Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Giovanni Santostasi]

It is not possible. Bitcoin network itself is not hackable as credit cards
are. The vulnerabilities are in centralized places like exchanges that do
not take precautions to protect customers accounts (as cold wallets). A
network is very resistant to attacks like this. Look what is happening to
Bitcoin, even a disastrous event like what happened with MtGox created some
turmoil but not the end of Bitcoin. In fact price is bouncing back.
Bitcoin is going to be the future of money.



On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Giovanni Santostasi  wrote:
>
> Bitcoin will be 1 Million dollars by 2019.
>>
>
> Until a 16-year-old Russian Hacker gets into the bank, the way one got
> into the Target credit files. A week after that, the Bitcoin will be worth
> $14.38.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[H Veeder]

Do you know about the Earth's natural Schumann Resonance? There is a theory
that life evolved so as to become adapted to it and our EM broadcasts are
interfering with this adaptation.

Harry


On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 11:48 PM, ChemE Stewart  wrote:

> I didn't say cell phones were any better or worse, I have not studied them.
>
> My data is showing a strong correlation between areas of overlapping
> doppler microwave radars and excessive hypoxia and chronic algae blooms in
> waterways.  Hypoxia and oxidative stress in brains is also a marker in
> autism & alzheimers, along with mutations.
>
> We have immersed ourselves in a full spectrum of radiation.  We are the
> experiment.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[H Veeder]

Might the mechanical telephone will make a comeback?
Probably not since all communication seems to be going wireless these days.
But who knows...

Pulsion Telephone Company certificate and ad from 1889
http://scripophily.net/imputesecoma.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_can_telephone

<>


Harry

.


On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> ChemE Stewart  wrote:
>
>
>> Right,  we also used to have the Stanley Steamer and vacuum tube
>> technology and they were REPLACED with better technology
>>
>
> Better? Are you sure?
>
> Vacuum tube computer memory replaced CRT-based memory. Vacuum tubes were
> then replaced by magnetic core memory, which was replaced by semiconductor
> memory. But wait, magnetic core may be staging a comeback. It might replace
> semiconductor RAM again. As I said, the old is often made new again.
>
> Charles Spindt of SRI told me that ideas proposed by Ken Shoulders and Don
> Geppert's on integrated micron-sized "vacuum tubes" (Vacuum
> Microelectronics) had been pursued, maybe we would be using vacuum tube RAM
> today.
>
> People are now working on DNA based data storage systems. It does not seem
> likely to me these will ever be used for RAM memory, but you never know. If
> they are, all the world's data would fit in 8 mL of fluid costing a
> fraction of a penny. DNA is old technology. Very old. 3.5 billion years
> old. The DNA data transfer speed occurring in your body at this moment far
> exceeds the speed of all computers on earth.
>
> Electric cars were made obsolete in 1908 by the introduction of the Model
> T Ford. Today, gasoline cars are being may obsolete by the introduction of
> . . . electric cars, hybrid and pure.
>
> It may be that solar thermal lost its chance. It may never compete with PV
> or wind. Then again, maybe it will. I hope that all of them are soon
> replaced by cold fusion.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

It's an exchange.  It could be embezzlement.

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Eric Walker]

The recent Mt. Gox development is fascinating to watch.

Some important details:

   - There's no hard evidence at any point that anyone has lost their
   bitcoins.  Bitcoin transactions are permanently recorded in a distributed
   ledger, whose distributed character makes it quite difficult to forge
   transactions.
   - What Mt. Gox has done is to take customers' hard cash and give them
   units of bitcoin in exchange.  Those transactions were presumably
   permanently recorded in the ledger as a transfer.  Then, as far as we know,
   there was a distributed attack that made use of a misunderstanding on Mt.
   Gox's part about how a quirk in the bitcoin protocol works to trick Mt. Gox
   into giving away part of its capital reserves to people who did not
   actually hold bitcoin with Mt. Gox.  In practical terms, that appears to
   mean that Mt. Gox has given away money and is now undercapitalized (i.e.,
   it cannot redeem the withdrawal requests of all of its account holders,
   taken together).
   - To the best of my knowledge, Mt. Gox may still have a significant
   portion of the capital amount still in its possession, and therefore would
   be able to redeem part of peoples' requests for withdrawal.  Out of the
   estimated 400,000,000 USD in bitcoin managed by Mt. Gox, I have heard that
   somewhere on the order of 40,000,000 dollars were incorrectly disbursed, as
   a result of this attack.
   - Right now Mt. Gox appears to be in bunker mode, trying to figure out
   how to next proceed in what must be an incredibly tense situation for
   everyone involved.

I have not been following the details closely, and all of this should be
vetted.  Please correct anything I might have gotten wrong.  I'm no big fan
of Bitcoin, but what this vulnerability seems to demonstrate is not a
weakness in cryptocurrencies in general, or even in the core technology in
Bitcoin (something that might become apparent at some point later on in the
future), but instead a weakness in the implementation of a non-core detail
relating to Bitcoin.  The Bitcoin ledger itself has not been compromised,
so unless we learn otherwise we can assume that all amounts in Bitcoin have
been retained by the account holders.  What seems to be at stake is whether
they will be able to redeem with Mt. Gox and how it's going to unwind its
position.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Jed Rothwell]

Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.  wrote:


> It's supposed to be analogous to mining gold.  The minimum value is
> determined by the value of the effort
> to extract it ( man-hours or power equivalents, etc. ).  That's why they
> call it mining.
>
> That sets the lower limit on its value and prevents much inflation --
> brilliant.
>

No, it does not set the lower limit. The value does not depend only on the
difficulty of digital mining. If no one trusts them, no one will want them,
and the value will be nil. If there was no way to protect gold, no one
would want it no matter how hard (or easy) it is to get the stuff. DeLong
describes the ceiling and floor for gold and for money, and then writes:


"Placing a ceiling on the value of gold is mining technology, and the
prospect that if its price gets out of whack for long on the upside a great
deal more of it will be created. Placing a ceiling on the value of the
dollar is the Federal Reserve's role as actual dollar source, and its
commitment not to allow deflation to happen.

Placing a ceiling on the value of bitcoins is computer technology and the
form of the hash function... until the limit of 21 million bitcoins is
reached. Placing a floor on the value of bitcoins is... what, exactly?"

Since the supply of BitCoins is limited, it will be deflationary, like 19th
century gold-based money.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.
 wrote:
> Impressive!

Virtual Currencies (VC) allow anonymous transactions.  Look up Silk
Road.  People were buying drugs of all sorts.  Today people have
bought houses with bitcoin.

Banking hates it.  China banned bitcoin transactions within the
country some time ago.

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

Well, I can tell you that the Bilderbergers DO NOT LIKE BITCOIN.  LOL!

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Jed Rothwell]

Craig  wrote:


> The only thing that bugs me about your statement is that you think
> bitcoins are not secure against theft. They are, in fact, as secure as you
> make them. It's not a Bitcoin flaw.


Oh yes it is. The problem is built into the BitCoin origin in
Libertarianism.

