries. Why did the systemd project add this to the scope of the project for a system and service manager for Linux? Why didn't they re-use existing services and/or libraries? Why re-invent a wheel that happens to have a number of corner cases that can be tricky to get right (and a security problem if you get it wrong)? -- Chris Adams li...@cmadams.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Chris Adams li...@cmadams.net wrote: Once upon a time, Juan Orti juan.o...@miceliux.com said: systemd-resolved is a daemon for resolving DNS. What's wrong about caching? All DNS servers perform caching. It's like if you have unbound at 127.0.0.1 as local resolver, that's a very common setup. Well, that's the point. We already have multiple, perfectly functional, caching resolvers. We have resolver libraries. Why did the systemd project add this to the scope of the project for a system and service manager for Linux? Why didn't they re-use existing services and/or libraries? Why re-invent a wheel that happens to have a number of corner cases that can be tricky to get right (and a security problem if you get it wrong)? In general DNS caching may be useful, but with other perfectly good solution(s) (i.e. nscd) for Linux the implementation of the same in systemd does not add value. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Chris Adams wrote: Why did the systemd project add this to the scope of the project for a system and service manager for Linux? This was something that could have been easily asked to systemd developers rather than the long rant that was posted. In any case, https://lwn.net/Articles/621201/ Also CoreOS sponsored development of a lot of network stack. You can refer to their guides on how they are using it. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 11/17/2014 06:54 PM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: Hi On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Chris Adamswrote: Why did the systemd project add this to the scope of the project for a system and service manager for Linux? This was something that could have been easily asked to systemd developers rather than the long rant that was posted. In any case, https://lwn.net/Articles/621201/ Also CoreOS sponsored development of a lot of network stack. You can refer to their guides on how they are using it. already from the basic design resolved is very different from unbound. resolved keeps a seperate scope for the DNS servers on each interface. A scope is a resolver state machine plus a cache. That way, we can neatly separate VPN DNS servers from internet DNS servers, and merge them transparently. That means that with resolved in the mix for the first time you don't lose access to your LAN's DNS names, fully automatically, without any manual hacks. Also, as interfaces come and go their caches do too with this scheme, hence all the cache flushing complexity of dnssec-trigger doesn't exist at all. Then, because we actually implement LLMNR and DNS int he same stack (as well as mDNS very soon), we can transparently merge those protocols too. For those of us that deal with VPNs, we know how hard split horizon is, and actually how important it is for good performance. It is almost a shame it took until now for someone to address DNS by Interface. Actually it coincides with work in IETF on such matters. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Rahul Sundaram writes: Hi On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Chris Adams wrote: Why did the systemd project add this to the scope of the project for a system and service manager for Linux? This was something that could have been easily asked to systemd developers rather than the long rant that was posted. In any case, Right. Like systemd developers have such an established track record of listening to feedback from the community, and the DNS cache was implemented only pursuant to an open, lengthy discussion on the merits and disadvantages of it. URL:https://lwn.net/Articles/621201/https://lwn.net/Articles/621201/ Er… I don't think so. The scenario outlined there would be a valid argument for a simple DNS proxy, and nothing more. I could see this being a perfectly reasonable, and prudent, argument for a simple DNS proxy, that all containers get pointed to, and which forwards the DNS queries to whatever the current outside DNS server the host is configured for, at the moment. That makes perfect sense. A cobbled-together DNS cache, on the other hand, makes no sense, whatsoever. Reports of a compromised container poisoning the systemd DNS cache, and uses that to attack other containers on the same systems, in 3… 2… 1… This is really nothing more than a NIH syndrome. Really, that's all this is. pgp0puu9TObGS.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Hi On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 9:35 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Right. Like systemd developers have such an established track record of listening to feedback from the community, That has no connection to what I said. If you have already made up your mind, that's fine but if you are wondering why it is implemented, the right place to direct the question is to the developers and not in a user mailing list of a distribution which doesn't even use the component at all yet. Rahul -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Latest systemd news
