[volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
John Phillips wrote: I would think that a lot of the patents would be running out soon as if that would make any difference. I think that John Phillips is right. Here are some patents related to the HP3458A. It looks like all of these patents have expired. A new instrument based on these concepts and schematics can be marked, Protected by the following Patents. US4357600 US4951053 US5148171 US5689260 etc ... I do not own a HP3458A, but I admire the instrument and the people that made it. The best meter I own is a HP34401A. It is good enough for the measurements I usually make. Ivan Cousins A time-nut since before 1974, the year I started working at Tektronix. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
you could write your own front end using the IEEE 488 interface and make it what ever you want. excel can give you the graphic you are talking about and you have a lot more control over what you get than any canned fronted could do. On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Tom Knox act...@hotmail.com wrote: I think most of the top companies were founded by scientists and engineers and because of their roots in the scientific community they were very customer driven, but it seems recently most of the test and measurement companies have become stock-holder driven as the management with a background in science retire. In addition many of these large companies buy up the small start-ups from the Scientist and engineers that created them as an alternative to in house RD. Once purchased they are quickly transisioned to the stock-holder driven model. Sadly in some cases I think the philosophy is to buy all the competitors and control the market to the point that they don't need to provide the same level of products, support, and service we enjoyed in the past since there are few alternatives. In this paradigm shift I think Keysight is better then most. I keep hoping they design a new meter to replace the 3458A or at least redesign the digital portion with a more freindly user interface, per haps a menu driven color touch screen and the ability to stored and display data graphically. Who knows they may have something in the works. Thomas Knox From: alan.ambr...@anagram.net To: volt-nuts@febo.com Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 16:36:38 + Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign Hi, Fluke has ... replaced the vacuum display with an LCD. I'm starting to worry about the great US test gear manufacturers :) Alan ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- *John Phillips* ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to, redesign
On 5/15/2015 12:00 PM, volt-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: In this paradigm shift I think Keysight is better then most. In my experience Agilent/Keysight has been very good. Had a signal generator long out of warranty, develop a problem with a front panel encoder. When calling for a replacement part they asked about why I needed the part... To make a long story short I ended up sending the signal generator in for service work and new NIST calibration, all free of charge. For something 7 years out of warranty, I was very pleased. Been buying a lot of Agilent/Keysight since then. Not saying one should expect this sort of service, but in at least one case they offered it! Dan ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Overall, I agree that a voltmeter such as the 3458A may not be cost effective any more to redesign all functions from the ground up. Consider that Fluke has re-released the Datron 1281 as its 8508 voltmeter. A quick view of the specs shows that Fluke has made marginal improvements to the DC volt side, good improvements to the DC current and Resistance side, but largely left the AC volt and AC current performance alone. Never mind the 8508A 20A current range, which seems to me like a bolted on afterthought. Fluke has added functionality for PRT measurements, and replaced the vacuum display with an LCD. Does anyone want to check if Fluke kept the 68000 processor and its architecture ? regards, ben Original Message From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 4:55 PM To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com, John Phillips john.philli...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign In message CANEyv6aTuFHYa17nkx3F7zTWqerTiC1o=D=fcz8sxar3zgp...@mail.gmail.com , John Phillips writes: I would think that a lot of the patents would be running out soon as if that would make any difference. I wrote copyright, not patent. Thanks to Disney copyright never runs out as long as a lawyer cares. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Hi, Fluke has ... replaced the vacuum display with an LCD. I'm starting to worry about the great US test gear manufacturers :) Alan ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