I know nothing about BitCoin software, but I do know about banking, ATMs,
credit card transactions and so on. Long ago I wrote software manuals in
those apps, just after the Wild West days when programmers could steal
money by reprogramming the software in the salami technique, or printing
checks with one number in machine readable form, and another in human
readable form. (Those were the days!) Here's the thing. Real money, in real
banks, is nowadays tied up in many meters of red tape. There are laws,
regulations and standards galore protecting electronic assets. Banks in all
countries get together with big software companies and government
regulators. They pound out huge standards documents regulating every single
aspect of it. The system may resemble a battleship in motion with its
complexity and overhead . . . but it works. Banks are very secure. Credit
card transactions . . . not so much. A lot of problems there, as everyone
knows.

You said: "as you make it . . ." My point is, you don't "make it" in a
bank. You follow elaborate rules or they arrest you and close down the bank.

BitCoin was designed to give the finger to big government. Quote:

"BitCoin looks like it was designed as a weapon intended to damage central
banking and money issuing banks, with a Libertarian political agenda in
mind--to damage states ability to collect tax and monitor their citizens
financial transactions."

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/12/why-i-want-bitcoin-to-die-in-a.html

That is the agenda. I am familiar with it. This sure looks like something
put together by oh-so-clever people working outside the system. I doubt
they have approval or a shelf full of standards reviewed by drones and
detail obsessed programmers in every major government bank regulator's
office in the world. If you do not have that level of security, you are
vulnerable to organizations such as the Russian Mafia and the Japanese
gangsters, because those people have money and talent. They can outwit any
collection of Ayn Rand devotees. They are in a different league.

By the way, I agree with that author, and this statement:

Libertarianism is like Leninism: a fascinating, internally consistent
political theory with some good underlying points that, regrettably, makes
prescriptions about how to run human society that can only work if we
replace real messy human beings with frictionless spherical humanoids of
uniform density (because it relies on simplifying assumptions about human
behaviour which are unfortunately wrong).

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Hoyt A. Stearns Jr.]

Impressive!

It's supposed to be analogous to mining gold.  The minimum value is
determined by the value of the effort
to extract it ( man-hours or power equivalents, etc. ).  That's why they
call it mining.

That sets the lower limit on its value and prevents much inflation --
brilliant.

What I like is it keeps the bureaucrats out of free trading among
individuals.

As far as thefts, it's not much different than physical cash, you just have
to keep your coins
secure -- it's up to you.


Hoyt


-Original Message-
From: Terry Blanton [mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2014 7:25 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

I've studied bitcoin and litecoin for several months now.  Both have wiki
articles which take a while to understand what's going on.  You create the
coins by solving encryption puzzles.  As more coins are mined, the puzzles
get more complex.  Bitcoin has been around for a while and are very
difficult to mine.

Look at some of these bitcoin mining setups:

https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+mining+rigs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=
X&ei=clANU7fzMILQsQTVuYEw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=854&bih=578


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Craig]

On 02/25/2014 08:58 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
As Krugman says, "To be successful, money must be both a medium of 
exchange and a reasonably stable store of value." BitCoins fail #2 
because the value fluctuates and also, apparently, because they are 
not secure against theft.


- Jed


The only thing that bugs me about your statement is that you think 
bitcoins are not secure against theft. They are, in fact, as secure as 
you make them. It's not a Bitcoin flaw. It's even possible to put 
bitcoins on the block chain which require 5 of 9 signatures to access, 
or something like that. I'm sure that MtGox didn't do this.


Craig

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

I've studied bitcoin and litecoin for several months now.  Both have
wiki articles which take a while to understand what's going on.  You
create the coins by solving encryption puzzles.  As more coins are
mined, the puzzles get more complex.  Bitcoin has been around for a
while and are very difficult to mine.

Look at some of these bitcoin mining setups:

https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+mining+rigs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=clANU7fzMILQsQTVuYEw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAg&biw=854&bih=578

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

That's $6.9B in mined bitcoins.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> According to the current blockchain
>
> https://blockchain.info/charts/total-bitcoins
>
> there are 12,400,000 units in circulation representing a lot of money.
>
> Google "mining bitcoins".
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>>
>>> Whatever there is or is not, someone walked off with 700,000 units of it, if
>>> this report is accurate. That's worth $70 million, or maybe it is worth $7
>>> million, or maybe it is worth nothing.
>>
>> Go to btc-e.com.  Currently trading at $554.81 per unit.or
>> $388,000,000 and change.

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

Litecoin is an improvement over bitcoin.  Every holder of a litecoin
wallet maps the blockchain.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:11 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> You can mine your own bitcoins using an application specific integrated 
> circuits
>
> http://www.amazon.com/ASICMiner-Block-Erupter-USB-Sapphire/dp/B00CUJT7TO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1393380571&sr=8-2&keywords=bitcoin+asics
>
> You should really study this Jed.  It's sorta free money.  Next we
> will talk about litecoin.
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
>> According to the current blockchain
>>
>> https://blockchain.info/charts/total-bitcoins
>>
>> there are 12,400,000 units in circulation representing a lot of money.
>>
>> Google "mining bitcoins".
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
>>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>>>
 Whatever there is or is not, someone walked off with 700,000 units of it, 
 if
 this report is accurate. That's worth $70 million, or maybe it is worth $7
 million, or maybe it is worth nothing.
>>>
>>> Go to btc-e.com.  Currently trading at $554.81 per unit.or
>>> $388,000,000 and change.

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

You can mine your own bitcoins using an application specific integrated circuits

http://www.amazon.com/ASICMiner-Block-Erupter-USB-Sapphire/dp/B00CUJT7TO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1393380571&sr=8-2&keywords=bitcoin+asics

You should really study this Jed.  It's sorta free money.  Next we
will talk about litecoin.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:09 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> According to the current blockchain
>
> https://blockchain.info/charts/total-bitcoins
>
> there are 12,400,000 units in circulation representing a lot of money.
>
> Google "mining bitcoins".
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>>
>>> Whatever there is or is not, someone walked off with 700,000 units of it, if
>>> this report is accurate. That's worth $70 million, or maybe it is worth $7
>>> million, or maybe it is worth nothing.
>>
>> Go to btc-e.com.  Currently trading at $554.81 per unit.or
>> $388,000,000 and change.

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

According to the current blockchain

https://blockchain.info/charts/total-bitcoins

there are 12,400,000 units in circulation representing a lot of money.

Google "mining bitcoins".

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 9:04 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:
>
>> Whatever there is or is not, someone walked off with 700,000 units of it, if
>> this report is accurate. That's worth $70 million, or maybe it is worth $7
>> million, or maybe it is worth nothing.
>
> Go to btc-e.com.  Currently trading at $554.81 per unit.or
> $388,000,000 and change.

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 8:58 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Whatever there is or is not, someone walked off with 700,000 units of it, if
> this report is accurate. That's worth $70 million, or maybe it is worth $7
> million, or maybe it is worth nothing.

Go to btc-e.com.  Currently trading at $554.81 per unit.or
$388,000,000 and change.

