Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Me, too. Woody -Original Message- From: Users On Behalf Of Frank Lanitz Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2021 3:35 PM To: users@lists.geany.org Subject: Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ... ATTENTION: This email came from an external source. Do not open attachments or click on links from unknown senders or unexpected emails. On 25.09.21 23:20, Thomas Martitz wrote: > FWIW, I went ahead and created the Matrix[1] channel #geany:matrix.org. > Maybe we can try it out to organize the 1.38 release and then evaluate > in more detail afterwards. Thanks. Just joined. .f ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 25.09.21 23:20, Thomas Martitz wrote: FWIW, I went ahead and created the Matrix[1] channel #geany:matrix.org. Maybe we can try it out to organize the 1.38 release and then evaluate in more detail afterwards. Thanks. Just joined. .f OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Am 13.06.21 um 20:41 schrieb Frank Lanitz: Hi folks, I'm sorry -- not much time lately … A friend brought to my attention that there have been some unfunny events at freenode-network where our chat is also hosted at the moment. To be honest I did not yet follow this topic up and really lagging details (Anyone can give up some details here?) -- I want to ask for the future of the IRC chat? What do you think? FWIW, I went ahead and created the Matrix[1] channel #geany:matrix.org. Maybe we can try it out to organize the 1.38 release and then evaluate in more detail afterwards. I'm waiting for you ;-) [1] https://matrix.org/ Best regards. ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
> Ok, fine. > I was rather referring to that we probably want to mention the channel > on the website as one possibility of getting and giving support. > I don't think it should be mentioned as if its an official "support" method unless it is clear there are actually active aware Geany experts available. That doesn't have to be just devs, some of the other well known and knowledgeable contributors would occasionally answer questions on IRC (thanks all) and presumably that would continue. But there were long periods of crickets chirping on there too when questions went unanswered. So calling it a "support" method is setting an expectation that is likely to disappoint users unless more active participation is certain. I'm not saying don't mention it, but under "Other" something like "There is a Geany at #abc:def.ghi where someone might be able to help if you have a question, but it is not guaranteed anyone is available" or similar. > > > If you want to write a bot to get the history on geany.org, or to serve > > coffee and drinks, then that's another story. However, the protocol (and > > python API for it) has been stable in my personal experience. > > I know it will be very hard for Lex but no, I don't want to have again > that bot and logs on the website and all this. > I set this stuff up more than ten years ago and at that time I thought > it's absolutely necessary and the hottest stuff :). Has it only been around ten years? Or are you just trying to hide how olde we are all getting ;-) Cheers Lex > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 16.06.21 11:04, Thomas Martitz wrote: > Am 15.06.21 um 23:28 schrieb Enrico Tröger: >> On 15.06.21 14:07, Lex Trotman wrote: >>> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 21:18, Peter Scholtens via Users >>> wrote: As an FOSS project, one further requirement I would suggest is to *keep* using an open source and federated protocol. Obliging infrequent users to sign on to a developer site seems like a too high threshold to me. >>> "To start chatting on Matrix you’ll need to sign up for a user >>> account." -- Matrix intro >>> >>> So its the same thing, just a different place, users will still have >>> to make yet another account. >>> >>> [...] >>> >>> Organisations like Mozilla and Gnome seem to be running their own >>> servers, but as Enrico said, that will only happen for Geany if >>> someone does it _and maintains it_ ... and not just for his suggested >>> three weeks ;-) >> Exactly. >> If anyone wants to setup a > group> and/or maybe even a bridge to IRC, feel free. I didn't mean to >> stop anyone from doing so. Maybe it will be used like IRC before or even >> more. Or not. >> My only wish is that it should last a bit and, in my experience, hosting >> once setup works pretty good and on its own once you setup it carefully. >> But at some point something just breaks (for various reasons) and it >> needs work. So it's always rather a marathon than a sprint. >> >> If anyone wants to build something like this or so, feel free to create >> PR for the website to mention it. > > > There seems to be some misconception. Matrix is a federated protocol. > That means that there is no single instance that is the "host" of a > #geany matrix channel. Ok, fine. I was rather referring to that we probably want to mention the channel on the website as one possibility of getting and giving support. > If you want to write a bot to get the history on geany.org, or to serve > coffee and drinks, then that's another story. However, the protocol (and > python API for it) has been stable in my personal experience. I know it will be very hard for Lex but no, I don't want to have again that bot and logs on the website and all this. I set this stuff up more than ten years ago and at that time I thought it's absolutely necessary and the hottest stuff :). ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 16.06.21 14:25, Lex Trotman wrote: It is the only reason it might work, but it would still make replying to questions messy and conversations all mixed up. Matrix itself as well as most clients (element is just one) allow Reply-to-post .. which looks pretty much like this here. Using slack and RocketChat for >5 years now in other context I'm pretty happy threads and other ... features are not included. .f OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 16.06.21 14:25, Lex Trotman wrote: Yes, but how do I find a server or servers and how do I choose? With IRC at least all that happened in the background. You don't. A (pubic) channel is addressed like #: which can bei published and if federation is enabled, can be joined from every other matrix instance. You even can allow other servers to proxy that channel. So let's say there is a #geany:matrix.org I can take it and register it on my instance like #geany:mtxsrv.org as well. So "my" users can easily find that channel. Pretty cool ;) Cheers, Frank OpenPGP_signature Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Am 16.06.21 um 14:25 schrieb Lex Trotman: On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 at 20:15, Thomas Martitz wrote: Am 16.06.21 um 11:30 schrieb Lex Trotman: Thanks Thomas but unfortunately you have given me even more questions that the Matrix site doesn't answer (that I could find) :-S There seems to be some misconception. Matrix is a federated protocol. That means that there is no single instance that is the "host" of a #geany matrix channel. Anyone can open such a channel, and it will propagate to any Matrix server that "owns" clients that participate in the chat, and all of those servers have the entire history. So how does a server get clients? Or perhaps its more how does a client find a server? If I want to join a channel what do I do? Who runs the servers? You register your Matrix account on a server of your choice. Yes, but how do I find a server or servers and how do I choose? With IRC at least all that happened in the background. Most clients offer to register an account at matrix.org by default, so just do that if you don't really care. Hm? With IRC we used a single server that is now hijacked, otherwise we wouldn't discuss. matrix.org hosts the reference server but anyone is free to host commercial or personal ones like I do (then called homeserver). Expecting users to run a server to get support is unreasonable, and I won't run one, so lets keep to what clients can do. Nowhere I implied that I expect users to run their own server. But not everyone is new to Matrix, some users may already have accounts on non-matrix.org servers or even their own, and they can participate just fine as well. (There is a reference server side that is FOSS and there are a number of competing implementations as well, for example in Rust). You can register within the clients, for example on https://app.element.io/, and then you can readily join all channels over the world. And if that server goes away I'm stuffed? Make a new account on a different server. You will get the chat history downloaded to your new account. So its like IRC in that all conversations on the #geany channel are mixed together. But unlike IRC the servers maintain the history? Yes, it's a flat chat. From my past experience with #geany on irc (which is very low traffic) that's good enough. It is the only reason it might work, but it would still make replying to questions messy and conversations all mixed up. I only know Rocket.Chat (https://rocket.chat/) that allows for sub-threads in channels. We use that at work, and that feature is sometimes nice, but the UI is not great (sub-threads are in a tiny window on the right) so I often want to avoid sub-threads. Sigh, how often is a useful feature killed by a bad UI :-S So there is no action required to keep the channel alive, as long as there are participating (even if idle) users. How does the "federation" handle loss of servers? Are there IRC like net splits? Or does it handle it all better? When a server goes down then users that have their accounts on that server cannot participate anymore. Other users are not affected. When the server comes back online it fetches the missing history of what happend during the downtime. Which comes back to the question of how to find/choose a server. Again, most (if not all) clients default to "register a new account at matrix.org", if you explicitly want a different server use Google, but matrix.org is OK (runs FOSS software and communicates openly). Best regards ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 at 20:15, Thomas Martitz wrote: > > Am 16.06.21 um 11:30 schrieb Lex Trotman: > > > > Thanks Thomas but unfortunately you have given me even more questions > > that the Matrix site doesn't answer (that I could find) :-S > > > >> There seems to be some misconception. Matrix is a federated protocol. > >> That means that there is no single instance that is the "host" of a > >> #geany matrix channel. > >> > >> Anyone can open such a channel, and it will propagate to any Matrix > >> server that "owns" clients that participate in the chat, and all of > >> those servers have the entire history. > > So how does a server get clients? Or perhaps its more how does a > > client find a server? If I want to join a channel what do I do? Who > > runs the servers? > > > You register your Matrix account on a server of your choice. Yes, but how do I find a server or servers and how do I choose? With IRC at least all that happened in the background. > > matrix.org hosts the reference server but anyone is free to host > commercial or personal ones like I do (then called homeserver). Expecting users to run a server to get support is unreasonable, and I won't run one, so lets keep to what clients can do. > > (There is a reference server side that is FOSS and there are a number of > competing implementations as well, for example in Rust). > > You can register within the clients, for example on > https://app.element.io/, and then you can readily join all channels over > the world. > And if that server goes away I'm stuffed? > > > > > So its like IRC in that all conversations on the #geany channel are > > mixed together. But unlike IRC the servers maintain the history? > > Yes, it's a flat chat. From my past experience with #geany on irc (which > is very low traffic) that's good enough. It is the only reason it might work, but it would still make replying to questions messy and conversations all mixed up. > > I only know Rocket.Chat (https://rocket.chat/) that allows for > sub-threads in channels. We use that at work, and that feature is > sometimes nice, but the UI is not great (sub-threads are in a tiny > window on the right) so I often want to avoid sub-threads. > Sigh, how often is a useful feature killed by a bad UI :-S > > > > >> So there is no action required to keep the channel alive, as long as > >> there are participating (even if idle) users. > >> > > How does the "federation" handle loss of servers? Are there IRC like > > net splits? Or does it handle it all better? > > > When a server goes down then users that have their accounts on that > server cannot participate anymore. Other users are not affected. When > the server comes back online it fetches the missing history of what > happend during the downtime. Which comes back to the question of how to find/choose a server. > > Federation is not for load-balancing or redundancy, at least not > primarily. It's so that there can multiple servers in the ecosystem to > chose from. You might trust server A more than B, or server C could > offer better services for a fee. Essentially it looks to me like its better than IRC in some places and worse in others, but its still chat, and I'm over it for support purposes. Obviously its ok if people want to run a channel/room/whatever its called as an unofficial support mechanism and probably the Geany website should acknowledge it, but it should be referred to as unofficial by the Geany website. I'm not at all stuck on Github discussions, except its there, now (admittedly as beta), there are already two entries, we don't have to do anything, and it keeps conversations together. I understand the point of users having to make an account on a techie type site like github, but as I said before, they will have to make one somewhere unless it happens to be something they use already. Same for zulip, same for discourse, same for IRC, same for matrix. Seems we havn't found a good, free for projects like Geany, simple solution yet, what else is there? Cheers Lex > > > Best regards > > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Am 16.06.21 um 11:30 schrieb Lex Trotman: Thanks Thomas but unfortunately you have given me even more questions that the Matrix site doesn't answer (that I could find) :-S There seems to be some misconception. Matrix is a federated protocol. That means that there is no single instance that is the "host" of a #geany matrix channel. Anyone can open such a channel, and it will propagate to any Matrix server that "owns" clients that participate in the chat, and all of those servers have the entire history. So how does a server get clients? Or perhaps its more how does a client find a server? If I want to join a channel what do I do? Who runs the servers? You register your Matrix account on a server of your choice. matrix.org hosts the reference server but anyone is free to host commercial or personal ones like I do (then called homeserver). (There is a reference server side that is FOSS and there are a number of competing implementations as well, for example in Rust). You can register within the clients, for example on https://app.element.io/, and then you can readily join all channels over the world. So its like IRC in that all conversations on the #geany channel are mixed together. But unlike IRC the servers maintain the history? Yes, it's a flat chat. From my past experience with #geany on irc (which is very low traffic) that's good enough. I only know Rocket.Chat (https://rocket.chat/) that allows for sub-threads in channels. We use that at work, and that feature is sometimes nice, but the UI is not great (sub-threads are in a tiny window on the right) so I often want to avoid sub-threads. So there is no action required to keep the channel alive, as long as there are participating (even if idle) users. How does the "federation" handle loss of servers? Are there IRC like net splits? Or does it handle it all better? When a server goes down then users that have their accounts on that server cannot participate anymore. Other users are not affected. When the server comes back online it fetches the missing history of what happend during the downtime. Federation is not for load-balancing or redundancy, at least not primarily. It's so that there can multiple servers in the ecosystem to chose from. You might trust server A more than B, or server C could offer better services for a fee. Best regards ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 at 19:05, Thomas Martitz wrote: > > Am 15.06.21 um 23:28 schrieb Enrico Tröger: > > On 15.06.21 14:07, Lex Trotman wrote: > >> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 21:18, Peter Scholtens via Users > >> wrote: > >>> As an FOSS project, one further requirement I would suggest is to *keep* > >>> using an open source and federated protocol. Obliging infrequent users to > >>> sign on to a developer site seems like a too high threshold to me. > >> "To start chatting on Matrix you’ll need to sign up for a user > >> account." -- Matrix intro > >> > >> So its the same thing, just a different place, users will still have > >> to make yet another account. > >> > >> [...] > >> > >> Organisations like Mozilla and Gnome seem to be running their own > >> servers, but as Enrico said, that will only happen for Geany if > >> someone does it _and maintains it_ ... and not just for his suggested > >> three weeks ;-) > > Exactly. > > If anyone wants to setup a > group> and/or maybe even a bridge to IRC, feel free. I didn't mean to > > stop anyone from doing so. Maybe it will be used like IRC before or even > > more. Or not. > > My only wish is that it should last a bit and, in my experience, hosting > > once setup works pretty good and on its own once you setup it carefully. > > But at some point something just breaks (for various reasons) and it > > needs work. So it's always rather a marathon than a sprint. > > > > If anyone wants to build something like this or so, feel free to create > > PR for the website to mention it. > Thanks Thomas but unfortunately you have given me even more questions that the Matrix site doesn't answer (that I could find) :-S > > There seems to be some misconception. Matrix is a federated protocol. > That means that there is no single instance that is the "host" of a > #geany matrix channel. > > Anyone can open such a channel, and it will propagate to any Matrix > server that "owns" clients that participate in the chat, and all of > those servers have the entire history. So how does a server get clients? Or perhaps its more how does a client find a server? If I want to join a channel what do I do? Who runs the servers? So its like IRC in that all conversations on the #geany channel are mixed together. But unlike IRC the servers maintain the history? > > So there is no action required to keep the channel alive, as long as > there are participating (even if idle) users. > How does the "federation" handle loss of servers? Are there IRC like net splits? Or