Re: Where to get RAM?

[Alex Allee]

on 7/27/01 5:36 AM, Jeff Garrison at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
> 
> Ok, and I'll make it brief, too. ;^)
> 
> Be careful going after 16MB 30pin SIMMS. I've rooted out two deceptions
> on this matter.  4's are a little easier. This list and Ebay or
> Timco-computers.com,  Jeffrey Garbaciewski, (forgot the site addy. )

Assuming you mean Jeffrey Garbacz, it's  :)

-- 
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--
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Re: RAM-ing speed! Re: Where to get RAM?

[Gregg Eshelman]

Yeah, adding faster RAM to a computer with some
soldered to the board permanently won't affect
the speed. Its only systems with no permanently
installed RAM that there is any effect from using
faster RAM. It also depends on how close to the
end of the read/write window the slowest specified
RAM gets before its ready. If its always smack up
against the end of the window, faster RAM can
give a little speedup and may improve reliability
since the read and write operations have more time
to complete should something cause an unexpected
delay. Hmm, I popped "Memory Timing Diagram" into
dogpile.com and got...

http://users.ece.gatech.edu/~girishps/4173_sta1/sld008.htm

--- Bill Judson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hm, interesting...back when my LCII was a current
> Mac, a number of people
> asked support forums like this & assorted other Mac
> sages of the ages
> whether putting 80ns or faster SIMMs in place of the
> 100ns spec'd would make
> these slowpokes run faster. The answer, uniformly
> was no, because the memory
> controller was permanently set to 100ns. Your reply,
> tho', makes me wonder
> whether that was just true of Macs with some
> soldered-in RAM (as nearly all
> current models were in those days), as the soldered
> RAM had to hold back the
> potential of the faster RAM for the sake of coherent
> bus traffic?
> 
> I wonder if that doesn't apply to models (like, for
> instance, 2 that I own,
> the IIfx & the 7200) that only have SIMM slots?
> "They" say that when
> upgrading the processor on (say) the 601-604e PCI
> machines, it often works
> better if the RAM is all bumped up to 60ns. Would it
> be true of the all-slot
> IIs, do you think?
> 
> Gregg Eshelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > 
> > --- Amber Rhea <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >> I've often wondered what would happen if one
> tried
> [...]
> > 
> > If you take a IIci and install 70ns SIMMs in one
> > bank and 60ns in the other, it will all run at
> > 70ns. The same goes for PCs, except for the olden
> > days of memory cards on the ISA bus.
> > 
> [...]


=
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which is fruitful to an excess here, be so very barren in
the rest of the planets?" Bernard de Fontenelle, 1686
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
My ICQ# 16024947

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Re: RAM-ing speed! Re: Where to get RAM?

[Bill Judson]

Hm, interesting...back when my LCII was a current Mac, a number of people
asked support forums like this & assorted other Mac sages of the ages
whether putting 80ns or faster SIMMs in place of the 100ns spec'd would make
these slowpokes run faster. The answer, uniformly was no, because the memory
controller was permanently set to 100ns. Your reply, tho', makes me wonder
whether that was just true of Macs with some soldered-in RAM (as nearly all
current models were in those days), as the soldered RAM had to hold back the
potential of the faster RAM for the sake of coherent bus traffic?

I wonder if that doesn't apply to models (like, for instance, 2 that I own,
the IIfx & the 7200) that only have SIMM slots? "They" say that when
upgrading the processor on (say) the 601-604e PCI machines, it often works
better if the RAM is all bumped up to 60ns. Would it be true of the all-slot
IIs, do you think?

Gregg Eshelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 
> --- Amber Rhea <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I've often wondered what would happen if one tried
[...]
> 
> If you take a IIci and install 70ns SIMMs in one
> bank and 60ns in the other, it will all run at
> 70ns. The same goes for PCs, except for the olden
> days of memory cards on the ISA bus.
> 
[...]

