[Vo]:LENr debate on scienceforum.net
http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/83658-low-energy-nuclear-reactions-cold-fusion-thread-hijack-split/ If serious people with good reference can participate
RE: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Increasing probability of Rossi being real upwards, to 35%
Nice recall Harry! From: H Veeder [mailto:hveeder...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 9:11 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Increasing probability of Rossi being real upwards, to 35% On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.commailto:hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:09 PM, John Berry berry.joh...@gmail.commailto:berry.joh...@gmail.com wrote: Axil, I think you need to add ether or aether to your spell check dictionary. Either or both, but not neither or you end up with 'either' ;) Or 'aeither'. :-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ3fjQa5Hls Harry
Re: [Vo]:LENr debate on scienceforum.net
Alain I think the link you provided has a lot of value. The reasons are many. There are many clarifications of what is the current status of LENR is in a nutshell. 1. There is no denial of that something happens when certain parameters are engaged some certain way, which produce more energy than what can be explained with current thermodynamic laws. 2. We do not know what is happening and where the science will need a modification. 3. We do not know if even the ecat is capable of producing a COP large enough that useful energy (I.E electricity) can be extracted for a long period of time - reliable. (Maybe changing soon - hope so.) 4. Scientists will discuss theoretical possibilities for a long time forward and an increasing number of scientists will be engaged if a viable commercial product is offered to the market. One day someone will provide an explanation and perhaps receive a Nobel prize or at least receive well deserved accolade. 5. Regardless of 4 above as soon as a commercial product is available we will see many competing products many with the Ecat concept and others with competing concepts. 6. It is clear to me that immediately we reach the critical point (commercialization), we will enter a period, which in its own way might be as important for the future development of LENR as is the reasons to find the theories behind it. The reasons for that i,s many interests are now going to collide. I do not think that any government conspiracy will be an issue for reasons I am happy to give later. However, I am sure that established businesses - particularly energy companies, which can see the of their business model - will be key players. I know that was a lot of words to reach a point obvious to most people here. My concern is that if we let the big and mighty and very resourceful energy companies take over they will work this entirely as it fits their agenda. Implementation will happen as is best for the change over of those large entities - as they are too big to fail they will allowed that by the government (see GM). I know that many people in Vortex wants to see greener earth and a better planet - soon. I think that it is most important to make sure there is an adequate business model to take care of the opportunity, which a successful LENR could provide. The problem is that the window of opportunity will be small. I will stop here with saying that in short that means to change to a more flexible format (business model) with very small footprint but high flexibility and speed. Henry Ford's influence gave us big and self sufficient companies with stability to survive without any concern about the outside factors. Now we cannot be away from outside factors even for a minute or when asleep (Cellphone) so we need a format that mirrors our time and the product of the future. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:08 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/83658-low-energy-nuclear-reactions-cold-fusion-thread-hijack-split/ If serious people with good reference can participate
RE: [Vo]:Higgs, spin, and an energy-sink
-Original Message- From: Terry Blanton Jones Beene wrote: Any electron getting close to the gateway will be tightly confined at temperatures close to absolute zero and the result could be that only the spinon is retained in 3-space, while the holon and orbiton become properties of another dimension. You can quantify the holon as the mass of the electron but can you quantify the orbiton? Terry, Here is some relevant information. http://www-als.lbl.gov/index.php/ring-leaders/234-first-direct-observation-of-spinons-and-holons.html Not sure if it can be interpreted as bolstering the case for the spinon being relevant to LENR. I wish it were possible to quantify how spin coupling would add thermal energy, since it seems that otherwise there could be some validity to the hypothesis.