does it handle it all better? > > If you want to write a bot to get the history on geany.org, or to serve > coffee and drinks, then that's another story. However, the protocol (and > python API for it) has been stable in my personal experience. > Oh no, how can we possibly live without beverage service ;-) Cheers Lex > > Best regards. > > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Am 15.06.21 um 23:28 schrieb Enrico Tröger: On 15.06.21 14:07, Lex Trotman wrote: On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 21:18, Peter Scholtens via Users wrote: As an FOSS project, one further requirement I would suggest is to *keep* using an open source and federated protocol. Obliging infrequent users to sign on to a developer site seems like a too high threshold to me. "To start chatting on Matrix you’ll need to sign up for a user account." -- Matrix intro So its the same thing, just a different place, users will still have to make yet another account. [...] Organisations like Mozilla and Gnome seem to be running their own servers, but as Enrico said, that will only happen for Geany if someone does it _and maintains it_ ... and not just for his suggested three weeks ;-) Exactly. If anyone wants to setup a and/or maybe even a bridge to IRC, feel free. I didn't mean to stop anyone from doing so. Maybe it will be used like IRC before or even more. Or not. My only wish is that it should last a bit and, in my experience, hosting once setup works pretty good and on its own once you setup it carefully. But at some point something just breaks (for various reasons) and it needs work. So it's always rather a marathon than a sprint. If anyone wants to build something like this or so, feel free to create PR for the website to mention it. There seems to be some misconception. Matrix is a federated protocol. That means that there is no single instance that is the "host" of a #geany matrix channel. Anyone can open such a channel, and it will propagate to any Matrix server that "owns" clients that participate in the chat, and all of those servers have the entire history. So there is no action required to keep the channel alive, as long as there are participating (even if idle) users. If you want to write a bot to get the history on geany.org, or to serve coffee and drinks, then that's another story. However, the protocol (and python API for it) has been stable in my personal experience. Best regards. ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 at 15:01, Peter C.S. Scholtens via Users wrote: > > For as far as I understand, the IRC channel #geany has to be created > first, and then secondly the Matrix bridge can connect via: > #geany:libera.chat > > So, do I have permission to create the Geany channel? Peter, I think its probably better to wait for the discussion that Enrico mentioned above, see what other people think before rushing in and having an orphan on your hands, but its up to you. Cheers Lex > > Peter S. > > > > On 15-06-2021 23:28, Enrico Tröger wrote: > > Exactly. > > If anyone wants to setup a > group> and/or maybe even a bridge to IRC, feel free. I didn't mean to > > stop anyone from doing so. Maybe it will be used like IRC before or even > > more. Or not. > > > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
For as far as I understand, the IRC channel #geany has to be created first, and then secondly the Matrix bridge can connect via: #geany:libera.chat So, do I have permission to create the Geany channel? Peter S. On 15-06-2021 23:28, Enrico Tröger wrote: > Exactly. > If anyone wants to setup a group> and/or maybe even a bridge to IRC, feel free. I didn't mean to > stop anyone from doing so. Maybe it will be used like IRC before or even > more. Or not. ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 15.06.21 23:17, Enrico Tröger wrote: > On 15.06.21 03:22, Lex Trotman wrote: >> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 10:37, Lex Trotman wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 09:33, Matthew Brush wrote: On 2021-06-14 12:08 a.m., Dominic Hopf via Users wrote: > I suggest to just head over to libera.chat with our channels as well. Just > did that for example with #openrheinruhr two weeks ago or so. > Just don't put a notice in the channel topic else it might get hijacked[0]. >>> >>> Yeah. >>> >>> Freenode just kicked everybody off and requires re-registering, so I >>> think [0] has already happened. I'm not gonna bother. >> >> Oh, its now "the new freenode" and won't connect until I re-register >> the nic, I'm afraid this kind of BS games means I'm out as far as IRC >> goes. >> >> (Not so)Cheers > > :( > I have to agree so much. > > >>> Enrico, I suggest the website should remove mention of IRC and point >>> questions to github discussions since it is already set up. At least >>> until something else is arranged > > I've prepared the website update: > https://github.com/geany/www.geany.org/pull/30 > > I'm going to merge this soon, probably on Saturday or Sunday. > For now, we would remove IRC altogether from the website without any > replacement. Forgot to mention, I would also add a news item on the website to make the removal more visible. ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 15.06.21 14:07, Lex Trotman wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 21:18, Peter Scholtens via Users > wrote: >> >> As an FOSS project, one further requirement I would suggest is to *keep* >> using an open source and federated protocol. Obliging infrequent users to >> sign on to a developer site seems like a too high threshold to me. > > "To start chatting on Matrix you’ll need to sign up for a user > account." -- Matrix intro > > So its the same thing, just a different place, users will still have > to make yet another account. > > [...] > > Organisations like Mozilla and Gnome seem to be running their own > servers, but as Enrico said, that will only happen for Geany if > someone does it _and maintains it_ ... and not just for his suggested > three weeks ;-) Exactly. If anyone wants to setup a and/or maybe even a bridge to IRC, feel free. I didn't mean to stop anyone from doing so. Maybe it will be used like IRC before or even more. Or not. My only wish is that it should last a bit and, in my experience, hosting once setup works pretty good and on its own once you setup it carefully. But at some point something just breaks (for various reasons) and it needs work. So it's always rather a marathon than a sprint. If anyone wants to build something like this or so, feel free to create PR for the website to mention it. > And I still do not believe chat is a good support tool anyway, IRC or > Matrix or whatever. For things like release discussions, yeah its > fine, all the participants are planned to be available at once, but > its poor for support, questions go unanswered because nobody knows, or > possibly even worse well meaning people give bad advice, until someone > who knows happens along, by which time the OP has left. These are all arguments for Github discussions (or something like this). I agree IRC or chat in general are not that suited for general support, at least not in the current setup of the Geany project with Lex being our only support expert. Regards, Enrico ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 15.06.21 03:22, Lex Trotman wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 10:37, Lex Trotman wrote: >> >> On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 09:33, Matthew Brush wrote: >>> >>> On 2021-06-14 12:08 a.m., Dominic Hopf via Users wrote: I suggest to just head over to libera.chat with our channels as well. Just did that for example with #openrheinruhr two weeks ago or so. >>> >>> Just don't put a notice in the channel topic else it might get hijacked[0]. >>> >> >> Yeah. >> >> Freenode just kicked everybody off and requires re-registering, so I >> think [0] has already happened. I'm not gonna bother. > > Oh, its now "the new freenode" and won't connect until I re-register > the nic, I'm afraid this kind of BS games means I'm out as far as IRC > goes. > > (Not so)Cheers :( I have to agree so much. >> Enrico, I suggest the website should remove mention of IRC and point >> questions to github discussions since it is already set up. At least >> until something else is arranged I've prepared the website update: https://github.com/geany/www.geany.org/pull/30 I'm going to merge this soon, probably on Saturday or Sunday. For now, we would remove IRC altogether from the website without any replacement. We could add Github discussions but this can be discussed before in contrary to the already somewhat "hijacked" Freenode IRC channels. Regards, Enrico ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 21:18, Peter Scholtens via Users wrote: > > As an FOSS project, one further requirement I would suggest is to *keep* > using an open source and federated protocol. Obliging infrequent users to > sign on to a developer site seems like a too high threshold to me. "To start chatting on Matrix you’ll need to sign up for a user account." -- Matrix intro So its the same thing, just a different place, users will still have to make yet another account. Or go to chat.mozilla.org and you get "sign in". > The Matrix protocol is practically proven by the reference implementation of > Element, which can run as App and as webclient. Other Matrix clients exist: > https://matrix.org/clients > Organisations like Gnome and Mozilla have switched to Matrix, to give some > examples. The Matrix website seems to me to be totally navel gazing, all wrapped up in its own world, protocols and so on, and not at all interested in the users. AFAICT from a simple peruse its all in one conversation. I presume it isn't, but its not clear in the intro documentation how to set up a and how to get people to find it. Organisations like Mozilla and Gnome seem to be running their own servers, but as Enrico said, that will only happen for Geany if someone does it _and maintains it_ ... and not just for his suggested three weeks ;-) And I still do not believe chat is a good support tool anyway, IRC or Matrix or whatever. For things like release discussions, yeah its fine, all the participants are planned to be available at once, but its poor for support, questions go unanswered because nobody knows, or possibly even worse well meaning people give bad advice, until someone who knows happens along, by which time the OP has left. Cheers Lex > > Peter Sch. > > > 15 jun. 2021 12:47:05 Lex Trotman : > > > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 17:44, Thomas Martitz wrote: > >> > >> Am 15.06.21 um 08:35 schrieb Lex Trotman: > >>> > >>> As I said above, IM of any sort is only really useful if enough people > >>> are in the same time zone, and actually participating, but for a > >>> project with low participation by "experts" it is a poor support > >>> mechanism. > >>> > >>> Although maybe it is useful for the folks cooperating doing releases > >>> (whatever happened to 1.38 BTW?) > >>> > >> > >> Well, at least with IM chat rooms you automatically get the history to > >> your clients while you went away, in that regard it's no worse than > >> email or github. > > > > Hmmm, possibly, as I've never used it I don't know how well it might > > work for support. > > > > It is also nice that github, discourse, zulip etc keep conversations > > together, does it do that or mix them up like IRC does? > > > > Anyhow whatever we decide, we need something that supports clients > > without effort (like a browser not a specific client) and needs no > > admin/maintenance effort since the Geany organisation has none > > available as Enrico pointed out above. > > > > Cheers > > Lex > > > >> > >> Time zones is a general problem which cannot be solved. > >> > >> > >> Best regards. > >> > >> ___ > >> Users mailing list > >> Users@lists.geany.org > >> https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > > ___ > > Users mailing list > > Users@lists.geany.org > > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
