Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
OK, so the LTO-4 drives have a hardware encryption option? How long have these been out? On 9/12/07, Austin Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/12/07, Brad Hillebrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any experiences with the Sun/StorageTek T1 tape drive? I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Brad Hillebrand wrote: OK, so the LTO-4 drives have a hardware encryption option? How long have these been out? On 9/12/07, Austin Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/12/07, Brad Hillebrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any experiences with the Sun/StorageTek T1 tape drive? I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin I think he was referring to the T10K drives. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
Yes. They've been out for about 5 months. http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/21429.wss Austin On 9/13/07, Brad Hillebrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, so the LTO-4 drives have a hardware encryption option? How long have these been out? On 9/12/07, Austin Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/12/07, Brad Hillebrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any experiences with the Sun/StorageTek T1 tape drive? I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
Isn't this true for most of the high end drives? None of them are variable speed, but will write at one of 2 or 3 fixed speeds. -- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Murphy Sent: September 12, 2007 5:23 PM To: Brad Hillebrand Cc: veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin La version française suit le texte anglais. This email may contain privileged and/or confidential information, and the Bank of Canada does not waive any related rights. Any distribution, use, or copying of this email or the information it contains by other than the intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this email in error please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by email that you have done so. Le présent courriel peut contenir de l'information privilégiée ou confidentielle. La Banque du Canada ne renonce pas aux droits qui s'y rapportent. Toute diffusion, utilisation ou copie de ce courriel ou des renseignements qu'il contient par une personne autre que le ou les destinataires désignés est interdite. Si vous recevez ce courriel par erreur, veuillez le supprimer immédiatement et envoyer sans délai à l'expéditeur un message électronique pour l'aviser que vous avez éliminé de votre ordinateur toute copie du courriel reçu. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
That is true, and the number of speeds depends (am I right on this?) on how the manufactuer implemented the LTO standard. Does anyone know if there is a way to monitor/poll/capture what speed the drive is operating at a given time? On 9/13/07, Austin Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes. Few drives are actually completely variable speed. The LTO drives from IBM can write at 5 different fixed speeds, from half speed to full speed. See page 55 of the PDF here: http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg245946.html It describes Dynamic Speed Matching on IBM's LTO3 drives. IBM's TS1120 has 6 speeds. (page 77) This article compares the T10k and the TS1120 and mentions the write speeds. http://www.clipper.com/research/TCG2005077.pdf Austin On 9/13/07, Paul Keating [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't this true for most of the high end drives? None of them are variable speed, but will write at one of 2 or 3 fixed speeds. -- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Murphy Sent: September 12, 2007 5:23 PM To: Brad Hillebrand Cc: veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin La version française suit le texte anglais. This email may contain privileged and/or confidential information, and the Bank of Canada does not waive any related rights. Any distribution, use, or copying of this email or the information it contains by other than the intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this email in error please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by email that you have done so. Le présent courriel peut contenir de l'information privilégiée ou confidentielle. La Banque du Canada ne renonce pas aux droits qui s'y rapportent. Toute diffusion, utilisation ou copie de ce courriel ou des renseignements qu'il contient par une personne autre que le ou les destinataires désignés est interdite. Si vous recevez ce courriel par erreur, veuillez le supprimer immédiatement et envoyer sans délai à l'expéditeur un message électronique pour l'aviser que vous avez éliminé de votre ordinateur toute copie du courriel reçu. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
FWIW, I have done write tests with ours and based on output from iostat -xtc, the write speeds were between 100-105 mb/sec... Harry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Murphy Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:23 PM To: Brad Hillebrand Cc: veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive On 9/12/07, Brad Hillebrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any experiences with the Sun/StorageTek T1 tape drive? I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
