Re: [Vo]:McKubre visitors who peer-reviewed his lab, then get (unethically) silent
2014/1/2 Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com Garwin and Lewis is it linked to that report http://newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/GarwinLewisReport/garwin.shtml what an irony that Lewis, who seems to be THE CAUSE of general LENR denial, admitted in silence that it worked.
[Vo]:Was Garwin Lying on CBS 60 Minutes..Cold Fusion- Hot Again??
Greetings Vortex-L Was Garwin lying on CBS 60 Minutes- Cold Fusion, Hot Again CBS was 2009 and his Pentagon Letter was 1993: http://www.scoop.it/t/lenr-revolution-in-process-cold-fusion Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex The Truth is Out There
Re: [Vo]:Was Garwin Lying on CBS 60 Minutes..Cold Fusion- Hot Again??
Garwin is in denial. He knows input power is a red herring, nonsense argument. His public statements are motivated by politics. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Ron Kita chiralex.k...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings Vortex-L Was Garwin lying on CBS 60 Minutes- Cold Fusion, Hot Again CBS was 2009 and his Pentagon Letter was 1993: http://www.scoop.it/t/lenr-revolution-in-process-cold-fusion Respectfully, Ron Kita, Chiralex The Truth is Out There
Re: [Vo]:McKubre visitors who peer-reviewed his lab, then get (unethically) silent
I just read the paper again and believe that the author is not confident that excess heat is being generated. He apparently has witnessed the small signal detected by the apparatus, but expresses caution that this result might contain measurement errors of an unknown type. This reminds me of the feeling you get when you do not believe in something but see evidence before you that it is real. Since, he also sees evidence against these systems being conducted at other labs, a large cloud obscures his view. My conclusion is that this paper does not represent an endorsement by these guys. It merely leaves the door open a tiny bit that the effect may be real. But, I get the impression that they do not completely accept the results and that it would take a much more extensive review to come to a positive conclusion. Dave -Original Message- From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com To: Vortex List vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 3:16 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:McKubre visitors who peer-reviewed his lab, then get (unethically) silent 2014/1/2 Foks0904 . foks0...@gmail.com Garwin and Lewis is it linked to that report http://newenergytimes.com/v2/reports/GarwinLewisReport/garwin.shtml what an irony that Lewis, who seems to be THE CAUSE of general LENR denial, admitted in silence that it worked.
[Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled
I have been toying with a new computer model of the ECAT that I constructed the other day. The concepts that are being presented are based upon a simple model of the ECAT that has many assumptions since Rossi has not released many of the detailed technical information required to construct a truly accurate one. This particular model run assumes that the internally generated heat power follows a forth order function in the region around the thermal run away temperature. It can be adjusted to include any polynomial or other function once that has been verified. The main idea at work is that the ECAT must use positive feedback in order to operate at a reasonable COP. Negative internal feedback or no reinforcing heat from the powder will not work to a useful degree. The model suggests that Rossi must carefully set the thermal resistance into which heat is delivered by the device. If the coolant flow rate is excessive, which would represent someone attempting to extract too much heat from the system, the positive feedback can be defeated and the temperature would collapse. This implies that there must be a tradeoff between the variables which is most likely where a lot of Rossi's time is being expended. I did notice that under the ideal conditions operation slightly below the run away core temperature can be theoretically controlled and the gain large. My model demonstrates this is possible, but the control system is subjected to a positive feedback behavior which it must overwhelm. Operation at these types of location are tricky since any error in temperature of either direction tends to compound and the device heads ever stronger in that direction. If the core experiences a slight increase in temperature it heads toward thermal run away and must be reversed by the control loop. On the other hand a tiny drop in core temperature leads to total cooling unless compensated. The control loop has to contend with environment changes such as input coolant temperature and flow rate, or for example changes to the activity of the powder with time. I am confident that there are many other factors which attempt to influence the instantaneous balance required at the chosen operation temperature and all of these require an excess of control range for proper allowance. The time constants associated with the device must also be contended with and of course these are not being revealed by Rossi at this time either. Any delays built into the heat generation mechanism itself further complicate the control system. For all of these reasons, a model such as the one I have constructed makes assumptions that will likely be found in error, but at least the trends should be revealed. One of the model runs that I conducted assumed that an input power set to a constant 1000 watts(modified by the loop) could control a total output power of 1 watts for a net COP of 10. Other drives can of course be used which yield higher or lower values of COP, but this value has a nice ring to it! The thermal run away trip point is within 5% of the absolute temperature of operation in this particular case. I have noticed that most any other polynomial relationship between core power generation and temperature work in a similar fashion to the forth order where the higher ordered functions tend to be more critical. This is to be expected. Dave
RE: [Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled
Dave, Did you consider a negative differential resistance scenario for the input? This would make for nonlinear operation but it is closer to what Rossi is suggesting. It implies a sweet spot in the parameters which should be easier to control since there would be both positive and negative feedback. From: David Roberson Subject: [Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled I have been toying with a new computer model of the ECAT that I constructed the other day. The concepts that are being presented are based upon a simple model of the ECAT that has many assumptions since Rossi has not released many of the detailed technical information required to construct a truly accurate one. This particular model run assumes that the internally generated heat power follows a forth order function in the region around the thermal run away temperature. It can be adjusted to include any polynomial or other function once that has been verified. The main idea at work is that the ECAT must use positive feedback in order to operate at a reasonable COP. Negative internal feedback or no reinforcing heat from the powder will not work to a useful degree. The model suggests that Rossi must carefully set the thermal resistance into which heat is delivered by the device. If the coolant flow rate is excessive, which would represent someone attempting to extract too much heat from the system, the positive feedback can be defeated