-- 
Over,

Jutso

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Re: Where to get Ram

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- "R.A. Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I bought four 16 mg 30 pin simms from
> Macsolutions.com about two years ago
> and they are functioning perfectly in my Quadra 700.
>  They were inexpensive
> for the date, too.  I think I paid $17.95 a stick. 
> They got them to me one
> day earlier than promised as well. I have no
> affiliation with them, and that
> has been my only purchase from them.

I bought four 16meg ones off eBay a couple years
ago from a guy who had them in the musical instruments
category or somesuch. Was pitching them for use in
a synthesizer. He had 8 but I only got 4 because I
only had a IIsi at the time. Doh! After I got my
IIci I was wishing I'd bought them all for the cheap
price. :P (I even told the guy he'd get a better
price out of the others in the Macintosh category.)

=
"The earth swarms with inhabitants. Why then should nature,
which is fruitful to an excess here, be so very barren in
the rest of the planets?" Bernard de Fontenelle, 1686
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
My ICQ# 16024947

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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Jeff Garrison]

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Altenhofel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Vintage Macs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:05 PM
Subject: Where to get RAM?


>Where can I find 80ns 30-pin SIMMs? Either 4 or 16 MB. This is something
>that I thought I could find in the FAQ, but I didn't (this doesn't mean
it's
>not there, just that I didn't find it). I'm new to the list, so be gentle.
>Thanks.
>
>---
>Kevin
> -- Eschew Obfuscation --


Ok, and I'll make it brief, too. ;^)

Be careful going after 16MB 30pin SIMMS. I've rooted out two deceptions
on this matter.  4's are a little easier. This list and Ebay or
Timco-computers.com,  Jeffrey Garbaciewski, (forgot the site addy. )

Jeff


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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Robert Poland]

As a side note, I've found that RAM that is on the line as far as 
speed - May work, and pass tests when it is cold but will get worse 
as it warms up.

I had two 60ns SIMMs in a 8100 that did just that. Replaced them, 
under warranty, and all was well.

-- 
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RAM-ing speed! Re: Where to get RAM?

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- Amber Rhea <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've often wondered what would happen if one tried
> SLOWER SIMMs that those
> listed as the minimum requirement. Everymac.com has
> various Macs noted as
> requiring 80ns, 70ns, 60ns, et al. My curiosity
> hasn't been so burning that
> I've bought slower SIMMs for this purpose and tried
> them in a Mac, but it
> would be interesting to know why this SIMM speed
> requirement is important,
> and why it varies so from Mac to Mac, even among
> Macs made around the same time.

On the RAM bus, the memory controller sets the
timing of reads and writes. When the bus is set
for a read or write, it waits a certain amount
of time for the RAM to be ready to read or write.
If you use too slow of RAM it won't be ready to
be read or written before the time for the operation
to take place ends. Then you get a memory error and
bad stuff happens. To some extent older computers
can be sped up by using faster RAM than the slowest
specified. The reason is that a computer that
requires at least 80ns RAM will read or write
data the very instant the RAM is ready. Older systems
generally used a longer "window" of time for
RAM operations to take place. Popping 60ns RAM
into a system specced for 100ns will allow most
memory operations to take place right at the start
of the time window, thus giving a mild speedup.

10-15 years ago when I was using 8088/80286/80386
PCs it was quite easy to see the speed difference
when I upgraded a box to 60ns or 70ns RAM. The
RAM test part of bootup would fly by with a
BTTT! instead of me being able to hear
a distinct "tick" for each K. Of course, loading
up a 286 with 12megs of those individual 256Kx1
DIP chips was horrendously expensive and used up
three of the ISA expansion slots. What was funny
was I didn't have all the RAM the same speed and
the memory test sounded like it was shifting gears
as it went from the faster RAM to the slower chips.
(I configured the 60ns stuff as conventional and
XMS and the 70ns as hardware EMS so the 70ns wouldn't
slow down the faster RAM.)