As an FOSS project, one further requirement I would suggest is to *keep* using an open source and federated protocol. Obliging infrequent users to sign on to a developer site seems like a too high threshold to me. The Matrix protocol is practically proven by the reference implementation of Element, which can run as App and as webclient. Other Matrix clients exist: https://matrix.org/clients Organisations like Gnome and Mozilla have switched to Matrix, to give some examples. Peter Sch. 15 jun. 2021 12:47:05 Lex Trotman : > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 17:44, Thomas Martitz wrote: >> >> Am 15.06.21 um 08:35 schrieb Lex Trotman: >>> >>> As I said above, IM of any sort is only really useful if enough people >>> are in the same time zone, and actually participating, but for a >>> project with low participation by "experts" it is a poor support >>> mechanism. >>> >>> Although maybe it is useful for the folks cooperating doing releases >>> (whatever happened to 1.38 BTW?) >>> >> >> Well, at least with IM chat rooms you automatically get the history to >> your clients while you went away, in that regard it's no worse than >> email or github. > > Hmmm, possibly, as I've never used it I don't know how well it might > work for support. > > It is also nice that github, discourse, zulip etc keep conversations > together, does it do that or mix them up like IRC does? > > Anyhow whatever we decide, we need something that supports clients > without effort (like a browser not a specific client) and needs no > admin/maintenance effort since the Geany organisation has none > available as Enrico pointed out above. > > Cheers > Lex > >> >> Time zones is a general problem which cannot be solved. >> >> >> Best regards. >> >> ___ >> Users mailing list >> Users@lists.geany.org >> https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 17:44, Thomas Martitz wrote: > > Am 15.06.21 um 08:35 schrieb Lex Trotman: > > > > As I said above, IM of any sort is only really useful if enough people > > are in the same time zone, and actually participating, but for a > > project with low participation by "experts" it is a poor support > > mechanism. > > > > Although maybe it is useful for the folks cooperating doing releases > > (whatever happened to 1.38 BTW?) > > > > Well, at least with IM chat rooms you automatically get the history to > your clients while you went away, in that regard it's no worse than > email or github. Hmmm, possibly, as I've never used it I don't know how well it might work for support. It is also nice that github, discourse, zulip etc keep conversations together, does it do that or mix them up like IRC does? Anyhow whatever we decide, we need something that supports clients without effort (like a browser not a specific client) and needs no admin/maintenance effort since the Geany organisation has none available as Enrico pointed out above. Cheers Lex > > Time zones is a general problem which cannot be solved. > > > Best regards. > > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Am 15.06.21 um 08:35 schrieb Lex Trotman: As I said above, IM of any sort is only really useful if enough people are in the same time zone, and actually participating, but for a project with low participation by "experts" it is a poor support mechanism. Although maybe it is useful for the folks cooperating doing releases (whatever happened to 1.38 BTW?) Well, at least with IM chat rooms you automatically get the history to your clients while you went away, in that regard it's no worse than email or github. Time zones is a general problem which cannot be solved. Best regards. ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 15:45, Thomas Martitz wrote: > > Am 14.06.21 um 23:30 schrieb Enrico Tröger: > > Hi, > > > >> Instead of quitting one could try IRC combined with the Matrix > >> protocol bridge. This creates a very low threshold to ask questions > >> (IRC on liberal.chat), while keeping the possibility to interact > >> later even on the phone with the Element app. > > It would require someone who is doing the setup and ideally also > > maintain for more than three weeks. > > Though if someone really wants to do it and there is actually a use for > > it, why not. > > > Well we could ditch IRC and bridging entirely and go for Matrix (and ML > + github) entirely. I'm using Matrix for personal communication lately > and I'm amazed. I have setup a home server and also experimented a bit > with scripting bots. > > In my past experience, key developers aren't even participating in IRC > anymore so it's next to useless for me. I wouldn't give up on an > "social" option yet where you can also discuss non-technical topics from > time to time but I'm not attached to IRC really. As I said above, IM of any sort is only really useful if enough people are in the same time zone, and actually participating, but for a project with low participation by "experts" it is a poor support mechanism. Although maybe it is useful for the folks cooperating doing releases (whatever happened to 1.38 BTW?) Cheers Lex > > Best regards. > > > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Am 14.06.21 um 23:30 schrieb Enrico Tröger: Hi, Instead of quitting one could try IRC combined with the Matrix protocol bridge. This creates a very low threshold to ask questions (IRC on liberal.chat), while keeping the possibility to interact later even on the phone with the Element app. It would require someone who is doing the setup and ideally also maintain for more than three weeks. Though if someone really wants to do it and there is actually a use for it, why not. Well we could ditch IRC and bridging entirely and go for Matrix (and ML + github) entirely. I'm using Matrix for personal communication lately and I'm amazed. I have setup a home server and also experimented a bit with scripting bots. In my past experience, key developers aren't even participating in IRC anymore so it's next to useless for me. I wouldn't give up on an "social" option yet where you can also discuss non-technical topics from time to time but I'm not attached to IRC really. Best regards. ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 10:37, Lex Trotman wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 09:33, Matthew Brush wrote: > > > > On 2021-06-14 12:08 a.m., Dominic Hopf via Users wrote: > > > I suggest to just head over to libera.chat with our channels as well. Just > > > did that for example with #openrheinruhr two weeks ago or so. > > > > > > > Just don't put a notice in the channel topic else it might get hijacked[0]. > > > > Yeah. > > Freenode just kicked everybody off and requires re-registering, so I > think [0] has already happened. I'm not gonna bother. Oh, its now "the new freenode" and won't connect until I re-register the nic, I'm afraid this kind of BS games means I'm out as far as IRC goes. (Not so)Cheers Lex > > Enrico, I suggest the website should remove mention of IRC and point > questions to github discussions since it is already set up. At least > until something else is arranged > > IM(NS)HO IRC is not suitable