and the temperature would collapse. This implies that there must be a tradeoff between the variables which is most likely where a lot of Rossi's time is being expended. I did notice that under the ideal conditions operation slightly below the run away core temperature can be theoretically controlled and the gain large. My model demonstrates this is possible, but the control system is subjected to a positive feedback behavior which it must overwhelm. Operation at these types of location are tricky since any error in temperature of either direction tends to compound and the device heads ever stronger in that direction. If the core experiences a slight increase in temperature it heads toward thermal run away and must be reversed by the control loop. On the other hand a tiny drop in core temperature leads to total cooling unless compensated. The control loop has to contend with environment changes such as input coolant temperature and flow rate, or for example changes to the activity of the powder with time. I am confident that there are many other factors which attempt to influence the instantaneous balance required at the chosen operation temperature and all of these require an excess of control range for proper allowance. The time constants associated with the device must also be contended with and of course these are not being revealed by Rossi at this time either. Any delays built into the heat generation mechanism itself further complicate the control system. For all of these reasons, a model such as the one I have constructed makes assumptions that will likely be found in error, but at least the trends should be revealed. One of the model runs that I conducted assumed that an input power set to a constant 1000 watts(modified by the loop) could control a total output power of 1 watts for a net COP of 10. Other drives can of course be used which yield higher or lower values of COP, but this value has a nice ring to it! The thermal run away trip point is within 5% of the absolute temperature of operation in this particular case. I have noticed that most any other polynomial relationship between core power generation and temperature work in a similar fashion to the forth order where the higher ordered functions tend to be more critical. This is to be expected. Dave
Re: [Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled
The model I constructed is fairly simple in form. In this particular case I used a forth order function of power internally generated versus core internal temperature. I also tried many other functions, but felt that the magnitude of the nonlinearity was within reason with the forth order function. The assumed internally generated power begins at 0 watts and then rapidly increases with temperature as would be expected with the forth order relationship. Could you offer a simple description of the behavior of the negative differential resistance function that you mention? My model also generates a negative resistance once a certain internal temperature is reached. The exact level at which this is reached depends also upon the thermal impendence that the core works into. I can adjust this factor fairly easily in the model and in real life I suspect that Rossi would likely reduce the coolant flow rate and hence raise its associated thermal resistance value at startup to reduce the power input required to enter into the positive resistance dominated region. Once this region is breeched, the positive feedback, as evidenced by the negative resistance calculation, takes over and brings the ECAT up to an active core temperature near the thermal runaway level. The control loop must rapidly begin to extract any excess power once this temperature is reached. A failure at that time will cause the ECAT to melt. It is evident from the model runs and common sense that the thermal runaway temperature can be modified on the fly by the settings of the coolant flow rate and input temperature. This was demonstrated in one of Rossi's earlier test runs where he upped the flow rate significantly to pull the early model into safe turn off. I suspect that even an intervention such as this has limitations unless applied soon enough. Rossi has numerous variables at his disposal that he can modify at startup, operation, and turn off. I hope that we can get more information from him before one of his final designs is thrown into our laps via production in volume. Dave -Original Message- From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 12:47 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled Dave, Did you consider anegative differential resistance scenario for the input? This would make fornonlinear operation but it is closer to what Rossi is suggesting. It implies a “sweetspot” in the parameters which should be easier to control since therewould be both positive and negative feedback. From:David Roberson Subject:[Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled I have been toying with a new computer model of the ECAT that Iconstructed the other day. The concepts that are being presented arebased upon a simple model of the ECAT that has many assumptions since Rossi hasnot released many of the detailed technical information required to construct atruly accurate one. This particular model run assumes that the internally generated heat powerfollows a forth order function in the region around the thermal run awaytemperature. It can be adjusted to include any polynomial or otherfunction once that has been verified. The main idea at work is that theECAT must use positive feedback in order to operate at a reasonable COP. Negative internal feedback or no reinforcing heat from the powder will not workto a useful degree. The model suggests that Rossi must carefully set the thermal resistance intowhich heat is delivered by the device. If the coolant flow rate isexcessive, which would represent someone attempting to extract too much heatfrom the system, the positive feedback can be defeated and the temperaturewould collapse. This implies that there must be a tradeoff between thevariables which is most likely where a lot of Rossi's time is being expended. I did notice that under the ideal conditions operation slightly below the runaway core temperature can be theoretically controlled and the gain large. My model demonstrates this is possible, but the control system is subjected toa positive feedback behavior which it must overwhelm. Operation at thesetypes of location are tricky since any error in temperature of either directiontends to compound and the device heads ever stronger in that direction. If the core experiences a slight increase in temperature it heads towardthermal run away and must be reversed by the control loop. On the otherhand a tiny drop in core temperature leads to total cooling unlesscompensated. The control loop has to contend with environment changessuch as input coolant temperature and flow rate, or for example changes to theactivity of the powder with time. I am confident that there are manyother factors which attempt to influence the instantaneous balance required atthe chosen operation temperature and all of these require an excess of controlrange for proper allowance. The
RE: [Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled
From: David Roberson Could you offer a simple description of the behavior of the negative differential resistance function that you mention? Looks like you are already doing something similar. Wiki has an entry for the electronic version. The image of the curve is an ascending double hump, so if your model accommodates that already, then that may be why it is so intuitive. If one is plotting P-in vs. P-out then there is good control functionality to the top of the first hump, where the negative feedback would start to show itself. https://www.google.com/search?q=negative+differential+resistanceclient=firefox-ahs=bBTrls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialtbm=ischtbo=usource=univsa=Xei=JKTFUo6jBcvxoASVpoCABwved=0CDwQsAQbiw=1146bih=675
[Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
See: http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html Too optimistic about many technologies, but not bad. Arthur Clarke did a better job in my opinion. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled
Sounds like one of Rossi's controllability issues may come from the temperature stability of the cooling fluid itself. Dave's explanation sounds as if the control loop is expecting a rather consistent cooling fluid inlet temperature... and that may be the case if running off the city water supply (at least no major differences in water temp for a running faucet), but if one gets a sudden drop of several degrees on inlet water temp, what will that do to the control loop??? -Mark Iverson On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Jones Beene wrote: From: David Roberson Could you offer a simple description of the behavior of the negative differential resistance function that you mention? Looks like you are already doing something similar. Wiki has an entry for the electronic version. The image of the curve is an ascending double hump, so if your model accommodates that already, then that may be why it is so intuitive. If one is plotting P-in vs. P-out then there is good control functionality to the top of the first hump, where the negative feedback would start to show itself. https://www.google.com/search?q=negative+differential+resistanceclient=firefox-ahs=bBTrls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialtbm=ischtbo=usource=univsa=Xei=JKTFUo6jBcvxoASVpoCABwved=0CDwQsAQbiw=1146bih=675
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
Yeah, he missed the part about 1/55 kids with autism, amphibians disappearing, starfish melting, birds dropping from the sky, trees disappearing, reactors melting down, reefs bleaching, Earth warming, Alzheimer's and some cancers increasing. Other than that it is one big f($$ worldwide party... :) On Thursday, January 2, 2014, Jed Rothwell wrote: See: http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html Too optimistic about many technologies, but not bad. Arthur Clarke did a better job in my opinion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
Good point Stewart. People like to hear about all the good things the future holds but its the bad things that are worth knowing so that they can be avoid. For example, people look forward to having their work done by robots but each robot puts several people out of work, who now cannot afford to buy a robot or anything else. In spite of this problem becoming obvious, the right wing fights the solution. What does that say about the future? Ed On Jan 2, 2014, at 11:48 AM, ChemE Stewart wrote: Yeah, he missed the part about 1/55 kids with autism, amphibians disappearing, starfish melting, birds dropping from the sky, trees disappearing, reactors melting down, reefs bleaching, Earth warming, Alzheimer's and some cancers increasing. Other than that it is one big f($$ worldwide party... :) On Thursday, January 2, 2014, Jed Rothwell wrote: See: http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html Too optimistic about many technologies, but not bad. Arthur Clarke did a better job in my opinion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
Here is a prediction he got way wrong, but you can't blame him. The improvements in optical fibers beginning around 1970 were astounding: Any number of simultaneous conversations between earth and moon can be handled by modulated laser beams, which are easy to manipulate in space. On earth, however, laser beams will have to be led through plastic pipes, to avoid material and atmospheric interference. Engineers will still be playing with that problem in 2014. RD into optical fibers continues. In that sense engineers are still playing around with the problem. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
To be fair, Ed, the left wing fights the solution too. The solution being the unconditional basic income. It was the last thing Martin Luther King, Jr. recommended as the proper solution to inequality -- just before he was assassinated. The Southern Poverty Law Center has never advocated it despite proclaiming itself the recipient of Dr. King's mantle subsequent to his assassination. Curious that they would fight a race-neutral cure for inequality that Dr. King himself recommended, thereby setting white working class against blacks due to affirmative action most directly impacting the white working class. No major Democratic party candidate has ever even proposed it. The closest anyone with any prominence in public policy has come to a serious proposal for it has been a libertarian scholar with -- of all places -- the Cato Institute: Charles Murray's In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skDgS5nEY6c On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Good point Stewart. People like to hear about all the good things the future holds but its the bad things that are worth knowing so that they can be avoid. For example, people look forward to having their work done by robots but each robot puts several people out of work, who now cannot afford to buy a robot or anything else. In spite of this problem becoming obvious, the right wing fights the solution. What does that say about the future? Ed On Jan 2, 2014, at 11:48 AM, ChemE Stewart wrote: Yeah, he missed the part about 1/55 kids with autism, amphibians disappearing, starfish melting, birds dropping from the sky, trees disappearing, reactors melting down, reefs bleaching, Earth warming, Alzheimer's and some cancers increasing. Other than that it is one big f($$ worldwide party... :) On Thursday, January 2, 2014, Jed Rothwell wrote: See: http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html Too optimistic about many technologies, but not bad. Arthur Clarke did a better job in my opinion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, he missed the part about 1/55 kids with autism, amphibians disappearing, starfish melting, birds dropping from the sky, trees disappearing, reactors melting down, reefs bleaching, Earth warming, Alzheimer's and some cancers increasing. . . . I think he did a pretty good job describing potential problems, especially the population explosion. He nailed the present population pretty closely. In his other work, Asimov often pointed out the dangers of pollution and overpopulation. I do not think there has been an actual increase in autism. More cases are being diagnosed. I think some are not real. Alzheimer's and cancer is increasing mainly because there is no cure for them and the population is aging. People have to die of something. If you reduce heart disease and people live longer cancer will increase. If cancer and Alzheimer's are eliminated, some other old-age disease will become more prevalent. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