If you take a IIci and install 70ns SIMMs in one
bank and 60ns in the other, it will all run at
70ns. The same goes for PCs, except for the olden
days of memory cards on the ISA bus.

As computers got faster, the slight speed difference
from using faster RAM became imperceptible to
the user, and only a benchmarking program could
tell the difference, which in normal operation
doesn't amount to a hill of beans. :) The memory
timing cycles are so tight now that even a couple
of nanoseconds too slow will cause trouble, which
is why it pays to buy name brand RAM like PNY,
Micron etc.

=
"The earth swarms with inhabitants. Why then should nature,
which is fruitful to an excess here, be so very barren in
the rest of the planets?" Bernard de Fontenelle, 1686
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
My ICQ# 16024947

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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- Kevin Altenhofel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Where can I find 80ns 30-pin SIMMs? Either 4 or 16
> MB. This is something
> that I thought I could find in the FAQ, but I didn't
> (this doesn't mean it's
> not there, just that I didn't find it). I'm new to
> the list, so be gentle.
> Thanks.

What Mac are you needing the RAM for? Faster ones
will work fine.

=
"The earth swarms with inhabitants. Why then should nature,
which is fruitful to an excess here, be so very barren in
the rest of the planets?" Bernard de Fontenelle, 1686
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
My ICQ# 16024947

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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Andrew W. Hill]

>on 7/26/01 9:19 PM, (Vintage Macs) at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>  Well you don't need 80ns SIMMs. You need 80ns or FASTER SIMMS. This means
>>  you can buy SIMMS from places such as MacConnection or MacMall (if you
>>  don't mind their prices) as long as they are faster than 80ns; that is
>>  70ns, 60ns or some such (if such thing exist).
>
>I've often wondered what would happen if one tried SLOWER SIMMs that those
>listed as the minimum requirement. Everymac.com has various Macs noted as
>requiring 80ns, 70ns, 60ns, et al. My curiosity hasn't been so burning that
>I've bought slower SIMMs for this purpose and tried them in a Mac, but it
>would be interesting to know why this SIMM speed requirement is important,
>and why it varies so from Mac to Mac, even among Macs made around the same
>time.

Tried it.  Doesn't work out too well.
SOmetimes it'll just crash, sometimes you'll get SadMac.

Essentially its the speed at which the RAM is accessed.  Putting 
120ns RAM in a IIci is like putting PC100 in a new G4.  FYI PC66 will 
take 83MHz usually, PC100 up to 112 or so.  Never overclocked PC133. 
RAM speeds are just like CPU speeds in that they can only go so fast. 
They get hot and have limits (beyond heat).

Peace

Aqua

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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Andrew W. Hill]

>Where can I find 80ns 30-pin SIMMs? Either 4 or 16 MB. This is something
>that I thought I could find in the FAQ, but I didn't (this doesn't mean it's
>not there, just that I didn't find it). I'm new to the list, so be gentle.
>Thanks.

Try joining the LEM-Swaplist.  Its a great place to find stuff

Peace
Aqua

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Re: Where to get RAM?

[the pickle]

At 22:30 -0400 on 26/07/01, Amber Rhea wrote:

>on 7/26/01 9:19 PM, (Vintage Macs) at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> Well you don't need 80ns SIMMs. You need 80ns or FASTER SIMMS. This means
>> you can buy SIMMS from places such as MacConnection or MacMall (if you
>> don't mind their prices) as long as they are faster than 80ns; that is
>> 70ns, 60ns or some such (if such thing exist).
>
>I've often wondered what would happen if one tried SLOWER SIMMs that those
>listed as the minimum requirement. Everymac.com has various Macs noted as
>requiring 80ns, 70ns, 60ns, et al. My curiosity hasn't been so burning that
>I've bought slower SIMMs for this purpose and tried them in a Mac, but it

In some, it will cause occasional instability.  In most, it will cause
outright failure of the machine, which will give the CoD or refuse to boot,
often mysteriously.

