Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Hi Chris Configuring Tomcat logging is usually easy: if you accept the default configuration, you get catalina.out (stdout), plus some daily-rolled files that are all defined in logging.properties. The logging.properties file contains configuration and documentation that are helpful if you're willing to read through it and connect point A (the named logger like org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.[Catalina].[localhost].[/webappname]) to the configured logger that includes a filename. I tried asking this in other posts, but with no sucess. Can you tell me how to get rid of all log messages in catalina.out (besides the system.out) and just create a roteable tomcat.log? I tried the solution at: http://minaret.biz/tips/tomcatLogging.html#tomcat_5_5_logging Which is the same as int he log4j section of the http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-5.5-doc/logging.html What happens for me is that catalina.out will receive all the logs levels as especified per application, and the tomcat.log will get as especified in the log4j configuration in the common/classes. Is there a way to eliminate the log4j messages in the catalina.out? PS: sorry if I got a bit especific here, just a bit frustrated with the log in tomcat. regards Emerson - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Appeal to Tomcat developers
Dear Tomcat developers, this is a humble appeal. I know I have in the past been over the top on this subject, and for that I apologise. The appeal is about Tomcat logging. I will venture a few risky bets : 1) for every Tomcat used in a development context, there are 100 used in a production environment 2) for every Tomcat developer, there are 1000 Tomcat users 3) for at least 900 out of these 1000 Tomcat users, the current way to configure/manage Tomcat logging is too difficult to understand From earlier Tomcat expert's messages here, I understand that the previous logging methods were technically flawed, and that the new methods, technically, are far superior. But from tens of user's messages on this list, it is clear that in terms of setup and configuration, the new methods are too complicated, and the available documentation is too obscure for most of the Tomcat users that are not themselves Java or Tomcat experts. I realise that this may not be a very exciting subject to work on for a Tomcat developer. Tomcat is a nice package, appreciated by many. But I fear that the mere complexity of controlling the logging may deter a number of users and system administrators from using it, or from liking it. And that is probably not an outcome that any Tomcat developer would like either. I would offer to help, but I can't, because I am not capable of it. I am basically a support and system admin guy in a small company, and I handle a dozen systems with several hundred packages on it. My highest Java achievement is a servlet filter, and even there I copied most of the lines from examples I found. Of the dozen Tomcats I handle at the sysadmin level, none are the official distribution. There are many reasons for that, the main one being that most of the systems on which we manage applications do not belong to us but to customers, and they decide what they install and according to which rules. Basically thus, what I am saying is that 90% of Tomcat sysadmins and users have to live with the Tomcat they get, and the Tomcat they get, in terms of logging, is not understandable to them, and that it makes them uncomfortable. André - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
- Original Message - From: André Warnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Appeal to Tomcat developers Dear Tomcat developers, this is a humble appeal. I know I have in the past been over the top on this subject, and for that I apologise. The appeal is about Tomcat logging. I will venture a few risky bets : 1) for every Tomcat used in a development context, there are 100 used in a production environment 2) for every Tomcat developer, there are 1000 Tomcat users 3) for at least 900 out of these 1000 Tomcat users, the current way to configure/manage Tomcat logging is too difficult to understand I think you just anti tomcat... you got a bad attitude ;) You always ask so nicely, how can they refuse you ;) Andre I feel the same way... Tomcat is magic, but I think the logging sucks. You on linux, wait till you on windows and the file wont even opne because TC is using it. And files that carry date stamps... makes it difficult to find stuff and tell another program to use it, it doesnt even know the name. The thing that has alway amazed me... we use JMX, we have this complex logging engine, but tomcat is a big powerful web server... is it only me, but how come that cant be presented as a web page you just address /myserver/manager/logs Or /myserver/manager/JMXStuff I also think its a missed opportunity... its like you built a ferrari, but still use a wheel barrow to go get stuff from the shop... if you know what I mean. ... theres probably a good reason for it but yes +1 --- HARBOR : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/index.htm The most powerful application server on earth. The only real POJO Application Server. See it in Action : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/cd_tut_swf/whatisejb1.htm --- If you cant pay in gold... get lost... http://coolharbor.100free.com/debt/usadebt.htm - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
