Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[NeonJohn]

On 12/19/2016 08:49 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:

> What you have in schematics and layout does not matter that much,
> if you have the money to keep an Eagle license around. In my experience
> the only IP that matters are reviewed and known good schematic symbol
> and footprint libraries. Schematics and layouts of circuits that are
> more than a couple of years old are only worth as a reference for the
> new design. New devices come so quickly that a design done 5 years ago
> would look very different if done today. And often with better performance
> and cheaper too.

Depends entirely on the industry.  Consumer electronics, I agree fully.
Industrial and commercial products, not so much.

Our main product, the Roy induction heater is a perfect example of the
latter.  It uses a fairly large board with mixed logic and power
sections.  Over 400 components.  I haven't made a meaningful design
change in about 4 years.  Every 6 months we consider suggestions made by
customers and employees.  So far very few got through the review process.

I'm now doing the board over from scratch but only because my hand was
forced by Atmel EOLing my microprocessor.  It really p*sses me that they
EOL'd the part with no advance warning. There is tremendous IP value in
that board and the custom component library.

Yes, the new board will have more functionality, will protect the power
semis better and will move much of the low level hardware into software
but none of that was worth the effort it's going to take to port the
firmware functionality over to the new processor until I was forced to
do so.

Eagle's new AutoDesk-style of licensing forced the issue to KiCAD for me.

John


-- 
John DeArmond
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
http://www.tnduction.com<-- THE source for induction heaters
http://www.neon-john.com<-- email from here
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net
PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77
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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Attila Kinali]

On Tue, 13 Dec 2016 19:17:17 -0500
NeonJohn  wrote:

> > If you don't have any personal preference, then
> > KiCad is definitely the way to go. It has improved
> > dramatically since it got the CERN treatment and
> > doesn't cost a cent regardless of size and layers.
> 
> Indeed.  I am just about to pull the trigger on KiCAD company-wide.  I
> think it is ready for the kind of work we do (4 layer boards, some with
> high current/voltage traces).  The only thing holding me back IS our
> investment in IP.  Maybe with Eagle 7 using XML for data storage,
> someone will write an Eagle to KiCAD converter.

What you have in schematics and layout does not matter that much,
if you have the money to keep an Eagle license around. In my experience
the only IP that matters are reviewed and known good schematic symbol
and footprint libraries. Schematics and layouts of circuits that are
more than a couple of years old are only worth as a reference for the
new design. New devices come so quickly that a design done 5 years ago
would look very different if done today. And often with better performance
and cheaper too.


Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Charles Steinmetz]

Randy wrote:


KiCad looks very good and I downloaded it to try it out.


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Sprint-Layout from Abacom:



Back in January 2015, Sam Reaves posted a nice writeup of this package. 
 Based on his post, I tried it, loved it, and bought it (it's very 
reasonable).  I also have KiCAD, the free version of Eagle, and the 
DipTrace demo version.  I've gotten to where I can use all of them, but 
when it comes time to do a board, I almost always go straight to 
Sprint-Layout.  Certainly, anyone who balks at the steep learning curves 
of KiCAD, Eagle, and DipTrace will just love the intuitive operation of 
Sprint-Layout.


I've pasted part of Sam's original message below.

Best regards,

Charles




The excellent, not free but very inexpensive (49 Euros) PCB package from
Abacom called SprintLayout6.0 (link below). If you are outside of the EU
the cost is 19% less (minus their VAT).

You can download a demo that does everything but save your work for free.
And they take PayPal. There is also a free viewer that can view the native
files. Although you may never need it they have excellent support. Bugs
have been minimal and the product has been very stable for me. I have run
it on XP and Win7 32/64 with no issues. Licensing is simple and you can
install on more than one PC as long as you use it only on one PC at a time.

Here is a short list of exceptional features that this program has that is
(for me) a good bang for the buck (or euro!)

1. Ability to import 274X Gerber files to allow you to easily turn them
into an editable PCB file (I found this really handy to create PCB's from
Eagle and other PCB CAD package files.