I think most of the top companies were founded by scientists and engineers and because of their roots in the scientific community they were very customer driven, but it seems recently most of the test and measurement companies have become stock-holder driven as the management with a background in science retire. In addition many of these large companies buy up the small start-ups from the Scientist and engineers that created them as an alternative to in house RD. Once purchased they are quickly transisioned to the stock-holder driven model. Sadly in some cases I think the philosophy is to buy all the competitors and control the market to the point that they don't need to provide the same level of products, support, and service we enjoyed in the past since there are few alternatives. In this paradigm shift I think Keysight is better then most. I keep hoping they design a new meter to replace the 3458A or at least redesign the digital portion with a more freindly user interface, per haps a menu driven color touch screen and the ability to stored and display data graphically. Who knows they may have something in the works. Thomas Knox From: alan.ambr...@anagram.net To: volt-nuts@febo.com Date: Thu, 14 May 2015 16:36:38 + Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign Hi, Fluke has ... replaced the vacuum display with an LCD. I'm starting to worry about the great US test gear manufacturers :) Alan ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
On 13/05/2015 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: 1980's. In the HP3458A the cleverness is not just in the analogue stuff. There is no way you could do something like that without stepping over HP's software copyright. You can probably get away with a FOSS project, provided you do it in a way where people extract the necessary bits from their own meter (using GPIB), but there is no way you can (legally) do it as a commercial project. That said, there are *so* many interesting things you could do with that meter with improved software... My (half) joke was that someday Keysight will need to address the unobtenium 68000 chips (and others) by emulating themselves all the digital parts of the meter... Daniel ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
On 13/05/2015 15:10, Oz-in-DFW wrote: On 5/13/2015 1:02 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 6.2.5.6.2.20150513113523.072f2...@comcast.net, Marv @ Home writes: Aside, there are private fabrication houses that make short runs of obsolete chips [...] Ehh, dudes... a m68k compatible chip is not unobtanium. Besides, the HP3458A is written mostly in KR style C, using IEEE floating point so porting it to another chip is not a big deal. And now that you mention it, there are FPGA/ASIC 68K cores as well. And now we returned to an emulated version of the original core, as my joke predicted :D Daniel ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Yes, these folks do not market like the commercial side but there is a small industry supplying obsolete parts. They are not usually not focused to sell to the public. Sometimes, they just hunt around for NOS stored in some forgotten warehouse, then they test components to insure like new functionality. https://www.rocelec.com/obsolete-semiconductor-manufacturing/ http://www.xtremesemi.com/company_info.htm http://www.rfcafe.com/vendors/components/obsolete-components.htm As others have suggested, it likely will not be not cheap, so the cost to maintain old devices with obsolescent parts over the total cost of a redesign has to be a strong consideration. - Original Message - From: Daniel Mendes dmend...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2015 12:55:30 PM Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign From the site you linked: Our life cycle management program assures you of a dependable, quality source of obsolete IC's forever. Now it was my turn of having a good laugh.. thanks for that, I didn´t knew that this service existed. Daniel ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Sorry folks, sent too fast. Errors corrected. Yes, these folks do not market like the commercial side but there is a small industry supplying obsolete parts. They are not focused to sell to the public. Sometimes, they just hunt around for NOS stored in some forgotten warehouse, then they test components to insure like new functionality. https://www.rocelec.com/obsolete-semiconductor-manufacturing/ http://www.xtremesemi.com/company_info.htm http://www.rfcafe.com/vendors/components/obsolete-components.htm As others have suggested, it likely will not be cheap, so the cost to maintain old devices with obsolescent parts over the total cost of a redesign has to be a strong consideration. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Our life cycle management program assures you of a dependable, quality source of obsolete IC's forever. No mention that the price may go up exponentially each time you ask for a quote, and don't try to buy two dozens. They probably won't make a run for much less than several thousand pieces, and there will be steep lot charges in addition to a very high unit price. Been there, done that... Didier KO4BB On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Daniel Mendes dmend...