What type of data? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schaefer, Harry Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:09 AM To: veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive FWIW, I have done write tests with ours and based on output from iostat -xtc, the write speeds were between 100-105 mb/sec... Harry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Murphy Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:23 PM To: Brad Hillebrand Cc: veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive On 9/12/07, Brad Hillebrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any experiences with the Sun/StorageTek T1 tape drive? I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Brad Hillebrand wrote: That is true, and the number of speeds depends (am I right on this?) on how the manufactuer implemented the LTO standard. Does anyone know if there is a way to monitor/poll/capture what speed the drive is operating at a given time? With NetBackup bpdbjobs -most_columns, one of the fields is the speed. With hardware, fiber channel switch, check how much a port is using. Justin. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
Yes. Few drives are actually completely variable speed. The LTO drives from IBM can write at 5 different fixed speeds, from half speed to full speed. See page 55 of the PDF here: http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg245946.html It describes Dynamic Speed Matching on IBM's LTO3 drives. IBM's TS1120 has 6 speeds. (page 77) This article compares the T10k and the TS1120 and mentions the write speeds. http://www.clipper.com/research/TCG2005077.pdf Austin On 9/13/07, Paul Keating [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't this true for most of the high end drives? None of them are variable speed, but will write at one of 2 or 3 fixed speeds. -- -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Murphy Sent: September 12, 2007 5:23 PM To: Brad Hillebrand Cc: veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin La version française suit le texte anglais. This email may contain privileged and/or confidential information, and the Bank of Canada does not waive any related rights. Any distribution, use, or copying of this email or the information it contains by other than the intended recipient is unauthorized. If you received this email in error please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender promptly by email that you have done so. Le présent courriel peut contenir de l'information privilégiée ou confidentielle. La Banque du Canada ne renonce pas aux droits qui s'y rapportent. Toute diffusion, utilisation ou copie de ce courriel ou des renseignements qu'il contient par une personne autre que le ou les destinataires désignés est interdite. Si vous recevez ce courriel par erreur, veuillez le supprimer immédiatement et envoyer sans délai à l'expéditeur un message électronique pour l'aviser que vous avez éliminé de votre ordinateur toute copie du courriel reçu. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Schaefer, Harry wrote: FWIW, I have done write tests with ours and based on output from iostat -xtc, the write speeds were between 100-105 mb/sec... Harry But that is just the read speed of the hard drives yeah? If the data stream is compressed 2:1 the tape only writes then at 50-52.5 MiB/s. I recall watching catalog backups write to tape and I would see the disk reading at 100-120 MiB/s, was the LTO-2 tape that is was backing the catalog up to writing that fast? No, compression was being used. Justin. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
This was already compressed single stream video files, so it was writing at ~105 mb/s uncompressed, and I was looking at the st** device for the tape drive when gathering the mb/sec figures... - Harry -Original Message- From: Hall, Christian N. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:19 AM To: Schaefer, Harry; veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: RE: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive What type of data? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Schaefer, Harry Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2007 10:09 AM To: veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive FWIW, I have done write tests with ours and based on output from iostat -xtc, the write speeds were between 100-105 mb/sec... Harry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Austin Murphy Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 5:23 PM To: Brad Hillebrand Cc: veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu Subject: Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T1 tape drive On 9/12/07, Brad Hillebrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any experiences with the Sun/StorageTek T1 tape drive? I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Gregory Demilde wrote: Native drive speed of the T10K is 120 MB/s ... it is even closer to 130 MB/s..; so If you are using compression and you feed the data fast enough you can go over the 170 MB/s.. I had peaks over the 180 MB/s On 9/13/07, Justin Piszcz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Schaefer, Harry wrote: FWIW, I have done write tests with ours and based on output from iostat -xtc, the write speeds were between 100-105 mb/sec... Harry But that is just the read speed of the hard drives yeah? If the data stream is compressed 2:1 the tape only writes then at 50-52.5 MiB/s. I recall watching catalog backups write to tape and I would see the disk reading at 100-120 MiB/s, was the LTO-2 tape that is was backing the catalog up to writing that fast? No, compression was being used. Justin. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu -- Gregory DEMILDE Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM : +352 691 915620 I was referring to LTO-X but nice info! Justin. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