Re: [Vo]:LENr debate on scienceforum.net
what is shocking me, is that activist or deniers, convinced or not, most people will again and again discuss whether the theory allow it, whether it is possible... No need to ask the permission to theory for LENR to exist, since it happens. nobody challenge the evidence... they talk of theory exhausting. 2014-06-11 19:39 GMT+02:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com: Alain I think the link you provided has a lot of value. The reasons are many. There are many clarifications of what is the current status of LENR is in a nutshell. 1. There is no denial of that something happens when certain parameters are engaged some certain way, which produce more energy than what can be explained with current thermodynamic laws. 2. We do not know what is happening and where the science will need a modification. 3. We do not know if even the ecat is capable of producing a COP large enough that useful energy (I.E electricity) can be extracted for a long period of time - reliable. (Maybe changing soon - hope so.) 4. Scientists will discuss theoretical possibilities for a long time forward and an increasing number of scientists will be engaged if a viable commercial product is offered to the market. One day someone will provide an explanation and perhaps receive a Nobel prize or at least receive well deserved accolade. 5. Regardless of 4 above as soon as a commercial product is available we will see many competing products many with the Ecat concept and others with competing concepts. 6. It is clear to me that immediately we reach the critical point (commercialization), we will enter a period, which in its own way might be as important for the future development of LENR as is the reasons to find the theories behind it. The reasons for that i,s many interests are now going to collide. I do not think that any government conspiracy will be an issue for reasons I am happy to give later. However, I am sure that established businesses - particularly energy companies, which can see the of their business model - will be key players. I know that was a lot of words to reach a point obvious to most people here. My concern is that if we let the big and mighty and very resourceful energy companies take over they will work this entirely as it fits their agenda. Implementation will happen as is best for the change over of those large entities - as they are too big to fail they will allowed that by the government (see GM). I know that many people in Vortex wants to see greener earth and a better planet - soon. I think that it is most important to make sure there is an adequate business model to take care of the opportunity, which a successful LENR could provide. The problem is that the window of opportunity will be small. I will stop here with saying that in short that means to change to a more flexible format (business model) with very small footprint but high flexibility and speed. Henry Ford's influence gave us big and self sufficient companies with stability to survive without any concern about the outside factors. Now we cannot be away from outside factors even for a minute or when asleep (Cellphone) so we need a format that mirrors our time and the product of the future. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:08 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/83658-low-energy-nuclear-reactions-cold-fusion-thread-hijack-split/ If serious people with good reference can participate
Re: [Vo]:LENr debate on scienceforum.net
To Alain, It is not shocking to me. The reason is that at my first job (in semiconductor business, we dealt with 125C, 2kV and 10kA so it was challenges.) I had a guy working for me building test equipment I designed.) I enthusiastically bought some Teflon, which I learnt about in a magazine and asked my guy to do some test jigs. His response was: It is impossible, in the forties we tried another new material and it just caused problems and now nobody even knows about it, let us try to work it out with Bakelite instead. . After that and me forcing him to use Teflon he did everything to show me that it was impossible. One day he came into me and said we triumph in his voice. Now I need to stop using that Teflon stuff as I have an article here saying that at 400C this material will give off flor and that is poisonous. You never know which temperature this can reach in the lace. Here, send it back. I was shocked and then I have expected that changes are impossible. The non-believers need to be convinced one by one. The good thing is that the series 2,4,8, . . works well relatively soon as non-believers becomes enthusiasts. The negative thing is when you cannot convince one person about the idea - then you will forever be criticized for that, which is a pity as if you never fail you have not tried hard enbough. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:06 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: what is shocking me, is that activist or deniers, convinced or not, most people will again and again discuss whether the theory allow it, whether it is possible... No need to ask the permission to theory for LENR to exist, since it happens. nobody challenge the evidence... they talk of theory exhausting. 2014-06-11 19:39 GMT+02:00 Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com: Alain I think the link you provided has a lot of value. The reasons are many. There are many clarifications of what is the current status of LENR is in a nutshell. 1. There is no denial of that something happens when certain parameters are engaged some certain way, which produce more energy than what can be explained with current thermodynamic laws. 2. We do not know what is happening and where the science will need a modification. 