- Original Message - From: Johnny Kewl [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers - Original Message - From: André Warnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Appeal to Tomcat developers Dear Tomcat developers, this is a humble appeal. I know I have in the past been over the top on this subject, and for that I apologise. The appeal is about Tomcat logging. I will venture a few risky bets : 1) for every Tomcat used in a development context, there are 100 used in a production environment 2) for every Tomcat developer, there are 1000 Tomcat users 3) for at least 900 out of these 1000 Tomcat users, the current way to configure/manage Tomcat logging is too difficult to understand BTW Andre, its not just a TC thing, its the whole Java logging thing, its unduely complex, so I actually think TC inhereted Java's logging history. If you know how to make a little singleton, its really is not difficult adding a little logging to your servlets, with a tiny little 30 line class. That also displays as a HTML page... thats what we do... --- HARBOR : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/index.htm The most powerful application server on earth. The only real POJO Application Server. See it in Action : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/cd_tut_swf/whatisejb1.htm --- If you cant pay in gold... get lost... http://coolharbor.100free.com/debt/usadebt.htm - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Appeal to Tomcat developers
From: André Warnier [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From earlier Tomcat expert's messages here, I understand that the previous logging methods were technically flawed, and that the new methods, technically, are far superior. But from tens of user's messages on this list, it is clear that in terms of setup and configuration, the new methods are too complicated, and the available documentation is too obscure for most of the Tomcat users that are not themselves Java or Tomcat experts. What would you change? - Peter - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:48 PM, David kerber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show stopper for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the level of the application and administrator level, and especially doesn't give enough examples of the different methods of logging. I have looked at it extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and couldn't easily figure out how to configure logging to keep my app's log writes separate from Tomcat's without lots of experimentation (which didn't have time for), so I just left *everything* going to stdout. Not the preferred method, I know, but how to configure it otherwise was not clear enough for me. Dave I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications? Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects, starting with log4j as the most prominent. http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html Leon - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Hm, I guess I disagree. Tomcat is using / supporting the standard logging-features from Java, and I think this is the way it should be. If the Java Community decides for a new way of logging, TC may implement it. For us, we just configure TC to use log4j, and it works like charm. Sure, it's no out-of-the-box-software and you'll have to read up a few things, but this is the case for most components (i.e. Hibernate, Struts etc.). When talking about real world-applications in the industry, in banks (a few are still operating), insurance-companies etc., you need a very specific logging and it should be highly customizable. Therefore, the given solutions a quite good. Sure, maybe a bit overloaded for a small company's webapp, however, they can stick to the default logging behaviour. Cheers Gregor -- what's puzzlin' you, is the nature of my game gpgp-fp: 79A84FA526807026795E4209D3B3FE028B3170B2 gpgp-key available @ http://pgpkeys.pca.dfn.de:11371 - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
David kerber wrote: For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show stopper for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the level of the application and administrator level, and especially doesn't give enough examples of the different methods of logging. I have looked at it extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and couldn't easily figure out how to configure logging to keep my app's log writes separate from Tomcat's without lots of experimentation (which didn't have time for), so I just left *everything* going to stdout. Not the preferred method, I know, but how to configure it otherwise was not clear enough for me. It's not Tomcat's fault. Sometimes you have to deal with webapp that uses some custom loggin solution (not to mention System.out). In some part it's general Java issue. What I would like best is possibility to change logging levels (I use log4j) on the fly. Using e.g. JMX. -- Mikolaj Rydzewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Leon Rosenberg wrote: On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:48 PM, David kerber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show stopper for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the level of the application and administrator level, and especially doesn't give enough examples of the different methods of logging. I have looked at it extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and couldn't easily figure out how to configure logging to keep my app's log writes separate from Tomcat's without lots of experimentation (which didn't have time for), so I just left *everything* going to stdout. Not the preferred method, I know, but how to configure it otherwise was not clear enough for me. Dave I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications? Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects, starting with log4j as the most prominent. http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html Yes, system.out, and that is my point: I have looked at the log4j docs extensively, and could not figure out how to use it without investing more time than I had available. There either weren't enough practical examples, or not enough detailed instructions. Essentially I'm agreeing with the OP that either configuring it is too complex, or the docs don't make it clear how to do it simply. I'm not sure which is really the problem, but I suspect it's the docs rather than the process itself. D - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Martin Gainty wrote: logging is as easy with SimpleLog http://commons.apache.org/logging/commons-logging-1.1.1/guide.html#A%20Quick%20Guide%20To%20Simple%20Log How long as SimpleLog been around? I don't recall ever seeing it before... D or as complex http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-6.0-doc/logging.html as you configure Martin __ Disclaimer and confidentiality note Everything in this e-mail and any attachments relates to the official business of Sender. This transmission is of a confidential nature and Sender does not endorse distribution to any party other than intended recipient. Sender does not necessarily endorse content contained within this transmission. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@tomcat.apache.org Subject: Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:10:58 +0200 - Original Message - From: Johnny Kewl [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers - Original Message - From: André Warnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Appeal to Tomcat developers Dear Tomcat developers, this is a humble appeal. I know I have in the past been over the top on this subject, and for that I apologise. The appeal is about Tomcat logging. I will venture a few risky bets : 1) for every Tomcat used in a development context, there are 100 used in a production environment 2) for every Tomcat developer, there are 1000 Tomcat users 3) for at least 900 out of these 1000 Tomcat users, the current way to configure/manage Tomcat logging is too difficult to understand BTW Andre, its not just a TC thing, its the whole Java logging thing, its unduely complex, so I actually think TC inhereted Java's logging history. If you know how to make a little singleton, its really is not difficult adding a little logging to your servlets, with a tiny little 30 line class. That also displays as a HTML page... thats what we do... - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:06 PM, David kerber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Leon Rosenberg wrote:
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 2:48 PM, David kerber [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
For my part, I generally agree with the OP. Specifically, the show
stopper
for me is that the documentation isn't detailed enough at the level of
the
application and administrator level, and especially doesn't give enough
examples of the different methods of logging. I have looked at it
extensively while reworking the app I inherited, and couldn't easily
figure
out how to configure logging to keep my app's log writes separate from
Tomcat's without lots of experimentation (which didn't have time for), so
I
just left *everything* going to stdout. Not the preferred method, I
know,
but how to configure it otherwise was not clear enough for me.
Dave
I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications?
Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects,
starting with
log4j as the most prominent.
http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html
Yes, system.out, and that is my point: I have looked at the log4j docs
extensively, and could not figure out how to use it without investing more
time than I had available. There either weren't enough practical examples,
or not enough detailed instructions.
Essentially I'm agreeing with the OP that either configuring it is too
complex, or the docs don't make it clear how to do it simply. I'm not sure
which is really the problem, but I suspect it's the docs rather than the
process itself.
D
Errm, I'm sorry, but how is that related to tomcat?
Basically you have to add one line to your class to use log4j:
private static Logger log = Logger.getLogger(CurrentClassName.class);
now anywhere in the class just do :
log.info(message);
or
try{
do_something();
}catch(Exception e){
log.error(methodname(+parameters+), e);
}
You need to more things to configure it properly, one of them is
nearly done automatically, but to be sure just create a context
listener and add to contextinitialization:
DOMConfigurator.configureAndWatch(pathtolog4j.xml)
and now an example for the log4j xml
appender name=ErrorAppender
class=org.apache.log4j.RollingFileAppender
param name=File value=logs/error.log /
param name=Threshold value=ERROR /
param name=MaxFileSize value=100MB /
param name=MaxBackupIndex value=5 /
layout class=org.apache.log4j.PatternLayout
param name=ConversionPattern
value=%r %d{ISO8601} %-5p %c - %m%n/
/layout
/appender
logger name=com.bla.your.package additivity=true
level value=ERROR/
appender-ref ref=ErrorAppender/
/logger
and so on...
