Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]
A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Jessica Rosner jessicapros...@gmail.commailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edughand...@library.berkeley.edumailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: Original Message Subject: Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you’ve become an artist? From: mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu ghand...@library.berkeley.edumailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:31 pm To: Video Library News mailto:videon...@lists.berkeley.eduvideon...@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videon...@lists.berkeley.edu -- Problem isn't solved if the expensive title they've taken out and lost is out of distribution. All depends on the mission of your collection (and whether preservation for long-haul to support teaching and research is part of it) Gary (who's cool in Berkeley) At the University of Southern California we have in our collection at least 750 documentary films costing $250 or more. And no effetism here. All such films fully circulate. And if a student happens to lose such an item then said student is fully obliged to reimburse the costs of the film. Problem solved--and it is a policy that seems very much to work for us. And greetings from ALA and New Orleans! Cheers! Anthony *** Anthony E. Anderson Social Studies and Arts Humanities Librarian Von KleinSmid Library University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-0182 (213) 740-1190tel:%28213%29%20740-1190 mailto:antho...@usc.edu antho...@usc.edumailto:antho...@usc.edu Wind, regen, zon, of kou, Albert Cuyp ik hou van jou. * - Original Message - From: jwoo mailto:j...@cca.eduj...@cca.edumailto:j...@cca.edu Date: Friday, June 24, 2011 12:33 pm Subject: Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you’ve become an artist? To: Video Library News
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively. In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any distributor that will make this deal. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media From: James Ball jmb...@eservices.virginia.edumailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu Reply-To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 + To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu videolib@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Jessica Rosner jessicapros...@gmail.commailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edughand...@library.berkeley.edumailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: Original Message Subject: Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you’ve become an artist? From: mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu
[Videolib] (no subject)
SET videolib NOMAIL VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
[Videolib] Re: How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]
It has become increasingly clear to me (particular over the past three years) that the existing pricing model for indie docs is simply not viable. The $250-$450 gambit for indie docs will, I'm afraid, not continue to fly, even for moderately large and stable budgets such as mine (the large and stable being more and more relative every day). I've been around long enough to understand and support the need for higher pricing in the indie doc sector, but the ground rules for collecting in both public and private institutions are changing and will continue to change in the face of economic hard times. I find myself increasingly pulling my punches when it comes to shelling out for indie docs. Where, at one time, I used to think nothing of shelling out $300 based on anticipated use (i.e. just-in-case use), now I'm more than a bit gun shy to pay such prices for stuff that may not get used in the short-haul. I think $30 per shot is not really reasonable...but neither is $300. Somehow the model has to change--both for physical media such as DVDs and online delivery. gary A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Jessica Rosner jessicapros...@gmail.commailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edughand...@library.berkeley.edumailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: Original Message Subject: Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you’ve become an artist? From: mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu ghand...@library.berkeley.edumailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:31 pm To: Video Library News mailto:videon...@lists.berkeley.eduvideon...@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videon...@lists.berkeley.edu -- Problem isn't solved if the expensive title they've taken out and lost is out of distribution. All depends on the mission of your collection (and whether preservation for long-haul to support
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively. In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any distributor that will make this deal. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media From: James Ball jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu Reply-To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 + To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]
Matt, James and Gary, This discussion is very timely as we are currently reviewing our pricing structure, both for PPR, non PPR to institutions and digital site licensing. We are aware that budgets for PPR are diminishing and that many institutions do not require the license since the DVDs are circulated only to individuals and not shown to non-admission paying groups. Last year we introduced non PPR pricing for many of our docs which, while not $30, sought to address the needs and budgets of the institutional community. As a distributor of many critically-acclaimed theatrically-released films and documentaries, such as City of Life and Death, United Red Army, Film Socialisme and Raw Faith (of which you will be hearing more about next week), we consider the institutional market a primary audience for our films. Starting next week, we will be offering our films day-and-date with the theatrical release for purchase with PPR and for one-time Community Screenings. Once the film is no longer actively being promoted to the the theatrical market, we will then offer the films without PPR for a substantially lower price. Currently, our PPR licenses are $249 and our non PPR institutional and library sales are $149. Eventually, many of the titles will be released into home video, at which time they are available at $30 to all without PPR. James, I would be happy to send you a list of all of our films available without PPR for $30. PPR licenses will remain at $249. For those looking to place larger orders with us (five or more films) without PPR, we are always happy to offer discounts. Our goal as a distributor is, to quote Matt, to be the primary source of ...amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. As Gary says though, the needs of the institutional market are changing and the demand for digital site licenses increasing as budget dollars are re directed from DVD to digital. We are currently revising our digital site licensing prices. While we will continue to offer substantially less expensive short term digital site licenses for those teachers who need a film for one semester, the majority of our films will be available with perpetual digital site licenses on an a la carte and collection basis. Stay tuned. And happy Fourth of July. Best, Elizabeth Elizabeth Sheldon Vice President Kino Lorber, Inc. 333 W. 39th St., Suite 503 New York, NY 10018 (212) 629-6880 www.kinolorberedu.com On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:27 AM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: It has become increasingly clear to me (particular over the past three years) that the existing pricing model for indie docs is simply not viable. The $250-$450 gambit for indie docs will, I'm afraid, not continue to fly, even for moderately large and stable budgets such as mine (the large and stable being more and more relative every day). I've been around long enough to understand and support the need for higher pricing in the indie doc sector, but the ground rules for collecting in both public and private institutions are changing and will continue to change in the face of economic hard times. I find myself increasingly pulling my punches when it comes to shelling out for indie docs. Where, at one time, I used to think nothing of shelling out $300 based on anticipated use (i.e. just-in-case use), now I'm more than a bit gun shy to pay such prices for stuff that may not get used in the short-haul. I think $30 per shot is not really reasonable...but neither is $300. Somehow the model has to change--both for physical media such as DVDs and online delivery. gary A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Jessica Rosner jessicapros...@gmail.commailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed mailto:peter...@jmu.edupeter...@jmu.edumailto:peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively. In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any distributor that will make this deal. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770tel:%28540%29%20568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/mediahttp://www.lib.jmu.edu/media From: James Ball mailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edujmb...@eservices.virginia.edumailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu Reply-To: mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.eduvideolib@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 + To: mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.eduvideolib@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu mailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.eduvideolib@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries
Hello, Matt, You've got my attention. Let's talk. Elizabeth Bullfrog Films 800-543-3764 From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw) Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 10:13 AM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Jessica Rosner jessicapros...@gmail.commailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or even one on Gerrymandering ( to plug the ones I deal with) the directors would be over the moon to sell them for $25 knowing more people could see them. When good documentaries are carried by public libraries at a fraction of the rate of bad action movies then you will see a huge drop in prices, heck if just one in every 500 university libraries bought them you would see the same. On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 7:31 PM, mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edughand...@library.berkeley.edumailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: Original Message Subject: Re: [Videonews] How do you know when you've become an artist? From: mailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu ghand...@library.berkeley.edumailto:ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, June 24, 2011 4:31 pm To: Video Library News mailto:videon...@lists.berkeley.eduvideon...@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videon...@lists.berkeley.edu -- Problem isn't solved if the expensive title they've taken out and lost is out of distribution. All depends on the mission of your collection (and whether preservation for long-haul to support teaching and research is part of it) Gary (who's cool in Berkeley) At the University of Southern California we have in our collection at least 750 documentary films costing $250 or more. And no effetism here. All such films fully circulate. And if a student happens to lose such an item then said student is fully obliged to reimburse the costs of the film. Problem solved--and it is a policy that seems very much to work for us. And greetings from ALA and New Orleans! Cheers! Anthony *** Anthony E. Anderson Social Studies and Arts Humanities Librarian Von KleinSmid Library University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-0182 (213)
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible pricing. Who else is interested? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) jmb...@eservices.virginia.edumailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu wrote: If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mailto:mattb...@virginia.edumattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Jessica Rosner mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.comjessicapros...@gmail.commailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed mailto:peter...@jmu.edumailto:peter...@jmu.edupeter...@jmu.edumailto:peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively. In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any distributor that will make this deal. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770tel:%28540%29%20568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/mediahttp://www.lib.jmu.edu/mediahttp://www.lib.jmu.edu/media From: James Ball
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?]
I think this is kind of different group of films Elizabeth. They do play in theaters and they will be released in the home market. While I understand some institutions may want to get PPR or buy them before they are available in the retail market, the issue for me is films that sadly have little or no retail market or ancillary rights . On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Elizabeth Sheldon elizab...@kinolorber.com wrote: Matt, James and Gary, This discussion is very timely as we are currently reviewing our pricing structure, both for PPR, non PPR to institutions and digital site licensing. We are aware that budgets for PPR are diminishing and that many institutions do not require the license since the DVDs are circulated only to individuals and not shown to non-admission paying groups. Last year we introduced non PPR pricing for many of our docs which, while not $30, sought to address the needs and budgets of the institutional community. As a distributor of many critically-acclaimed theatrically-released films and documentaries, such as City of Life and Death, United Red Army, Film Socialisme and Raw Faith (of which you will be hearing more about next week), we consider the institutional market a primary audience for our films. Starting next week, we will be offering our films day-and-date with the theatrical release for purchase with PPR and for one-time Community Screenings. Once the film is no longer actively being promoted to the the theatrical market, we will then offer the films without PPR for a substantially lower price. Currently, our PPR licenses are $249 and our non PPR institutional and library sales are $149. Eventually, many of the titles will be released into home video, at which time they are available at $30 to all without PPR. James, I would be happy to send you a list of all of our films available without PPR for $30. PPR licenses will remain at $249. For those looking to place larger orders with us (five or more films) without PPR, we are always happy to offer discounts. Our goal as a distributor is, to quote Matt, to be the primary source of ...amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. As Gary says though, the needs of the institutional market are changing and the demand for digital site licenses increasing as budget dollars are re directed from DVD to digital. We are currently revising our digital site licensing prices. While we will continue to offer substantially less expensive short term digital site licenses for those teachers who need a film for one semester, the majority of our films will be available with perpetual digital site licenses on an a la carte and collection basis. Stay tuned. And happy Fourth of July. Best, Elizabeth Elizabeth Sheldon Vice President Kino Lorber, Inc. 333 W. 39th St., Suite 503 New York, NY 10018 (212) 629-6880 www.kinolorberedu.com On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:27 AM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: It has become increasingly clear to me (particular over the past three years) that the existing pricing model for indie docs is simply not viable. The $250-$450 gambit for indie docs will, I'm afraid, not continue to fly, even for moderately large and stable budgets such as mine (the large and stable being more and more relative every day). I've been around long enough to understand and support the need for higher pricing in the indie doc sector, but the ground rules for collecting in both public and private institutions are changing and will continue to change in the face of economic hard times. I find myself increasingly pulling my punches when it comes to shelling out for indie docs. Where, at one time, I used to think nothing of shelling out $300 based on anticipated use (i.e. just-in-case use), now I'm more than a bit gun shy to pay such prices for stuff that may not get used in the short-haul. I think $30 per shot is not really reasonable...but neither is $300. Somehow the model has to change--both for physical media such as DVDs and online delivery. gary A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
Dear All, As I said in my earlier note, many of our films are available without PPR for $30. For new releases, many of which we will be announcing over the coming weeks as they open in theaters, we will be asking $149 without PPR but if you want to place an order of more than five films from Kino Lorber Edu, I am willing to offer discounts based on number of titles and meet you somewhere around halfway. Just drop me a note and I will get back to you. Matt, you are definitely one of our top customers and we have room for more (lots of room for many more). In fact, I up the ante and whichever library doubles their purchase on a dollar basis from last year with the fiscal year ending December 31, 2010, there will be a prize. And whoever spends the most in total dollars at Kino Lorber Edu, there will be another prize. How is that for suspense? Best, Elizabeth Elizabeth Sheldon Vice President Kino Lorber, Inc. 333 W. 39th St., Suite 503 New York, NY 10018 (212) 629-6880 www.kinolorberedu.com On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) wrote: If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Jessica Rosner jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you ¹ ve become an artist?]
