Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Lightner, Jeff]

Thanks for that info.

Just to clarify though.  If your master is also a media server (as it usually 
is) you don't have to have a separate media server to talk to the non-NBU 
appliances.

In our environment we have the master/media and multiple other media servers 
that all use storage units defined using NFS mounts to the various appliances 
we've used (DD, DXi and ExaGrid).  That is to say we can access each appliance 
from all media servers rather than requiring a separate media server for each.  

We don't use OST here because of the additional NBU license required so it may 
be different in an OST setup.


-Original Message-
From: veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu 
[mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu] On Behalf Of tsimerson
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:02 AM
To: VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU
Subject: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

One thing to keep in mind with the major difference between a NetBackup 
appliance and a dedupe storage appliance (Data Domain, DXi, Exagrid, etc.):  a 
NetBackup appliance is a media server that can do dedupe storage but the other 
appliances require a media server in front of it.

When all is said and done, a NBU appliance and a dedupe appliance end up 
working about the same.  I usually tell customers that the main difference 
between them boil down to the following:
* The requirement of a separate media server for a dedupe appliance as noted 
above.
* Through the OST feature set, almost all dedupe appliances support the same 
capabilities as a NetBackup appliance.  The only missing feature from a dedupe 
appliance is client-side dedupe.  And I suspect that Veritas will keep that one 
in their back pocket always.
* Dedupe appliances can generally scale better than the NBU appliances.  A 
NBU5230 will go to 148 TB and a NBU5330 will scale to 229 TB (but in 114 TB 
increments) which negates this statement some but the granularity of scaling is 
better for the other appliances.

+--
|This was sent by t...@tjsimerson.org via Backup Central.
|Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com.
+--


___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu 
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Wayne T Smith]

The only OST difference that I recall is that with OST you don' need the
mount.
​  As I didn't have multiple media servers, I cannot attest to the effect
of that.​


Cheers, Wayne

On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:18 AM, Lightner, Jeff 
wrote
​, in part​
:

> Thanks for that info.
>
> Just to clarify though.  If your master is also a media server (as it
> usually is) you don't have to have a separate media server to talk to the
> non-NBU appliances.
>
> In our environment we have the master/media and multiple other media
> servers that all use storage units defined using NFS mounts to the various
> appliances we've used (DD, DXi and ExaGrid).  That is to say we can access
> each appliance from all media servers rather than requiring a separate
> media server for each.
>
> We don't use OST here because of the additional NBU license required so it
> may be different in an OST setup.
> ​...​
>
>
___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Lightner, Jeff]

We never tested the NetBackup appliance so my impression of it was based on 
reading specs and other comments at the time I was looking at it as  a 
possibility.

It may be it does in-line deduplication rather than post-ingest and that soured 
me on it but I'll admit at this point I don't recall what I saw that made me 
think it wasn't something we wanted to test.

Also during our investigation we saw Gartner's "magic quadrant" analysis of 
deduplication vendors and NetBackup wasn't even in the list.  

Don't get me wrong - I really like NetBackup as a backup software vendor and 
the above is only related to their appliance (hardware).

We had major backup window issues with our DXi when they changed it from 
post-ingest to in-line so I'm not a fan of in-line.   Quantum tells us they've 
resolved most of the issues with the later units but we didn't eval any newer 
ones.   We're still using our DXi 6550 with old "firmware" that does 
post-ingest deduplication.   Quantum says they support it but after 2 years 
they don't really understand it any more so any call to them invariably 
suggests the upgrade to newer "firmaware".

We didn't go with Data Domain mainly due to past business issues with EMC 
(prior to them acquiring DD and prior to Dell's pending acquisition of EMC).   
Were all things equal I'd probably investigate DD as I really never saw any 
issues on the ones we had.

As an FYI  our eval of the Exagrid solution went quite well and management has 
opted to go that route to replace the DXi and the Data Domain.



-Original Message-
From: veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu 
[mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu] On Behalf Of tech472
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 2:53 PM
To: VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU
Subject: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

Jeff,

Could you provide specifics re: what you did not like about the NetBackup 
dedupe appliance?

Thanks again, greatly appreciate your insight on this topic.

+--
|This was sent by hankv...@gmail.com via Backup Central.
|Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com.
+--


___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu 
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Joe Liston]

I'm curious as to what model of the appliances you were looking at the
time... the older 5020/5220's or the newer 5230/5330's?

