Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-25 Thread Leonardo Carneiro
-1


On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 7:40 PM, vbox-users vbox-us...@clevertrove.comwrote:

 And aside from that, everyone should probably be cool about everything.
  And talk about virtualbox


 That's why we should end this thread. Now. No need for further replies.

 Yes, not even you, little lurker in the corner that will read this
 tomorrow and find the urge to send his 2 cents worth of opinion. *this is a
 joke, tongue in cheeck comment, before someone else feels offended by it
 and starts an argument*. That was a joke as well.

 Life is too short to worry about silly discussions. There are better
 things to do with our collective time. Like, for instance, using Virtualbox
 to solve a problem or change the World for the better -and that includes
 saving money and power-. :)

 FC


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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-25 Thread Fernando Cassia
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Leonardo Carneiro
chesterma...@gmail.comwrote:

 -1


I'm still here, and now the only admin. When/if Pablo ever wants to return
he'll be more than welcome.

Now we can put this thread to rest. Seriously. Thanks :)
FC
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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-25 Thread Mark Ehle
I am a lurker for the most part. I just want to know - is any of this spat
going to affect VirtualBox? I really don't want to have to move to a
different virt. technology.

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Leonardo Carneiro
chesterma...@gmail.comwrote:

 -1


 On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 12:17 AM, Fernando Cassia fcas...@gmail.comwrote:


 On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 7:40 PM, vbox-users 
 vbox-us...@clevertrove.comwrote:

 And aside from that, everyone should probably be cool about everything.
  And talk about virtualbox


 That's why we should end this thread. Now. No need for further replies.

 Yes, not even you, little lurker in the corner that will read this
 tomorrow and find the urge to send his 2 cents worth of opinion. *this is a
 joke, tongue in cheeck comment, before someone else feels offended by it
 and starts an argument*. That was a joke as well.

 Life is too short to worry about silly discussions. There are better
 things to do with our collective time. Like, for instance, using Virtualbox
 to solve a problem or change the World for the better -and that includes
 saving money and power-. :)

 FC


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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-23 Thread vbox-users
 From: John A. Wallace [mailto:jw72...@verizon.net]
 
 You are way too dramatic and sensitive about constructive criticism, Pablo:

I agree with this statement.  There was no need to mention the admin hat, and 
no need to be offended by John's comment afterward, really no need for this 
thread about replacing admin.

I'll say -1 about replacing Pablo as admin.  But I'll also say Pablo, chill 
out.   ;-)

Nobody's swearing at each other, insulting each other, etc.  Things I have 
*definitely* seen on other lists.  I think this list is presently, and has 
always been as long as I know, well behaved and constructive.


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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-23 Thread Fernando Cassia
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM, John A. Wallace jw72...@verizon.netwrote:

 I meant to speak only honestly, not maliciously or
 otherwise.


OK, fair enough, let's end this thread P-L-E-A-S-E. This whole 'I said-he
said' is counterproductive.

Thanks in advance.
FC
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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-23 Thread vbox-users
 From: John A. Wallace [mailto:jw72...@verizon.net]
 
 The point of my later statement about your said admin hat was placed
 immediately within the context of, and right after the statement about, the
 subject of my thread being changed from a technical consideration of
 Windows

John, look again.  And John please chill out too.  Pablo's admin hat comment 
was in response to my comment, about ending the conversation.  My wording was 
somewhat ambiguous.  I only meant I'm dropping the topic, but the concern Pablo 
addressed was some users (me) potentially suppressing others from talking about 
what they want to talk about.  Pablo didn't want anybody saying anything 
synonymous to drop the topic or shut up.  I think Pablo was completely 
reasonable, except for the /dev/null comment.

John, you apologized for retaliating Pablo's admin hat comment.  Pablo, I think 
you might owe John an apology for the /dev/null comment.  And aside from that, 
everyone should probably be cool about everything.  And talk about virtualbox.


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[VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Pablo Sanchez
Hi everyone,

I firmly believe that if someone isn't doing the proper job, they
should be let go.

John A. Wallace stated the following about me:

 But since you have a tendency to throw that admin hat around
 when you feel like it, and it is your sandbox here, well,
 whatever.

If you believe we should infuse new blood in admin'ing this list
(meaning, I should be replaced), please respond to this thread.  All
you have to do to be counted is respond with `+1'

If 58 people (10% of the list) or more believe I should turn in my
admin hat, I will.  Let the counting being!  :)

The time limit is until the end of the weekend, Eastern time.