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Jed Rothwell]

Craig  wrote:


> There is no bank. There are over 100,000 nodes maintaining a shared public
> ledger as to who owns what. Every time a transaction is made, it goes into
> the public ledger.


Whatever there is or is not, someone walked off with 700,000 units of it,
if this report is accurate. That's worth $70 million, or maybe it is worth
$7 million, or maybe it is worth nothing.

People do not rob banks electronically nowadays. They used to, back in the
1960s and 70s, when computers were new. I have some amusing old books
describing the techniques. They would never work nowadays. A typical one
was the salami technique, combined with the Zzubrinski deposit. You take
small amounts or rounding errors out of accounts and stuff them into the
last account listed alphabetically, which is a dummy account that you
opened with a fake name. Account holders who spot errors of a few cents are
not going to complain. They figure someone had difficulty reading the
check. In a large bank that piles up pretty quickly.

As Krugman says, "To be successful, money must be both a medium of exchange
and a reasonably stable store of value." BitCoins fail #2 because the value
fluctuates and also, apparently, because they are not secure against theft.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Craig]

On 02/25/2014 07:46 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Giovanni Santostasi > wrote:


Bitcoin will be 1 Million dollars by 2019.


Until a 16-year-old Russian Hacker gets into the bank, the way one got 
into the Target credit files. A week after that, the Bitcoin will be 
worth $14.38.


- Jed



There is no bank. There are over 100,000 nodes maintaining a shared 
public ledger as to who owns what. Every time a transaction is made, it 
goes into the public ledger. To hack Bitcoin, you need a majority of the 
entire system's processing power, (or someone could break sha256 
encryption, which would bring a lot of other things down, too). There is 
no central location or authority.


Craig

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[James Bowery]

There are two layers to the Bitcoin infrastructure:

The wire-transfer/public ledgers.

The exchanges.

The wire-transfer/public ledger software is compact and highly vetted.

The exchanges are just websites.

The exchanges are not necessary.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:46 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Giovanni Santostasi  wrote:
>
> Bitcoin will be 1 Million dollars by 2019.
>>
>
> Until a 16-year-old Russian Hacker gets into the bank, the way one got
> into the Target credit files. A week after that, the Bitcoin will be worth
> $14.38.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Jed Rothwell]

Giovanni Santostasi  wrote:

Bitcoin will be 1 Million dollars by 2019.
>

Until a 16-year-old Russian Hacker gets into the bank, the way one got into
the Target credit files. A week after that, the Bitcoin will be worth
$14.38.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Giovanni Santostasi]

Bitcoin will be 1 Million dollars by 2019.
And it is not evil. It is a revolutionary technology. Look it up.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 6:19 PM, Giovanni Santostasi
wrote:

> BTC-e is not chines but Bulgarian.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>> Recently posted by the Chinese bitcoin exchange btc-e.com :
>>
>> "
>>
>> BTC-e Statement regarding MtGox possible insolvency
>>
>> 25.02.14 17:31 from admin
>>
>> Dear BTC-e.com participants,
>>
>> We are concerned by MtGox shutdown and would like to assure you that:
>>
>> 1. MtGox losses do not affect account balances or the operation of
>> BTC-e in any way.
>>
>> 2. We confirm the Bitcoin system operation and its exciting prospects,
>> and MtGox bankruptcy has not been caused by any underlying technical
>> problems of Bitcoin. Bitcoin international peer-to-peer network and
>> cryptocurrency are independent of actions of a single market
>> participant. Bitcoin protocol continues to function exactly as it
>> should. The cryptocurrency maintains its stability and the network
>> will continue to develop and exist as long as required by its users.
>>
>> 3. At BTC-e we are constantly monitoring Bitcoin accounts and FIAT
>> reserves. At BTC-e we continue to maintain all clients' assets in full
>> - both Bitcoin and FIAT.
>>
>> 4. BTC-е has no vulnerabilities during client transactions as we use
>> safe and proven transaction protocols. All transaction issues reported
>> by our clients undergo a thorough check.
>>
>>
>> The safety of client funds and transactions is of ultimate importance
>> for the company, and this is the reason why we have been an industry
>> leader for the last three years.
>>
>> 1. BTC-е is at its peak of financial strength with the record levels
>> of clients and capital adequacy. The company plans to start publishing
>> financial statements, verified by an external audit, on a regular
>> basis.
>>
>> 2. The highest levels of security are already in place at BTC-e, and
>> the company regularly uses external professional advice to further
>> increase the security of our clients.
>>
>> 3. BTC-e is the only exchange to offer a modern trading platform,
>> MetaTrader 4, to its clients, and many other exciting projects and
>> further upgrades are in the pipeline.
>>
>> The company plans to soon begin to publish publicly available
>> statements certified by external auditors."
>>
>> 
>>
>> Bitcoin is presently trading at $516 from recent highs around $800.
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Giovanni Santostasi]

BTC-e is not chines but Bulgarian.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:

> Recently posted by the Chinese bitcoin exchange btc-e.com :
>
> "
>
> BTC-e Statement regarding MtGox possible insolvency
>
> 25.02.14 17:31 from admin
>
> Dear BTC-e.com participants,
>
> We are concerned by MtGox shutdown and would like to assure you that:
>
> 1. MtGox losses do not affect account balances or the operation of
> BTC-e in any way.
>
> 2. We confirm the Bitcoin system operation and its exciting prospects,
> and MtGox bankruptcy has not been caused by any underlying technical
> problems of Bitcoin. Bitcoin international peer-to-peer network and
> cryptocurrency are independent of actions of a single market
> participant. Bitcoin protocol continues to function exactly as it
> should. The cryptocurrency maintains its stability and the network
> will continue to develop and exist as long as required by its users.
>
> 3. At BTC-e we are constantly monitoring Bitcoin accounts and FIAT
> reserves. At BTC-e we continue to maintain all clients' assets in full
> - both Bitcoin and FIAT.
>
> 4. BTC-е has no vulnerabilities during client transactions as we use
> safe and proven transaction protocols. All transaction issues reported
> by our clients undergo a thorough check.
>
>
> The safety of client funds and transactions is of ultimate importance
> for the company, and this is the reason why we have been an industry
> leader for the last three years.
>
> 1. BTC-е is at its peak of financial strength with the record levels
> of clients and capital adequacy. The company plans to start publishing
> financial statements, verified by an external audit, on a regular
> basis.
>
> 2. The highest levels of security are already in place at BTC-e, and
> the company regularly uses external professional advice to further
> increase the security of our clients.
>
> 3. BTC-e is the only exchange to offer a modern trading platform,
> MetaTrader 4, to its clients, and many other exciting projects and
> further upgrades are in the pipeline.
>
> The company plans to soon begin to publish publicly available
> statements certified by external auditors."
>
> 
>
> Bitcoin is presently trading at $516 from recent highs around $800.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[James Bowery]

What is sensible about not noticing that you were being robbed of a
significant portion of your assets for years on end?