As for the NetBackup appliances not even being on the Gartner "magic
quadrant" list for backup dedupe appliances, I believe it's because of the
criteria they used: "Its appliance must be able to serve as a disk-based
target for heterogeneous backup software applications and/or
application-native backup utilities, such as Oracle RMAN".

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Lightner, Jeff 
wrote:

> We never tested the NetBackup appliance so my impression of it was based
> on reading specs and other comments at the time I was looking at it as  a
> possibility.
>
> It may be it does in-line deduplication rather than post-ingest and that
> soured me on it but I'll admit at this point I don't recall what I saw that
> made me think it wasn't something we wanted to test.
>
> Also during our investigation we saw Gartner's "magic quadrant" analysis
> of deduplication vendors and NetBackup wasn't even in the list.
>
> Don't get me wrong - I really like NetBackup as a backup software vendor
> and the above is only related to their appliance (hardware).
>
> We had major backup window issues with our DXi when they changed it from
> post-ingest to in-line so I'm not a fan of in-line.   Quantum tells us
> they've resolved most of the issues with the later units but we didn't eval
> any newer ones.   We're still using our DXi 6550 with old "firmware" that
> does post-ingest deduplication.   Quantum says they support it but after 2
> years they don't really understand it any more so any call to them
> invariably suggests the upgrade to newer "firmaware".
>
> We didn't go with Data Domain mainly due to past business issues with EMC
> (prior to them acquiring DD and prior to Dell's pending acquisition of
> EMC).   Were all things equal I'd probably investigate DD as I really never
> saw any issues on the ones we had.
>
> As an FYI  our eval of the Exagrid solution went quite well and management
> has opted to go that route to replace the DXi and the Data Domain.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu [mailto:
> veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu] On Behalf Of tech472
> Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 2:53 PM
> To: VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU
> Subject: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup
>
> Jeff,
>
> Could you provide specifics re: what you did not like about the NetBackup
> dedupe appliance?
>
> Thanks again, greatly appreciate your insight on this topic.
>
> +--
> |This was sent by hankv...@gmail.com via Backup Central.
> |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com.
> +--
>
>
> ___
> Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
> http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
> ___
> Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
> http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
>
___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Lightner, Jeff]

What is it NBU can put in their DB policies (software) to make their appliances 
(hardware) work without RMAN that they couldn’t also have put in to make anyone 
else’s appliances (or tape for that matter) work?   Given you’re spending a 
fair amount of money on NBU software licenses it seems their shouldn’t be a 
requirement to use their hardware as well.


From: Scott Jacobson [mailto:scott.jacob...@microfocus.com]
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 4:49 PM
To: Joe Liston; Lightner, Jeff
Cc: VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU
Subject: RE: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

My three Appliances are the 5230’s and with 7.7.1 you have new Appliance 
specific MySQL and Oracle features that basically can eliminate all RMAN 
scripting as it is now done with new Backup Policy Types.

From: 
veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu<mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu>
 [mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu] On Behalf Of Joe Liston
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 2:27 PM
To: Jeff Lightner <jlight...@dsservices.com<mailto:jlight...@dsservices.com>>
Cc: VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU<mailto:VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU>
Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

I'm curious as to what model of the appliances you were looking at the time... 
the older 5020/5220's or the newer 5230/5330's?

As for the NetBackup appliances not even being on the Gartner "magic quadrant" 
list for backup dedupe appliances, I believe it's because of the criteria they 
used: "Its appliance must be able to serve as a disk-based target for 
heterogeneous backup software applications and/or application-native backup 
utilities, such as Oracle RMAN".

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Lightner, Jeff 
<jlight...@dsservices.com<mailto:jlight...@dsservices.com>> wrote:
We never tested the NetBackup appliance so my impression of it was based on 
reading specs and other comments at the time I was looking at it as  a 
possibility.

It may be it does in-line deduplication rather than post-ingest and that soured 
me on it but I'll admit at this point I don't recall what I saw that made me 
think it wasn't something we wanted to test.

Also during our investigation we saw Gartner's "magic quadrant" analysis of 
deduplication vendors and NetBackup wasn't even in the list.

Don't get me wrong - I really like NetBackup as a backup software vendor and 
the above is only related to their appliance (hardware).

We had major backup window issues with our DXi when they changed it from 
post-ingest to in-line so I'm not a fan of in-line.   Quantum tells us they've 
resolved most of the issues with the later units but we didn't eval any newer 
ones.   We're still using our DXi 6550 with old "firmware" that does 
post-ingest deduplication.   Quantum says they support it but after 2 years 
they don't really understand it any more so any call to them invariably 
suggests the upgrade to newer "firmaware".