@gmail.com wrote: From the site you linked: Our life cycle management program assures you of a dependable, quality source of obsolete IC's forever. Now it was my turn of having a good laugh.. thanks for that, I didn´t knew that this service existed. Daniel On 13/05/2015 13:37, Marv @ Home wrote: Aside, there are private fabrication houses that make short runs of obsolete chips in order to keep mission critical electronics running, such as in aerospace and military applications. I'm not sure what Keysight would actually do, but I would presume not only do they stockpile key parts, both active and passives, as well as full boards for board level swaps, but periodic re-checking their inventory for functional integrity can be a never ending task as components age beyond their expected operational life. If parts truly were to become obsolete even beyond private fabrication, their management should design replacements boards and field test them way in advance of parts becoming extinct, until they decided the product was not worth maintaining. http://www.lansdale.com/ ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Aside, there are private fabrication houses that make short runs of obsolete chips in order to keep mission critical electronics running, such as in aerospace and military applications. I'm not sure what Keysight would actually do, but I would presume not only do they stockpile key parts, both active and passives, as well as full boards for board level swaps, but periodic re-checking their inventory for functional integrity can be a never ending task as components age beyond their expected operational life. If parts truly were to become obsolete even beyond private fabrication, their management should design replacements boards and field test them way in advance of parts becoming extinct, until they decided the product was not worth maintaining. http://www.lansdale.com/ ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
From the site you linked: Our life cycle management program assures you of a dependable, quality source of obsolete IC's forever. Now it was my turn of having a good laugh.. thanks for that, I didn´t knew that this service existed. Daniel On 13/05/2015 13:37, Marv @ Home wrote: Aside, there are private fabrication houses that make short runs of obsolete chips in order to keep mission critical electronics running, such as in aerospace and military applications. I'm not sure what Keysight would actually do, but I would presume not only do they stockpile key parts, both active and passives, as well as full boards for board level swaps, but periodic re-checking their inventory for functional integrity can be a never ending task as components age beyond their expected operational life. If parts truly were to become obsolete even beyond private fabrication, their management should design replacements boards and field test them way in advance of parts becoming extinct, until they decided the product was not worth maintaining. http://www.lansdale.com/ ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
They will buy several year worth of the chip when it is making its last production run. On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 6:17 AM, Daniel Mendes dmend...@gmail.com wrote: On 13/05/2015 03:14, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: 1980's. In the HP3458A the cleverness is not just in the analogue stuff. There is no way you could do something like that without stepping over HP's software copyright. You can probably get away with a FOSS project, provided you do it in a way where people extract the necessary bits from their own meter (using GPIB), but there is no way you can (legally) do it as a commercial project. That said, there are *so* many interesting things you could do with that meter with improved software... My (half) joke was that someday Keysight will need to address the unobtenium 68000 chips (and others) by emulating themselves all the digital parts of the meter... Daniel ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- *John Phillips* ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
In message 6.2.5.6.2.20150513113523.072f2...@comcast.net, Marv @ Home writes: Aside, there are private fabrication houses that make short runs of obsolete chips [...] Ehh, dudes... a m68k compatible chip is not unobtanium. Besides, the HP3458A is written mostly in KR style C, using IEEE floating point so porting it to another chip is not a big deal. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
On 5/13/2015 1:02 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 6.2.5.6.2.20150513113523.072f2...@comcast.net, Marv @ Home writes: Aside, there are private fabrication houses that make short runs of obsolete chips [...] Ehh, dudes... a m68k compatible chip is not unobtanium. Besides, the HP3458A is written mostly in KR style C, using IEEE floating point so porting it to another chip is not a big deal. And now that you mention it, there are FPGA/ASIC 68K cores as well. -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