The Wall Street debacles were nothing like this.  Those were market
bubbles.  While there may be a market bubble popped by this the thing
popping it is this theft.

Perhaps they meant that the theft occurred all at once.  If so it is more
believable but still, from what I know about "cold" vs "hot"storage, it
doesn't work that way.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> James Bowery  wrote:
>
> My take on the document is that it makes no sense for the following simple
>> reason:
>>
>> If you take a look at the page that says "Financial Assets and
>> Liabilities", they list their Bitcoin assets as "2,000" and the Bitcoin
>> liabilities as "744,408" all of which they count as "theft" that took place
>> over a 5 year period.
>>
>> That means that over a period of 5 years, they lost 99.7% of their
>> Bitcoins and didn't notice it until recently.
>>
>
> What does not make sense about that? People often make stupid mistakes and
> lose vast sums of money. See Wall Street 1929, 2008.
>
> Back in the 1980s, medium sized companies went out of business because
> they had large computer systems crash without a backup.
>
> - - - - - - - - -
>
> Assuming this document is legitimate, whoever wrote it seems stupid to me.
> It says:
>
> "At this 744,408 BTC are missing due to malleability-related theft which
> went unnoticed for several years. The cold storage has been wiped out due
> to a leak in the hot wallet. . . .
>
> We believe in the value of the coin, its potential to change the world,
> and its principles of transparency . . ."
>
> I do not know what "cold storage" or a "hot wallet" means, but evidently
> they are cybernetic. They are virtual entities. Clearly, if this is true
> they don't work well. They are unreliable. So why does this author believe
> in the value of them? What is "transparent" about a software system the
> hides the theft of 700,000 units? That would be opaque. This makes no sense
> to me. If you put your money in a bank vault and come back a week later to
> find the money is gone, why would you continue to believe the vault is a
> safe place to put your money?
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Jed Rothwell]

James Bowery  wrote:

My take on the document is that it makes no sense for the following simple
> reason:
>
> If you take a look at the page that says "Financial Assets and
> Liabilities", they list their Bitcoin assets as "2,000" and the Bitcoin
> liabilities as "744,408" all of which they count as "theft" that took place
> over a 5 year period.
>
> That means that over a period of 5 years, they lost 99.7% of their
> Bitcoins and didn't notice it until recently.
>

What does not make sense about that? People often make stupid mistakes and
lose vast sums of money. See Wall Street 1929, 2008.

Back in the 1980s, medium sized companies went out of business because they
had large computer systems crash without a backup.

- - - - - - - - -

Assuming this document is legitimate, whoever wrote it seems stupid to me.
It says:

"At this 744,408 BTC are missing due to malleability-related theft which
went unnoticed for several years. The cold storage has been wiped out due
to a leak in the hot wallet. . . .

We believe in the value of the coin, its potential to change the world, and
its principles of transparency . . ."

I do not know what "cold storage" or a "hot wallet" means, but evidently
they are cybernetic. They are virtual entities. Clearly, if this is true
they don't work well. They are unreliable. So why does this author believe
in the value of them? What is "transparent" about a software system the
hides the theft of 700,000 units? That would be opaque. This makes no sense
to me. If you put your money in a bank vault and come back a week later to
find the money is gone, why would you continue to believe the vault is a
safe place to put your money?

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:The Dirty Dozen Basic routes to thermal gain for hydrogen in a lattice

[mixent]

In reply to  Kevin O'Malley's message of Mon, 24 Feb 2014 23:18:05 -0800:
Hi,
[snip]
>All:
>I found an interesting Cold FusionTheory Wiki
>
>http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Cold_fusion/Theory
>
>It's a start, at least.
>
Over the years I have provided many examples of how Hydrinos could result in
fission or fast protons/electrons.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[James Bowery]

My take on the document is that it makes no sense for the following simple
reason:

If you take a look at the page that says "Financial Assets and
Liabilities", they list their Bitcoin assets as "2,000" and the Bitcoin
liabilities as "744,408" all of which they count as "theft" that took place
over a 5 year period.

That means that over a period of 5 years, they lost 99.7% of their Bitcoins
and didn't notice it until recently.

Think about that for a microsecond.  OK, take your time if it doesn't sink
in that fast.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 3:00 PM, James Bowery  wrote:

> Today's ruckus started with the anonymous posting of this document:
>
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/209050732/MtGox-Situation-Crisis-Strategy-Draft
>
> The veracity of the document has not been established and there are
> reasons to believe it is not authentic.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
>
>> What are you talking about?
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:37 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
>> > To be clear, the source of this news was a document that apparently was
>> > forged.
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/25/bitcoin-exchange-mtgox-offline-amid-rumours-of-theft
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Terry Blanton 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> From Japanese exchange MtGox, now closed.  No guarantees, no
>> >> insurance.  Someones are out half a billion bucks.  One of the largest
>> >> thefts in history (excluding congressional thefts).
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Craig]

On 02/25/2014 03:47 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
So I've heard. Ummm . . . What was that again are you talking about? I 
still don't get it.


I have heard it is evil but I wouldn't know. See:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/

- Jed



Well, it's a political issue to call it evil. Some people think it's one 
of the greatest monetary inventions. Ironically, in that Krugman 
article, he's not really calling it evil. He's basically saying that he 
is having second thoughts about it, and may reconsider his original 
negative attitude toward it.


But if you still don't get it, then imagine a paypal application on your 
Android phone; only instead of the Paypal account holding US dollars, it 
holds bitcoins. You can send or receive bitcoins from anyone, anywhere, 
at any time, though a decentralized network of bitcoin nodes. Settlement 
occurs in about 10 minutes, on average. Bitcoins can be exchange for 
dollars, and all other international currencies, though local exchanges, 
like MtGox, which had the lion's share of the business, until recently.


Craig

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[ChemE Stewart]

The technology of hundreds of thousands of flat mirrors pointed across
hundreds of acres at a water boiler hundreds of feet in the air cycling at
thousands of lbs pressure is obsolete.  The MIT PhDs need to go work in a
power plant and not just do an energy balance.  It is capital intensive,
maintenance intensive and will be a great prop for the next "Sahara" movie
sequel.

FYI, I started my career for a controls/software Company named "measurex"
(now part of Honeywell) located on Bubb road in Cupertino, CA down the
street from Apple.  I programmed and installed control systems.  We were
always calling the software/hardware competitors system they had just sold
"vaporware" because they sold something they had never done before.  Some
software is buggy and crappy

So don't give me your bleeding heart programmers don't make fun of other
programmer's software,

I respect good technology, good software, good engineering and facts.
 Adding $1.6B to the national debt for a movie prop seems stupid to me.

