[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Hello Martin, Yes, you'll see that the extract I quoted does indeed refer to the chitarrone. But by c 1600 (ie by1602/1614) the 'tiorba' was considered synonymous with the 'chitarrone' suggesting that at this time Caccini really did mean the instrument with extended basses (various sources). Before this, as I mentioned earlier (and as Bob Spencer's excellent paper makes clear) chitarrone may well have meant just a restrung bass lute. Though, of course, we know that Caccini himself sang his songs in the 1580/90s (possibly some of them date from the 1570s), well before 1602, so an ordinary restrung 6 or 7 course bass (or great bass) lute may have been employed at that time (incidentally, I don't think we have much if any evidence that 10 course lutes were used in the 1570/80s - the painting to which you refer dates from 1610/20 and similar representations by Molenaer to c. 1630). The context is: what instrument would purchasers of his 1602 and 1614 collections used and, bearing in mind the continued influence and popularity of these works, also what later players and might have used. The reason why all this is on the Vihuela list is that the thread is to do with guitars and in this case the similarity between guitar tunings and theorbo/chitarrone tuning in that there are places where the accompanying bass may be above the voice. But as others have already pointed out the theorbo bass line is still very evident even where this does occur. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 19/12/11, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 16:57 Dear All, Yes, as far as I remember Caccini only talks about chitarrone, not tiorba. It may well be that the two names become synonymous later on, and when we talk of a theorbo we mean a long-necked instrument with the top two courses at the lower octave. If we believe Piccinini, the long neck first appeared in 1595, and in any case we seem to believe him when he tells us that bass lutes could have just the first string re-entrant as long as they weren't too big. It seems the best guess we can make is that, at least in the early days, Caccini's chitarrone was in fact a short-necked bass lute (with 8-10 courses?) with re-entrant tuning of one or both of the top two courses. This would solve most of the problems of chromatic bass notes, 11-10 progressions, etc. I think also of Victoria (whatshername - Archilei?) singing in the Florentine Intermedii of 1589 to her own accompaniment on a liuto grande, and Saraceni's St.Cecilia painting showing a large 8c(?) lute with 8 frets on the neck and the bottom two courses on a short extension. Best wishes, Martin P.S. We seem to have migrated to lutes and theorboes - should all this be on the vihuela list?! On 19/12/2011 16:05, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Dear Stewart I agree with almost everything you write (especially about RD's Musicall Banquet!) - I noticed it after sending and wondered who, if any, would spot it first.. But I can't claim is what a deliberate error. Caccini doesn't say one has to only perform his songs to the theorbo - but rather that it is the best accompanying instrument for the voice (particularly the tenor). And I do agree that the composer would have written his music to be performed by a wide variety of instruments. However the question I was originally asked was whether Caccini would have sang to the theorbo since Striggio had reported him singing to the lute. The answer is yes. The use of compound figures has been discussed before I recall. One must bear in mind that the theorbo isn't always the large instrument requiring both top courses the octave down so higher notes are more practicable than might suppose. I suspect an instrument in nominal A or G with just the first course an octave down was much more common throughout the 17th century than is the practice nowadays. I have such an instrument (fingered string length 76cm with double fingerboard courses) and find it a real joy to play this instrument when accompanying such things as English continuo songs by Lanier, Lawes and the like and contemporary French songs by Lambert and LeCamus. regards Martyn --- On Mon, 19/12/11, Stewart McCoy[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Stewart McCoy[2]lu...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument To: Vihuela List[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 19 December, 2011, 11
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Dear Stewart, We all seem to think that the printed bass line is what should be played ideally. And probably it was played like it is on the keyboard (which Caccini was master of). In practice (on his beloved theorbo?) adaptations would have to be made regarding octaves, and, as an exception, the bass may have crossed the tenor. I just don't think we can say that the music was written (notated) with the theorbo in mind, although in the end even that could be merely a semantic discussion. I am aware that there was music 'in theory' and music 'in practice'. This endless thread started with Martyn's question whether raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realization differs substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar. Both solutions are a practical in the first place. But on the guitar (in alfabeto) you don't really raise basses to other octaves, as 'parts' are mixed up all the time. What would be an exception on a bass instrument (theorbo) is ubiquitous in guitar accompaniment. That seems an essential difference. best, Lex - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument Dear Lex, One hesitates to mention it without 101 caveats, but what about a theorbo in G? Evidence for such an instrument is pretty thin on the ground (pace Praetorius), but at least some of Caccini's songs are in flattish keys which would favour a theorbo in G. I have not played any Caccini for a long time and cannot remember, but could the missing notes be provided by re-tuning the relevant string - e.g. have F# at the expense of F natural - or are there songs where