We here at ro*co films are always willing to discuss flexible pricing when libraries are wanting to purchase multiple titles. We have such a small collection (unlike Bullfrog, Kino Lorber, Women Make Movies, etc), so lowering our prices to $60 just isn¹t an option for us, especially when we have no assurance that this will increase the amount of DVDs sold. However, when multiple titles (or copies) are requested, we are always open to discussing substantial discounts! For all librarians interested, please be in touch and we can discuss further. I hope everyone has a wonderful holiday weekend! Best regards, Kristin Kristin Cooney ro*co films educational 80 Liberty Ship Way, Suite 5 Sausalito, CA 94965 415.332.6471 x203 kris...@rocofilms.com www.rocoeducational.com On 7/1/11 9:38 AM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu wrote: Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible pricing. Who else is interested? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu wrote: If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mailto:mattb...@virginia.edu mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Jessica Rosner mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed mailto:peter...@jmu.edu mailto:peter...@jmu.edu peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
For what it's worth I say the same. I do not buy PPR for the library unless there's no option. Bullfrog, WMM, et al., I would buy 10 $30 DVDs with no PPR for every $300 DVD I buy now -- currently just a few a year. Debbie Benrubi Associate Librarian University of San Francisco On 7/1/2011 7:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively. In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any distributor that will make this deal. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media From: James Ball jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu Reply-To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 + To: "videolib@lists.berkeley.edu" videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
I am! Definitely. On 7/1/2011 9:38 AM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) wrote: Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible pricing. Who else is interested? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, "Ball, James (jmb4aw)" jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu wrote: "If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance." It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, "Jessica Rosner" jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
HEY I HAVE THE SOLUTION. Let's do our own Groupons. Say a distributor has a new film about the women fighting for the right to drive in Saudi Arabia ( or any subject you want) They put it up on their site two months before release for pre-orders at $30 each and it tips 750 copies. If they can get the pre-orders than indeed everyone gets them at $30, if not they take it down and sell it to 80 institutions that will buy it at $250 because they have a specific need for it in their courses. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Deborah Benrubi benr...@usfca.edu wrote: ** For what it's worth I say the same. I do not buy PPR for the library unless there's no option. Bullfrog, WMM, et al., I would buy 10 $30 DVDs with no PPR for every $300 DVD I buy now -- currently just a few a year. Debbie Benrubi Associate Librarian University of San Francisco On 7/1/2011 7:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively. In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any distributor that will make this deal. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media From: James Ball jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu Reply-To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:13:23 + To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you’ve become an artist?] A lot of the collecting I do is based on faculty requests but they're requesting Glee and Twilight. An equally large chunk of the collecting I do, though, is based on what I think we *should* have to support broader curricular needs, and a lot of that comes from distributors like Bullfrog, Icarus, Women Make Movies, etc. But those titles are so expensive that I can only afford to buy a few per year. However, if independent documentary filmmakers sold their films for $30.00 each I would increase my total purchases from them times ten, probably more. I'm not kidding. Nothing would make me happier than flipping through catalogs with a shiny red marker circling all of the titles I would love to have. For me, I would be getting amazing content at a cost that aligns with a pricing model that's supportable under the constraints of my institution's collection development strategies and budget priorities. For the filmmakers and distributors it means that I would be buying more titles, possibly multiple copies, of videos that I wouldn't have even considered before, and if I'm willing to do that then I bet there are at least four other media librarians who'd do the same. There, the filmmakers are still making money (maybe more) and the visibility of their films has increased five-fold. Or is it four? Anyway, you see my point. Elizabeth, Meredith, Karen, are you interested? $30.00 per title, no PPR, and I promise to buy at least 10 times the number of titles I bought last year. Or perhaps there's another mutually beneficial pricing model out there... Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jun 24, 2011, at 8:13 PM, Jessica Rosner jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: As someone who works with independent documentary filmmakers, let me tell you they would be THRILLED to sell their films at $25 or $30 if they had a chance in hell of selling 5 times as many as they would at $250. The subject matter is generally geared towards the academic community or at least not to the popular topics that sell in the thousands and they have a lot of expenses to recoup and it is a bitch to distribute. These are simply not the same as the more popular $19.95 to $29.95 videos you will find at the retail level and keep in mind the distributor only gets back 60% or so on thing sold through third parties like Amazon. I assure you if 1500 institutions would actually buy a wonderful series of films on the post genocide justice system in Rwanda or
[Videolib] Re: How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
We're all interested, Matt By the way, flexible doesn't mean basing pricing on institutional enrollment or FTE metrics. gary Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible pricing. Who else is interested? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) jmb...@eservices.virginia.edumailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu wrote: If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mailto:mattb...@virginia.edumattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Jessica Rosner mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.comjessicapros...@gmail.commailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed mailto:peter...@jmu.edumailto:peter...@jmu.edupeter...@jmu.edumailto:peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could purchase films for $30, no PPR, I would buy a lot more titles and be marketing them to my academic community much more aggressively. In fact I'm willing to pinky swear that I will spend the same amount of money OR MORE this fiscal year as my average over the last five years with any distributor that will make this deal. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770tel:%28540%29%20568-6770
[Videolib] I guess we can agree on something
Jessica, too flukey. -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
We at AFD/Typecast Films are always open to negotiating discounts to help libraries or individuals work within tight budgets—especially when multiple titles are ordered. Just give me a call! Though we do have quite a few titles available only with PPR (more obscure titles that folks aren't clamoring for in the Home Video market), we've also got many titles available without PPR for between $20-$30. These are usually titles that had formally been available only at the higher institutional rate with PPR, but I haven't really seen these $20-$30 non-PPR copies being picked up by college/university libraries at 10-times (or even 5-times) the rate they had been when they were available only with PPR. It would be great if they were though! Happy 4th of July holiday ~ Alex _ Alex O. Williams Institutional Sales AFD / Typecast Films Seattle, WA . USA ph: 206.322.0882 x.202 | fx: 206.322.4586 arabfilm.com | typecastfilms.com On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:35 AM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: We're all interested, Matt By the way, flexible doesn't mean basing pricing on institutional enrollment or FTE metrics. gary Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible pricing. Who else is interested? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) jmb...@eservices.virginia.edumailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu wrote: If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] I guess we can agree on something
I actually use a lot of groupons. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 1:54 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Jessica, too flukey. -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
[Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Dear Matt, As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time, we think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more films, so you'll have more than Twilight to buy. So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 1. I trust Twilight is not widely used in the curriculum of the University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and, if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10 to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00 for an i-Tunes. 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection just in case someone needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference collection. 4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are really talking about companies with economic power vs. companies which can be pushed around? Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in a contest between economics and ethics. Best Wishes Larry Lawrence Daressa California Newsreel 500 Third Street, #505 San Francisco, CA 94107 phone: 415.284.7800 x302 fax: 415.284.7801 l...@newsreel.org www.newsreel.org -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5 Send videolib mailing list submissions to videolib@lists.berkeley.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkele y.edu or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu You can reach the person managing the list at videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of videolib digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) 2. Re: How do you know when you?ve become an artist?] (Ball, James (jmb4aw)) -- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 12:28:43 -0400 From: Elizabeth Stanley elizab...@bullfrogfilms.com Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Message-ID: 0d60cf5d39dfde49ab3837411a72fbb203a532e...@bfsbs08.bf.local Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, Matt, You've got my attention.
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself. --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] I guess we can agree on something
I like the Groupon idea. It is all about getting the guaranteed volume. Bob Robert A. Norris Managing Director Film Ideas, Inc. Email: b...@filmideas.com Web:www.filmideas.com www.FIChannels.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
Dear Scott Gary Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES film next week, we will gladly meet your price. Best Jonathan -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself. --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Larry, I'm sorry, but some of your assumptions about how films are being used in the academic curriculum are not correct. Twilight is widely used. Wall-E is widely used. Do you know what is never NOT on reserve? The Simpsons. I'm not just talking about film and television studies courses either. Religion, Philosophy, History, English, Women Studies, etc. etc. Also, the most popular independent documentary in our collection MIGHT circulate 300 times. For the vast majority what we're talking about is single digit circulation. We buy: Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries in 1995 on VHS for $350 (with PPR that we don't need). Professor Sanchez puts it on reserve for her seminar class and it circulates 5 times. Then she doesn't teach that seminar ever again and it never circulates again. Ten years later Professor Sanchez's former grad student, Roger, wants to show it to his ENWR class, but his room doesn't have a VHS player, so we buy it on DVD ($350) put it on reserve he shows it to his class, that's 1 circulation. 2011, Roger decides to teach this class again to his distance ed class, has to have it streaming, now we have to pay again? So $700 for 6 circulations? $116 per use for the same title. How does that make any sense at all for us? So I can shell out another chunk of money for something that's STILL not going to get used, or I can just say, Nope, sorry Roger, too expensive, you'll have to find some other video to teach with. You may think this is an exaggeration. But this is a more common scenario than not. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media On 7/1/11 2:13 PM, Lawrence Daressa l...@newsreel.org wrote: Dear Matt, As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time, we think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more films, so you'll have more than Twilight to buy. So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 1. I trust Twilight is not widely used in the curriculum of the University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and, if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10 to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00 for an i-Tunes. 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection just in case someone needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference collection. 4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are really talking about companies with economic power vs. companies which can be pushed around? Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if there's one thing the
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
Hi Matt, Well play! By my calculations your offer means, based on your purchases from us last year, that you are ready to order 290 titles from us for $60 each (and without PPR). Our only stipulations would be a) no titles from this or last year, and b) place your order before Labor Day! Deal? Meredith Miller Icarus Films 32 Court St, 21st Floor Brooklyn, NY 11201 P: 1.718.488.8900 F: 1.718.488.8642 E: mered...@icarusfilms.com www.icarusfilms.com http://www.twitter.com/icarusfilms www.twitter.com/icarusfilms http://www.facebook.com/icarusfilms www.facebook.com/icarusfilms From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw) Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:39 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?] Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible pricing. Who else is interested? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu wrote: If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Jessica Rosner jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of educational films and small distributors are not going to cherry pick one mildly popular title try to sell it for a lot less. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Hear, Hear. Jessica is correct in saying that there's a limited market for the films independent distributor's deal with. We, the librarians, know that better than anyone because there's limited viewership for those titles once they're in our collection. It's impossible for me to justify purchasing a film for my collection that costs $200, $300, $400 or more just because *I* think it looks like a worthy title. It has to be for a direct and immediate academic need. Then there's the added temptation once we do have it, to lock-it up like it's the Hope Diamond, because we paid a small fortune for it. Thus, even further reducing the film's exposure to a broader audience. If I could
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
Jon You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week. gary Dear Scott Gary Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES film next week, we will gladly meet your price. Best Jonathan -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself. --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Larry, and everyone, What a great discussion we've entered into! Larry, I'm on my way to Boston and will try to reply once I get there. Also, thanks to everyone who has contacted me off-list. I'm clearing my calendar for Tuesday when I'm back at work and look forward to talking with you all. Cheers, Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:25 PM, Lawrence Daressa l...@newsreel.org wrote: Dear Matt, As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time, we think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more films, so you'll have more than Twilight to buy. So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 1. I trust Twilight is not widely used in the curriculum of the University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and, if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10 to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00 for an i-Tunes. 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection just in case someone needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference collection. 4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are really talking about companies with economic power vs. companies which can be pushed around? Newsreel admits that it can be pushed around and independent filmmakers can be pushed around as well. That's our crusts and margarine.. And if there's one thing the past few years have demonstrated, it's who wins in a contest between economics and ethics. Best Wishes Larry Lawrence Daressa California Newsreel 500 Third Street, #505 San Francisco, CA 94107 phone: 415.284.7800 x302 fax: 415.284.7801 l...@newsreel.org www.newsreel.org -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 9:39 AM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 5 Send videolib mailing list submissions to videolib@lists.berkeley.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkele y.edu or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu You can reach the person managing the list at videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of videolib digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: How do you know when you've become an artist?] Fair Pricing for Independent Documentaries (Elizabeth Stanley) 2.