Erratum: Murray proposed this as a scholar with the American Enterprise Institute, not the Cato Institute. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:14 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair, Ed, the left wing fights the solution too. The solution being the unconditional basic income. It was the last thing Martin Luther King, Jr. recommended as the proper solution to inequality -- just before he was assassinated. The Southern Poverty Law Center has never advocated it despite proclaiming itself the recipient of Dr. King's mantle subsequent to his assassination. Curious that they would fight a race-neutral cure for inequality that Dr. King himself recommended, thereby setting white working class against blacks due to affirmative action most directly impacting the white working class. No major Democratic party candidate has ever even proposed it. The closest anyone with any prominence in public policy has come to a serious proposal for it has been a libertarian scholar with -- of all places -- the Cato Institute: Charles Murray's In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare Statehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skDgS5nEY6c On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:01 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: Good point Stewart. People like to hear about all the good things the future holds but its the bad things that are worth knowing so that they can be avoid. For example, people look forward to having their work done by robots but each robot puts several people out of work, who now cannot afford to buy a robot or anything else. In spite of this problem becoming obvious, the right wing fights the solution. What does that say about the future? Ed On Jan 2, 2014, at 11:48 AM, ChemE Stewart wrote: Yeah, he missed the part about 1/55 kids with autism, amphibians disappearing, starfish melting, birds dropping from the sky, trees disappearing, reactors melting down, reefs bleaching, Earth warming, Alzheimer's and some cancers increasing. Other than that it is one big f($$ worldwide party... :) On Thursday, January 2, 2014, Jed Rothwell wrote: See: http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html Too optimistic about many technologies, but not bad. Arthur Clarke did a better job in my opinion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair, Ed, the left wing fights the solution too. The solution being the unconditional basic income.. . . That is a little unfair to the left wing. The idea of an unconditional basic income has been around for a while, but people only began taking it seriously a few years ago. The movement in Switzerland is the first serious effort to implement it. The left wing knows that advocating it would be a tremendous overreach at present. The U.S. is a conservative country. There is no way an unconditional basic income would pass. The left cannot even get single payer universal healthcare. I do not know any Democratic politicians who thought that was a realistic prospect. If many European countries pass an unconditional basic income, and it works well, then there may a serious movement in favor of it in the U.S. At present it is Utopian. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
The future is uncertain and the end is always near - Doors, Roadhouse Blues. 1970 On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:01 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote: Good point Stewart. People like to hear about all the good things the future holds but its the bad things that are worth knowing so that they can be avoid. For example, people look forward to having their work done by robots but each robot puts several people out of work, who now cannot afford to buy a robot or anything else. In spite of this problem becoming obvious, the right wing fights the solution. What does that say about the future? Ed On Jan 2, 2014, at 11:48 AM, ChemE Stewart wrote: Yeah, he missed the part about 1/55 kids with autism, amphibians disappearing, starfish melting, birds dropping from the sky, trees disappearing, reactors melting down, reefs bleaching, Earth warming, Alzheimer's and some cancers increasing. Other than that it is one big f($$ worldwide party... :) On Thursday, January 2, 2014, Jed Rothwell wrote: See: http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/03/23/lifetimes/asi-v-fair.html Too optimistic about many technologies, but not bad. Arthur Clarke did a better job in my opinion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
Why Are ASDs Increasing? [image: Prevalence of ASDs per 1,000 Children. 2002: 6.6, 2006: 9.0, 2008: 11.3]At CDC, we know that people want answers to what is causing this increase, and so do we. The reasons for the increase in the identified prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASDs) are not understood completely. Some of the increase is due to the way children are identified, diagnosed, and served in their local communities, although exactly how much is due to these factors is unknown. Also, it is likely that reported increases are explained partly by greater awareness by doctors, teachers, and parents. To understand more, CDC will keep guiding and conducting research into what is putting our children at risk. However, the data tell us one thing with certainty—more children are being identified as having ASDs than ever before and these children and their families need help. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 2:19 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, he missed the part about 1/55 kids with autism, amphibians disappearing, starfish melting, birds dropping from the sky, trees disappearing, reactors melting down, reefs bleaching, Earth warming, Alzheimer's and some cancers increasing. . . . I think he did a pretty good job describing potential problems, especially the population explosion. He nailed the present population pretty closely. In his other work, Asimov often pointed out the dangers of pollution and overpopulation. I do not think there has been an actual increase in autism. More cases are being diagnosed. I think some are not real. Alzheimer's and cancer is increasing mainly because there is no cure for them and the population is aging. People have to die of something. If you reduce heart disease and people live longer cancer will increase. If cancer and Alzheimer's are eliminated, some other old-age disease will become more prevalent. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com quotes the CDC: However, the data tell us one thing with certainty—more children are being identified as having ASDs than ever before and these children and their families need help. No one disputes this. However, some experts believe the illness is being over-diagnosed to some extent. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:McKubre visitors who peer-reviewed his lab, then get (unethically) silent
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I just read the paper again and believe that the author is not confident that excess heat is being generated. He should be, though. Because as he himself says: The uncertainty in excess power measurement is about 50 mW, but the excess power appears to be on the order of 500 mW or even 1 W peak. If he agrees that is true then there is no doubt the effect is real. He does not give any reason to doubt this. He gives disingenuous reasons to ignore this fact, starting with: We also had extensive discussions of data from one of these cells, which according to a summary chart has provided about 3% excess heat. - Jed
[Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