read docs on more :-)
Leon
-
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Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Leon Rosenberg wrote: [...] I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications? Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects, starting with log4j as the most prominent. http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html With utmost respect, Leon, but this is Off-Topic. (and even more so is you next post) In my original post (and I apologise if this was not clear enough), I am specifically trying to speak for the sysadmin / average Tomcat user, and appealing to experts (such as you probably), to help make it simpler for these people to use and configure Tomcat. Please. I have no doubt that for experts, the logging as it is now is probably clear, effective, efficient, flexible and everything you would ask for. log4j is a beautiful package, but it is a monster, requiring deep Java knowledge, and even so, many hours of dedicated work to dominate. From the look of it, Commons Logging is a similar piece of cake. No doubt that for someone who mainly does Java programming for a living, it is worth the effort. But many (the majority ?) of Tomcat users and administrators do not have that time, at least not for that package alone, when they simultaneously have to learn a little bit of many other packages. That does not mean that they don't like Tomcat, at least not yet. Or else, shall we say up front that Tomcat is a development tool, to be used exclusively by Java and Tomcat programming specialists, and not in production environments ? - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Andre, In regards to contacting IS people (not developers or specialists) who use Tomcat in production environments, please contact me off-list. I think I can help to point you in the right direction and get you access to the resources you are requesting. Thank you, Stephen Caine CommonGround Softworks, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] In my original post (and I apologise if this was not clear enough), I am specifically trying to speak for the sysadmin / average Tomcat user, and appealing to experts (such as you probably), to help make it simpler for these people to use and configure Tomcat. Please. I have no doubt that for experts, the logging as it is now is probably clear, effective, efficient, flexible and everything you would ask for. log4j is a beautiful package, but it is a monster, requiring deep Java knowledge, and even so, many hours of dedicated work to dominate. From the look of it, Commons Logging is a similar piece of cake. No doubt that for someone who mainly does Java programming for a living, it is worth the effort. But many (the majority ?) of Tomcat users and administrators do not have that time, at least not for that package alone, when they simultaneously have to learn a little bit of many other packages. That does not mean that they don't like Tomcat, at least not yet. Or else, shall we say up front that Tomcat is a development tool, to be used exclusively by Java and Tomcat programming specialists, and not in production environments ? - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:42 PM, André Warnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leon Rosenberg wrote: [...] I am sorry, but do you always log to system.out in your applications? Maybe you should take a look at some of numerous logging projects, starting with log4j as the most prominent. http://logging.apache.org/log4j/1.2/index.html With utmost respect, Leon, but this is Off-Topic. (and even more so is you next post) yes, it is, it was a reply to an off-topic post by david :-) but it's still OT, so please accept my apologies. In my original post (and I apologise if this was not clear enough), I am specifically trying to speak for the sysadmin / average Tomcat user, and appealing to experts (such as you probably), to help make it simpler for these people to use and configure Tomcat. Please. well our (100 employees company with about 20 tomcats in production environment and many thousands of users online just as we speak) admins are well able to configure tomcat logging as they wish (mainly by using log4j configs we (developers) create and redirecting them to the syslog (an appender in log4j writing to syslog). They are no java experts and actually have no java or development background, but with some time invested in googling or asking people on lists / irc, they manage their tasks. I have no doubt that for experts, the logging as it is now is probably clear, effective, efficient, flexible and everything you would ask for. log4j is a beautiful package, but it is a monster, requiring deep Java knowledge, and even so, many hours of dedicated work to dominate. From the look of it, Commons Logging is a similar piece of cake. not really. you need about 15 minutes to start using log4j. Of course deep understanding and tuned configuration will require more time. No doubt that for someone who mainly does Java programming for a living, it is worth the effort. But many (the majority ?) of Tomcat users and administrators do not have that time, at least not for that package alone, when they simultaneously have to learn a little bit of many other packages. That does not mean that they don't like Tomcat, at least not yet. Or else, shall we say up front that Tomcat is a development tool, to be used exclusively by Java and Tomcat programming