2. Ability to import a BMP file from a scanned image and scale and float it
in the background so that you can trace over it to create editable artwork.
Really handy for those old designs or for working from artwork from
magazines or the back of the ARRL handbook.

3. Easy Ground plane/Power plane pour. Pads can be set as thermals to
connect to the plane with independent connection to either plane. Zone
pours and cutouts can also be done.

4. Support for four layer boards.

5. Easy to use footprint creation tool for SMT/Thoughhole parts

6. Easy to use part library generation. Many parts available.

7. The ability to rotate parts in very fine increments.

8. Photo view mode that shows you exactly how the finished PCB will look.

9. Isolation generator for creating milling plots for making PCB's on a CNC
mill. Worth the price for this feature alone. When used with Bernhard
Pahl's SL2M3 program which converts the HPGL milling plot files and the
drill/mill data to G-Code for running CNC programs like Mach-3. With some
manual editing of the G-Code text one can use the program with LinuxCNC.

10. Simple point to point semi-automatic router that works with manually
placed connections.

11. Moving the reference datum (X0 , Y0) point for all layers is really
easy and I have not found any other program that does this as easily.

12. Perhaps most important: The program is very easy to use and learn and I
have made dozens of boards using it in all of the modes.



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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Dr. David Kirkby (Kirkby Microwave Ltd)]

On 14 Dec 2016 14:14, "Dan Kemppainen"  wrote:
> If it's a one off board, with a handful of components anything should
work. You can always redraw it later in something else. If you have 500
components, differential signals, and controlled impedance stuff that's a
different story.

A handful of surface mount components can easily exceed 500!

But like you,  I find the idea of using an open source program much more
attractive.

Someone mentioned earlier about making PCBs on a milling machine. That
needs a different approach than to etching.  To reduce tool wear one should
leave as much copper on the board as possible,  removing only that which is
essential to keep.

Thinking of it logically,  leaving as much copper on the board as possible
will preserve the useful life of the etchant, but most people leave remove
as much copper as possible, except for RF boards.

Dave.
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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Joel Setton]

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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Dan Kemppainen]

On 12/14/2016 7:18 AM, volt-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote:

Our company has been committed to Eagle for about 5 years.  The problem
you face is that your investment in IP (schematics, board layouts,
component libraries, etc) vastly out-values the software.  With a
proprietary system, you're either locked in or face huge costs in
converting.

Indeed.  I am just about to pull the trigger on KiCAD company-wide.  I
think it is ready for the kind of work we do (4 layer boards, some with
high current/voltage traces).  The only thing holding me back IS our
investment in IP.  Maybe with Eagle 7 using XML for data storage,
someone will write an Eagle to KiCAD converter.

I strongly recommend learning KiCAD (a fairly daunting task) before you
get any significant amount of IP committed to a proprietary format.




John makes some good points. The cost of not only IP, but even the time 
to learn the software add up significantly. Storing data in proprietary 
formats can lead to trouble later. (Eagle's proprietary format is a bit 
less proprietary now that it's .xml!)


KiCAD vs. Eagle vs. PCB Artist, Pads, vs. (fill in the blank) really 
depends on what you need. If it's a one off board, with a handful of 
components anything should work. You can always redraw it later in 
something else. If you have 500 components, differential signals, and 
controlled impedance stuff that's a different story.


Let us know what you end up doing.

Dan

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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Herbert Poetzl]

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 04:04:39PM -0800, Randy Evans wrote:
> KiCad looks very good and I downloaded it to try it out.  

Make sure to get the 'latest' version, it really makes
a difference compared to older versions.

> However, does anyone have a good, low-cost PCB fab house 
> to recommend? 

I can recommend OSHpark as pooling service if you do not
need the boards urgently or have specific requirements
regarding layers or vias or whatnot.

> I am designing a voltage reference programmable fro 0 to 
> 10 volts with a LTZ1000 reference and settabiltiy of 
> 0.1ppm and I need a PCB fabbed.