Cheers,
-- 
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Ph:819.459.1926 Blog:  http://pablo.blog.blueoakdb.com
Fax:   760.860.5225 (US)

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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Alexey Eromenko
-1.
As a long-term VirtualBox community member and moderator, I'd wish you to
stay.

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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread John Wordsworth
-1
As a long-time lurker and VB user, I would be more than happy for your
admin-ship to continue.

On 22 March 2013 22:23, Pablo Sanchez pa...@blueoakdb.com wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I firmly believe that if someone isn't doing the proper job, they
 should be let go.

 John A. Wallace stated the following about me:

  But since you have a tendency to throw that admin hat around
  when you feel like it, and it is your sandbox here, well,
  whatever.

 If you believe we should infuse new blood in admin'ing this list
 (meaning, I should be replaced), please respond to this thread.  All
 you have to do to be counted is respond with `+1'

 If 58 people (10% of the list) or more believe I should turn in my
 admin hat, I will.  Let the counting being!  :)

 The time limit is until the end of the weekend, Eastern time.

 Cheers,
 --
 Pablo Sanchez - Blueoak Database Engineering, Inc
 Ph:819.459.1926 Blog:  http://pablo.blog.blueoakdb.com
 Fax:   760.860.5225 (US)


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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Chris Angelico
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 9:23 AM, Pablo Sanchez pa...@blueoakdb.com wrote:
 Hi everyone,

 I firmly believe that if someone isn't doing the proper job, they
 should be let go.

 John A. Wallace stated the following about me:

  But since you have a tendency to throw that admin hat around
  when you feel like it, and it is your sandbox here, well,
  whatever.

 If you believe we should infuse new blood in admin'ing this list
 (meaning, I should be replaced), please respond to this thread.  All
 you have to do to be counted is respond with `+1'

 If 58 people (10% of the list) or more believe I should turn in my
 admin hat, I will.  Let the counting being!  :)

 The time limit is until the end of the weekend, Eastern time.

This is very unusual for a list like this. (But then, this is a
somewhat unusual list in a few ways.) I've almost never seen anyone
'throw that admin hat around' at all, and accusations of same are
usually just trolling. The Savoynet listowner has occasionally posted
as such, and even more occasionally has put people onto moderation,
but I can't think of any other examples.

What does it mean to be an admin? I'm new here, so maybe things are
different around VirtualBox, but normally an admin's job is to keep
the underlying infrastructure active. That sometimes means kicking
people off it, but more often means trying to get people onto it.
Appointing co-admins is usually done with a specific job in mind; it's
almost never a matter of power. (For instance, I'm admin of a MUD.
Certain people on that MUD have the power to approve or deny new
players' names. This power isn't granted as something for them to
wield - it's to let them help out by doing the relatively mundane task
of telling the computer what's obvious to a human.)

In fact, most lists of this nature run as Charlieocracies [1], and
appointing a replacement admin is more a matter of *finding* a
replacement admin. So the bar for removing someone should be fairly
high - some fairly egregious act of misconduct. More commonly, a
Charlie steps down with relief when a replacement Charlie is found,
and I'm not seeing anyone step up.

This discussion would be aided somewhat by a clear statement of what a
co-admin's job is on this list. Or, better still, by several
statements, from any and all warring parties: What do YOU see the
admins' job as?

I'm -0 on the issue at hand, and that means I'm -1 on the removal of an admin.

[1] A term borrowed from the Goon Show, and explained on my blog:
http://rosuav.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/world-is-full-of-charlieocracies.html

ChrisA

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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Fernando Cassia
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Pablo Sanchez pa...@blueoakdb.com wrote:

 I firmly believe that if someone isn't doing the proper job, they
 should be let go.

 John A. Wallace stated the following about me:

  But since you have a tendency to throw that admin hat around
  when you feel like it, and it is your sandbox here, well,
  whatever.


Let' s not get emotional please. I' ve missed the exchange above as I was a
bit busy fixing my laptop so the screen doesn't fall completely off the
rest of the body.

As far as I'm concerned you' ve been doing a great job, Pablo.

So -1
FC
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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Fernando Cassia
On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, John A. Wallace jw72...@verizon.netwrote:

 You are way too dramatic and sensitive about constructive criticism, Pablo


In my experience what you did was right John. Let's defuse this
misunderstanding before it escalates out of hand.