you need both? The other possibility is that Caccini did not have only the theorbo in mind, but wrote bass parts for all instruments, expecting the player to adapt what he saw for his own particular instrument. Lutes were more common than theorboes, and may have been used by at least some people buying Caccini's book. The missing chromatic notes would have been available as stopped notes on the lute. Best wishes, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Martyn Hodgson Sent: 19 December 2011 09:57 To: Vihuela List Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument Dear Lex, As you say it does all seem a bit endless.. But might I suggest one reason (amongst others) why it may seem so: only yesterday I gave a direct quote from Caccini's own, very influential, book which very clearly has Caccini saying the chitarrone is the most suitable instrument of any to accompany the voice. Since you're cropping messages others may miss what Caccini himself had to say, so here is that earlier message again. I say others since I've seen messages saying what about theorbos in a nominal G as well as those in A... --- Thanks Lex, Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V 'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che qualunque altro.') Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to accompany himself before 1594. The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a sung d and f# in the bass. I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs by Caccini and his contemporaries. regards Martyn To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
But on the guitar (in alfabeto) you don't really raise basses to other octaves, as 'parts' are mixed up all the time. What would be an exception on a bass instrument (theorbo) is ubiquitous in guitar accompaniment. That seems an essential difference. I think that the essential difference is that when strumming an accompaniment you are not going to reproduce the bass line at all. Bringing in Caccini was really irrelevant. However, later on - post Foscarini 1640 - when the bass line was reproduced in the accompaniment there may have been odd occasions when the bass line might have crossed with a voice part because of the lack of a low G but I can't think of any actual examples. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 8:28 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument Dear Stewart, We all seem to think that the printed bass line is what should be played ideally. And probably it was played like it is on the keyboard (which Caccini was master of). In practice (on his beloved theorbo?) adaptations would have to be made regarding octaves, and, as an exception, the bass may have crossed the tenor. I just don't think we can say that the music was written (notated) with the theorbo in mind, although in the end even that could be merely a semantic discussion. I am aware that there was music 'in theory' and music 'in practice'. This endless thread started with Martyn's question whether raising the bass an octave in a theorbo realization differs substantially from doing the same sort of thing on the guitar. Both solutions are a practical in the first place. But on the guitar (in alfabeto) you don't really raise basses to other octaves, as 'parts' are mixed up all the time. What would be an exception on a bass instrument (theorbo) is ubiquitous in guitar accompaniment. That seems an essential difference. best, Lex - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 12:55 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument Dear Lex, One hesitates to mention it without 101 caveats, but what about a theorbo in G? Evidence for such an instrument is pretty thin on the ground (pace Praetorius), but at least some of Caccini's songs are in flattish keys which would favour a theorbo in G. I have not played any Caccini for a long time and cannot remember, but could the missing notes be provided by re-tuning the relevant string - e.g. have F# at the expense of F natural - or are there songs where you need both? The other possibility is that Caccini did not have only the theorbo in mind, but wrote bass parts for all instruments, expecting the player to adapt what he saw for his own particular instrument. Lutes were more common than theorboes, and may have been used by at least some people buying Caccini's book. The missing chromatic notes would have been available as stopped notes on the lute. Best wishes, Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
All this is very interesting. I couldn't actually track down the song.
Which of Caccini's books is it in?
I had never realized that the mighty theorbo had problems reproducing the
bass line! But from what you say it seems that it is the same as on the
guitar. The lowest note is A with a bourdon. You have to go up an octave
to get the G. This doesn't really matter - it just means that the parts
are sometimes inverted - the bass comes above the treble. Our ears
can adapt to these things.
Regards
Monica
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 12:24 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso continuo
{was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex,
Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to
accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
qualunque altro.')
Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to
accompany himself before 1594.
The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
sung d and f# in the bass.
I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is
certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
by Caccini and his contemporaries.
regards
Martyn
PS Also see my recent message about email protocol, with which you may
not agree...
--- On Sun, 18/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Strumming as basso continuo {was: Return to
earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar [was Re: Capona?]}
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Sunday, 18 December, 2011, 11:11
Dear Martyn,
I understand that there is a problem with the theorbo in A, in
Caccini's 'Reggami.'