I've done quite a number of PCBs via OSHpark, from small
breakout boards up to quite complicated FPG solutions 
used in a 4k cinema camera.

The essential points with OSHpark are (in a nutshell):

 - drill sizes are "optimized" i.e. they have certain
   tolerances and you will not always get what you expect..
 - you have to use one of the three different stackups 
   if you like them or not :)
 - there is no electrical test for the PCBs
 - there is no impedance control done by OSHpark
 - you always get multiples of three boards
 - the boards are purple with white silkscreen and
   ENIG finish on the pads.

Hope that helps,
Herbert

PS: if you have more detailed questions, do not hesitate
to ask me ...

> Thanks,
> Randy Evans AE6YG

> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Herbert Poetzl 
> wrote:

>> On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 04:39:36PM -0800, Randy Evans wrote:
>>> Does anyone have experience with PCBArtist?

>> Sorry, no PCBArtist experience here.

>>> It looks pretty good for 2-layer board up to 60
>>> in^2 for $33 but I have no experience with it.

>>> I was looking at Eagle PCB but it's pretty expensive
>>> for a 4-layer capability version.

>> A litte apples and oranges here :)

>> The Eagle Light version can be used for free for
>> non-profit purposes and works for up to 4x3.2inch
>> with two layers.

>> If you don't have any personal preference, then
>> KiCad is definitely the way to go. It has improved
>> dramatically since it got the CERN treatment and
>> doesn't cost a cent regardless of size and layers.

>> Best,
>> Herbert

>>> Thanks,

>>> Randy Evans AE6YG
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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[John Devereux]

Randy Evans  writes:

> KiCad looks very good and I downloaded it to try it out.  However, does
> anyone have a good, low-cost PCB fab house to recommend?  I am designing a
> voltage reference programmable fro 0 to 10 volts with a LTZ1000 reference
> and settabiltiy of 0.1ppm and I need a PCB fabbed.

Hi Randy

To compare prices you can have a look at 

http://pcbshopper.com/

I have used Elecrow and also dirtypcbs. Both were excellent. These days
you can get beautiful double sided, PTH boards with solder mask and silk
screen for practically nothing. Cutouts, slots, non-pth holes, choice of
solder mask colours available for free.

The going rate starts at $10 for 10pcs 50x50mm. Practically free
shipping if you can wait, otherwise ~$25 for DHL etc.

The low prices are achieved by pooling many peoples designs onto one
production panel. So there is usually one price if your board is less
than 50x50mm, then the next price if it is less than 100x100mm.

(I threw out my bubble tank after not using it for 10 years...)

John




>
> Thanks,
>
> Randy Evans AE6YG
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Herbert Poetzl 
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 04:39:36PM -0800, Randy Evans wrote:
>> > Does anyone have experience with PCBArtist?
>>
>> Sorry, no PCBArtist experience here.
>>
>> > It looks pretty good for 2-layer board up to 60
>> > in^2 for $33 but I have no experience with it.
>>
>> > I was looking at Eagle PCB but it's pretty expensive
>> > for a 4-layer capability version.
>>
>> A litte apples and oranges here :)
>>
>> The Eagle Light version can be used for free for
>> non-profit purposes and works for up to 4x3.2inch
>> with two layers.
>>
>> If you don't have any personal preference, then
>> KiCad is definitely the way to go. It has improved
>> dramatically since it got the CERN treatment and
>> doesn't cost a cent regardless of size and layers.
>>
>> Best,
>> Herbert
>>
>> > Thanks,
>>
>> > Randy Evans AE6YG
>> > ___
>> > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
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>>
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>

-- 

John Devereux
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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Steve Wiseman]

On 14 December 2016 at 00:04, Randy Evans  wrote:
> KiCad looks very good and I downloaded it to try it out.  However, does
> anyone have a good, low-cost PCB fab house to recommend?  I am designing a
> voltage reference programmable fro 0 to 10 volts with a LTZ1000 reference
> and settabiltiy of 0.1ppm and I need a PCB fabbed.