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
Ok, so tell me - when? JM -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:45 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. Jon You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week. gary Dear Scott Gary Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES film next week, we will gladly meet your price. Best Jonathan -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself. --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
Submitting my order for Bees now. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media On 7/1/11 2:28 PM, Jonathan Miller jmil...@icarusfilms.com wrote: Dear Scott Gary Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES film next week, we will gladly meet your price. Best Jonathan -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself. --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
Maybe distributor's interested in the experiment could make some Groupon type offers available at NMM? E * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media On 7/1/11 2:44 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: Jon You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week. gary Dear Scott Gary Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES film next week, we will gladly meet your price. Best Jonathan -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself. --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Not an exaggeration (by the way from whom did you buy that lesbian frog doc? Sounds like it would be useful at Berkeley) The one thing that I think you're not taking into account, Erika, is collection development for longer term research (as opposed to immediate support of specific curricula). The real danger of shrinking budgets and unbudging economic models for research collections is the very real possibility that the former will become less and less supportable. Again, I'm increasingly catching myself passing on interesting and valuable higher priced titles unless there's a demonstrated or articulated curricular or research need. This is definitely true when it comes to licensing to stream. Depressing! Larry, I'm sorry, but some of your assumptions about how films are being used in the academic curriculum are not correct. Twilight is widely used. Wall-E is widely used. Do you know what is never NOT on reserve? The Simpsons. I'm not just talking about film and television studies courses either. Religion, Philosophy, History, English, Women Studies, etc. etc. Also, the most popular independent documentary in our collection MIGHT circulate 300 times. For the vast majority what we're talking about is single digit circulation. We buy: Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries in 1995 on VHS for $350 (with PPR that we don't need). Professor Sanchez puts it on reserve for her seminar class and it circulates 5 times. Then she doesn't teach that seminar ever again and it never circulates again. Ten years later Professor Sanchez's former grad student, Roger, wants to show it to his ENWR class, but his room doesn't have a VHS player, so we buy it on DVD ($350) put it on reserve he shows it to his class, that's 1 circulation. 2011, Roger decides to teach this class again to his distance ed class, has to have it streaming, now we have to pay again? So $700 for 6 circulations? $116 per use for the same title. How does that make any sense at all for us? So I can shell out another chunk of money for something that's STILL not going to get used, or I can just say, Nope, sorry Roger, too expensive, you'll have to find some other video to teach with. You may think this is an exaggeration. But this is a more common scenario than not. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media On 7/1/11 2:13 PM, Lawrence Daressa l...@newsreel.org wrote: Dear Matt, As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time, we think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more films, so you'll have more than Twilight to buy. So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 1. I trust Twilight is not widely used in the curriculum of the University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and, if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10 to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00 for an i-Tunes. 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection just in case someone needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference collection. 4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% discount
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Good point, Gary. I too am far less inclined to make purchases to fill out my collection or support these longer term needs than I was 5 years ago-- to the detriment of all. E * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media On 7/1/11 2:54 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: Not an exaggeration (by the way from whom did you buy that lesbian frog doc? Sounds like it would be useful at Berkeley) The one thing that I think you're not taking into account, Erika, is collection development for longer term research (as opposed to immediate support of specific curricula). The real danger of shrinking budgets and unbudging economic models for research collections is the very real possibility that the former will become less and less supportable. Again, I'm increasingly catching myself passing on interesting and valuable higher priced titles unless there's a demonstrated or articulated curricular or research need. This is definitely true when it comes to licensing to stream. Depressing! Larry, I'm sorry, but some of your assumptions about how films are being used in the academic curriculum are not correct. Twilight is widely used. Wall-E is widely used. Do you know what is never NOT on reserve? The Simpsons. I'm not just talking about film and television studies courses either. Religion, Philosophy, History, English, Women Studies, etc. etc. Also, the most popular independent documentary in our collection MIGHT circulate 300 times. For the vast majority what we're talking about is single digit circulation. We buy: Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries in 1995 on VHS for $350 (with PPR that we don't need). Professor Sanchez puts it on reserve for her seminar class and it circulates 5 times. Then she doesn't teach that seminar ever again and it never circulates again. Ten years later Professor Sanchez's former grad student, Roger, wants to show it to his ENWR class, but his room doesn't have a VHS player, so we buy it on DVD ($350) put it on reserve he shows it to his class, that's 1 circulation. 2011, Roger decides to teach this class again to his distance ed class, has to have it streaming, now we have to pay again? So $700 for 6 circulations? $116 per use for the same title. How does that make any sense at all for us? So I can shell out another chunk of money for something that's STILL not going to get used, or I can just say, Nope, sorry Roger, too expensive, you'll have to find some other video to teach with. You may think this is an exaggeration. But this is a more common scenario than not. Erika ** * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media On 7/1/11 2:13 PM, Lawrence Daressa l...@newsreel.org wrote: Dear Matt, As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time, we think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more films, so you'll have more than Twilight to buy. So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 1. I trust Twilight is not widely used in the curriculum of the University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and, if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10 to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00 for an i-Tunes. 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection just in case someone needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
