[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
Dear Lex, I agree with Chris: thumb-out does not inhibite playing through both strings of a double course. Neither need (or should) the thumb and finger ends meet using thumb-out as you suppose: the thumb is slightly forward of the fingers. Probably the best historic representation of this from around the time (second half 17thC) is Charles Mouton's hand position (on a lute) in the well known painting and engraving. Martyn --- On Sat, 3/12/11, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl, vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Ed Durbrow edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Date: Saturday, 3 December, 2011, 15:28 I have to take issue with the idea that thumb-out will tend toward an upward stroke (if I understand what you mean by thumb-out). Indeed, I've always played thumb-out, coming to Baroque guitar from the modern guitar. One thing I have always trained my hand to do (thumb included) is to push down through the string. I find that I can do this on a double course as well with decent results (well, one needs other judges, doesn't one). I find that I have to modulate that a bit, and reduce the downward stroke. But the point is, with thumb-out I have to cultivate a tendency for an upward stroke, not try to overcome it. Anecdotal, but that's my experience... Thumb-out puts me in the opposite situation from what you describe. cud __ From: Lex Eisenhardt [1]eisenha...@planet.nl To: vl [2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ed Durbrow [3]edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 6:12 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar bridges Given that the bourdon in any case will be slightly higher the the treble string as it is thicker it is not difficult to give it prominence where necessary. A plain gut bourdon on the fifth is so thick that it is hard to miss! Ed Durbrow That may seem so, but making use of the thumb outside technique--which I suppose was always done by part of the population, also on the lute--the fingers and the thumb sometimes will come very close to each other. In that situation it will be more difficult to avoid the thumb to strike in a somewhat upward direction (to avoid hitting the next course), and mainly touch the high octave. To play a real bass, which needs a good control of how we balance the two strings of a course, we better make sure to catch the low octave string, and make it sound loud enough. For the same reason it may be easier to play campanelas with thumb out. At least if you would like to single out the high octave strings. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=edurb...@sea.plala.or.jp 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
Hi Martyn, I agree with Chris: thumb-out does not inhibite playing through both strings of a double course. It makes it more difficult to go deeper into the low octave string than the high octave. What I said is that if thumb and fingers are close (at adjacent courses) there is the difficulty of both going deep into the course. If the thumb should go deep, to play a good bass, the fingers can easily miss the second string of the course. That is something Chris also seemed to conclude. In this respect thumb-in is is different. Neither need (or should) the thumb and finger ends meet using thumb-out as you suppose: the thumb is slightly forward of the fingers. Probably the best historic representation of this from around the time (second half 17thC) is Charles Mouton's hand position (on a lute) in the well known painting and engraving. You mean the de Troy painting? What would Mouton have done when the thumb and fingers had to play adjacent courses? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
Ta Lex, I'm not sure I'm getting this business of the thumb plucking up - I've presumed you mean away from the belly - but have I got this wrong? If it is as I've been thinking you meant (ie plucking the string upwards - away from the belly) doesn't this lead to much slapping of strings onto the fingerboard/belly if plucked with any great vigour? Regarding what Mouton would do when plucking adjacent courses with thumb and fingers: I see no reason to suppose he'd not keep thumb out (as I do). rgds Martyn --- On Sun, 4/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges) To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Sunday, 4 December, 2011, 9:34 Hi Martyn, I agree with Chris: thumb-out does not inhibite playing through both strings of a double course. It makes it more difficult to go deeper into the low octave string than the high octave. What I said is that if thumb and fingers are close (at adjacent courses) there is the difficulty of both going deep into the course. If the thumb should go deep, to play a good bass, the fingers can easily miss the second string of the course. That is something Chris also seemed to conclude. In this respect thumb-in is is different. Neither need (or should) the thumb and finger ends meet using thumb-out as you suppose: the thumb is slightly forward of the fingers. Probably the best historic representation of this from around the time (second half 17thC) is Charles Mouton's hand position (on a lute) in the well known painting and engraving. You mean the de Troy painting? What would Mouton have done when the thumb and fingers had to play adjacent courses? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
I'm not sure I'm getting this business of the thumb plucking up - I've presumed you mean away from the belly - but have I got this wrong? If it is as I've been thinking you meant (ie plucking the string upwards - away from the belly) doesn't this lead to much slapping of strings onto the fingerboard/belly if plucked with any great vigour? Indeed in a slight angle away from the corpus (a guitar has a slender waist). I think I have seen many lutenists and guitarists doing that. This is probably one reason why most baroque guitarists have no clear bass when playing the (octave strung) fourth course. best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