for developer or user communications when > everybody is in different time zones, it sucks for that. > > Cheers > Lex > > > Regards, > > Matthew Brush > > > > [0]: https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/26/freenode_irc_takeover/ > > > > > Regards, > > > Dominic > > > > > > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:55 PM Enrico Tröger > > > wrote: > > > > > >> On 13.06.21 20:41, Frank Lanitz wrote: > > >>> Hi folks, > > >>> > > >>> I'm sorry -- not much time lately … > > >>> A friend brought to my attention that there have been some unfunny > > >>> events at freenode-network where our chat is also hosted at the moment. > > >>> To be honest I did not yet follow this topic up and really lagging > > >>> details (Anyone can give up some details here?) -- I want to ask for the > > >>> future of the IRC chat? What do you think? > > >> > > >> Xfce and Django projects (just picked those two based on personal > > >> preferences) moved to https://libera.chat: > > >> https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2021-June/037352.html > > >> > > >> I guess this would be an option for us as well. > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> Enrico > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Get my GPG key from https://www.uvena.de/pub.asc > > >> ___ > > >> Users mailing list > > >> Users@lists.geany.org > > >> https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > > >> > > > > > > > > > ___ > > > Users mailing list > > > Users@lists.geany.org > > > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > > > > > > > ___ > > Users mailing list > > Users@lists.geany.org > > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On Tue, 15 Jun 2021 at 09:33, Matthew Brush wrote: > > On 2021-06-14 12:08 a.m., Dominic Hopf via Users wrote: > > I suggest to just head over to libera.chat with our channels as well. Just > > did that for example with #openrheinruhr two weeks ago or so. > > > > Just don't put a notice in the channel topic else it might get hijacked[0]. > Yeah. Freenode just kicked everybody off and requires re-registering, so I think [0] has already happened. I'm not gonna bother. Enrico, I suggest the website should remove mention of IRC and point questions to github discussions since it is already set up. At least until something else is arranged IM(NS)HO IRC is not suitable for developer or user communications when everybody is in different time zones, it sucks for that. Cheers Lex > Regards, > Matthew Brush > > [0]: https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/26/freenode_irc_takeover/ > > > Regards, > > Dominic > > > > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:55 PM Enrico Tröger > > wrote: > > > >> On 13.06.21 20:41, Frank Lanitz wrote: > >>> Hi folks, > >>> > >>> I'm sorry -- not much time lately … > >>> A friend brought to my attention that there have been some unfunny > >>> events at freenode-network where our chat is also hosted at the moment. > >>> To be honest I did not yet follow this topic up and really lagging > >>> details (Anyone can give up some details here?) -- I want to ask for the > >>> future of the IRC chat? What do you think? > >> > >> Xfce and Django projects (just picked those two based on personal > >> preferences) moved to https://libera.chat: > >> https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2021-June/037352.html > >> > >> I guess this would be an option for us as well. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Enrico > >> > >> -- > >> Get my GPG key from https://www.uvena.de/pub.asc > >> ___ > >> Users mailing list > >> Users@lists.geany.org > >> https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > >> > > > > > > ___ > > Users mailing list > > Users@lists.geany.org > > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > > > > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 2021-06-14 12:08 a.m., Dominic Hopf via Users wrote: I suggest to just head over to libera.chat with our channels as well. Just did that for example with #openrheinruhr two weeks ago or so. Just don't put a notice in the channel topic else it might get hijacked[0]. Regards, Matthew Brush [0]: https://www.theregister.com/2021/05/26/freenode_irc_takeover/ Regards, Dominic On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:55 PM Enrico Tröger wrote: On 13.06.21 20:41, Frank Lanitz wrote: Hi folks, I'm sorry -- not much time lately … A friend brought to my attention that there have been some unfunny events at freenode-network where our chat is also hosted at the moment. To be honest I did not yet follow this topic up and really lagging details (Anyone can give up some details here?) -- I want to ask for the future of the IRC chat? What do you think? Xfce and Django projects (just picked those two based on personal preferences) moved to https://libera.chat: https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2021-June/037352.html I guess this would be an option for us as well. Regards, Enrico -- Get my GPG key from https://www.uvena.de/pub.asc ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Hi, > Instead of quitting one could try IRC combined with the Matrix protocol > bridge. This creates a very low threshold to ask questions (IRC on > liberal.chat), while keeping the possibility to interact later even on the > phone with the Element app. It would require someone who is doing the setup and ideally also maintain for more than three weeks. Though if someone really wants to do it and there is actually a use for it, why not. >> Maybe its time to quit IRC totally, its rarely used and no devs "hang >> out" there much now anyway. >> >> Redirect the few questions to github discussions or a free discourse >> somewhere. Do it in a browser and then smartphones and other >> platforms are possible. And with these previous conversations are >> visible without having to read "backlog" in a different place, so >> questioners can even see previous answers (gasp horror how modern!!!). Sounds very reasonable to me, especially from one who regularly supports our users in different media. I just a had quick look at the IRC of the last months and it is indeed very quiet. Shutting it down would remove some maintenance scripts and most importantly the very old and outdated IRC bot software... I don't have any experience with Github discussions yet but it might be worth a try. Still