See: http://news.cnet.com/2300-13576_3-10017501-4.html They are replacing the blimps with Zeppelin NTs designed by Zeppelin Luftschifftechnik (ZLT) of Friedrichshafen, Germany. It is amazing that ZLT is still in business after all this time. There have not been commercial zeppelins since the Hindenburg as far as I know. The Hindenburg was a marvelous way to travel, by all accounts. Except for the explosion. It was spacious, luxurious, quiet, and so smooth the crew would leave a glass milk bottle upside-down in the foyer, and it would not topple over the whole trip. It was so quiet, one passenger did not realize it was airborne. She thought it had not left yet. Hydrogen was not a good choice. 22 civilian hydrogen airships exploded: http://www.airships.net/hydrogen-airship-accidents That is not counting the military zeppelins shot down during WWI, in bombing raids over England. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
Saying except for the explosion is rather Pythonesque. Hopefully, they have enough helium.
Re: [Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled
I suspect that a change of the temperature of the incoming water will cause a disturbance to the loop. Rossi must allow sufficient margin for his drive to account for this behavior since it will no doubt be encountered. It would be a good idea for him to control the coolant flow rate on the fly as a means to compensate for this type of change. Rossi now discusses having the internal temperature at around 1000 C while the coolant is heated up to 500 C. I have long waited for him to make such a statement since the earlier testing did not indicate this situation. Of course, he allowed radiation to cool the hot cats which now must be designed to work at a reasonable cooler output temperature. The thermal resistance of this heat flow path directly impacts the positive feedback loop and must be controlled for a reliable product. As I mentioned previously, he would be wise to keep the coolant at a zero flow rate condition at startup to enable the positive feedback to begin at a lower net temperature and input power. The coolant could be heated quickly under this condition at the lower input power level. The thermal masses of the system components and the coolant itself would retard the temperature rate of rise which would give him time for his control loop to initially stabilize. It is not clear whether or not the coolant should be rapidly allowed to resume flow at its design value. The shape of the flow transition might be used to his advantage. The mention of negative resistance is a subject that I am comfortable with. I have used this type of analysis for many years in the design of oscillator networks. In the ECAT case, it is required in order for the COP to be much greater than unity. Positive resistance appears in the form of heat transferring into the coolant. At a given temperature, the thermal resistance can be expressed in a differential form. The slope of the curve that defines core node temperature as a function of heat output power being absorbed by the load is one of the important factors in determining the net resistance of the system. This slope at a given temperature yields the positive load thermal resistance seen by the core. The internal power generation process of the core itself yields the other resistance term. That one is negative since heat power is being generated by the core in greater quantities as the temperature rises. The slope again is also important and represents the instantaneous negative resistance at a given core temperature. The interaction of the input heating power with the balance of the system is a bit complex but important. It determines the temperature at which the positive feedback takes control. It likewise allows control of the complete system as discussed in previous posts. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-Zeropoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 1:44 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Linear Operation of ECAT Modeled Sounds like one of Rossi's controllability issues may come from the temperature stability of the cooling fluid itself. Dave's explanation sounds as if the control loop is expecting a rather consistent cooling fluid inlet temperature... and that may be the case if running off the city water supply (at least no major differences in water temp for a running faucet), but if one gets a sudden drop of several degrees on inlet water temp, what will that do to the control loop??? -Mark Iverson On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 10:33 AM, Jones Beene wrote: From: David Roberson Could you offer a simple description of the behavior of the negative differential resistance function that you mention? Looks like you are already doing something similar. Wiki has an entry for the electronic version. The image of the curve is an ascending double hump, so if your model accommodates that already, then that may be why it is so intuitive. If one is plotting P-in vs. P-out then there is good control functionality to the top of the first hump, where the negative feedback would start to show itself. https://www.google.com/search?q=negative+differential+resistanceclient=firefox-ahs=bBTrls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialtbm=ischtbo=usource=univsa=Xei=JKTFUo6jBcvxoASVpoCABwved=0CDwQsAQbiw=1146bih=675
Re: [Vo]:McKubre visitors who peer-reviewed his lab, then get (unethically) silent
He should have confidence in what he has seen, but I can think of other things that one might see on fleeting occasions but still have reservations. I suppose UFO's, ghosts, and etc. fall into that category. It just appears that many people maintain some level of doubt regardless of the evidence before them. They always suspect that a trick of some sort is being conducted. Consider the major problem we recently had convincing the skeptics that the latest Rossi 3rd party test was legitimate. I seriously doubt that any of them changed their minds even though they could prove nothing of substance. There is always room for doubt when a subject defies your belief system. I think that his behavior is consistent with many peoples reactions. I am not confident that he would have accepted any amount of excess power as beyond trickery. It would have helped had the excess been 100%, but that might still have not been sufficient for him. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 3:13 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:McKubre visitors who peer-reviewed his lab, then get (unethically) silent David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I just read the paper again and believe that the author is not confident that excess heat is being generated. He should be, though. Because as he himself says: The uncertainty in excess power measurement is about 50 mW, but the excess power appears to be on the order of 500 mW or even 1 W peak. If he agrees that is true then there is no doubt the effect is real. He does not give any reason to doubt this. He gives disingenuous reasons to ignore this fact, starting with: We also had extensive discussions of data from one of these cells, which according to a summary chart has provided about 3% excess heat. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
Hey, if they really want to make a light ship, then figure a way to enclose a vacuum. With material science advancing at the rate that it is that might actually become feasible one day. Another idea would be to come up with a way to thermally insulate the container to a super degree and then heat the gas inside to a high temperature to supply the pressure needed to keep the container from crushing. :-) Dave -Original Message- From: Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 4:56 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins Saying except for the explosion is rather Pythonesque. Hopefully, they have enough helium.