Making the rounds of various technical mailing lists yesterday, with a subject that's typically a variation of Just for yucks, and giggles is a link to a commit to systemd's git, adding DNS caching to systemd; in one, huge 857 line glop. Here's its entire commit message: resolved: add DNS cache. And, it's beauty to read. Made me teary-eyed to know that systemd will cache my DNS queries. Not sure why systemd, all of a sudden, needs to make DNS queries. But if it does, it's going to cache them now! Such a sight to behold makes my heart skip a beat: now, not just bind, or pretty much every DNS server that automatically caches DNS for you – but so will systemd! But, seriously folks, systemd's DNS caching achieves absolutely 100% nothing. Really. Surprised? Well, you'll be shocked to know that the DNS server that systemd queries for that DNS RR, such as the stock bind, already automatically caches all recursive DNS replies!! systemd's own caching produces absolutely zero useful results. On the oft chance that it sends a query for a non-cached RR, the local DNS server will cache the response, before returning it to systemd, and then use the cached response for all future queries. That's what DNS servers do: provide caching for local clients. It's inherent in DNS's design: DNS was explicitly designed to use aggressive caching, it's an internet-wide, distributed, locally cached database. Isn't modern technology amazing? I'm willing to consider the possibility that I missed something obvious, some obvious value-added result from caching DNS RRs directly by systemd, and I'll stick around for someone to enlighten me; or if Occam's razor applies, and the author of that commit had no idea that bind already automatically caches DNS responses, and, more importantly, that its caching algorithms are a result of painful lessons learned from various DNS cache poisoning attacks, that have circulated around the intertubes, for the last couple of years. The only possible use case for this kind of caching approach would be if: A) You do not have a local DNS server nearby; and you have non-negligible latencies to whatever DNS server you use. B) Your queries tend to be for domains that your DNS servers are not authoritative for, so they'll benefit from local caching. So, can someone explain to me how likely this is going to be the case in a typical deployment scenario that systemd is targeted for; in an average corporate environment where systemd's alleged benefits will supposedly shine? I would guess that a typical systemd deployment, in a corporate/business environment, will certainly have multiple, low-latency DNS servers nearby, won't that be the case? And, if so, then this is just another potentially exploitable security hole in systemd, nothing more. P.S. After I wrote the above, poking around, Google dumped this onto my screen: http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q4/592 Mental note to myself: go back and check the timestamp of the systemd git commit – before, or after, this was disclosed… pgpcsGrNmBBmO.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 08:53:59 -0500 Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com wrote: Making the rounds of various technical mailing lists yesterday, with a subject that's typically a variation of Just for yucks, and giggles isa link to a commit to systemd's git, adding DNS caching to systemd; in one, huge 857 line glop. Here's its entire commit message: resolved: add DNS cache. And, it's beauty to read. Made me teary-eyed to know that systemd will ca che my DNS queries. Not sure why systemd, all of a sudden, needs to make DNS queries. But if it does, it's going to cache them now! Such a sight to behold makes my heart skip a beat: now, not just bind, or pretty much eve ry DNS server that automatically caches DNS for you – but so will sy stemd! But, seriously folks, systemd's DNS caching achieves absolutely 100% nothing. Really. Surprised? Well, you'll be shocked to know that the DNS server that systemd queries for that DNS RR, such as the stock bind, already automatically caches all recursive DNS replies!! systemd's own caching produces absolutely zero useful results. On the oft chance that i t sends a query for a non-cached RR, the local DNS server will cache the response, before returning it to systemd, and then use the cached respons e for all future queries. That's what DNS servers do: provide caching for local clients. It's inherent in DNS's design: DNS was explicitly designedto use aggressive caching, it's an internet-wide, distributed, locally cache d database. Isn't modern technology amazing? I'm willing to consider the possibility that I missed something obvious, some obvious value-added result from caching DNS RRs directly by systemd, and I'll stick around for someone to enlighten me; or if Occam's razor applies, and the author of that commit had no idea that bind already automatically caches DNS responses, and, more importantly, that its cachi ng algorithms are a result of painful lessons learned from various DNS cache poisoning attacks, that have circulated around the intertubes, for the la st couple of years. The only possible use case for this kind of caching approach would be if: A) You do not have a local DNS server nearby; and you have non-negligible latencies to whatever DNS server you use. B) Your queries tend to be for domains that your DNS servers are not authoritative for, so they'll benefit from local caching. So, can someone explain to me how likely this is going to be the case ina typical deployment scenario that systemd is targeted for; in an average corporate environment where systemd's alleged benefits will supposedly sh ine? I would guess that a typical systemd deployment, in a corporate/business environment, will certainly have multiple, low-latency DNS servers nearby , won't that be the case? And, if so, then this is just another potentially exploitable security hole in systemd, nothing more. P.S. After I wrote the above, poking around, Google dumped this onto my screen: http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q4/592 Mental note to myself: go back and check the timestamp of the systemd git commit – before, or after, this was disclosed… When will be the kernel embeded in the systemd? BR, Bob -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Once upon a time, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com said: Making the rounds of various technical mailing lists yesterday, with a subject that's typically a variation of Just for yucks, and giggles is a link to a commit to systemd's git, adding DNS caching to systemd; in one, huge 857 line glop. Here's its entire commit message: resolved: add DNS cache. Yet more unreasonable scope creep for the systemd project, and this time reinventing the wheel for no good reason. There are already perfectly good resolver libraries, caches, etc.; there is no good reason for systemd to grow its own. -- Chris Adams li...