I will hold off on the greenie weenie comments if it hurts your
feelings,  I am a bit of one myself

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> ChemE Stewart 
> 
> > wrote:
>
> My tax money helped pay for it, I can call it what I want.  I have
>> designed a solar thermal plant.
>
>
> Since you designed one, you damn well should see these are not Home Depot
> consumer-grade mirrors, and you should have more respect for your
> colleagues who designed this facility. The people who wrote this document
> are good at what they do, even if what they are doing turns out to be
> technological dead end:
>
> http://www.google.org/pdfs/google_heliostat_reflector_design.pdf
>
>
>
>>  How any have you designed Jed?
>
>
> I have designed a lot of software. Enough that I would never go to a forum
> like this and claim that Microsoft Word is garbage written by monkeys
> banging on typewriters. I think Word is obsolete in many ways. It has an
> advanced case of feature-itis. The graphics integration is dreadful. But
> any product has problems. I respect the professional capabilities of the
> people who wrote it.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[James Bowery]

Today's ruckus started with the anonymous posting of this document:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/209050732/MtGox-Situation-Crisis-Strategy-Draft

The veracity of the document has not been established and there are reasons
to believe it is not authentic.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 1:59 PM, Terry Blanton  wrote:

> What are you talking about?
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:37 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
> > To be clear, the source of this news was a document that apparently was
> > forged.
> >
> >
> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/25/bitcoin-exchange-mtgox-offline-amid-rumours-of-theft
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Terry Blanton 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> From Japanese exchange MtGox, now closed.  No guarantees, no
> >> insurance.  Someones are out half a billion bucks.  One of the largest
> >> thefts in history (excluding congressional thefts).
> >>
> >
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

Recently posted by the Chinese bitcoin exchange btc-e.com :

"

BTC-e Statement regarding MtGox possible insolvency

25.02.14 17:31 from admin

Dear BTC-e.com participants,

We are concerned by MtGox shutdown and would like to assure you that:

1. MtGox losses do not affect account balances or the operation of
BTC-e in any way.

2. We confirm the Bitcoin system operation and its exciting prospects,
and MtGox bankruptcy has not been caused by any underlying technical
problems of Bitcoin. Bitcoin international peer-to-peer network and
cryptocurrency are independent of actions of a single market
participant. Bitcoin protocol continues to function exactly as it
should. The cryptocurrency maintains its stability and the network
will continue to develop and exist as long as required by its users.

3. At BTC-e we are constantly monitoring Bitcoin accounts and FIAT
reserves. At BTC-e we continue to maintain all clients' assets in full
- both Bitcoin and FIAT.

4. BTC-е has no vulnerabilities during client transactions as we use
safe and proven transaction protocols. All transaction issues reported
by our clients undergo a thorough check.


The safety of client funds and transactions is of ultimate importance
for the company, and this is the reason why we have been an industry
leader for the last three years.

1. BTC-е is at its peak of financial strength with the record levels
of clients and capital adequacy. The company plans to start publishing
financial statements, verified by an external audit, on a regular
basis.

2. The highest levels of security are already in place at BTC-e, and
the company regularly uses external professional advice to further
increase the security of our clients.

3. BTC-e is the only exchange to offer a modern trading platform,
MetaTrader 4, to its clients, and many other exciting projects and
further upgrades are in the pipeline.

The company plans to soon begin to publish publicly available
statements certified by external auditors."



Bitcoin is presently trading at $516 from recent highs around $800.

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

744,408 missing coins.  I understand how it works.  I was asking James
why he said something about a forged document?  I read nothing about
any forged documents.  There are rumors of money laundering.

This comes on the heels of JP Morgan announcing their intent to launch
a virtual (read anonymous) currency which could easily cause the likes
of bitcoin, litecoin, feathercoin to lose value.

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 3:23 PM, Craig  wrote:
> On 02/25/2014 02:59 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:
>>
>> What are you talking about?
>>
>>
>
> Bitcoins are an international crypto-currency which exist solely in a
> decentralized fashion on the internet. They allow people to send and receive
> bitcoins, as money, from anywhere in the world, with almost immediate
> settlement. The largest exchange for this currency was a company named
> MtGox. They have been delaying the delivery of cash to customers, when
> bitcoins were sold, for about 6 months now; and now they've gone offline
> completely. There's a rumor that they've lost 744,000 bitcoins, which is
> about $500 million dollars, give or take.
>
> Craig
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Jed Rothwell]

Craig  wrote:

On 02/25/2014 02:59 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>> What are you talking about?
>>
>>
>>
> Bitcoins are an international crypto-currency which exist solely in a
> decentralized fashion on the internet. They allow people to send and
> receive bitcoins, as money, from anywhere in the world, with almost
> immediate settlement.. . .


So I've heard. Ummm . . . What was that again are you talking about? I
still don't get it.

I have heard it is evil but I wouldn't know. See:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/bitcoin-is-evil/

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Giovanni Santostasi]

Just one word: FUD. I don't think it is true that many BTC are missing.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Craig  wrote:

> On 02/25/2014 02:59 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:
>
>> What are you talking about?
>>
>>
>>
> Bitcoins are an international crypto-currency which exist solely in a
> decentralized fashion on the internet. They allow people to send and
> receive bitcoins, as money, from anywhere in the world, with almost
> immediate settlement. The largest exchange for this currency was a company
> named MtGox. They have been delaying the delivery of cash to customers,
> when bitcoins were sold, for about 6 months now; and now they've gone
> offline completely. There's a rumor that they've lost 744,000 bitcoins,
> which is about $500 million dollars, give or take.
>
> Craig
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Craig]

On 02/25/2014 02:59 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:

What are you talking about?




Bitcoins are an international crypto-currency which exist solely in a 
decentralized fashion on the internet. They allow people to send and 
receive bitcoins, as money, from anywhere in the world, with almost 
immediate settlement. The largest exchange for this currency was a 
company named MtGox. They have been delaying the delivery of cash to 
customers, when bitcoins were sold, for about 6 months now; and now 
they've gone offline completely. There's a rumor that they've lost 
744,000 bitcoins, which is about $500 million dollars, give or take.


Craig

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jed Rothwell]

ChemE Stewart  wrote:

My tax money helped pay for it, I can call it what I want.  I have designed
> a solar thermal plant.


Since you designed one, you damn well should see these are not Home Depot
consumer-grade mirrors, and you should have more respect for your
colleagues who designed this facility. The people who wrote this document
are good at what they do, even if what they are doing turns out to be
technological dead end:

http://www.google.org/pdfs/google_heliostat_reflector_design.pdf



>  How any have you designed Jed?


I have designed a lot of software. Enough that I would never go to a forum
like this and claim that Microsoft Word is garbage written by monkeys
banging on typewriters. I think Word is obsolete in many ways. It has an
advanced case of feature-itis. The graphics integration is dreadful. But
any product has problems. I respect the professional capabilities of the
people who wrote it.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

What are you talking about?

On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 2:37 PM, James Bowery  wrote:
> To be clear, the source of this news was a document that apparently was
> forged.
>
> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/25/bitcoin-exchange-mtgox-offline-amid-rumours-of-theft
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Terry Blanton  wrote:
>>
>> From Japanese exchange MtGox, now closed.  No guarantees, no
>> insurance.  Someones are out half a billion bucks.  One of the largest
>> thefts in history (excluding congressional thefts).
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[ChemE Stewart]

My tax money helped pay for it, I can call it what I want.  I have designed
a solar thermal plant.  How any have you designed Jed?