In message db3pr05mb171eddfb1237019d474778b95...@db3pr05mb171.eurprd05.prod.ou tlook.com, Alan Ambrose writes: Come on, we all know how this will end... a raspberry-pi like processor running a virtual machine emulating the original processor (running the same firmware) and taking care of everything digital, and the analog asics doing what they do best HP48 style. Daniel, that made me laugh :). Begs a question though - even if Agilent or whoever they are called today don't have the smart personnel or the market incentive to do a good job of bringing the whole thing up-to-date, they could add a better display, better connectivity, more stats, smaller packaging, more modern components etc and leave the clever analogue stuff alone. Sooner or later, someone is going to want to move the start of the art forward from the late 1980's. In the HP3458A the cleverness is not just in the analogue stuff. There is no way you could do something like that without stepping over HP's software copyright. You can probably get away with a FOSS project, provided you do it in a way where people extract the necessary bits from their own meter (using GPIB), but there is no way you can (legally) do it as a commercial project. That said, there are *so* many interesting things you could do with that meter with improved software... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
In message CANEyv6aTuFHYa17nkx3F7zTWqerTiC1o=D=fcz8sxar3zgp...@mail.gmail.com , John Phillips writes: I would think that a lot of the patents would be running out soon as if that would make any difference. I wrote copyright, not patent. Thanks to Disney copyright never runs out as long as a lawyer cares. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
I would think the code may be copyrighted. On Wed, May 13, 2015 at 12:39 AM, acb...@gmx.de wrote: can you elaborate what copyright you think of. no one would make an exact copy of a PCB anyway, given many parts are obsolete and no smds used, and circuitries are generally not protected. Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Mai 2015 um 09:25 Uhr Von: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk An: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com, John Phillips john.philli...@gmail.com Betreff: Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign In message CANEyv6aTuFHYa17nkx3F7zTWqerTiC1o=D= fcz8sxar3zgp...@mail.gmail.com , John Phillips writes: I would think that a lot of the patents would be running out soon as if that would make any difference. I wrote copyright, not patent. Thanks to Disney copyright never runs out as long as a lawyer cares. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- *John Phillips* ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Hi, Come on, we all know how this will end... a raspberry-pi like processor running a virtual machine emulating the original processor (running the same firmware) and taking care of everything digital, and the analog asics doing what they do best HP48 style. Daniel, that made me laugh :). Begs a question though - even if Agilent or whoever they are called today don't have the smart personnel or the market incentive to do a good job of bringing the whole thing up-to-date, they could add a better display, better connectivity, more stats, smaller packaging, more modern components etc and leave the clever analogue stuff alone. Sooner or later, someone is going to want to move the start of the art forward from the late 1980's. Alan ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
I talked about this with a friend who works for the semiconductor industry. He had a feeling that the new 3458A meters don't last as long as the old ones. He had compared two faulty Malaysia made meters with close serial numbers and found a component which had a 1980s date code in one meter and 1990s in another. He was a little worried about the combination of manufacturing in Malaysia and buying obsolete components probably from the local sources. When fake and cleaned components have found their way to trains, aeroplanes and even defence electronics, why would the 3458A be an exception. 2015-05-08 15.38 UTC+03.00, frank.stellm...@freenet.de frank.stellm...@freenet.de: Many components of the 3458A are already obsolete, or endangered by PTNs, not to speak about all these through-hole components. I've already seen pictures about a piggy-back solutions for several ICs, and maybe they have to use that already for the new production, especially the two fast comparators EL2010, U142 U181, used with the A/D. The 68HC000 is also obsolete in the DIL package, and the SMD package is 'not for new design' already. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Come on, we all know how this will end... a raspberry-pi like processor running a virtual machine emulating the original processor (running the same firmware) and taking care of everything digital, and the analog asics doing what they do best HP48 style. Daniel On 11/05/2015 06:11, Will wrote: I talked about this with a friend who works for the semiconductor industry. He had a feeling that the new 3458A meters don't last as long as the old ones. He had compared two faulty Malaysia made meters with close serial numbers and found a component which had a 1980s date code in one meter and 1990s in another. He was a little worried about the combination of manufacturing in Malaysia and buying obsolete components probably from the local sources. When fake and cleaned components have found their way to trains, aeroplanes and even defence electronics, why would the 3458A be an exception. 