specialists, and not in production environments ? I would doubt that the majority of tomcat users (i.e. java developers) can't use logging. Its one of the first thing you need to learn on the way to become professional java developer. As for administrators, they (at least those who understand their profession) are used to read docs and tomcat logging is well documented. Besides, why would they be interested in tomcat logs, it just works and ogs are empty in production environment (at least they should be :-))) regards Leon P.S. the time you invested in this thread would probably be sufficient to learn to use log4j ;-) - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:01:30AM +0200, Johnny Kewl wrote: The thing that has alway amazed me... we use JMX, we have this complex logging engine, but tomcat is a big powerful web server... is it only me, but how come that cant be presented as a web page you just address /myserver/manager/logs Because it is waiting for YOU to write it? -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Typically when a software vendor says that a product is intuitive he means the exact opposite. pgpiNkIPIPa0f.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
There is simple, and then there is SIMPLE. The typical daemon has ONE LINE for logging configuration: log file goes there. Some might have one line for the error log and another for an activity log. Some might let you say whether to use syslog or files. If you supply NO configuration, it will probably do something totally unsurprising and reasonably useful anyway. Java app.s, on the other hand, tend to have multiple layers of log abstractions and may very well have dozens or hundreds of lines, in (a) separate configuration file(s), just to describe logging. It's great for debugging but hell for the poor sysadmin who only wants to say put the log file there. I think that's what is being asked: there should be *one page* that begins with *everything you need to know* in order to say, put the log file there. Just that. After that, it's appropriate to point out that much more subtle arrangements are available, and when you want more, come back, here are pointers to all the hairy details. -- Mark H. Wood, Lead System Programmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Typically when a software vendor says that a product is intuitive he means the exact opposite. pgpCKJcRygYZj.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: Appeal to Tomcat developers
logging is as easy with SimpleLog http://commons.apache.org/logging/commons-logging-1.1.1/guide.html#A%20Quick%20Guide%20To%20Simple%20Log or as complex http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-6.0-doc/logging.html as you configure Martin __ Disclaimer and confidentiality note Everything in this e-mail and any attachments relates to the official business of Sender. This transmission is of a confidential nature and Sender does not endorse distribution to any party other than intended recipient. Sender does not necessarily endorse content contained within this transmission. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: users@tomcat.apache.org Subject: Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:10:58 +0200 - Original Message - From: Johnny Kewl [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers - Original Message - From: André Warnier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Tomcat Users List users@tomcat.apache.org Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2008 9:23 AM Subject: Appeal to Tomcat developers Dear Tomcat developers, this is a humble appeal. I know I have in the past been over the top on this subject, and for that I apologise. The appeal is about Tomcat logging. I will venture a few risky bets : 1) for every Tomcat used in a development context, there are 100 used in a production environment 2) for every Tomcat developer, there are 1000 Tomcat users 3) for at least 900 out of these 1000 Tomcat users, the current way to configure/manage Tomcat logging is too difficult to understand BTW Andre, its not just a TC thing, its the whole Java logging thing, its unduely complex, so I actually think TC inhereted Java's logging history. If you know how to make a little singleton, its really is not difficult adding a little logging to your servlets, with a tiny little 30 line class. That also displays as a HTML page... thats what we do... --- HARBOR : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/index.htm The most powerful application server on earth. The only real POJO Application Server. See it in Action : http://www.kewlstuff.co.za/cd_tut_swf/whatisejb1.htm --- If you cant pay in gold... get lost... http://coolharbor.100free.com/debt/usadebt.htm - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ You live life beyond your PC. So now Windows goes beyond your PC. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/115298556/direct/01/