We didn't go with Data Domain mainly due to past business issues with EMC 
(prior to them acquiring DD and prior to Dell's pending acquisition of EMC).   
Were all things equal I'd probably investigate DD as I really never saw any 
issues on the ones we had.

As an FYI  our eval of the Exagrid solution went quite well and management has 
opted to go that route to replace the DXi and the Data Domain.



-Original Message-
From: 
veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu<mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu>
 
[mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu<mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu>]
 On Behalf Of tech472
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 2:53 PM
To: VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU<mailto:VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU>
Subject: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

Jeff,

Could you provide specifics re: what you did not like about the NetBackup 
dedupe appliance?

Thanks again, greatly appreciate your insight on this topic.

+--
|This was sent by hankv...@gmail.com<mailto:hankv...@gmail.com> via Backup 
Central.
|Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com<mailto:ab...@backupcentral.com>.
+--


___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  
Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu<mailto:Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu> 
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  
Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu<mailto:Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu>
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Lightner, Jeff]

I’d strongly suggest not making decisions today based on what vendors tell you 
they “will be able to do” in the future.   This is called vaporware because 
even if the vendor truly has plans to make it so the day they tell you about 
it, more often than not, it does not happen on the timeline they say and 
frequently not at all.Planning should be based on what is actually 
available in vendor products the day you order them rather than future 
“updates”.


From: veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu 
[mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu] On Behalf Of Bahadir Kiziltan
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2015 9:52 AM
To: VERITAS-BU@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

What's the primary purpose of replicating data off-site? DR or long term 
retention? If it's latter, then you would try CloudBoost, which is fully 
integrated with Avamar/NW/NBU today. It allows backup data to be sent to 
public/private service providers.
And next year, DD will have a feature called Cloud Tiering. DD will be able to 
natively use blob storage on cloud as an extension and based on the defined 
policies, data will be moved to cloud tier in deduplicated form (no need to 
rehyradate and dedupe again), regardless of the backup software being used.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 5:09 AM, tech472 
<nbu-fo...@backupcentral.com<mailto:nbu-fo...@backupcentral.com>> wrote:
Yes you're right, we're researching all options one being to replicate our 
existing DD units to a cloud provider. We're kind of stuck with them based on 
their original cost and the fact that they don't talk to other storage units, 
though purchasing another DD just costs too much. Actifio sounds like an 
interesting option which I'll read up on. Thanks so much for the info.

Cheers

+--
|This was sent by hankv...@gmail.com<mailto:hankv...@gmail.com> via Backup 
Central.
|Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com<mailto:ab...@backupcentral.com>.
+--

___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  
Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu<mailto:Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu>
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Bahadir Kiziltan]

What's the primary purpose of replicating data off-site? DR or long term
retention? If it's latter, then you would try CloudBoost, which is fully
integrated with Avamar/NW/NBU today. It allows backup data to be sent to
public/private service providers.
And next year, DD will have a feature called Cloud Tiering. DD will be able
to natively use blob storage on cloud as an extension and based on the
defined policies, data will be moved to cloud tier in deduplicated form (no
need to rehyradate and dedupe again), regardless of the backup software
being used.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 5:09 AM, tech472 
wrote:

> Yes you're right, we're researching all options one being to replicate our
> existing DD units to a cloud provider. We're kind of stuck with them based
> on their original cost and the fact that they don't talk to other storage
> units, though purchasing another DD just costs too much. Actifio sounds
> like an interesting option which I'll read up on. Thanks so much for the
> info.
>
> Cheers
>
> +--
> |This was sent by hankv...@gmail.com via Backup Central.
> |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com.
> +--
>
>
> ___
> Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
> http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
>
___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Harpreet Singh Chana]

You can explore on NetBackup 5230 appliance.
They are pretty good in Backup/Tape and Optimized replication.

On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 11:09 AM, tech472 
wrote:

> Yes you're right, we're researching all options one being to replicate our
> existing DD units to a cloud provider. We're kind of stuck with them based
> on their original cost and the fact that they don't talk to other storage
> units, though purchasing another DD just costs too much. Actifio sounds
> like an interesting option which I'll read up on. Thanks so much for the
> info.
>
> Cheers
>
> +--
> |This was sent by hankv...@gmail.com via Backup Central.
> |Forward SPAM to ab...@backupcentral.com.
> +--
>
>
> ___
> Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
> http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
>



-- 
*
With Warm Regards.
Harpreet Singh Chana
*
___
Veritas-bu maillist  -  Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu
http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu

Re: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

[Lightner, Jeff]

I've worked on NetBackup since around version 3 (we're now up to 7.6) and I 
find it works well with various tape libraries as well as various deduplication 
appliances (we currently have Quantum DXi and EMC Data Domain and are 
evaluating ExaGrid.   The ExaGrid after 3 weeks of POC looks really good to us 
so we'll likely replace the DXi and DD units with it - it unlike the other 
appliances has settings to recognize the backup types being done such as 
NetBackup.)