I once turned down a French film on Mollusks of the North Atlantic that was subtitled in English. I told them, If only it had voice-over Best, Elizabeth Elizabeth Sheldon Vice President Kino Lorber, Inc. 333 W. 39th St., Suite 503 New York, NY 10018 (212) 629-6880 On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Jessica Rosner wrote: Hey Erika are you sure it was Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries and not my oft mentioned The Basket Weaving Lesbian Co-Operatives of Boliva? Again great minds think alike for mock educational titles. One repsonse to your example though, how many libraries would buy Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries If it were $30 sans PPR? That I am afraid is the problem. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Peterson, Erika Day - petersed peter...@jmu.edu wrote: Larry, I'm sorry, but some of your assumptions about how films are being used in the academic curriculum are not correct. Twilight is widely used. Wall-E is widely used. Do you know what is never NOT on reserve? The Simpsons. I'm not just talking about film and television studies courses either. Religion, Philosophy, History, English, Women Studies, etc. etc. Also, the most popular independent documentary in our collection MIGHT circulate 300 times. For the vast majority what we're talking about is single digit circulation. We buy: Lesbians Who Save Frogs in Third World Countries in 1995 on VHS for $350 (with PPR that we don't need). Professor Sanchez puts it on reserve for her seminar class and it circulates 5 times. Then she doesn't teach that seminar ever again and it never circulates again. Ten years later Professor Sanchez's former grad student, Roger, wants to show it to his ENWR class, but his room doesn't have a VHS player, so we buy it on DVD ($350) put it on reserve he shows it to his class, that's 1 circulation. 2011, Roger decides to teach this class again to his distance ed class, has to have it streaming, now we have to pay again? So $700 for 6 circulations? $116 per use for the same title. How does that make any sense at all for us? So I can shell out another chunk of money for something that's STILL not going to get used, or I can just say, Nope, sorry Roger, too expensive, you'll have to find some other video to teach with. You may think this is an exaggeration. But this is a more common scenario than not. Erika * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media On 7/1/11 2:13 PM, Lawrence Daressa l...@newsreel.org wrote: Dear Matt, As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time, we think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more films, so you'll have more than Twilight to buy. So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 1. I trust Twilight is not widely used in the curriculum of the University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and, if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10 to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00 for an i-Tunes. 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection just in case someone needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
I would be happy to organize some kind of offer at NMM! Ursula Schwarz National Media Market P.O. Box 87410 Tucson, AZ 85754-7410 (520) 743-7735 http://www.nmm.net/ From: Peterson, Erika Day - petersed peter...@jmu.edu Reply-To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 18:50:59 + To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. Maybe distributor's interested in the experiment could make some Groupon type offers available at NMM? E * * * * * * Erika Peterson Director of Media Resources Carrier Library, James Madison University (540) 568-6770 http://www.lib.jmu.edu/media On 7/1/11 2:44 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: Jon You can't organize 100 to do ANYTHING, let alone do it next week. gary Dear Scott Gary Sure! If you can organize 100 libraries to order our (new! Great!) BEES film next week, we will gladly meet your price. Best Jonathan -Original Message- From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of ghand...@library.berkeley.edu Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 2:22 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself. --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Everyone, This is a really important discussion to have that goes to the core of so much, though perhaps difficult to have it effectively on a listserv -- and right before a long weekend. We might need to take this into another forum to try to come up with some solutions that work for all -- media librarians, distributors and producers. All parties need to better understand the changing financial realities and other forces that we must adapt to. I've worked with a number of producers and distributors over the years, most recently The Video Project. Pricing has always been a really troubling issue, as you know. Many distributors have experimented with home video level pricing and it hasn't produced nearly enough return to warrant substantially reducing pricing. And now, there are new challenges with budget cuts, the web, digital options, and many producer opting for limited or full self-distribution (and not knowing what they're doing, in many cases, unfortunately). I think it needs to be said that college and university media purchases have been the primary revenue base for smaller doc distributors. In effect, they've supported the making and distribution of independent documentaries, not to mention being the lifeblood of distributors. Without that base of support, I don't think we'd see for much longer the kind of documentaries that are currently being made. And it's already a serious challenge. Few filmmakers ever make back the hundreds of thousands of dollars they may put into producing a film. So, we need to come up with some collective solutions that will work for all parties. Anyone have a suggestion for how and where we can best pursue this? NMM is one option of course. Maybe there could be some in person regional discussion before that. And is there another online forum that would work better? Best, Steve Ladd -- -- 925.254-2052 -- st...@laddmedia.com -- http://www.laddmedia.com/ -- http://www.videoproject.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
[Videolib] Attend the National Media Market - negotiate video pricing
Hi folks, We seemed to have branched from circulation to pricing... I'm throwing in a plug here encouraging folks to attend the National Media Market. The NMM really is a great way to get to talk about these issues with librarians and video vendors. It isn't the exhibit hall hell of ALA. You literally get to sit down and talk about your library's needs. Ask the vendors about discounts. Most can't sell you new releases for $30, but most have room to negotiate. http://nmm.net/ Barb Bergman | Media Services Interlibrary Loan Librarian | Minnesota State University, Mankato | (507) 389-5945 | barbara.berg...@mnsu.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion..
In response to the Groupon suggestion and Gary's query, Filmakers Library would love to participate. We'll put our heads together and come up with a specific offer either for NMM or before, but consider us interested! Linda On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:22 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Gary Handman Director Media Resources Center Moffitt Library UC Berkeley 510-643-8566 ghand...@library.berkeley.edu http://www.lib.berkeley.edu/MRC I have always preferred the reflection of life to life itself. --Francois Truffaut VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. Linda Gottesman Filmakers Library, Inc. 124 E 40th Street NY, NY 10016 212-808-4980 li...@filmakers.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors.