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Mark H. Wood wrote: There is simple, and then there is SIMPLE. The typical daemon has ONE LINE for logging configuration: log file goes there. Some might have one line for the error log and another for an activity log. Some might let you say whether to use syslog or files. If you supply NO configuration, it will probably do something totally unsurprising and reasonably useful anyway. Java app.s, on the other hand, tend to have multiple layers of log abstractions and may very well have dozens or hundreds of lines, in (a) separate configuration file(s), just to describe logging. It's great for debugging but hell for the poor sysadmin who only wants to say put the log file there. I think that's what is being asked: there should be *one page* that begins with *everything you need to know* in order to say, put the log file there. Just that. After that, it's appropriate to point out that much more subtle arrangements are available, and when you want more, come back, here are pointers to all the hairy details. Thank you! for the succinct description of what I've been trying (and failing miserably) to get across. D - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Appeal to Tomcat developers
I think there's a miscommunication going on. From: Leon Rosenberg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] well our [...] admins are well able to configure tomcat logging as they wish (mainly by using log4j configs we (developers) [...]). OK. So your admins have in-house developers to turn to. [...] I would doubt that the majority of tomcat users (i.e. java developers) [...] Andre's original premise is that the majority of Tomcat users are *not* Java developers. They are, instead, people who have a webapp they need to run and maintain. They have downloaded Tomcat in order to run it. I agree with Andre. I think his 90% estimate is high, but I suspect pure admins are in the majority. Certainly I think equating tomcat user with java developer is naïve. - Peter - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Mark H. Wood wrote: [...] good stuff I think that's what is being asked: there should be *one page* that begins with *everything you need to know* in order to say, put the log file there. Just that. After that, it's appropriate to point out that much more subtle arrangements are available, and when you want more, come back, here are pointers to all the hairy details. *YES* Thank you. That's what I mean with a (revisited) Logger element : have some simple attributes in it, similar to the former Tomcat 4.1 Logger, for a simple configuration. Then add a couple of attributes of the delegate to variety, for anyone who wants to make it more complicated, delicate, fine-tuned, whatever. Then give the possibility to copy and modify this Logger, and insert it into each webapp's web.xml or context.xml, to say now this one logs some other way. But if I remove this Logger from the webapp config, then it reverts to logging like its papa. I have no idea if this would be difficult, or if this is even possible or allowed with respect to Java or Servlet specs, but that's the idea, and it would be great for us Tomcat dummies if it was. Alternatively, maybe something can be done in the docs, but the problem would remain for guys like me who get the Tomcat that's there, just want to add this one small webapp, and please-also-clean-up-the-logs, and have to figure out what the hell this is all about. I have another point to add : maybe I understand this wrong, but it seems that with the current implementation, a webapp is able to decide where and how it logs, no matter what the overall server configuration says. And that seems to me like the tail wagging the dog. But again, maybe I just don't understand how it works. I admit I don't. - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
André Warnier wrote: Mark H. Wood wrote: [...] good stuff I think that's what is being asked: there should be *one page* that begins with *everything you need to know* in order to say, put the log file there. Just that. After that, it's appropriate to point out that much more subtle arrangements are available, and when you want more, come back, here are pointers to all the hairy details. *YES* Thank you. That's what I mean with a (revisited) Logger element : have some simple attributes in it, similar to the former Tomcat 4.1 Logger, for a simple configuration. Then add a couple of attributes of the delegate to variety, for anyone who wants to make it more complicated, delicate, fine-tuned, whatever. I don't think the logger element is going to make a return. However, the current configuration system isn't that different in terms of what it lets you do and allows the control you are looking for although it is more verbose and the docs could do a lot more to make things clearer. Then give the possibility to copy and modify this Logger, and insert it into each webapp's web.xml or context.xml, to say now this one logs some other way. But if I remove this Logger from the webapp config, then it reverts to logging like its papa. Replace Logger .../ element with a logging.properties file and this functionality exists now. I have no idea if this would be difficult, or if this is even possible or allowed with respect to Java or Servlet specs, but that's the idea, and it would be great for us Tomcat dummies if it was. I think, and please tell me if I am wrong, that what is missing is a simple guide to what goes in logging.properties. The current docs dive into the deep end without covering the simple stuff first. Alternatively, maybe something can be done in the docs, but the problem would remain for guys like me who get the Tomcat that's there, just want to add this one small webapp, and please-also-clean-up-the-logs, and have to figure out what the hell this is all about. Improving / restructuring / re-ordering / adding to / deleting from the content in http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-6.0-doc/logging.html