According to Alessandro Striggio the elder Caccini could accompany from
a bass on the lute and harpsichord. So, what would be the right
instrument/tuning for this song?
Lex
Other types of specific examples include Caccini's 'Reggami per
pieta'
where the singer has a low F# which has to be played by the BC an
octave higher since there are necessary low F naturals elsewhere in
the
piece.
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Well - as Martyn pointed out - even with a lute in G there are situations where you would have to play an F sharp up an octave even if the instrument had extended basses. There are quite a few later French sources which clearly indicate this. You yourself have quoted Campion in your article - it is not necessary to be preoccupied by the jumping of the bass from low to high register. It is sufficient that the note is there . Even on the harpsichord etc Why should it not be acceptable? Inverting the parts works in practice - for most of us. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 3:33 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument - Original Message - From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 3:56 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument What other instrument do you suppose that he had in mind then? The only instrument with a large enough compass to be able to reproduce the bass line below the voice part in every set of circumstances would be a keyboard instrument and possibly not all of these. Striggio reported that Caccini could accompany from a bass on the lute or keyboard. And there were (arch)lutes around in traditional G tuning. I know that Caccini says that he prefers the chitarrone for accompaniment. But did he always, and for everything? We have a certain situation in one of his songs which would be hard to play on the theorbo in A without raising the bass above the tenor voice. Does that prove conclusively that Caccini accepted voice crossings of bass and tenor? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
You yourself have quoted Campion in your article - it is not necessary to be preoccupied by the jumping of the bass from low to high register. It is sufficient that the note is there . Even on the harpsichord etc But what Campion doesn't say is whether the bass would rise above other parts. Why should it not be acceptable? Inverting the parts works in practice - for most of us. The discussion was about Caccini and voice crossings. I have no particular interest in what would work for most of you. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 14:56:46 -, Monica Hall wrote What other instrument do you suppose that he had in mind then? The only instrument with a large enough compass to be able to reproduce the bass line below the voice part in every set of circumstances would be a keyboard instrument and possibly not all of these. Harp, esp. the triple row version. Cheers, Ralf Mattes To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011 15:33:43 +0100, Lex Eisenhardt wrote
Bass lines may sometimes have been simplified, and thus some of
the problems could be avoided. Occasional voice crossings with the
bass perhaps were sometimes accepted (but probably not by everyone). L
But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with
voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which
would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example
where this would happen with a theorbo ...
Cheers, Ralf Mattes
- Original Message -
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 1:24 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument {was Re: Strumming as basso
continuo {was: Return to earlier question: {was: Agazzari guitar
[was Re: Capona?]}
Thanks Lex,
Caccini can speak for himself: 'the chitarrone is better suited to
accompany the voice, especially the tenor, than any other
instrument'.(G. Caccini, Le Nuove Musiche (Florence, 1602), sig. C2V
'Ai Lettori ... del Chitarrone ... essendo questo strumento piu atto
ad accompagnare la voce, e particolarmente quella del Tenore, che
qualunque altro.')
Further, Piccinini(1623) tells us Caccini used a chitarrone to
accompany himself before 1594.
The chitarrone did not, of course, at first have numerous long extended
basses. However it was tuned in a nominal A or G so, as previously
pointed out, the same problem would arise even if tuned in G with a
sung d and f# in the bass.
I suspect Striggio was using the term lute in a generic sense: it is
certainly not 'wrong' to use any form of lute from around this time to
perform his songs. See Rob Dowland Var of lute lessons for example and
Ms 704 Bib Con Brussels which contains intabulated settings of songs
by Caccini and his contemporaries.