The biggest problem is to have an architecture that can feed that transfer rate .. because at those speed, one drive just saturates a 2 Gb FC link. ;op On 9/13/07, Justin Piszcz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Gregory Demilde wrote: Native drive speed of the T10K is 120 MB/s ... it is even closer to 130 MB/s..; so If you are using compression and you feed the data fast enough you can go over the 170 MB/s.. I had peaks over the 180 MB/s On 9/13/07, Justin Piszcz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Schaefer, Harry wrote: FWIW, I have done write tests with ours and based on output from iostat -xtc, the write speeds were between 100-105 mb/sec... Harry But that is just the read speed of the hard drives yeah? If the data stream is compressed 2:1 the tape only writes then at 50-52.5 MiB/s. I recall watching catalog backups write to tape and I would see the disk reading at 100-120 MiB/s, was the LTO-2 tape that is was backing the catalog up to writing that fast? No, compression was being used. Justin. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu -- Gregory DEMILDE Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM : +352 691 915620 I was referring to LTO-X but nice info! Justin. -- Gregory DEMILDE Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM : +352 691 915620 ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
I agree, in my environment I have not seen anything that can saturate a 2GB FC link. I am thinking that choosing a drive with more speeds will give improved real-world performance rather than a drive that can peak very high. (although peaks of 180 MB/s would blow my socks off :) ) On 9/13/07, Gregory Demilde [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The biggest problem is to have an architecture that can feed that transfer rate .. because at those speed, one drive just saturates a 2 Gb FC link. ;op On 9/13/07, Justin Piszcz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Gregory Demilde wrote: Native drive speed of the T10K is 120 MB/s ... it is even closer to 130 MB/s..; so If you are using compression and you feed the data fast enough you can go over the 170 MB/s.. I had peaks over the 180 MB/s On 9/13/07, Justin Piszcz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 13 Sep 2007, Schaefer, Harry wrote: FWIW, I have done write tests with ours and based on output from iostat -xtc, the write speeds were between 100-105 mb/sec... Harry But that is just the read speed of the hard drives yeah? If the data stream is compressed 2:1 the tape only writes then at 50-52.5 MiB/s. I recall watching catalog backups write to tape and I would see the disk reading at 100-120 MiB/s, was the LTO-2 tape that is was backing the catalog up to writing that fast? No, compression was being used. Justin. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu -- Gregory DEMILDE Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM : +352 691 915620 I was referring to LTO-X but nice info! Justin. -- Gregory DEMILDE Email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM : +352 691 915620 ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 08:21:52AM -0400, Brad Hillebrand wrote: OK, so the LTO-4 drives have a hardware encryption option? How long have these been out? They have encryption capability in the drive, but it's not as simple as just saying encryption on. You have to have something to manage the keys. I think there's a key SDK out for developers, but I don't know what software is yet able to do this for the LTO-4. I've seen nothing that suggests NetBackup will be able to handle this in the near future. In addition some libraries (like spectralogic) can manage the keys for drives in the library. This is all from talking to vendors and other folks. I was interested in them, but don't have any in place yet. -- Darren Dunham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Technical Consultant TAOShttp://www.taos.com/ Got some Dr Pepper? San Francisco, CA bay area This line left intentionally blank to confuse you. ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
Re: [Veritas-bu] STK T10000 tape drive
On 9/12/07, Brad Hillebrand [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone have any experiences with the Sun/StorageTek T1 tape drive? I don't use them, but I did some research. One gotcha that I came across was the writing speed. They can only write at either 120 MB/sec or 50 MB/sec. There is no in between. Your disk staging or virtual tape better be able to spit out the data at one of those rates or the thing will shoe-shine like crazy. LTO-4 drives are likely to be easier to feed data and a lot cheaper. I haven't compared prices with the hardware encryption options, but w/o the encryption the drive prices are something like $5k vs. $30k. Also LTO-4 native capacity is 800 GB vs 500 GB for the T10k. Both can write at 120 MB/Sec. Austin ___ Veritas-bu maillist - Veritas-bu@mailman.eng.auburn.edu http://mailman.eng.auburn.edu/mailman/listinfo/veritas-bu