is all possible. What would be useful is if you started a wiki page and set out the structure you would like to see. Don't worry about the content. I or someone else who knows the details can fill that in later. If you haven't already found them the following might give you some ideas: http://wiki.apache.org/tomcat/FAQ/Logging http://wiki.apache.org/tomcat/Logging_Tutorial in addition to the standard docs at http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-6.0-doc/logging.html I have another point to add : maybe I understand this wrong, but it seems that with the current implementation, a webapp is able to decide where and how it logs, no matter what the overall server configuration says. And that seems to me like the tail wagging the dog. But again, maybe I just don't understand how it works. I admit I don't. I think this is the root of the issue. Each web application is free to use any logging framework it likes. Tomcat has no control over the logging framework - if any - that a web application may use. In the worst case, each web application may use a different logging framework. Clearly this creates a nightmare for a system admin trying to figure out how logging works for each webapp. I think there are two ways to solve this problem, neither of them technical. The first is set an organisation wide policy as to which framework should be used. The alternative is require developers to provide documentation with their web app that explains how logging is to be configured for that application. If you do help out and start a wiki page then maybe you could include a section on web app logging and how to handle the common approaches: - write everything to stdout - log4j - java.util.logging - commons-logging Mark - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mark, Mark Thomas wrote: André Warnier wrote: I have another point to add : maybe I understand this wrong, but it seems that with the current implementation, a webapp is able to decide where and how it logs, no matter what the overall server configuration says. And that seems to me like the tail wagging the dog. But again, maybe I just don't understand how it works. I admit I don't. I think this is the root of the issue. Each web application is free to use any logging framework it likes. Tomcat has no control over the logging framework - if any - that a web application may use. I'd like to point out that when you are configuring logging for Tomcat, you're configuring /logging for Tomcat/, not for your applications. Yes, Tomcat does perform some logging on behalf of the application (things like auto-redeployment notices, webapp startup info, libraries loading, etc.) but Tomcat does not dictate any of the application-specific logs that you create. I'll give you an analogy with Apache httpd and maybe you can see what I mean. Let's say you have a PHP-based application running on Apache httpd. In httpd.conf, you have something like AccessLog /var/log/apache/access.log common This will log all HTTP accesses to the access.log file. Simple. On the other hand, your application may maintain its own log file in /var/log/myphpapp/errors.log. In that case, there is no way at all for an administrator to configure logging for your application using httpd.conf. The same is true for configuring application versus server logging in TC: logging.properties (and friends) configure the logging for the application server, and the application is free to do whatever it wants for application-specific logging. I think this logging issue is really big for folks moving from servers like httpd where logging is typically very simple (log errors or accesses, etc.). For those of us who have used Java-based logging systems in the past, this is a piece of cake. For instance, I have used log4j for years and years. log4j requires a log4j.properties file (or you can do it programmatically, but that sucks) for configuration. It's pretty simple: you define an appender (basically a message log target), give it a file name and a log level and then, in your code, you simply write to it. That's it. The complexity comes in when you want multiple appenders at different levels and you want different parts of your code (say, all org.apache.* stuff goes to one logger and com.mycompany.* goes to another). It's not really any harder to understand... it's just more of the same kind of configuration. And, the plus side is that your code doesn't get any more complex. Since each application can be configured differently (from inside the application, that is), you have to ignore them when you're talking about server logging. TC simply isn't going to say hey, webappX, your log file is /here/. The application itself makes that decision. Configuring Tomcat logging is usually easy: if you accept the default configuration, you get catalina.out (stdout), plus some daily-rolled files that are all defined in logging.properties. The logging.properties file contains configuration and documentation that are helpful if you're willing to read through it and connect point A (the named logger like org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.[Catalina].[localhost].[/webappname]) to the configured logger that includes a filename. The stock logging.properties contains configuration for, say, the 'manager' application. Want to create a new logger for your new application? Simply copy that configuration and modify the appropriate parts (one of them being the name of the logger itself, which is 3manager.org.apache.juli.FileHandler for me, and could probably have been given a more pronounceable name, but captures exactly what that logger is for). I hope that helps a bit more. - -chris -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkj3cQ0ACgkQ9CaO5/Lv0PAEpQCgtfdK7sSQ/KUgC13XucfGWZIX avgAn1qSCVodcDv2cDTu+EHlZjdabGsp =VQvK -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To start a new topic, e-mail: users@tomcat.apache.org To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Appeal to Tomcat developers