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, ChemE Stewart  wrote:

> It might make a good bird feeder
>
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, Jed Rothwell 
> >
> wrote:
>
>> ChemE Stewart  wrote:
>>
>> That is not brightsource high pressure 1500 psig, Home Depot mirrors . . .
>>
>>
>> Would you please stop saying "Home Depot mirrors." This is technically
>> inaccurate and disrespectful. You know darn well these are high-tech,
>> carefully engineered mirrors, nothing like a retail consumer mirror. Do not
>> make a mockery of this discussion.
>>
>> If you have a valid technical point to make, make it without insulting
>> me, or Google, or the engineers who designed the heliostats. Just because
>> you do not think there is a future to their technology, that does not mean
>> you have right to declare it slapdash, or unsound, or not carefully planned
>> with good craftsmanship. Even if this turns out to be obsolete, like the
>> airships of the 1930s, it is still an engineering triumph -- as the
>> airships were.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[ChemE Stewart]

It might make a good bird feeder

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> ChemE Stewart 
> 
> > wrote:
>
> That is not brightsource high pressure 1500 psig, Home Depot mirrors . . .
>
>
> Would you please stop saying "Home Depot mirrors." This is technically
> inaccurate and disrespectful. You know darn well these are high-tech,
> carefully engineered mirrors, nothing like a retail consumer mirror. Do not
> make a mockery of this discussion.
>
> If you have a valid technical point to make, make it without insulting me,
> or Google, or the engineers who designed the heliostats. Just because you
> do not think there is a future to their technology, that does not mean you
> have right to declare it slapdash, or unsound, or not carefully planned
> with good craftsmanship. Even if this turns out to be obsolete, like the
> airships of the 1930s, it is still an engineering triumph -- as the
> airships were.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jed Rothwell]

ChemE Stewart  wrote:

Even greenie weenies don't like it, in addition to avian roast


And stop using derogatory names like "greenie weenie." That is
inappropriate to this forum.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jed Rothwell]

ChemE Stewart  wrote:

That is not brightsource high pressure 1500 psig, Home Depot mirrors . . .


Would you please stop saying "Home Depot mirrors." This is technically
inaccurate and disrespectful. You know darn well these are high-tech,
carefully engineered mirrors, nothing like a retail consumer mirror. Do not
make a mockery of this discussion.

If you have a valid technical point to make, make it without insulting me,
or Google, or the engineers who designed the heliostats. Just because you
do not think there is a future to their technology, that does not mean you
have right to declare it slapdash, or unsound, or not carefully planned
with good craftsmanship. Even if this turns out to be obsolete, like the
airships of the 1930s, it is still an engineering triumph -- as the
airships were.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[ChemE Stewart]

Even greenie weenies don't like it, in addition to avian roast


http://www.greenbiz.com/blog/2014/02/19/largest-solar-thermal-plant-completed-ivanpah


On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, ChemE Stewart  wrote:

> That is not brightsource high pressure 1500 psig, Home Depot mirrors,
> water boiler and steam turbine technology so no, I am not short sited.
>
> You listed a hybrid PV technology to cool cells and re-use low grade
> heat. Big difference.
>
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, Jones Beene 
> >
> wrote:
>
>   *From:* ChemE Stewart
>
>
>
> I can slap in a 50 MW peaking solar PV field in a couple months for 1/2
> the price and a year and 1/2 faster than a solar thermal plant.  Obsolete
> technology. Period
>
>
>
> That is very short sighted. It ignores the inevitable progress and the
> vast possibilities for synergy in the next generation. In fact, this
> particular technology is not far from the cutting edge, if a relatively
> simple upgrade can be implemented.
>
>
>
> They - which includes Google - are already talking about the next
> generation of concentrated solar. It is called CPVT. The same heliostats,
> or the same collector surfaces - which are installed in the Mojave site, or
> preferably a smaller site - could even be used but with a twist.
>
>
>
> If you can slap a PV field together in a couple of months then a hybrid PV
> panel can be slapped onto existing mirrors in a couple of weeks, and R&D is
> already underway to do this. Alternatively, high temperature PV panels are
> placed over the collector exterior. Both of these require a different kind
> of PV cell which skims off photon spectra - one can be high pass and the
> other low pass; and then either reflects most photons or absorbs them. In
> fact the PV can be added to both mirror and collector of concentrated solar
> thermal.
>
>
>
> The hybrid technology is called CPVT and it can employ an existing mirror
> rendered partly reflective since the modified PV panel is located on the
> mirror, or as the covering for an existing collector it will permit thermal
> transfer. In some cases the PV part will be less efficient than normal PV,
> but a large fraction of photons are reflected and concentrated. Synergy
> exists, since you get the free heliostat steering (sunk cost) of the
> existing mirrors.
>
>
>
> Here is a CPVT version for parabolic troughs which is already in place.
>
>
>
>
> http://chromasun.com/images/content/papers/Initial%20field%20performance%20of%20a%20hybrid%20CPV-T_May2012.pdf
>
>

Re: [Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[James Bowery]

To be clear, the source of this news was a document that apparently was
forged.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/feb/25/bitcoin-exchange-mtgox-offline-amid-rumours-of-theft


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Terry Blanton  wrote:

> From Japanese exchange MtGox, now closed.  No guarantees, no
> insurance.  Someones are out half a billion bucks.  One of the largest
> thefts in history (excluding congressional thefts).
>
>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[ChemE Stewart]

That is not brightsource high pressure 1500 psig, Home Depot mirrors, water
boiler and steam turbine technology so no, I am not short sited.

You listed a hybrid PV technology to cool cells and re-use low grade heat.
Big difference.

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, Jones Beene  wrote:

>   *From:* ChemE Stewart
>
>
>
> I can slap in a 50 MW peaking solar PV field in a couple months for 1/2
> the price and a year and 1/2 faster than a solar thermal plant.  Obsolete
> technology. Period
>
>
>
> That is very short sighted. It ignores the inevitable progress and the
> vast possibilities for synergy in the next generation. In fact, this
> particular technology is not far from the cutting edge, if a relatively
> simple upgrade can be implemented.
>
>
>
> They - which includes Google - are already talking about the next
> generation of concentrated solar. It is called CPVT. The same heliostats,
> or the same collector surfaces - which are installed in the Mojave site, or
> preferably a smaller site - could even be used but with a twist.
>
>
>
> If you can slap a PV field together in a couple of months then a hybrid PV
> panel can be slapped onto existing mirrors in a couple of weeks, and R&D is
> already underway to do this. Alternatively, high temperature PV panels are
> placed over the collector exterior. Both of these require a different kind
> of PV cell which skims off photon spectra - one can be high pass and the
> other low pass; and then either reflects most photons or absorbs them. In
> fact the PV can be added to both mirror and collector of concentrated solar
> thermal.
>
>
>
> The hybrid technology is called CPVT and it can employ an existing mirror
> rendered partly reflective since the modified PV panel is located on the
> mirror, or as the covering for an existing collector it will permit thermal
> transfer. In some cases the PV part will be less efficient than normal PV,
> but a large fraction of photons are reflected and concentrated. Synergy
> exists, since you get the free heliostat steering (sunk cost) of the
> existing mirrors.
>
>
>
> Here is a CPVT version for parabolic troughs which is already in place.
>
>
>
>
> http://chromasun.com/images/content/papers/Initial%20field%20performance%20of%20a%20hybrid%20CPV-T_May2012.pdf
>
>
>
> Here is an CPVT system for distributed (home) use. Makes perfect sense
> since very hot water for home heating is essentially free.
>
> http://solvarsystems.com/company/index/items/27
>
>
>
> Here is a bibliography that focuses more on the non-concentrated version,
> which is called PVT.
>
>
>
> http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijp/2012/307287/ref/
>
>
>
> There is nothing obsolete about concentrated solar thermal as the first
> step towards a hybrid, especially as it progresses to CPVT. However, it
> should be perfected for distributed cogen systems first IMO. Unfortunately
> Google is not very interested in the distributed option.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jed Rothwell]