Clearly Pablo felt hurt by your words, and you were right to present
apologies. End of story. No need for this thread to go on and on.

Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

FC
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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Pablo Sanchez
[ Comments below, in-line ]

On 03/22/2013 06:41 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:


Hi Chris,

 This is very unusual for a list like this. (But then, this is a
 somewhat unusual list in a few ways.)

:) ... I hope that's a compliment to the list members.

 What does it mean to be an admin?

It's not a difficult job.  I'd say it's easy because we've automated
many things.

The list was open until we got a troll who kept harassing one of the
members. I had to implement some Regular Expressions to block the
troll, chase the origination of the messages to get him kicked off at
that location.  That was unusual but it did change how we accept new
users.

When a new user subscribes to the list, they're put on hold until we
vet them.  I'm on M/W/F and Fernando is on T/Th/Sat/Sun.  Basically,
we want to ensure new people are a spammers or trolls.

If we can't find anything on the Internet with the subscriber's email
address, we send out a very opened ended message, requesting more
information.

Some people on the list are familiar with that message.  :) :) :)

The day-to-day operation is very minimal.  It's to ensure the list
stays on topic (/anything/ VirtualBox) and no-bashing of vendors or
people.

We're seeking a professional tone.

 In fact, most lists of this nature run as Charlieocracies [1],

Nice!  I had never heard that term until now.

 and appointing a replacement admin is more a matter of *finding* a
 replacement admin.

If `voted out' of my position, I would first find a replacement so
Fernando doesn't have to carry the burden.

 So the bar for removing someone should be fairly high - some fairly
 egregious act of misconduct.

This is the part where I disagree.  :)

I think if there are a sufficient number of people who are not happy
with an admin, they should step aside.

I've purposely set the bar low because I'd rather not do something if
I'm upsetting 58 people.

Cheers,
-- 
Pablo Sanchez - Blueoak Database Engineering, Inc
Ph:819.459.1926 Blog:  http://pablo.blog.blueoakdb.com
Fax:   760.860.5225 (US)

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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Pablo Sanchez
[ Comments below, in-line ]

On 03/22/2013 06:58 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:

 On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 6:53 PM, John A. Wallace jw72...@verizon.net
  mailto:jw72...@verizon.net wrote:

 You are way too dramatic and sensitive about constructive criticism,
 Pablo

Hi Fernando,

Constructive criticism is something you can work with.  Lobbying an
attack is not constructive.

Well, given the co-admin feels the above, there it is  voting has
ended early.

Cheers,
-- 
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Ph:819.459.1926 Blog:  http://pablo.blog.blueoakdb.com
Fax:   760.860.5225 (US)

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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Pablo Sanchez
[ Comments below, in-line ]

On 03/22/2013 06:53 PM, John A. Wallace wrote:
 You are way too dramatic...
  [ trimmed ]

Right.

At least now I can /dev/null you John.  As an admin, I wasn't able to do 
so but now I will be able to do so ... the freedom.

Cheers,
-- 
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Ph:819.459.1926 Blog:  http://pablo.blog.blueoakdb.com
Fax:   760.860.5225 (US)

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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Chris Angelico
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 10:10 AM, Pablo Sanchez pa...@blueoakdb.com wrote:
 [ Comments below, in-line ]

 On 03/22/2013 06:41 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:


 Hi Chris,

 This is very unusual for a list like this. (But then, this is a
 somewhat unusual list in a few ways.)

 :) ... I hope that's a compliment to the list members.

No, but nor is it the opposite.

 What does it mean to be an admin?

 It's not a difficult job.  I'd say it's easy because we've automated
 many things.

 The list was open until we got a troll who kept harassing one of the
 members. I had to implement some Regular Expressions to block the
 troll, chase the origination of the messages to get him kicked off at
 that location.  That was unusual but it did change how we accept new
 users.

 When a new user subscribes to the list, they're put on hold until we
 vet them.  I'm on M/W/F and Fernando is on T/Th/Sat/Sun.  Basically,
 we want to ensure new people are a spammers or trolls.

 If we can't find anything on the Internet with the subscriber's email
 address, we send out a very opened ended message, requesting more
 information.

 Some people on the list are familiar with that message.  :) :) :)

Right, this is about what I would expect of it. Most of the adminning
is done by Mailman, and the humans make sure that it's only humans who
post.

