[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2

2018-02-10 Thread Martyn Hodgson 
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Saturday, 10 February 2018, 10:07
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
   - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Monica,
   Your earlier message of 31 Jan is, in fact, below - simply scroll down
   to find it..
   Rather than this Trumpesque bluster and obfuscation would you now
   please
   simply and, is it too much to hope, politely answer the direct question
   put to you.
   As carefully explained, this will provide you with the opportunity to
   properly
   clarify your precise position over the instruments required for the
   pieces in this
   MS and will then enable a constructive reply to be composed.
   Here's the relevant question again:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position
   is that the vast
   majority (about 98%) of  the some 124 works for plucked instruments in
   this MS
   are for a six course gytarra and that just three are for a mandora
   (according to
   you a twelve course instrument with  five fingered courses and
   seven free
   basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped basses" )'
   Is this still a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute
   family
   instrument ( - and a baroque lute to boot!) and such messages are
   therefore
   entirely relevant on that list.  If the mandora were a guitar I
   wouldn't.
 __

   From: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
   To: hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 17:39
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189)
   - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Martyn
   The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I
   sent to the Vihuela List  on the 31st January.
   I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT
   CAREFULLY.  It is the second down below your latest message.
   Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say
   about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking
   about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas.
   Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I
   received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't
   think that anyone on that list  interested in anything you have to
   say.  I don't want to receive three copies of every message you see fit
   to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist.
   As ever
   Monica
   ==
   Original Message
   From: [1]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: 09/02/2018 16:43
   To: "[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<[3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a
   fresh tack! 2
   From: Martyn Hodgson <[4]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: "[5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <[6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>;
   VihuelaList
 <[7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[8]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
 Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack!
   2
Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to
   enable me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now
   confirm precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required
   for the pieces in this MS.
   In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
 '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of the some 124 works for plucked
   instruments in this MS are for a six course gytarra and that just
   three
   are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven free basses -  you stated that  "The
   mandora has seven unstopped basses" )'
 Is this a correct statement of your position?
 regards
 Martyn
 PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a
   lute   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!

   =
 - Forwarded Message -
 From: Martyn Hodgson <[9]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 To: Monica Hall <[10]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
 <[11]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
 <[12]baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 S

[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2

2018-02-09 Thread mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu 
Dear Martyn

The message which you have attached below is NOT the message which I 
sent to the Vihuela List  on the 31st January.
I suggest you retrieve this from the Archives and ACTUALLY READ IT 
CAREFULLY.  It is the second down below your latest message.
Frankly I am not really interested in anything that you have to say 
about this as it is clear that you do not know what you are talking 
about. You are only interested in disseminating your own cranky ideas.

Re copying things to the Baroque Lute list - when I signed up I 
received a message saying that cross-posting was not allowed. I don't 
think that anyone on that list  interested in anything you have to 
say.  I don't want to receive three copies of every message you see fit 
to send. I may query this with Wayne if you persist.

As ever

Monica




Original Message
From: hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: 09/02/2018 16:43 
To: "vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu"<vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Subj: [VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a 
fresh tack! 2

From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
   Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 
2
   Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' 
list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to 
enable
   me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm
   precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for 
the
   pieces in this MS.  In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is 
that
   the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" )'
   Is this a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a 
lute
   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!
   
===
   ==
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   To: Monica Hall <mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>; VihuelaList
   <vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>; Baroque Lute List
   <baroque-l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by
   saying that you 'were going to leave it  for now' and I therefore 
took
   this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner,
I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts.
   However, I shall do so now.
   
---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of
   Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora
   stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's 
not
   a fiendish plot of any kind!  But on
with the motley..
   
---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases
 and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required:
   one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and 
source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder
   requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, 
as I
   was at pains to point out earlier,
any passably competent mandora player would easily be a

[VIHUELA] Re: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2

2018-02-09 Thread Martyn Hodgson 
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: "mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk" ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Friday, 9 February 2018, 14:26
   Subject: Further to Re: Moravsky MS (CZ. Brno D 189) - a fresh tack! 2
   Dear Monica.
   Thanks for your latest of 31 Jan (below) and forgive the delay in
   replying - it's only today risen to the top of my current 'to do' list!
   I note what you say and will respond in due course. However, to enable
   me to do this properly, it will be helpful if you would now confirm
   precisely what your position is on the instrument(s) required for the
   pieces in this MS.  In my last of 29 Jan (- also below) I wrote:
   '- as I understand it from what you have written, your position is that
   the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" )'
   Is this a correct statement of your position?
   regards
   Martyn
   PS I copy this to the 'Baroque Lute' list since the mandora is a lute
   instrument - and a baroque lute to boot!
   ===
   ==
   - Forwarded Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson 
   To: Monica Hall ; VihuelaList
   ; Baroque Lute List
   
   Sent: Monday, 29 January 2018, 17:01
   Subject: Moravsky MS (CZ Brno D189) - a fresh tack!
   Dear Monica,
   As you now know, I haven't yet replied to your latest open
   mailings since these had both ended by
   saying that you 'were going to leave it  for now' and I therefore took
   this as meaning I might soon
   expect something further.  Accordingly, not wishing to respond in a
   piecemeal and disjointed manner,
I deliberately delayed replying and awaited your further thoughts.
   However, I shall do so now.
   ---
   --
   Regarding copying things to other lists, just to be quite clear, I
   generally copy things to other of
   Wayne's lists if they're relevant there. Hence why gallichon/mandora
   stuff (but usually not guitar)
   can find its way onto the lute lists (or, indeed, elsewhere) - it's not
   a fiendish plot of any kind!  But on
with the motley..
   ---
   
   Our exchanges of 'textual analysis' have clearly failed to persuade
   each other of our respective cases
 and therefore, to make any progress, another tack is now required:
   one more forensic perhaps and
   closer related to contemporary organological, musicological and source
   evidence.  Firstly though, to summarise our respective positions:
 - as I understand it from what you have written, your position is
   that the vast majority (about 98%) of
the some 124 works for plucked instruments in this MS are for a six
   course gytarra and that just three
are for a mandora (according to you a twelve course instrument with
   five fingered courses and seven
free basses -  you stated that  "The mandora has seven unstopped
   basses" );
 - mine is that the 28 pieces notated with a sixth course are for
   mandora and that the remainder
   requiring just five courses are principally for gytarra (although, as I
   was at pains to point out earlier,
any passably competent mandora player would easily be able to add a
   low sixth where suitable in the
guitar pieces and similarly, in many cases, a guitarist would be able
   to play the errant low bass an
   octave up by employing the open third course). The couple of pieces
   which have the seven additional
free basses notated also have a left hand fingered bass notated in the
   usual register and, whilst we've
not discussed this so far, I believe these additional low course
   numberings are therefore simply later additions to these two pieces
   (note also that the scribe left off adding these low basses half way
through the piece numbered 45! ).
   ---
   ---
   1. DATE OF D-189
   You stated that the MS could have been written  "anytime in the
   eighteenth century"  - but with no
evidence for this assertion. I do, of course, understand why you
   favour such a  wide range of dates
   since it may help give some credence to employing a six course guitar
   (developed, in fact, only later
in the eighteenth century) for all the plucked works in this
   collection