one more area where we couple with Github but I guess this doesn't make so much difference anymore (meaning if we have to migrate to another service, it doesn't matter much if we move the discussions as well). >> And one less password and broken autostart of hexchat. :) Regards, Enrico ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Instead of quitting one could try IRC combined with the Matrix protocol bridge. This creates a very low threshold to ask questions (IRC on liberal.chat), while keeping the possibility to interact later even on the phone with the Element app. Peter Scholtens 14 jun. 2021 09:24:29 Lex Trotman : > Maybe its time to quit IRC totally, its rarely used and no devs "hang > out" there much now anyway. > > Redirect the few questions to github discussions or a free discourse > somewhere. Do it in a browser and then smartphones and other > platforms are possible. And with these previous conversations are > visible without having to read "backlog" in a different place, so > questioners can even see previous answers (gasp horror how modern!!!). > > And one less password and broken autostart of hexchat. > > Cheers > Lex > > On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 17:09, Dominic Hopf via Users > wrote: >> >> I suggest to just head over to libera.chat with our channels as well. Just >> did that for example with #openrheinruhr two weeks ago or so. >> >> Regards, >> Dominic >> >> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:55 PM Enrico Tröger >> wrote: >>> >>> On 13.06.21 20:41, Frank Lanitz wrote: Hi folks, I'm sorry -- not much time lately … A friend brought to my attention that there have been some unfunny events at freenode-network where our chat is also hosted at the moment. To be honest I did not yet follow this topic up and really lagging details (Anyone can give up some details here?) -- I want to ask for the future of the IRC chat? What do you think? >>> >>> Xfce and Django projects (just picked those two based on personal >>> preferences) moved to https://libera.chat: >>> https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2021-June/037352.html >>> >>> I guess this would be an option for us as well. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Enrico >>> >>> -- >>> Get my GPG key from https://www.uvena.de/pub.asc >>> ___ >>> Users mailing list >>> Users@lists.geany.org >>> https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users >> >> ___ >> Users mailing list >> Users@lists.geany.org >> https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
Maybe its time to quit IRC totally, its rarely used and no devs "hang out" there much now anyway. Redirect the few questions to github discussions or a free discourse somewhere. Do it in a browser and then smartphones and other platforms are possible. And with these previous conversations are visible without having to read "backlog" in a different place, so questioners can even see previous answers (gasp horror how modern!!!). And one less password and broken autostart of hexchat. Cheers Lex On Mon, 14 Jun 2021 at 17:09, Dominic Hopf via Users wrote: > > I suggest to just head over to libera.chat with our channels as well. Just > did that for example with #openrheinruhr two weeks ago or so. > > Regards, > Dominic > > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:55 PM Enrico Tröger > wrote: >> >> On 13.06.21 20:41, Frank Lanitz wrote: >> > Hi folks, >> > >> > I'm sorry -- not much time lately … >> > A friend brought to my attention that there have been some unfunny >> > events at freenode-network where our chat is also hosted at the moment. >> > To be honest I did not yet follow this topic up and really lagging >> > details (Anyone can give up some details here?) -- I want to ask for the >> > future of the IRC chat? What do you think? >> >> Xfce and Django projects (just picked those two based on personal >> preferences) moved to https://libera.chat: >> https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2021-June/037352.html >> >> I guess this would be an option for us as well. >> >> Regards, >> Enrico >> >> -- >> Get my GPG key from https://www.uvena.de/pub.asc >> ___ >> Users mailing list >> Users@lists.geany.org >> https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
I suggest to just head over to libera.chat with our channels as well. Just did that for example with #openrheinruhr two weeks ago or so. Regards, Dominic On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:55 PM Enrico Tröger wrote: > On 13.06.21 20:41, Frank Lanitz wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > I'm sorry -- not much time lately … > > A friend brought to my attention that there have been some unfunny > > events at freenode-network where our chat is also hosted at the moment. > > To be honest I did not yet follow this topic up and really lagging > > details (Anyone can give up some details here?) -- I want to ask for the > > future of the IRC chat? What do you think? > > Xfce and Django projects (just picked those two based on personal > preferences) moved to https://libera.chat: > https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2021-June/037352.html > > I guess this would be an option for us as well. > > Regards, > Enrico > > -- > Get my GPG key from https://www.uvena.de/pub.asc > ___ > Users mailing list > Users@lists.geany.org > https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users > ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Re: [Geany-Users] Future of the IRC ...
On 13.06.21 20:41, Frank Lanitz wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm sorry -- not much time lately … > A friend brought to my attention that there have been some unfunny > events at freenode-network where our chat is also hosted at the moment. > To be honest I did not yet follow this topic up and really lagging > details (Anyone can give up some details here?) -- I want to ask for the > future of the IRC chat? What do you think? Xfce and Django projects (just picked those two based on personal preferences) moved to https://libera.chat: https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2021-June/037352.html I guess this would be an option for us as well. Regards, Enrico -- Get my GPG key from https://www.uvena.de/pub.asc ___ Users mailing list Users@lists.geany.org https://lists.geany.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