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
They are building a giant drone Zepplin here in Johnstown. It will be tethered and fly at 20,000 feet. The other parts will be built in Texas. The technology is classified. What next? Frank -Original Message- From: Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 4:56 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins Saying except for the explosion is rather Pythonesque. Hopefully, they have enough helium.
Fwd: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
Maybe it will hold a death ray. Such a thing was predicted 75 years ago. -Original Message- From: fznidarsic fznidar...@aol.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins They are building a giant drone Zepplin here in Johnstown. It will be tethered and fly at 20,000 feet. The other parts will be built in Texas. The technology is classified. What next? Frank -Original Message- From: Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 4:56 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins Saying except for the explosion is rather Pythonesque. Hopefully, they have enough helium.
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
When a prominent libertarian scholar with the premiere conservative public policy think tank puts his credibility on the line for it and the Democrats -- none of them -- do, I'm sorry, Jed: There is something seriously amiss with the Democrats. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:24 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair, Ed, the left wing fights the solution too. The solution being the unconditional basic income.. . . That is a little unfair to the left wing. The idea of an unconditional basic income has been around for a while, but people only began taking it seriously a few years ago. The movement in Switzerland is the first serious effort to implement it. The left wing knows that advocating it would be a tremendous overreach at present. The U.S. is a conservative country. There is no way an unconditional basic income would pass. The left cannot even get single payer universal healthcare. I do not know any Democratic politicians who thought that was a realistic prospect. If many European countries pass an unconditional basic income, and it works well, then there may a serious movement in favor of it in the U.S. At present it is Utopian. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
With ECAT's just plain old hot air balloons have infinite endurance. From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2014 3:44 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins Hey, if they really want to make a light ship, then figure a way to enclose a vacuum. With material science advancing at the rate that it is that might actually become feasible one day. Another idea would be to come up with a way to thermally insulate the container to a super degree and then heat the gas inside to a high temperature to supply the pressure needed to keep the container from crushing. :-) Dave -Original Message- From: Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 4:56 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins Saying except for the explosion is rather Pythonesque. Hopefully, they have enough helium. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
fznidar...@aol.com wrote: They are building a giant drone Zepplin here in Johnstown. A zeppelin or a blimp? A zeppelin has internal structure. It will be tethered and fly at 20,000 feet. That is quite a long tether! I wonder what it is made of. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
Greetings, and a great 2014 to all. I am guessing that what was meant was that the Zeppelin would be tethered while stationary, and could cruise at 20,000 feet if so desired. Cheers, Lawry On Jan 2, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: fznidar...@aol.com wrote: They are building a giant drone Zepplin here in Johnstown. A zeppelin or a blimp? A zeppelin has internal structure. It will be tethered and fly at 20,000 feet. That is quite a long tether! I wonder what it is made of. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
Chris Zell chrisz...@wetmtv.com wrote: Saying except for the explosion is rather Pythonesque. Hopefully, they have enough helium. I am sure they will. They don't waste it. They only need to replace that which leaks out. It tells you something about people in the 1930s that they were willing to fly in these things. The Hindenburg cost more than a first-class ocean liner. It was only a little faster; 3 days versus 5. You could make the trip in perfect safety and the same level of luxury on a ship, yet the Hindenburg was booked full on every trip, I believe. You would think that after the R101 explosion in 1930 no one would want to fly in one. People were more cavalier about danger even in the 1950s and 60s. Everyone knew that cigarettes cause cancer even before the 1964 Surgeon General's report, yet people smoked. There was great resistance to seat belts when they were first introduced. I have never understood why. Years ago I read a document published in the 1950s (I think it was) saying something like: 'The best way to reduce casualties and injuries in an automobile collision would be to use belts to hold the passengers in their seats, but obviously this method is out of the question. . . . - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
Hydrogen was imposed upon the German operators as helium was embargoed against Germany for political reasons. Cheers, Lawry On Jan 2, 2014, at 2:33 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: See: http://news.cnet.com/2300-13576_3-10017501-4.html They are replacing the blimps with Zeppelin NTs designed by Zeppelin Luftschifftechnik (ZLT) of Friedrichshafen, Germany. It is amazing that ZLT is still in business after all this time. There have not been commercial zeppelins since the Hindenburg as far as I know. The Hindenburg was a marvelous way to travel, by all accounts. Except for the explosion. It was spacious, luxurious, quiet, and so smooth the crew would leave a glass milk bottle upside-down in the foyer, and it would not topple over the whole trip. It was so quiet, one passenger did not realize it was airborne. She thought it had not left yet. Hydrogen was not a good choice. 22 civilian hydrogen airships exploded: http://www.airships.net/hydrogen-airship-accidents That is not counting the military zeppelins shot down during WWI, in bombing raids over England. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