Tidbit: the RAM soldered onto a IIsi motherboard can often be used to
determine the maximum overclockable speed.  If it's 100ns RAM, don't go
over about 25MHz or so.  If it's 80ns, you can go to about 28MHz safely.
Some people have had success up to about 29MHz but the floppy controller
starts to crap out around that speed.

p
_
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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Terry Mathews]

In a nutshell, either the RAM will work faster than its rated speed, or you
will start to get random errors on your Mac. For comparison, try checking
around PC forums and see how people overclock their RAM. Today its no big
deal, but back in those Mac's era, RAM didn't really overclcok more than
10ns, unless you were lucky.


Peace out
Terry

> I've often wondered what would happen if one tried SLOWER SIMMs that those
> listed as the minimum requirement.


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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Amber Rhea]

on 7/26/01 9:19 PM, (Vintage Macs) at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Well you don't need 80ns SIMMs. You need 80ns or FASTER SIMMS. This means
> you can buy SIMMS from places such as MacConnection or MacMall (if you
> don't mind their prices) as long as they are faster than 80ns; that is
> 70ns, 60ns or some such (if such thing exist).

I've often wondered what would happen if one tried SLOWER SIMMs that those
listed as the minimum requirement. Everymac.com has various Macs noted as
requiring 80ns, 70ns, 60ns, et al. My curiosity hasn't been so burning that
I've bought slower SIMMs for this purpose and tried them in a Mac, but it
would be interesting to know why this SIMM speed requirement is important,
and why it varies so from Mac to Mac, even among Macs made around the same
time.

-- 
Amber Rhea   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees
and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or
not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding
as it should."
 - Desiderata, Marx Ehrmann


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Re: Where to get RAM?

[KADaggett]

My Reply follows quote. On 26/07/2001 15:04 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:  

>From:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Kevin Altenhofel)
>Sender:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-to:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Where can I find 80ns 30-pin SIMMs? Either 4 or 16 MB. This is something
>that I thought I could find in the FAQ, but I didn't (this doesn't mean it's
>not there, just that I didn't find it). I'm new to the list, so be gentle.
>Thanks.
>---
>Kevin
---
Well you don't need 80ns SIMMs. You need 80ns or FASTER SIMMS. This means 
you can buy SIMMS from places such as MacConnection or MacMall (if you 
don't mind their prices) as long as they are faster than 80ns; that is 
70ns, 60ns or some such (if such thing exist).

Ken Daggett



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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Robert Poland]

>Where can I find 80ns 30-pin SIMMs? Either 4 or 16 MB. This is something
>that I thought I could find in the FAQ, but I didn't (this doesn't mean it's
>not there, just that I didn't find it). I'm new to the list, so be gentle.
>Thanks.

I bought my last ones at http://www.memoryx.net/powermac8100.html
Here is their pricing today.

8mb 72pin Mac simm   $7.00
16mb 4K 72pin Mac simm  $13.00
32mb 72pin 4K Mac Memory$25.00

And no I don;t work there.

-- 
-
Bob Poland
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Check out my garage sale http://www.ibrb.org/

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Re: Where to get RAM?

[Desert Fox]

Try .

-- 
Paul/.
95 black 3000GT VR-4
98 VFR800F, TBR aluminum hi exit
formerly reasonable and prudent


on 7/26/01 16:04, Kevin Altenhofel at [EMAIL PROTECTED] scribbled:

> Where can I find 80ns 30-pin SIMMs? Either 4 or 16 MB. This is something
> that I thought I could find in the FAQ, but I didn't (this doesn't mean it's
> not there, just that I didn't find it). I'm new to the list, so be gentle.
> Thanks.
> 
> ---
> Kevin
> -- Eschew Obfuscation --
> ---
> 
> 


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