 In fact, most lists of this nature run as Charlieocracies [1],

 Nice!  I had never heard that term until now.

No surprise; many native English speakers aren't familiar with The
Goon Show either. But it's an absolute classic, and well worth a bit
of exploration if you have a chance. Top-quality BBC comedy radio;
pretty much every comedian since them has been influenced, directly or
indirectly, by them.

 So the bar for removing someone should be fairly high - some fairly
 egregious act of misconduct.

 This is the part where I disagree.  :)

 I think if there are a sufficient number of people who are not happy
 with an admin, they should step aside.

 I've purposely set the bar low because I'd rather not do something if
 I'm upsetting 58 people.

That's actually a fairly high bar. How many threads, on _any_ topic,
attract responses from 58 unique people?

The normal operation of an open-source community is that it has a
king, and if that king is doing a bad job, people are free to leave.
(This has already happened to this list, according to its listinfo
page - Sun Microsystems was the previous king, and this list was
created to bypass a problem.) It's not democratic, in any sense of the
word. It's certainly not run by the popular vote. If the king wishes
to abdicate his throne, he has to find someone else to run the place
(and, if he chooses badly, people will leave). But the king need not
feel obliged to resign over anything. The very worst that can happen
is that people leave and start a new mailing list with a new king.

Some of you may not like the implication, but the fact is, this sort
of community follows principles laid down in the Bible. But that's
simply because those principles *work*. ;)

ChrisA

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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Pablo Sanchez
[ Comments below, in-line ]

On 03/22/2013 07:56 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

 Top-quality BBC comedy radio; pretty much every comedian since them
 has been influenced, directly or indirectly, by them.

Hi Chris,

British humor doesn't strike a chord with me.  Mostly because I can't
decipher the English quick enough (see, I'm trying to not say the
accent ... then you'd say, what accent?! :)

 That's actually a fairly high bar. How many threads, on _any_ topic,
 attract responses from 58 unique people?

I figured the Subject would attract interested parties.  The message
of course goes to all members (580 - we lost one ... our numbers
slowly are increasing over tim) and I assumed a couple of days would
be sufficient for people who cared, to respond.

 [ King analogy trimmed ]

I'm not a founder though (there not a co-King) of the list.  :)

I `was' a volunteer.  As I mentioned before, I like to give back when
I can.  I'm very busy with family, work and life .. who isn't eh?

Fernando founded the list (while Fernando may not remember, /I/ did
suggest when the original list got capped, that we're techincal, we
can do something about it.  Fernando did /something/!) so he's the
King.

In my book, John's `apology' wasn't an apology.  It was very far from
an apology and after reading it, I was relishing kicking him off the
list.  Yeah, I'm human.   No matter, the next best thing is I'll
/dev/null him with an email filter once we figure out the transition.

Privately, I've asked Fernando whether he'd like me to stay on until a
new volunteer is found or whether he wants to take the load.  Which as
I pointed out, isn't much but having it seven days a week would be a
drag.

Cheers,
-- 
Pablo Sanchez - Blueoak Database Engineering, Inc
Ph:819.459.1926 Blog:  http://pablo.blog.blueoakdb.com
Fax:   760.860.5225 (US)

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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread John Boxall
Definitely   -1

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 6:23 PM, Pablo Sanchez pa...@blueoakdb.com wrote:

 Hi everyone,

 I firmly believe that if someone isn't doing the proper job, they
 should be let go.

 John A. Wallace stated the following about me:

  But since you have a tendency to throw that admin hat around
  when you feel like it, and it is your sandbox here, well,
  whatever.

 If you believe we should infuse new blood in admin'ing this list
 (meaning, I should be replaced), please respond to this thread.  All
 you have to do to be counted is respond with `+1'

 If 58 people (10% of the list) or more believe I should turn in my
 admin hat, I will.  Let the counting being!  :)

 The time limit is until the end of the weekend, Eastern time.

 Cheers,
 --
 Pablo Sanchez - Blueoak Database Engineering, Inc
 Ph:819.459.1926 Blog:  http://pablo.blog.blueoakdb.com
 Fax:   760.860.5225 (US)


 --
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Regards,

John Boxall
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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Mr G
-1

B G
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Re: [VBox-users] Is it time for a new co-admin?

2013-03-22 Thread Kenneth Wolcott
-1
Ken Wolcott

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:25 PM, Mr G persistence2succ...@gmail.com wrote:
 -1

 B G


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