Re: [Videolib] videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 22
Jon, I pitched this to our Entymology Librarian, and we are in for The Strange Disappearance of Bees. So 98 more to go for the $200 price? ;) I don't want to play my hand but one of our Entymology faculty, Dr. Marla Spivak, just won a MacArthur Genius grant and I'm told we have this new Bee Lab to study this monumental problem, so we will likely need to purchase the 3 or 4 bee disappearance films. Come on folks, just need 98 more... Jon, we'll be in touch :-) -Scott On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:04 PM, videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu wrote: Send videolib mailing list submissions to videolib@lists.berkeley.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkeley.edu or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu You can reach the person managing the list at videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of videolib digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Groupon suggestion.. (Linda Gottesman) -- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:42:06 -0400 From: Linda Gottesman li...@filmakers.com Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Message-ID: a4cf1f33-63be-4d8a-9d21-4412e5c8d...@filmakers.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In response to the Groupon suggestion and Gary's query, Filmakers Library would love to participate. We'll put our heads together and come up with a specific offer either for NMM or before, but consider us interested! Linda On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:22 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool
Re: [Videolib] videolib Digest, Vol 44, Issue 22
Count me in. 97 left. gary Jon, I pitched this to our Entymology Librarian, and we are in for The Strange Disappearance of Bees. So 98 more to go for the $200 price? ;) I don't want to play my hand but one of our Entymology faculty, Dr. Marla Spivak, just won a MacArthur Genius grant and I'm told we have this new Bee Lab to study this monumental problem, so we will likely need to purchase the 3 or 4 bee disappearance films. Come on folks, just need 98 more... Jon, we'll be in touch :-) -Scott On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 3:04 PM, videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu wrote: Send videolib mailing list submissions to videolib@lists.berkeley.edu To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://calmail.berkeley.edu/manage/list/listinfo/videolib@lists.berkeley.edu or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to videolib-requ...@lists.berkeley.edu You can reach the person managing the list at videolib-ow...@lists.berkeley.edu When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of videolib digest... Today's Topics: 1. Re: Groupon suggestion.. (Linda Gottesman) -- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 15:42:06 -0400 From: Linda Gottesman li...@filmakers.com Subject: Re: [Videolib] Groupon suggestion.. To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Message-ID: a4cf1f33-63be-4d8a-9d21-4412e5c8d...@filmakers.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In response to the Groupon suggestion and Gary's query, Filmakers Library would love to participate. We'll put our heads together and come up with a specific offer either for NMM or before, but consider us interested! Linda On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:22 PM, ghand...@library.berkeley.edu wrote: I'd like to hear from John and Winnie from Bullfrog, Jon Miller from Icarus, Larry Daressa from California Newsreel, Debbie Zimmerman from WMM, and whoever is in charge of Filmakers...and other indie distributors Gary I think I was 15 minutes ahead of you, but then I just read a Vanity Fair profile on Groupon. I think we could try to set something up, however the issue with current older titles might be libraries who bought them at full price getting upset, but i guess you can't do much about that. I do think trying this with new releases would be a way to start. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 2:03 PM, scott spicer spic0...@umn.edu wrote: Apologies for the spamming, but this got buried in the thread on post. I am interested to hear folks take on this, and it appears Jessica reached a similar conclusion at the same time: Just a thought experiment here... I understand that smaller distributors do not want to devalue their collections by cherry picking individual titles for substantially lowered costs and am sensitive to Jessica's claim that lowering prices would not necessarily make up for lost sales in terms of volume. You gotta give us video librarians a fighting chance. Challenging times call for creative solutions. So I propose we crowd source this thing...in the spirit of Elizabeth Stanley, we need a Groupon/Social Living service for Indies/educational media. Picture it: for one day (or week) only, The Strange Disappearance of Bees is $200 or The Big Sellout is $100 (PPR negotiated separately if needed). Let's say price predicated on collective volume sales of at least 50 units, offer ends at 500 takers. Only 5 titles can go up at any given point, and only once a year. Open to all filmmakers/distributors targeting the academic market (with a small percentage of sales recouped for promotion and maintenance). Thoughts? -Scott -- Scott Spicer Media Outreach and Learning Spaces Librarian University of Minnesota Libraries - Twin Cities 341 Walter Library spic0...@umn.edu612.626.0629 Media Services: lib.umn.edu/media SMART Learning Commons: smart.umn.edu VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list will serve as an effective working tool for video librarians, as well as a channel of communication between libraries,educational institutions, and video producers and distributors. -- Jessica Rosner Media Consultant 224-545-3897 (cell) 212-627-1785 (land line) jessicapros...@gmail.com VIDEOLIB is intended to encourage the broad and lively discussion of issues relating to the selection, evaluation, acquisition,bibliographic control, preservation, and use of current and evolving video formats in libraries and related institutions. It is hoped that the list
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you've become an artist?