@cmadams.net -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 10:18:11 -0600 Chris Adams wrote: Yet more unreasonable scope creep for the systemd project, and this time reinventing the wheel for no good reason. I've always called systemd the world's fist computer fungus - it wants to grow over everything. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 08:53:59AM -0500, Sam Varshavchik wrote: Making the rounds of various technical mailing lists yesterday, with a subject that's typically a variation of Just for yucks, and giggles is a link to a commit to systemd's git, adding DNS caching to systemd; in one, huge 857 line glop. Here's its entire commit message: resolved: add DNS cache. This would be funny if it wasn't real. Seriously, if we'd described systemd to ourselves 10 years ago, we'd think it was parody. I never, ever liked watching train wrecks. And never thought it a good idea to let the inmates run the asylum. -- Dave Ihnat dih...@dminet.com -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On Nov 15, 2014 6:54 AM, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com wrote: Making the rounds of various technical mailing lists yesterday, with a subject that's typically a variation of Just for yucks, and giggles is a link to a commit to systemd's git, adding DNS caching to systemd; in one, huge 857 line glop. Here's its entire commit message: resolved: add DNS cache. And, it's beauty to read. Made me teary-eyed to know that systemd will cache my DNS queries. Not sure why systemd, all of a sudden, needs to make DNS queries. But if it does, it's going to cache them now! Such a sight to behold makes my heart skip a beat: now, not just bind, or pretty much every DNS server that automatically caches DNS for you – but so will systemd! But, seriously folks, systemd's DNS caching achieves absolutely 100% nothing. Really. Surprised? Well, you'll be shocked to know that the DNS server that systemd queries for that DNS RR, such as the stock bind, already automatically caches all recursive DNS replies!! systemd's own caching produces absolutely zero useful results. On the oft chance that it sends a query for a non-cached RR, the local DNS server will cache the response, before returning it to systemd, and then use the cached response for all future queries. That's what DNS servers do: provide caching for local clients. It's inherent in DNS's design: DNS was explicitly designed to use aggressive caching, it's an internet-wide, distributed, locally cached database. Isn't modern technology amazing? I'm willing to consider the possibility that I missed something obvious, some obvious value-added result from caching DNS RRs directly by systemd, and I'll stick around for someone to enlighten me; or if Occam's razor applies, and the author of that commit had no idea that bind already automatically caches DNS responses, and, more importantly, that its caching algorithms are a result of painful lessons learned from various DNS cache poisoning attacks, that have circulated around the intertubes, for the last couple of years. The only possible use case for this kind of caching approach would be if: A) You do not have a local DNS server nearby; and you have non-negligible latencies to whatever DNS server you use. B) Your queries tend to be for domains that your DNS servers are not authoritative for, so they'll benefit from local caching. So, can someone explain to me how likely this is going to be the case in a typical deployment scenario that systemd is targeted for; in an average corporate environment where systemd's alleged benefits will supposedly shine? I would guess that a typical systemd deployment, in a corporate/business environment, will certainly have multiple, low-latency DNS servers nearby, won't that be the case? And, if so, then this is just another potentially exploitable security hole in systemd, nothing more. P.S. After I wrote the above, poking around, Google dumped this onto my screen: http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q4/592 Mental note to myself: go back and check the timestamp of the systemd git commit – before, or after, this was disclosed… -- I haven't read into it much yet, but the vast majority of systemd network functionality is intended almost exclusively to support networking in systemd-nspawn containers. The init system's job is to isolate and manage services; container management is a logical add. Whatever the intent, I hope that everyone discovers it from reading actual documentation instead of inflammatory comments on indignant speculation about the intent behind a one sentence feature description like resolved: add DNS cache . I'm not necessarily putting you in that box, Sam, but these discussions tend to feed on themselves and it makes productive discourse difficult. --Pete -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
On 11/15/2014 08:27 AM, Tom Horsley wrote: I've always called systemd the world's fist computer fungus - it wants to grow over everything. Resistance is futile! Your functionality will be assimilated. -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
Re: Latest systemd news
Pete Travis writes: Whatever the intent, I hope that everyone discovers it from reading actual documentation instead of inflammatory comments on indignant speculation about the intent behind a one sentence feature description like resolved: add DNS cache . I'm not necessarily putting you in that box, Sam, but these discussions tend to feed on themselves and it makes productive discourse difficult. I think that the one-line commit message is the least important issue here. pgpCAuSxsbgBg.pgp Description: PGP signature -- users mailing list users@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe or change subscription options: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/users Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct Guidelines: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines Have a question? Ask away: http://ask.fedoraproject.org