Christofer, Mark and others, I have read, collected, and will re-read, the answers I got this time. I appreciate them, because they are informative, and you took the time and pain to answer this in a way I can (at least in part) understand. Other people, in various ways, made the point better than I did, that there is a difference between a place where there are enough sysadmins that one or two can dedicate themselves to Java logging, and enough Java programmers to fall back to in case of problems, and where all web applications are written in heaven according to strict rules, and a place like the one I work at, which is anything but. A bit like the old joke with the demo hell and the real one. From the mail I am seeing, on and off-list, I gather that this is an exercise worth doing, not only for myself. I understand (now) the point made about the difference between Tomcat logging and the application's logging. The Apache/PHP comparison of Christopher was very informative. In my opinion, this point is not made clearly enough in the Tomcat logging documentation. There are also some items in that respect that are confusing in the documentation and in the properties file, because they seem to indicate the opposite. That is, to me and now, and maybe a bit more information will clear up the confusion. In my naiveté, I thought that Commons Logging meant : provide a single interface to applications for logging (a bit like system.out), and decide outside of the application what underlying system this uses and where it goes. (Maybe it is that, but that point then I haven't gotten clearly yet). I also thought or hoped, this being in the realm of Java's object-oriented and inheritance nature, that it worked like class inheritance. Don't find the method here? go one level up, that kind of thing. But, unless I am mistaken again, it looks like my hope of channeling all webapps, no matter where they came from, into writing their logs into my logfile, using my main logging.properties file that I understand, is forlorn. Or is it not, or not entirely ? Now, I would like to quote in extenso the last post from Christopher, and make some comments about what I think is clear or not. Not that this would be misinterpreted, I am just using some levity below not in a sarcastic way, but to express what I think a Tomcat and webapp mere installer like me can be expected to know or not. Start quote I'd like to point out that when you are configuring logging for Tomcat, you're configuring /logging for Tomcat/, not for your applications. Yes, Tomcat does perform some logging on behalf of the application (things like auto-redeployment notices, webapp startup info, libraries loading, etc.) but Tomcat does not dictate any of the application-specific logs that you create. ++ Very clear now, and wasn't so clear before. Not nitpicking, but I'd like to point out that I don't create the logs, its the applications that done it. I just see the logfiles popping up, I don't know what is in the applications to make these logfiles pop up and I mostly cannot look inside. ++ I'll give you an analogy with Apache httpd and maybe you can see what I mean. Let's say you have a PHP-based application running on Apache httpd. In httpd.conf, you have something like AccessLog /var/log/apache/access.log common This will log all HTTP accesses to the access.log file. Simple. On the other hand, your application may maintain its own log file in /var/log/myphpapp/errors.log. In that case, there is no way at all for an administrator to configure logging for your application using httpd.conf. ++ True, very clear, and understand the parallel with Tomcat apps, now. But this is not clear at all when reading the Tomcat on-line docs, and I think that alone creates a lot of confusion. ++ The same is true for configuring application versus server logging in TC: logging.properties (and friends) configure the logging for the application server, and the application is free to do whatever it wants for application-specific logging. ++ From an administrator's point of view, that's a pity, in my opinion. But I don't know how to summarise correctly why I believe it's a pity, so I'll leave that for later. ++ I think this logging issue is really big for folks moving from servers like httpd where logging is typically very simple (log errors or accesses, etc.). ++ True, and that is what we sysadmins are longing for. But we do not receive Tomcat that way, so we have to figure out if it is possible to make it be that way. ++ For those of us who have used Java-based logging systems in the past, this is a piece of cake. ++ I believe you. But for those of us who have not spent years using Java logging, it isn't a piece of cake, hence my plea. Have you ever seen the Rosetta Stone ? That's the tablet that allowed Champollion to start deciphering Egyptians hieroglyphs. Of course, that was only because he already knew egyptian demotic