I'd be interested in playing with a little programmable VRef - are you
planning to open or sell yours?

I've used elecrow a lot, for 2 and 4 layer 6 yhou track & gap. Not the
absolute cheapest (dirtypcb for that), but good PCBs on time, and
still painlessly cheap.
http://www.elecrow.com/services/pcb-prototyping.html
http://dirtypcbs.com/store/pcbs



Steve
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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[David C. Partridge]

I've used iTead studio with success. very reasonable prices and good work.  
Whether I'd use them for 4 or more layers I'm not sure, but for 2 layer they 
seem fine.

Dave

-Original Message-
From: volt-nuts [mailto:volt-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Randy Evans
Sent: 14 December 2016 00:05
To: Discussion of precise voltage measurement
Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

KiCad looks very good and I downloaded it to try it out.  However, does anyone 
have a good, low-cost PCB fab house to recommend?  I am designing a voltage 
reference programmable fro 0 to 10 volts with a LTZ1000 reference and 
settabiltiy of 0.1ppm and I need a PCB fabbed.

Thanks,

Randy Evans AE6YG

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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Randy Evans]

KiCad looks very good and I downloaded it to try it out.  However, does
anyone have a good, low-cost PCB fab house to recommend?  I am designing a
voltage reference programmable fro 0 to 10 volts with a LTZ1000 reference
and settabiltiy of 0.1ppm and I need a PCB fabbed.

Thanks,

Randy Evans AE6YG

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 5:22 AM, Herbert Poetzl 
wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 04:39:36PM -0800, Randy Evans wrote:
> > Does anyone have experience with PCBArtist?
>
> Sorry, no PCBArtist experience here.
>
> > It looks pretty good for 2-layer board up to 60
> > in^2 for $33 but I have no experience with it.
>
> > I was looking at Eagle PCB but it's pretty expensive
> > for a 4-layer capability version.
>
> A litte apples and oranges here :)
>
> The Eagle Light version can be used for free for
> non-profit purposes and works for up to 4x3.2inch
> with two layers.
>
> If you don't have any personal preference, then
> KiCad is definitely the way to go. It has improved
> dramatically since it got the CERN treatment and
> doesn't cost a cent regardless of size and layers.
>
> Best,
> Herbert
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Randy Evans AE6YG
> > ___
> > volt-nuts mailing list -- volt-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/volt-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
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>
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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Herbert Poetzl]

On Mon, Dec 12, 2016 at 04:39:36PM -0800, Randy Evans wrote:
> Does anyone have experience with PCBArtist?  

Sorry, no PCBArtist experience here.

> It looks pretty good for 2-layer board up to 60 
> in^2 for $33 but I have no experience with it.  

> I was looking at Eagle PCB but it's pretty expensive 
> for a 4-layer capability version.

A litte apples and oranges here :)

The Eagle Light version can be used for free for
non-profit purposes and works for up to 4x3.2inch 
with two layers.

If you don't have any personal preference, then
KiCad is definitely the way to go. It has improved
dramatically since it got the CERN treatment and
doesn't cost a cent regardless of size and layers.

Best,
Herbert

> Thanks,

> Randy Evans AE6YG
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Re: [volt-nuts] PCB Artist

[Andreas Bergmann]

Hi Randy,
On 13.12.2016 01:39, Randy Evans wrote:
> Does anyone have experience with PCBArtist?  It looks pretty good for
> 2-layer board up to 60 in^2 for $33 but I have no experience with it.  I
> was looking at Eagle PCB but it's pretty expensive for a 4-layer 
capability

> version.

I have the Maker license from CadSoft (Eagle).
It can do 6 Layers and it costs 169.- U$ but it is limited to 160 * 100mm²
https://cadsoft.io/pricing/

KiCAD may be a nice alternative:
http://kicad-pcb.org/

With PCBArtist I do not have any experince.

HTH,

Andreas
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