2015-05-08 15.38 UTC+03.00, frank.stellm...@freenet.de frank.stellm...@freenet.de: Many components of the 3458A are already obsolete, or endangered by PTNs, not to speak about all these through-hole components. I've already seen pictures about a piggy-back solutions for several ICs, and maybe they have to use that already for the new production, especially the two fast comparators EL2010, U142 U181, used with the A/D. The 68HC000 is also obsolete in the DIL package, and the SMD package is 'not for new design' already. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Hello, Your last statement actually could be a nice project in one of the well known blogs... I have thought about this as well. It should not be too complicated to do that. The core components the stability are defined through are not that many. ac current may be an issue though (I have seen surprising things using precision resistors for AC current measurements). Regarding ohms transfer stability, the way to go may be, since we cannot do an error budget analysis of the circuitry, not knowing all the internals with enough detail (although the CLIP is readily available), to do a statistical analysis for each specific instrument the owner wants to qualify, say at the full digit (so. e.g. 10k) in accordance with GUM, to come up with data similar to what the Solartron 7071/81 has. cheers adrian Gesendet: Freitag, 08. Mai 2015 um 14:38 Uhr Von: frank.stellm...@freenet.de An: Volt-Nuts volt-nuts@febo.com Betreff: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign Hello, Joe Geller once collected 3458A serial numbers, and concluded, that this instrument maybe sold to about 50k units in these 25 years. It's not clear, if it's still sold by high numbers, but the total turnover might have been around 400M$, or 16M$/yr. In the end, that should be enough to finance a redesign, or a model facelift. This is urgently necessary, even if Keysight would not see a totally new or increasing market for 8.5 digits DMMs, but only wants to still offer this instrument 'as-is'. Many components of the 3458A are already obsolete, or endangered by PTNs, not to speak about all these through-hole components. I've already seen pictures about a piggy-back solutions for several ICs, and maybe they have to use that already for the new production, especially the two fast comparators EL2010, U142 U181, used with the A/D. The 68HC000 is also obsolete in the DIL package, and the SMD package is 'not for new design' already. Therefore, a complete redesign, including the software architecture, is more reasonable. Keysight would need the budget for that, but they are meanwhile also lacking the brains, which have mostly left the company (Wayne C. Goeke, the inventor of the A/D, joined Keithley, and Ronald L. Swerlein, the God-father of the ACV processing, well he's retired, for some personal reasons, obviously). Then, another big problem would arise, that is the verification/validation of the traceability of the 2 source / autocalibration feature. It would be not so easy to again achieve the acceptance of the 'metrological community', if any of the crucial parts of this instrument would be touched. I assume, this direct acceptance in 1989 was only due to the close cooperation with the NBS then, when they validated the ~0.02ppm linearity by means of the new JJ array. I have read a lot about the history of the very similar FLUKE 5700/5720 artefact calibration. In contrast, it took FLUKE several years, before their instruments experienced the same reputation. Well, the 3458A was designed for metrological use in 2nd instance only, due to the 55°C ambient operating temperature, and these many compromises they had to make concerning stability.. especially the LTZ1000A reference could have been optimized greatly (8x) with 20°C lower ambient requirements, and a bit more cleverness. Regarding this aspect, please compare the stability specs to other real metrological instruments, like the FLUKE 732A/B, the 7001, and the 1281 / 8508A 8.5digits DMM. So, the 3458A was mainly intended for military conditions, but also for harsh industrial application, e.g. end of line testing at the manufacturing line, where laboratory conditions can not be maintained. I also think, that the mediocre / cheap (copy-and-paste) design of these new 6.5 .. 7.5 digits DMMs still leaves a big field of other applications for precise 8.5 digits DMMs, as it always has been.. . I used this instrument already in 1990, at university, for high SNR, low distortion digitizing @ 16bit/100kHz or 18bit/50kHz, down to -100dB / 0.001%, single shot. The 3458A may still be benchmark in this category, probably also compared to modern delta sigma A/Ds, but for sure compared to the recent, new 6.5 and 7.5 DMMs. For my experiments, I also had the necessity to design and to adjust several precision current sources, DCI 0.01%, ACI 0.05%. That's not yet a true 'metrological' application.. But if you study the specifications of these new DMMs, even the 7.5digits 344470A will still not manage that level of uncertainty, if you take the 90 days spec, or their T.C.s. Generally, their crucial parameters do not fit their resolution. All of them have an A/D (multislope IV), wich are linear to 1..3 ppm only. A 7.5 digit instrument would instead require 0.1ppm linearity, otherwise the resolution is useless. For that reason also, the featured autocal
[volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Hello, Joe Geller once collected 3458A serial numbers, and concluded, that this instrument maybe sold to about 50k units in these 25 years. It's not clear, if it's still sold by high numbers, but the total turnover might have been around 400M$, or 16M$/yr. In the end, that should be enough to finance a redesign, or a model facelift. This is urgently necessary, even if Keysight would not see a totally new or increasing market for 8.5 digits DMMs, but only wants to still offer this instrument 'as-is'. Many components of the 3458A are already obsolete, or endangered by PTNs, not to speak about all these through-hole components. I've already seen pictures about a piggy-back solutions for several ICs, and maybe they have to use that already for the new production, especially the two fast comparators EL2010, U142 U181, used with the A/D. The 68HC000 is also obsolete in the DIL package, and the SMD package is 'not for new design' already. Therefore, a complete redesign, including the software architecture, is more reasonable. Keysight would need the budget for that, but they are meanwhile also lacking the brains, which have mostly left the company (Wayne C. Goeke, the inventor of the A/D, joined Keithley, and Ronald L. Swerlein, the God-father of the ACV processing, well he's retired, for some personal reasons, obviously). Then, another big problem would arise, that is the verification/validation of the traceability of the 2 source / autocalibration feature. It would be not so easy to again achieve the acceptance of the 'metrological community', if any of the crucial parts of this instrument would be touched. I assume, this direct acceptance in 1989 was only due to the close cooperation with the NBS then, when they validated the ~0.02ppm linearity by means of the new JJ array. I have read a lot about the history of the very similar FLUKE 5700/5720 artefact calibration. In contrast, it took FLUKE several years, before their instruments experienced the same reputation. Well, the 3458A was designed for metrological use in 2nd instance only, due to the 55°C ambient operating temperature, and these many compromises they had to make concerning stability.. especially the LTZ1000A reference could have been optimized greatly (8x) with 20°C lower ambient requirements, and a bit more cleverness. Regarding this aspect, please compare the stability specs to other real metrological instruments, like the FLUKE 732A/B, the 7001, and the 1281 / 8508A 8.5digits DMM. So, the 3458A was mainly intended for military conditions, but also for harsh industrial application, e.g. end of line testing at the manufacturing line, where laboratory conditions can not be maintained. I also think, that the mediocre / cheap (copy-and-paste) design of these new 6.5 .. 7.5 digits DMMs still leaves a big field of other applications for precise 8.5 digits DMMs, as it always has been.. . I used this instrument already in 1990, at university, for high SNR, low distortion digitizing @ 16bit/100kHz or 18bit/50kHz, down to -100dB / 0.001%, single shot. The 3458A may still be benchmark in this category, probably also compared to modern delta sigma A/Ds, but for sure compared to the recent, new 6.5 and 7.5 DMMs. For my experiments, I also had the necessity to design and to adjust several precision current sources, DCI 0.01%, ACI 0.05%. That's not yet a true 'metrological' application.. But if you study the specifications of these new DMMs, even the 7.5digits 344470A will still not manage that level of uncertainty, if you take the 90 days spec, or their T.C.s. Generally, their crucial parameters do not fit their resolution. All of them have an A/D (multislope IV), wich are linear to 1..3 ppm only. A 7.5 digit instrument would instead require 0.1ppm linearity, otherwise the resolution is useless. For that reason also, the featured autocal function does not work like in the 3458A, not a quarter as good! Same goes for the mid and long term stability and the T.C.s of the references and the ranges.. these are 2 or even 3 orders of magnitude beyond the claimed resolution.. that simply does not match. The 3458A instead gives much better reliability, and comfortableness to the user, especially by it's unique autocal feature, which relevance can't be emphasized enough. Also, only the 0.02ppm linearity legitimates the 8.5digit resolution, and allows ultra precise ratio measurements. A revised version should have lower ambient temperature specification, if used in metrology, more stable Volt and Ohm references, and better resistor networks, like in the 1281/8508A. (It's a shame, that the 3458A does not even have Ohm transfer uncertainty specification, and only 12ppm uncertainty for 1KV DC.) Then it would be prepared also for the upcoming uncertainty improvements on the electrical units in 2018, by the planned new definition of the SI. The uncertainty will jump from about 0.2ppm down to