ChemE Stewart  wrote:

Flat mirrors, water boilers and steam turbine manufacturing have
> already evolved, like the wheel


Combustion technology (fire) is by far the oldest and best developed
technology, but it has made tremendous strides in the last 50 years, and
there is no telling how much better it might get. Billions of dollars are
invested in combustion technology.

Automobile tires and wheels have changed quite a bit in the last 10 years.
Eventually, tires that do not need to be inflated will be perfected. That
will be a major improvement.

Wind turbines have also evolved since they were invented 2000 years ago,
but the pace of change and improvement increased exponentially in the last
generation. Wind turbine size and power has increased by a factor of 100 in
the last 30 years, from 75 kW to over 7,500 kW. The turbines now being
constructed would have been unimaginable when the technology began to
undergo a renaissance in the 1970s. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wind_turbine_size_increase_1980-2011.png

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jones Beene]

From: ChemE Stewart 

 

I can slap in a 50 MW peaking solar PV field in a couple months for 1/2 the
price and a year and 1/2 faster than a solar thermal plant.  Obsolete
technology. Period

 

That is very short sighted. It ignores the inevitable progress and the vast
possibilities for synergy in the next generation. In fact, this particular
technology is not far from the cutting edge, if a relatively simple upgrade
can be implemented.

 

They - which includes Google - are already talking about the next generation
of concentrated solar. It is called CPVT. The same heliostats, or the same
collector surfaces - which are installed in the Mojave site, or preferably a
smaller site - could even be used but with a twist. 

 

If you can slap a PV field together in a couple of months then a hybrid PV
panel can be slapped onto existing mirrors in a couple of weeks, and R&D is
already underway to do this. Alternatively, high temperature PV panels are
placed over the collector exterior. Both of these require a different kind
of PV cell which skims off photon spectra - one can be high pass and the
other low pass; and then either reflects most photons or absorbs them. In
fact the PV can be added to both mirror and collector of concentrated solar
thermal.

 

The hybrid technology is called CPVT and it can employ an existing mirror
rendered partly reflective since the modified PV panel is located on the
mirror, or as the covering for an existing collector it will permit thermal
transfer. In some cases the PV part will be less efficient than normal PV,
but a large fraction of photons are reflected and concentrated. Synergy
exists, since you get the free heliostat steering (sunk cost) of the
existing mirrors.

 

Here is a CPVT version for parabolic troughs which is already in place.

 

http://chromasun.com/images/content/papers/Initial%20field%20performance%20o
f%20a%20hybrid%20CPV-T_May2012.pdf

 

Here is an CPVT system for distributed (home) use. Makes perfect sense since
very hot water for home heating is essentially free.

http://solvarsystems.com/company/index/items/27

 

Here is a bibliography that focuses more on the non-concentrated version,
which is called PVT.

 

http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijp/2012/307287/ref/

 

There is nothing obsolete about concentrated solar thermal as the first step
towards a hybrid, especially as it progresses to CPVT. However, it should be
perfected for distributed cogen systems first IMO. Unfortunately Google is
not very interested in the distributed option.

 





 

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[ChemE Stewart]

Flat mirrors, water boilers and steam turbine manufacturing have
already evolved, like the wheel

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> a.ashfield 
> 
> > wrote:
>
>  That is false logic.  You might as well claim Tokamaks are the answer,
>> and we should do the research here, no matter what the cost, or be left
>> behind.  The problem is of course that if the system is fundamentally
>> uneconomic no amount of research is going to fix it.
>>
>
> It is not clear whether solar thermal is fundamentally uneconomical, or
> whether it has not been funded enough to lower the cost. The price per
> kilowatt hour is close enough to PV or wind that it may be competitive.
> Also, that depends on the market and the geographic location.
>
> The Tokomak is not competitive. That seems pretty clear. See:
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/RossiData/KrakowskiARIES.pdf
>
> For a long time, people said that wind and PV would never become
> competitive. Some conservatives still say that. They do not take into
> account the hidden social and economic costs of coal, such as 20,000 dead
> people a year. They do not take into account the cost of uranium fission
> reactor accident. You could not take into account this cost before now,
> because there were not many major accidents with Western European and U.S.
> reactors. The Fukushima accident has displaced 90,000 people and
> contaminated somewhere between 4% and 8% of the land in Japan. That is a
> very high price to pay for electricity.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jed Rothwell]

a.ashfield  wrote:

 That is false logic.  You might as well claim Tokamaks are the answer, and
> we should do the research here, no matter what the cost, or be left
> behind.  The problem is of course that if the system is fundamentally
> uneconomic no amount of research is going to fix it.
>

It is not clear whether solar thermal is fundamentally uneconomical, or
whether it has not been funded enough to lower the cost. The price per
kilowatt hour is close enough to PV or wind that it may be competitive.
Also, that depends on the market and the geographic location.

The Tokomak is not competitive. That seems pretty clear. See:

http://lenr-canr.org/RossiData/KrakowskiARIES.pdf

For a long time, people said that wind and PV would never become
competitive. Some conservatives still say that. They do not take into
account the hidden social and economic costs of coal, such as 20,000 dead
people a year. They do not take into account the cost of uranium fission
reactor accident. You could not take into account this cost before now,
because there were not many major accidents with Western European and U.S.
reactors. The Fukushima accident has displaced 90,000 people and
contaminated somewhere between 4% and 8% of the land in Japan. That is a
very high price to pay for electricity.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[a.ashfield]

Jed wrote."You are missing the point. We have to build these things here 
and now if we want to reduce the cost and play a future role in this 
technology. We cannot let China and other countries do all of R&D now 
and then later expect to be in this business. We cannot expect the first 
units to compete with established technology such as coal and wind."


That is false logic.You might as well claim Tokamaks are the answer, and 
we should do the research here, no matter what the cost, or be left 
behind.The problem is of course that if the system is fundamentally 
uneconomic no amount of research is going to fix it.It looks to me that 
thermal solar is in that category.I don't care who recommends 
it.Remember, MIT dismissed cold fusion in an unethical way.Group think 
at its best.