The notion of a guaranteed basic income has serious pros and cons: what one thinks of the possibility seems to reelect ones basic attitudes toward human motivation and work, collective responsibility, social cohesion, leisure-time use and productivity, etc. The idea is not a slam-dunk. I would guess that scalable social innovations and experiments should take place before any large polity -- in which people are mostly starters to each other -- tries it. Of course, if the amount guaranteed is paltry the idea and experiment become moot. Before the real dynamics of a guaranteed basic income (sufficient to live on) can be understood, the guarantee has to be sufficient and the experiment followed for several years (perhaps even for at least one generation) before the idea can be really assessed. Cheers, Lawry On Jan 2, 2014, at 4:00 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: When a prominent libertarian scholar with the premiere conservative public policy think tank puts his credibility on the line for it and the Democrats -- none of them -- do, I'm sorry, Jed: There is something seriously amiss with the Democrats. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:24 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair, Ed, the left wing fights the solution too. The solution being the unconditional basic income.. . . That is a little unfair to the left wing. The idea of an unconditional basic income has been around for a while, but people only began taking it seriously a few years ago. The movement in Switzerland is the first serious effort to implement it. The left wing knows that advocating it would be a tremendous overreach at present. The U.S. is a conservative country. There is no way an unconditional basic income would pass. The left cannot even get single payer universal healthcare. I do not know any Democratic politicians who thought that was a realistic prospect. If many European countries pass an unconditional basic income, and it works well, then there may a serious movement in favor of it in the U.S. At present it is Utopian. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
If it weren't for the fact that the Federal government is so dead-set against any kind of decentralization of power and revenue, this and many other ideas would have been tested long ago in the laboratory of the States. The hubris of arrogating, to the Federal level, social policy is inhumane and unenlightened. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:52 PM, de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.comwrote: The notion of a guaranteed basic income has serious pros and cons: what one thinks of the possibility seems to reelect ones basic attitudes toward human motivation and work, collective responsibility, social cohesion, leisure-time use and productivity, etc. The idea is not a slam-dunk. I would guess that scalable social innovations and experiments should take place before any large polity -- in which people are mostly starters to each other -- tries it. Of course, if the amount guaranteed is paltry the idea and experiment become moot. Before the real dynamics of a guaranteed basic income (sufficient to live on) can be understood, the guarantee has to be sufficient and the experiment followed for several years (perhaps even for at least one generation) before the idea can be really assessed. Cheers, Lawry On Jan 2, 2014, at 4:00 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: When a prominent libertarian scholar with the premiere conservative public policy think tank puts his credibility on the line for it and the Democrats -- none of them -- do, I'm sorry, Jed: There is something seriously amiss with the Democrats. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 1:24 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair, Ed, the left wing fights the solution too. The solution being the unconditional basic income.. . . That is a little unfair to the left wing. The idea of an unconditional basic income has been around for a while, but people only began taking it seriously a few years ago. The movement in Switzerland is the first serious effort to implement it. The left wing knows that advocating it would be a tremendous overreach at present. The U.S. is a conservative country. There is no way an unconditional basic income would pass. The left cannot even get single payer universal healthcare. I do not know any Democratic politicians who thought that was a realistic prospect. If many European countries pass an unconditional basic income, and it works well, then there may a serious movement in favor of it in the U.S. At present it is Utopian. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
No parachute, no potty, no problem: http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/02/travel/goodyear-blimp-main/index.html
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
de Bivort Lawrence ldebiv...@gmail.com wrote: Hydrogen was imposed upon the German operators as helium was embargoed against Germany for political reasons. True. But they went ahead and used it, and people flew with it. Hydrogen was not imposed on the R101, or the Graf Zeppelin. They were designed for it. The R101 barely flew even with hydrogen. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: If it weren't for the fact that the Federal government is so dead-set against any kind of decentralization of power and revenue, this and many other ideas would have been tested long ago in the laboratory of the States. Do you mean the way marijuana is being sold in Colorado as of yesterday? Or the way a single payer health insurance was established in Vermont in 2011? I am pretty sure that if a state wanted to established an unconditional basic income, Uncle Sam would have no objection. Interesting questions has been raised regarding Colorado. They now have a state official in charge of regulating the sales and safety of marijuana. Question: Does this official need to pass a drug test? And if so, which way? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.netwrote: With ECAT's just plain old hot air balloons have infinite endurance. a prediction for 2064. harry
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
No when I say revenue I mean it. If the Feds take the lion's share of the revenue it hog-ties the States in the most fundamental aspects of political economy experiments. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: If it weren't for the fact that the Federal government is so dead-set against any kind of decentralization of power and revenue, this and many other ideas would have been tested long ago in the laboratory of the States. Do you mean the way marijuana is being sold in Colorado as of yesterday? Or the way a single payer health insurance was established in Vermont in 2011? I am pretty sure that if a state wanted to established an unconditional basic income, Uncle Sam would have no objection. Interesting questions has been raised regarding Colorado. They now have a state official in charge of regulating the sales and safety of marijuana. Question: Does this official need to pass a drug test? And if so, which way? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 9:31 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 6:12 PM, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.netwrote: With ECAT's just plain old hot air balloons have infinite endurance. a prediction for 2064. harry balloon cities harry