Thanks again Lex. But if we pluck THROUGH the course, (ie parallel to the plane of the belly) one can achieve a much greater amplitude without the string slapping rattleing on the fingerboard/belly and thus will have a strong bass (as well as its octave) - as I think, the Old Ones would have generally expected. Martyn --- On Sun, 4/12/11, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges) To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Date: Sunday, 4 December, 2011, 9:58 I'm not sure I'm getting this business of the thumb plucking up - I've presumed you mean away from the belly - but have I got this wrong? If it is as I've been thinking you meant (ie plucking the string upwards - away from the belly) doesn't this lead to much slapping of strings onto the fingerboard/belly if plucked with any great vigour? Indeed in a slight angle away from the corpus (a guitar has a slender waist). I think I have seen many lutenists and guitarists doing that. This is probably one reason why most baroque guitarists have no clear bass when playing the (octave strung) fourth course. best, Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
But if we pluck THROUGH the course, (ie parallel to the plane of the belly) one can achieve a much greater amplitude without the string slapping rattleing on the fingerboard/belly and thus will have a strong bass (as well as its octave) - as I think, the Old Ones would have generally expected. There is not much disagreement about this. I only would add that striking parallel is perhaps not always the best solution. Probably not in campanelas and, reversely, also not when playing a bass on a baroque guitar. And I think that, on adjacent courses, striking completely parallel (all 4 strings involved) with both thumb and fingers is not really easy. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to say I had trouble fully playing adjacent double courses. I was talking about trouble when playing pipipi on the same course. If anything (for me, at least), to get an even balance of bordon and treble on a course for p and for i, I would want the surface height to be equal for both courses. In that way, I can plan to brush my fingers and thumb across an equally horizontal surface. With the surface of a bordon higher than the treble, I would have to roll my hand back to try and coax an upward stroke out of the thumb, and a downward stroke of the fingers (relatively speaking). That would be too much for my feeble brain, I'm afraid. It's easier for me to conceive of a plane that has targets to strike, and then adjust how I strike it (more horizontally when playing double courses). But conceptually, the adjustment for a given effect is the same for all fingers (and thumb). When running pipi on the same course, it's pure laziness and bad technique that keeps me from playing the full course. And I pointed out a problem with bordones for that technique, where the finger stroke is accented more than the thumb. Raising the bordon (lowering the treble) would only aggravate that for me. But again, my technique may not be appropriate... I really don't know. I'm just doing what produces a convincing sound *to me*, and hoping it's ate least acceptable to the rest of the world. __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 4:34 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges) Hi Martyn, I agree with Chris: thumb-out does not inhibite playing through both strings of a double course. It makes it more difficult to go deeper into the low octave string than the high octave. What I said is that if thumb and fingers are close (at adjacent courses) there is the difficulty of both going deep into the course. If the thumb should go deep, to play a good bass, the fingers can easily miss the second string of the course. That is something Chris also seemed to conclude. In this respect thumb-in is is different. Neither need (or should) the thumb and finger ends meet using thumb-out as you suppose: the thumb is slightly forward of the fingers. Probably the best historic representation of this from around the time (second half 17thC) is Charles Mouton's hand position (on a lute) in the well known painting and engraving. You mean the de Troy painting? What would Mouton have done when the thumb and fingers had to play adjacent courses? Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges)
Well, for the last statement -- plucking adjacent courses -- I would say that it depends on your goal with the body of the right hand. If the goal is as I've been taught, which is to keep the hand as inert as possible (which gives it its weight), then you have no choice but to strike downward with both p and i. It's hard to cultivate the motion, but it's similar to snapping your fingers. You have to really work on it I suppose, but the idea is to make it automatic. In order to pluck upward with p and i at the same I would need to pull up with my hand. For me, that spoils all preparation for the next notes. I really don't know what would have been done in the time, but unless I'm convinced otherwise, I would like to keep with an inert hand (as much as I'm able). As for campanelas, for me the issue goes away because I don't use bordones. The day will come, I suppose, and I'll fight with it then. __ From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl To: vl vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 5:21 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: hand plucking position (wasGuitar bridges) But if we pluck THROUGH the course, (ie parallel to the plane of the belly) one can achieve a much greater amplitude without the string slapping rattleing on the fingerboard/belly and thus will have a strong bass (as well as its octave) - as I think, the Old Ones would have generally expected. There is not much disagreement about this. I only would add that striking parallel is perhaps not always the best solution. Probably not in campanelas and, reversely, also not when playing a bass on a baroque guitar. And I think that, on adjacent courses, striking completely parallel (all 4 strings involved) with both thumb and fingers is not really easy. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