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
What I was talking about, is the ASIC, not the DMM itself. AND, in the context of the fact that [today] you would just not sell enough 8.5-digit meters to justify the development of a new ASIC. I imagine that ASIC took many spins through the fab to get it right, and *today* that would be in the millions. Combine that with the cost to re-design this meter [the team, the time, the resources, etc.], and you would end up with a meter that was so expensive that nobody would want to buy it. I also suspect that even more than the military, the semiconductor manufacturers will use many of the 3458A's [thousands of them for each manufacturer], and I can't imagine them investing in equipment like that unless HP/Agilent/Keysight would guarantee [in writing] long term support for their investment. The 3458A is not a DMM that you would use for casual bench use [for working on other equipment] unless what you are working on requires that kind of precision. For repair work, most people prefer a hand-held DMM or a 6.5-digit bench DMM if more precision is required. So, the user interface of the 3458A is not likely to get a new updated look for a long time [if ever], because the market will simply not support the development costs. Even if Keysight were to come out with a new 8.5-digit DMM that was just a 3458A analog board attached to new digital electronics and an upgraded touch display, it would not have any better specs over the 3458A, so many that already have a 3458A would not upgrade. In short, there is just no compelling business reason to spend a lot of money developing a new 8.5+ digit DMM, and I don't see that idea going anywhere. There may in fact BE an ongoing redevelopment effort within Keysight, but it is my opinion that the new design will never be released into production. The business executives in Keysight [who are pretty smart people], will want to see a return on investment, and there will be none of that, so why bother? I happen to own an older HP-branded 3458A, and I think it is the bee's knees, and would not upgrade [at probably US$12K+] if a new 8.5+ digit meter came out. How about others on this list? What say you? If Keysight were to release a new DMM with a new beautiful interface, but with the same analog electronics as are in the 3458A, and they priced it at [say] US$12K, would you sell your 3458A on fleaBay, and then buy one of these new meters, even though the specs are exactly the same as your old meter? ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
There is no point of change for change sake. What would I get that I do not have now? If it was faster and more stable (cut the temp coefficient and noise and have a 1 ppm / year drift rate) it may be enough for some to justify but not me. Maybe if they could put a 3458A in a 3457A box with the multiplexer setup the 3457A has there could be some interest but they would still have to give me more stability and accuracy and make it sample faster. In short make it more accurate and more channels. I just do not see any mass market for such a device. The other upgrade problem you have is a lot of these units are hard wired into tests that have been running the same software for years and all that would have to be certified. The test documents have 3458A listed as the meter to use and it takes a lot of work to get someone to sigh off on a different meter even if it is better. There are cases where old 4.5 digit meters live because it is more cost effective to replace the old meters with the same old model than to get approval for a new lower cost meter. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
In message cafownwcwaz3f931thbhx+e2otvt+hbpq3rxtd+gomm9uibs...@mail.gmail.com , Jan Fredriksson writes: Could you say a bit more about this? Did the 3458A not make economic sense for HP at the time? Is nobody buying 8.5s these days? It's an interesting historical confluence: 8.5's are the clippers of DVMs. 8.5 only makes sense two places: fundamental/high-end metrology and basic research. Everybody else are totally fine with 7.5 and very few actually need more than 6.5 (specifying the temperature of your aligator-clips gets old really fast.) The 3458A made it possible to validate the josephson junction as SI voltage reference -- which ironically made the 3458A surplus to metrology requirements: Now you can generate any voltage you want on demand. That leaves a theoretical market in basic research, but that's a very small market which will happily pay a phd-theses for a prototype, but unless its on CERN scale, production runs are never an option. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Hi Ben and all - As you probably know, Keysight is still selling new 3458As, Starting From US$ 9,586 Regards, John, K1AE -Original Message- From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of ben Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 8:47 AM To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign Hello, I note lots of Defence procedures used in their metrology labs still require a 3458A as a core item, even for more mundane measurements. Defence seemingly are not switching over to newer voltmeters, or writing out the need for a 3458A. While defence are still maintaining old platforms it makes sense to them in keeping the originally specified test equipment in the relevant procedure - so long as HP keeps supporting the 3458A. ben Original Message From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 4:58 PM To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com, Jan Fredriksson j...@41hz.com Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign In message cafownwcwaz3f931thbhx+e2otvt+hbpq3rxtd+gomm9uibs...@mail.gmail.com , Jan Fredriksson writes: Could you say a bit more about this? Did the 3458A not make economic sense for HP at the time? Is nobody buying 8.5s these days? It's an interesting historical confluence: 8.5's are the clippers of DVMs. 8.5 only makes sense two places: fundamental/high-end metrology and basic research. Everybody else are totally fine with 7.5 and very few actually need more than 6.5 (specifying the temperature of your aligator-clips gets old really fast.) The 3458A made it possible to validate the josephson junction as SI voltage reference -- which ironically made the 3458A surplus to metrology requirements: Now you can generate any voltage you want on demand. That leaves a theoretical market in basic research, but that's a very small market which will happily pay a phd-theses for a prototype, but unless its on CERN scale, production runs are never an option. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
In message 4092c05$6a20decb$7a77bc81$@com, ben writes: I note lots of Defence procedures used in their metrology labs still require a 3458A as a core item, even for more mundane measurements. One of the biggest advantages of the 3458A over any meter before or after, is how simple it is to calibrate. They like that. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
Hello, I note lots of Defence procedures used in their metrology labs still require a 3458A as a core item, even for more mundane measurements. Defence seemingly are not switching over to newer voltmeters, or writing out the need for a 3458A. While defence are still maintaining old platforms it makes sense to them in keeping the originally specified test equipment in the relevant procedure - so long as HP keeps supporting the 3458A. ben Original Message From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 4:58 PM To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement volt-nuts@febo.com, Jan Fredriksson j...@41hz.com Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign In message cafownwcwaz3f931thbhx+e2otvt+hbpq3rxtd+gomm9uibs...@mail.gmail.com , Jan Fredriksson writes: Could you say a bit more about this? Did the 3458A not make economic sense for HP at the time? Is nobody buying 8.5s these days? It's an interesting historical confluence: 8.5's are the clippers of DVMs. 8.5 only makes sense two places: fundamental/high-end metrology and basic research. Everybody else are totally fine with 7.5 and very few actually need more than 6.5 (specifying the temperature of your aligator-clips gets old really fast.) The 3458A made it possible to validate the josephson junction as SI voltage reference -- which ironically made the 3458A surplus to metrology requirements: Now you can generate any voltage you want on demand. That leaves a theoretical market in basic research, but that's a very small market which will happily pay a phd-theses for a prototype, but unless its on CERN scale, production runs are never an option. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [volt-nuts] *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign
As far as I know, the 3458A was bought by the thousands by defense and space organizations. I'd guess no-one else would support that kind of development. Well maybe the telecom sector if there was a need for such an instrument. No one else ever will. *WAY* too expensive for even Keysight to redesign these days. Just is not going to happen... Could you say a bit more about this? Did the 3458A not make economic sense for HP at the time? Is nobody buying 8.5s these days? The reason I ask is that I think we all have the general sense that as technology advances, getting to any particular design objective gets slowing easier as the years roll on. This would be an interesting data point to illustrate why that isn't always so. Possible to say more? Alan ___ volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts and follow the instructions there.