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
I don't know Jed. The details are unknown to me. Why bother building such a thing? As the found out in WWI they are extremely vulnerable. Satellites are better and more secure. That is quite a long tether! I wonder what it is made of. That's good question also. Frank -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Jan 2, 2014 7:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins fznidar...@aol.com wrote: They are building a giant drone Zepplin here in Johnstown. A zeppelin or a blimp? A zeppelin has internal structure. It will be tethered and fly at 20,000 feet. That is quite a long tether! I wonder what it is made of. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC? Goodyear blimps to be replaced with zeppelins
On Thursday, January 2, 2014 1:34 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: It is amazing that ZLT is still in business after all this time. It's not amazing - they are different companies. The original companies that constructed and operated the Hindenburg (Luftschiffbau Zeppelin, DELAG and DZR) were dissolved at the end of World War II. They built weapons for the Nazi regime, and most of their facilities were destroyed. There have not been commercial zeppelins since the Hindenburg as far as I know. The new company mentioned in the article (Zeppelin Luftschifftechnik GmbH) has been making commercial Zeppelins since 1993. Their subsidiary Deutsche Zeppelin-Reederei GmbH has been operating tours and charter flights since 2001. The new DZR bears no relation to the original DZR that operated during WWII. AF
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote: For example, people look forward to having their work done by robots but each robot puts several people out of work, who now cannot afford to buy a robot or anything else. In spite of this problem becoming obvious, the right wing fights the solution. What does that say about the future? I think these movies capture the general direction pretty well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Men http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium_(film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blade_Runner Well worth seeing. Since the agricultural revolution, economic scarcity has been an artificial problem. It persists because of ideology, lack of vision and political gridlock. As automation continues, it will reach unseemly levels. European countries will have the good sense to address it long before the political will arises within the US, where we have infinite patience for the suffering of our fellow citizens and little in the way of a shared understanding about how to move forward. I doubt things will get much better in the US in any of our lifetimes. It would be something else to see Americans emigrating en mass to Ireland, Italy and eastern bloc countries in order to make a better life for themselves and their children. I assume cold fusion will make things worse initially, because of the extent to which it will facilitate automation. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:14 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair, Ed, the left wing fights the solution too. The solution being the unconditional basic income. It was the last thing Martin Luther King, Jr. recommended as the proper solution to inequality -- just before he was assassinated. I consider myself pretty liberal, and I think a basic income would be a good thing, if the unintended consequences could be anticipated and managed. (First one: if it's handled at the state level, how do you deal with the internal migration problem?). I do not believe a basic income should be accompanied by a flat tax, as one sometimes hears. I do like some of the ideas you've mentioned about experimentation at the local level. I wonder if states could be selectively given block grants to carry out these types of experiments in lieu of obligations under existing federal programs. I do not consider a basic income a realistic outcome in the US anytime soon, because of political gridlock. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
I wrote: It would be something else to see Americans emigrating en mass to Ireland, Italy and eastern bloc countries in order to make a better life for themselves and their children. No offense intended to anyone in these countries. This was just an allusion to the large migrations of people in Ireland, Italy and eastern Europe to the US during the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Many of the people here are descendants of those early immigrants. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Isaac Asimov predicts the world of 2014 in 1964
If you listen to the video by Charles Murray, you'll be listening not only to a voice of reasonable compromise, but the voice of experience regarding overcoming political gridlock. I agree, however, that the US looks likely to be headed toward devolution if it can't work out some means of localizing tests of social theory -- perhaps such as your block grant idea. However, I fear we are now in a situation that is similar to, but worse than that facing the protestant reformation: a de facto theocracy that is actively opposing not only of freedom of association among those sharing social theories, but is terrified of progress in the social sciences that might render the de facto theocracy forever incapable of enslaving the minds of men again. On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:16 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:14 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: To be fair, Ed, the left wing fights the solution too. The solution being the unconditional basic income. It was the last thing Martin Luther King, Jr. recommended as the proper solution to inequality -- just before he was assassinated. I consider myself pretty liberal, and I think a basic income would be a good thing, if the unintended consequences could be anticipated and managed. (First one: if it's handled at the state level, how do you deal with the internal migration problem?). I do not believe a basic income should be accompanied by a flat tax, as one sometimes hears. I do like some of the ideas you've mentioned about experimentation at the local level. I wonder if states could be selectively given block grants to carry out these types of experiments in lieu of obligations under existing federal programs. I do not consider a basic income a realistic outcome in the US anytime soon, because of political gridlock. Eric