Maybe the numbers are available.I haven't seen them.I suspect that 
Brightsource is a huge boondoggle.Perhaps you can prove me wrong.


There are a number of more promising avenues for research. Possibly half 
a dozen more economical fusion and fission projects are essentially 
unsupported because of ITER's drain on funds.


I think moving pebble bed reactors are a more promising interim 
solution.China is developing and building those.There is no possibility 
of a meltdown with them being passively fail safe.   Disposal of 
radwaste is only a problem because of the bureaucracy handling it.


I would prefer to see LFTRs developed.I remain optimistic about the 
E-Cat HT.

Re: [Vo]:Homopolar generators and the truth of magnetism

[Lennart Thornros]

Hello John Berry,
Yes, I am forced to write date as you say. Logic? No way. Then you ought to
start with seconds when you give the time. Correct is of course /MM/DD
just like the time HH/MM/SS.
Another thing to pick up from Europe is the usage of 24 hour clock and to
use the week number for delivery time etc.
 I am glad you guys in this forum does not use lbs, feet and stuff like
that.Pint I do agree with:)

Best Regards ,
Lennart Thornros

www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com
lenn...@thornros.com
+1 916 436 1899
6140 Horseshoe Bar Road Suite G, Loomis CA 95650

"Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment
to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort." PJM


On Mon, Feb 24, 2014 at 9:21 PM, John Berry  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 4:02 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
>>
>> Europeans use a comma instead of a decimal point.
>>
> Yes, very confusing in some cases.
>
> Russians putting dollar signs at the end: 100$
> May be consistent with the what we do other things, so it is logical, but
> still wrong.
>
> And what about electrical wiring colour codes!
> For one it changes from country to country somewhat, moreover it changes
> over time.
> And talk about one that REALLY matters!
>
> And the current scheme kills people who guess.
> Ok, so there is Brown, that MUST by the earth! What idiot would decide
> that should be the colour for live?
> The one is bright striped colours looks like a clear warning,looks like I
> should stay well clear of the obvious danger.
> And blue, the colour of electricity, must be the neutral
>
> Maybe it is the brown one because it is the colour your undies will be
> after you touch it.
>
> Ok, and one week from now is 04.03.2014 (dd/mm/) for me, but many
> reading will think I meant a month and a week away.
>
> John
>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[ChemE Stewart]

No, they had already commited their money a couple of years ago for
Ivanpah.  They decided to not invest anymore in solar thermal.

I can slap in a 50 MW peaking solar PV field in a couple months for 1/2 the
price and a year and 1/2 faster than a solar thermal plant.  Obsolete
technology. Period

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014, Jones Beene  wrote:

> From: Jed Rothwell
>
> Is it worth the risk? Google apparently thought it was for
> a
> while, then they changed their minds. Maybe they will change their minds
> back again.
>
> Apparently, they did change their minds back again. PRESS RELEASE:
>
> Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System Reaches 'First Sync' Milestone
>
> NIPTON, Calif.--Sep. 24, 2013--Today it was announced that the Ivanpah
> Solar
> Electric Generating System produced its first output of energy when the
> Unit
> 1 station was synchronized to the power grid for the first time.  Achieving
> this critical "first sync" is a major milestone for the project, which is
> jointly-owned by NRG Energy, Inc., BrightSource Energy, Inc. and Google.
>

[Vo]:[OT] 740,000 Bitcoins Missing

[Terry Blanton]

>From Japanese exchange MtGox, now closed.  No guarantees, no
insurance.  Someones are out half a billion bucks.  One of the largest
thefts in history (excluding congressional thefts).

RE: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jones Beene]

From: Jed Rothwell 

Is it worth the risk? Google apparently thought it was for a
while, then they changed their minds. Maybe they will change their minds
back again. 

Apparently, they did change their minds back again. PRESS RELEASE: 

Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System Reaches 'First Sync' Milestone 

NIPTON, Calif.--Sep. 24, 2013--Today it was announced that the Ivanpah Solar
Electric Generating System produced its first output of energy when the Unit
1 station was synchronized to the power grid for the first time.  Achieving
this critical "first sync" is a major milestone for the project, which is
jointly-owned by NRG Energy, Inc., BrightSource Energy, Inc. and Google.
<>

Re: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jed Rothwell]

a.ashfield  wrote:

 Jones wrote. "If you live in a country with little coal, hydro, oil or
> gas, 35 cents is about average."
>
> But we don't. (not to mention LENR) So why build the Brightsource plant
> here?
>

You are missing the point. We have to build these things here and now if we
want to reduce the cost and play a future role in this technology. We
cannot let China and other countries do all of R&D now and then later
expect to be in this business. We cannot expect the first units to compete
with established technology such as coal and wind.

This is a risk. Solar thermal may not fall in price quickly enough. It may
be left behind by PV or wind. Is it worth the risk? Google apparently
thought it was for a while, then they changed their minds. Maybe they will
change their minds back again. In any case, once the project was underway
it made sense to complete it.

When steamships were first developed in the 1830s and 40s people proposed
using them in the transatlantic trade. The British government and other
proposed methods of subsidizing them, for example, to carry mail. This was
met with by protests from conservatives, who said -- quite correctly --
that steamships were more expensive than sail, and these subsidies
interfered with free-market capitalism. These conservatives were missing
the point. Steam had to be subsidized at first because it was new whereas
sailing ship had been developed to a high degree of efficiency for hundreds
of years, often with government subsidies, especially for warships.
Steamships needed a boost up. It took 20 to 40 years (in various different
markets), but eventually they became competitive.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:BrightSource

[Jones Beene]

 

From: a.ashfield 

 

Jones wrote. "If you live in a country with little coal, hydro, oil or
gas, 35 cents is about average."

But we don't. (not to mention LENR) So why build the Brightsource plant
here? 

 

Sorry to inform you that a few places in the USA do indeed pay this rate or
higher in the peak hours, even though the average is much lower. Peak hour
pricing is coming, and that is when solar works best.

 

Con Ed customers in New York pay a very high rate at peak NOW. They have
over 2 million residential who pay about 28 cents per kWhr, twice the
national average - but if they are large residential users, say on Long
Island- the rate is over 35 cents at peak hours. Needless to say, many
houses there have solar voltaic which also works out to about this cost, but
at least it will not be going up.

 

We simply cannot base important R&D decisions on the fact that coal power is
cheap in most places, since that pricing does not reflect the harm done by
pollution. 

 

MIT labels BrightSource as the World's smartest energy company for an
important reason - they are looking well beyond the short horizon where
cheap and dirty coal gets a free ride, and customers do not pay the real
cost for the damage done.

 

Jones

 

 

 

RE: [Vo]:BrightSource

[a.ashfield]

Jones wrote. "If you live in a country with little coal, hydro, oil or 
gas, 35 cents is about average."


But we don't. (not to mention LENR) So why build the Brightsource plant 
here?