NetBackup has plugins (at additional cost) that work with many different vendor 
products (e.g. Oracle RMAN,   MS-SQL,  MS-Exchange,  MS Hyper-V) and of course 
has agents for standard backups of Systems/Files for UNIX (HP-UX, Solaris 
[probably AIX but I haven't done that]) ,  Linux (2.4 kernels through 3.x so 
far - we do mostly RHEL here),  MS-Windows (we've done NT through Windows 2012 
but currently don't have anything under Windows 2000).

I last directly used HP's backup solution when it was still called Omniback.   

We don't care for EMC as an organization here because of what they did to us 
with their storage arrays a few years back.   Data Domain as an independent 
company was fine to work with but we'd not likely buy one now because of EMC's 
ownership.   Dell is buying EMC which may improve them overall but then again 
it is suggested Dell's main interest is in getting VMWare which EMC has the 
majority ownership of currently.   

The DXi we originally got was fine and worked well for our purposes (though 
tape was always faster and our POC shows the ExaGrid is even faster than tape). 
  However, DXi went to post-ingest deduplication to inline which caused us to 
miss our backup windows until we finally forced them to revert us to original 
unit.   Were I to look at another DXi I'd require onsite POC before I'd be 
willing to use their newer units.   

Although DXi, Data Domain and ExaGrid all allow for offsite replication units I 
doubt any of them allow you to replicate to anything other than another of 
their units.  The replication is done from appliance to appliance over the WAN 
not via the backup software (NetBackup, Data Protector).   If I read you 
correctly you are thinking you can replicate from your two colo data domains to 
some other unit at another site and I don't think that works.

We haven't done the offsite replication (we duplicate to tape and send the 
tapes off site) but in ExaGrid's model they say their offsite replication is 
only of the compressed/deduped backups (not the landing area which is not 
deduped yet) so it would use less throughput on WAN.   

NetBackup makes their own deduplication appliance but my reading about them 
didn't give me a warm fuzzy so we didn't investigate them when we started 
looking for replacement for our DXi and Data Domain stuff.

We also heard from a company called Actifio which does offsite replication and 
isn't just a backup solution.   My own take on it was that it would be a great 
product to allow us not to be tied to vendor specific disk arrays for data 
replication in house (i.e. you can virtualize storage from multiple arrays).
It also allows for offsite replication to another unit and they suggest they do 
very little over the WAN because of the way they set it up.   Were we doing 
such replication rather than tape duplications I might have pushed harder for 
that. 

If you're doing a DR plan offsite replication of daily backups allowed by the 
various dedupe units or the Actifio would probably be the best way to plan 
rather than spinning tapes so long as you put your offsite replication to 
something in another city via WAN.

-Original Message-
From: veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu 
[mailto:veritas-bu-boun...@mailman.eng.auburn.edu] On Behalf Of tech472
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 3:52 PM
To: VERITAS-BU@MAILMAN.ENG.AUBURN.EDU
Subject: [Veritas-bu] HP Data Protector vs Veritas Net Backup

Our two EMC Data Domain 640 repositories, one which we keep in our offsite CoLo 
facility and the other in our main office, have maxed out their capacity sooner 
than we had planned. Along with the DD's we use Avamar nodes to backup our VMs 
with Direct Drive Mappings (SQL clusters) and a few physical servers. We also 
use Veeam to back up the majority of our VM's - approx 100 servers. Replication 
occurs between the two DDs, approx 63TB compressed. 

We're currently researching a solution where we combine both DD's at the CoLo 
and replicate the data to an offsite provider. The main challenge here is 
finding a solution that talks to the EMC DD/Avamar nodes. Two options we're 
considering are Veritas Net Backup and HP Data Protector. We used Backup Exec 
prior to our infrastructure going mostly virtual but are not familiar with the 
Data Protector product. Would be interested to hear reviews from users of 
either product.

+--
|This was sent by hankv...@gmail.com via Backup