Hi Larry, First of all, thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful response. You'll find my comments below. As a non-profit organization, Newsreel feels our first commitment is get our films seen by as many people as possible, so we would prefer you to buy ten films at $30 dollars, than one at $300. But, at the same time, we think it's important to pay the producers of a film a royalty which reflects its use and value in education; in that way they can make more films, so you'll have more than Twilight to buy. MATT SAYS: I'm on board with that. So, your post raises a few idle questions in my mind. 1. I trust Twilight is not widely used in the curriculum of the University of Virginia. Students traditionally have not read or seen what they wanted but what they were assigned. This may have changed and, if so, you should have no trouble finding appropriate instruction media for $19.95 a DVD. But it would seem unnecessary for the University to buy that title since it's been demonstrated those students will pay $10 to see it anyhow at commercial theatres or pay $19.95 for a DVD or $2.00 for an i-Tunes. MATT SAYS: Actually, we have Twilight and Glee because they were requested by faculty for their classes. Even if students are required to purchase copies of required videos we would still likely purchase copies for the library's collection if they aligned with UVa's curricular priorities. I'm so bad at analogies, but maybe it's akin to having copies of Jane Eyre and The Bluest Eye in the library even though it's easy, cheap, and likely that students will buy them for themselves. As librarians, our mission is to collect, preserve, and provide access to the cultural record, not to sound too high-faulted(sp), and with a media studies department that means collecting all kinds of things. 2. Filmmakers always ask us if students can afford to pay those amounts (to say nothing of $50 or $100 for a rock concert), why they, their parents or the taxpayers will only pay pennies for them to see a serious educational documentary. If over the life of a DVD or digital license 300 people saw a film at the University of Virginia, the effective price at $30 would be $.10. I suspect if a title were used at all widely in the curriculum that would be possible. Similarly, if five students use a $150 textbook (resold four times) the effective price is $30 or 300 time more. Aren't we really talking about an issue of values rather than economics? Entertainment vs. education; print vs. moving images? MATT SAYS: LOL, don't get me started on valuing print more than video, or anything more than video for that matter. And as for why students and their larents are willing to lay for some things but not others, that's as big a mystery to me as it is to you. As for cost-per-use, I try to save that kind of calculus for database subscriptions rather than for items that the library purchases outright. As i mentioned, part of our mission as librarians, and my mission as the head of a media center, is to collect and preserve the cultural record, regardless of it's perceived value or how often it's used. However, I have a limited budget so the more expensive an item is the more I do think about how much use it might get. Which is exactly my point. When something costs $30.00 I'm less likely to worry about that than if it costs $300.00. 3, If a title is bought for reference use, like a scholarly monograph, (in Gary's distinction, if it's in the collection just in case someone needs to consult it), I agree $30 would be a reasonable price. In that case, would you be willing to limits its use to 30 people, $1 per screening, less than an article from J-Stor? I find it hard to believe that in the digital age its use couldn't be metered. It seems fair to pay a low royalty to the producer of a film which is rarely used but unfair to pay the same royalty to a producer whose film is seen by hundreds of students or to ask that producer to subsidize your reference collection. MATT SAYS: This is not how libraries operate. At least, not for items that the library owns outright. We buy something and as many people who want to can check it out as many times as they want. I've learned that many distributors *do* think in terms of cost-per-use, but it's simply not how we operate. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by for reference use. 4. Broadly speaking you're asking distributors to give you a 90% discount on our products. What if we were to say, we would be delighted to do that the minute Elsevier or Sage or the University of Virginia Press matched our offer? Or when your telephone, internet or electricity provider does the same? Have you thought of going to them and saying you had a budget crunch so could they please give you a 90% cut in your telephone bill? Could you also promise them that if they did you would make ten times as many telephone calls? Perhaps in this case, we are really
Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?]
Excellent! Glad you want to play. I was proposing a pricing model as a new paradigm for doing business rather than something that's more of a limited time special offer. No titles from the last two years, order in by Labor Day? Still, let's talk on Tuesday when I get back to the office. Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 2:45 PM, Meredith Miller mered...@icarusfilms.commailto:mered...@icarusfilms.com wrote: Hi Matt, We’ll play! By my calculations your offer means, based on your purchases from us last year, that you are ready to order 290 titles from us for $60 each (and without PPR). Our only stipulations would be a) no titles from this or last year, and b) place your order before Labor Day! Deal? Meredith Miller Icarus Films 32 Court St, 21st Floor Brooklyn, NY 11201 P: 1.718.488.8900 F: 1.718.488.8642 E: mailto:mered...@icarusfilms.com mered...@icarusfilms.commailto:mered...@icarusfilms.com www.icarusfilms.com www.twitter.com/icarusfilmshttp://www.twitter.com/icarusfilms www.facebook.com/icarusfilmshttp://www.facebook.com/icarusfilms From: videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu [mailto:videolib-boun...@lists.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Ball, James (jmb4aw) Sent: Friday, July 01, 2011 12:39 PM To: videolib@lists.berkeley.edumailto:videolib@lists.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: [Videolib] How do you know when you¹ve become an artist?] Just got my first offer from a distributor who wants to work on flexible pricing. Who else is interested? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mailto:mattb...@virginia.edumattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 12:36 PM, Ball, James (jmb4aw) mailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edujmb...@eservices.virginia.edumailto:jmb...@eservices.virginia.edu wrote: If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. It's not up to the library community to make assurances for the distributors, but together we can figure out a pricing model that's mutually beneficial. It is interesting that you mention Kino because they are one of the few distributors I know of that do follow my suggested pricing model, around $30.00 with no PPR, and I can tell you that I bought a lot more from them last year than I did from the other distributors. As for the 10 times guarantee, I just made that very promise. And I'm even flexible on the price. How about $60.00 with no PPR? Erika's offer looks pretty interesting too. Anybody want to take a test drive? Matt __ Matt Ball Media and Collections Librarian University of Virginia mailto:mattb...@virginia.edumattb...@virginia.edumailto:mattb...@virginia.edu 434-924-3812 On Jul 1, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Jessica Rosner mailto:jessicapros...@gmail.comjessicapros...@gmail.commailto:jessicapros...@gmail.com wrote: Trust me, educational distributors would be thrilled if they could sell copies at $30 and basically make the same sum at selling it at $300, but it will never happen. I don't doubt you and James will buy a copy of films you would not otherwise, but many educational titles deal with very specialized subjects and they are not going to sell 2.000 copies. Keep in mind that it would also require a lot more time money from a company and the real kicker is they would still have to only do direct sales, nearly all to institutions. In order for a film to be really retail they would have to sell 20 times as many copies since wholesalers would take up to 50% of the price. Years ago I did a little experiment at Kino to see if there could be a middle ground. I curated a 3 title collection of silent films directed by women. I believe it was something $50 for institutions and $25 for individuals per title with a discount for the set. Sold about 200 at $50 each( or less as a set) did come close to covering the costs and a few dozen to individuals. Luckily there had been a TV sale which allowed me to fund the project. I thought $50 and $125 seemed like a nice middle ground but in truth had I sold them two or three times that, they would have made more money. Most of the institutions would still have purchased them and more than made up for some that would not have. If the library community wants to figure out a way to assure distributors they will literally sell 10 times the number of copies if they sell titles at $30 a pop, I guarantee you distributors would jump at the chance. Filmmakers would be especially happy because there films would be seen by more people. Sadly it is just not realistic for the vast majority of