regards
Martyn
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
R. Mattes -
Hochschule fuer Musik Freiburg
r...@inm.mh-freiburg.de
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example where this would happen with a theorbo ... Cheers, Ralf Mattes Crossings with the outer voices involved are often considered problematic. There are probably very few examples of a figured bass, rising above the other melodies. In this specific example of the Caccini song it is the tuning of the bass courses of the theorbo in A which invites the idea of playing some notes in a higher octave, above the tenor. It is strikingly different from what he has notated in his own printed score, which may represent what he has played himself. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
So far no-one has told me where I can find the song in question. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example where this would happen with a theorbo ... Cheers, Ralf Mattes Crossings with the outer voices involved are often considered problematic. There are probably very few examples of a figured bass, rising above the other melodies. In this specific example of the Caccini song it is the tuning of the bass courses of the theorbo in A which invites the idea of playing some notes in a higher octave, above the tenor. It is strikingly different from what he has notated in his own printed score, which may represent what he has played himself. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Priase God for the voice of common sense. Monica - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:22 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Caccini's instrument Dear Lex, There is nothing wrong with the bass line of the theorbo crossing above the tenor here and there, because those high notes are still perceived as the bass line. I have on my lap a copy of _Yorke Solos for Double Bass and Piano_, ed. Rodney Slatford (London: Yorke Edition, 1984). If the solo part were played at the written pitch, e.g. by a cello, the piano part would underpin it, and no-one would bat an eyelid. However, the double bass sounds an octave lower than written, which theoretically would create all sorts of unwanted inversions. In practice you hear the lowest piano notes as the bass line, even though many of them are actually above the melody notes of the double bass. The same phenomenon occurs with tenors singing soprano lines down an octave. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Lex Eisenhardt Sent: 18 December 2011 19:51 To: R. Mattes Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument But this isn't the problem at all! There's nothing wrong with voice crossings per se, only if the voices involved form a fifth, which would change into a (frowned upon) forth. I have yet to find one example where this would happen with a theorbo ... Cheers, Ralf Mattes Crossings with the outer voices involved are often considered problematic. There are probably very few examples of a figured bass, rising above the other melodies. In this specific example of the Caccini song it is the tuning of the bass courses of the theorbo in A which invites the idea of playing some notes in a higher octave, above the tenor. It is strikingly different from what he has notated in his own printed score, which may represent what he has played himself. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
Thanks Stewart. It is not that I can't believe that accompanists ever played notes above the line of solo singers or solo instruments; but I rather doubt if Caccini would have written bass lines which he could not play as they are, on his own instrument. Therefore I tried to suggest that he might have accompanied some of his monodies with another instrument than the obvious theorbo in A. With alfabeto we don't care much about the rules of counterpoint, and the cittern parts you mention (which I have not seen) may be closer to the strummed style of the guitar (?) Lex Dear Lex, There is nothing wrong with the bass line of the theorbo crossing above the tenor here and there, because those high notes are still perceived as the bass line. I have on my lap a copy of _Yorke Solos for Double Bass and Piano_, ed. Rodney Slatford (London: Yorke Edition, 1984). If the solo part were played at the written pitch, e.g. by a cello, the piano part would underpin it, and no-one would bat an eyelid. However, the double bass sounds an octave lower than written, which theoretically would create all sorts of unwanted inversions. In practice you hear the lowest piano notes as the bass line, even though many of them are actually above the melody notes of the double bass. The same phenomenon occurs with tenors singing soprano lines down an octave. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument
It may be that he has simply notated the music in a non-specific way so that it is suitable for performance by different instruments. It is left to players to make the necessary adjustments depending on the instrument they chose for the accompaniment. If we are talking about the 1601 book, maybe I missed something, but it doesn't seem to specify any particular instrument and surely when publishing it he would want it to be suitable for a range of performers. It is the vocal part which is far more important. He may sometimes have accompanied himself on the theorbo and sometimes on the keyboard depending on the circumstances. You can't be too specific about these things and I don't think you should assume that they had such a narrow approach to the music. That only one size fits. That they never compromised. And so to bed. Monica - Original Message - From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: Vihuela List vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stewart McCoy lu...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2011 9:58 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Caccini's instrument Thanks Stewart. It is not that I can't believe that accompanists ever played notes above the line of solo singers or solo instruments; but I rather doubt if Caccini would have written bass lines which he could not play as they are, on his own instrument. Therefore I tried to suggest that he might have accompanied some of his monodies with another instrument than the obvious theorbo in A. With alfabeto we don't care much about the rules of counterpoint, and the cittern parts you mention (which I have not seen) may be closer to the strummed style of the guitar (?) Lex Dear Lex, There is nothing wrong with the bass line of the theorbo crossing above the tenor here and there, because those high notes are still perceived as the bass line. I have on my lap a copy of _Yorke Solos for Double Bass and Piano_, ed. Rodney Slatford (London: Yorke Edition, 1984). If the solo part were played at the written pitch, e.g. by a cello, the piano part would underpin it, and no-one would bat an eyelid. However, the double bass sounds an octave lower than written, which theoretically would create all sorts of unwanted inversions. In practice you hear the lowest piano notes as the bass line, even though many of them are actually above the melody notes of the double bass. The same phenomenon occurs with tenors singing soprano lines down an octave. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