3. We do not know if even the ecat is capable of producing a COP large enough that useful energy (I.E electricity) can be extracted for a long period of time - reliable. (Maybe changing soon - hope so.) 4. Scientists will discuss theoretical possibilities for a long time forward and an increasing number of scientists will be engaged if a viable commercial product is offered to the market. One day someone will provide an explanation and perhaps receive a Nobel prize or at least receive well deserved accolade. 5. Regardless of 4 above as soon as a commercial product is available we will see many competing products many with the Ecat concept and others with competing concepts. 6. It is clear to me that immediately we reach the critical point (commercialization), we will enter a period, which in its own way might be as important for the future development of LENR as is the reasons to find the theories behind it. The reasons for that i,s many interests are now going to collide. I do not think that any government conspiracy will be an issue for reasons I am happy to give later. However, I am sure that established businesses - particularly energy companies, which can see the of their business model - will be key players. I know that was a lot of words to reach a point obvious to most people here. My concern is that if we let the big and mighty and very resourceful energy companies take over they will work this entirely as it fits their agenda. Implementation will happen as is best for the change over of those large entities - as they are too big to fail they will allowed that by the government (see GM). I know that many people in Vortex wants to see greener earth and a better planet - soon. I think that it is most important to make sure there is an adequate business model to take care of the opportunity, which a successful LENR could provide. The problem is that the window of opportunity will be small. I will stop here with saying that in short that means to change to a more flexible format (business model) with very small footprint but high flexibility and speed. Henry Ford's influence gave us big and self sufficient companies with stability to survive without any concern about the outside factors. Now we cannot be away from outside factors even for a minute or when asleep (Cellphone) so we need a format that mirrors our time and the product of the future. Best Regards , Lennart
Re: [Vo]:Higgs, spin, and an energy-sink
Jones-- Nice reference from Berkeley. The Nano Ni in the Rossi system may provide the necessary confinement of electrons to split them into spinons and holons. In the Ni system the low energy (.43 ev and 1.4 ev) may make distribution throughout the matrix possible with a host of split electrons participating in fractionation of the mass energy released in a Ni-H reaction. The energy would be distributed by re-establishment of whole electrons with spin and charge and resulting lattice vibrations. The ash of the reaction would be the new whole electrons along with the copper or whatever was formed from the Ni-H combination. Bob Sent from Windows Mail From: Jones Beene Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2014 9:54 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton Jones Beene wrote: Any electron getting close to the gateway will be tightly confined at temperatures close to absolute zero and the result could be that only the spinon is retained in 3-space, while the holon and orbiton become properties of another dimension. You can quantify the holon as the mass of the electron but can you quantify the orbiton? Terry, Here is some relevant information. http://www-als.lbl.gov/index.php/ring-leaders/234-first-direct-observation-of-spinons-and-holons.html Not sure if it can be interpreted as bolstering the case for the spinon being relevant to LENR. I wish it were possible to quantify how spin coupling would add thermal energy, since it seems that otherwise there could be some validity to the hypothesis.
Re: [Vo]:eCat Portfolio
An interesting exchange I had on the CYPW Cycone Power message boards that seems appropriate for this thread. http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d - Reply to hellokevin and CYPW pumping http://finance.yahoo.com/mbview/threadview/;_ylt=AhE.d36rr0vMg7WwEjjGHureAohG;_ylu=X3oDMTB2NnNuZWNlBHBvcwM0OARzZWMDTWVkaWFNc2dCb2FyZHNYSFJVbHQ-;_ylg=X3oDMTBhYWM1a2sxBGxhbmcDZW4tVVM-;_ylv=3?bn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996dtid=1402329132593-d6511fc8-9206-4b6e-ade3-faa58c3484e4 by buddywhazhizname http://finance.yahoo.com/mbview/userview/;_ylt=AjR1y9vCDMOukz3anNfyvC_eAohG;_ylu=X3oDMTB2cGQ1ajNqBHBvcwM0OQRzZWMDTWVkaWFNc2dCb2FyZHNYSFJVbHQ-;_ylg=X3oDMTBhYWM1a2sxBGxhbmcDZW4tVVM-;_ylv=3?u=buddywhazhiznamebn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996dlv=e •Jun 9, 2014 11:52 AM *hellokevin@* http://finance.yahoo.com/mbview/userview/?u=helloke...@sbcglobal.netbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d •a second agoRemove http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d# - *0*users liked this posts http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d#tu_6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d_1402329132593-d6511fc8-9206-4b6e-ade3-faa58c3484e4_2g2b3g2b3g-76b673b6-b107-4dc2-9bfd-b7b3d8a042b6users disliked this posts http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d#td_6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d_1402329132593-d6511fc8-9206-4b6e-ade3-faa58c3484e4_2g2b3g2b3g-76b673b6-b107-4dc2-9bfd-b7b3d8a042b6 *0* - Reply http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d# Ferinstance, google V0Z2Gzg7o84 for a video of the Voith Steamtrac waste heat system. It looks like they've just formed a company called SteamDrive de to sell them. No One Planet One Engine BS. Just a system proven to work and for sale. You can also buy steam engine waste heat recovery systems from 5 to 120 kW from Conpower de complete with a factory warranty. And the BMW Turbosteamer protoype car uses a piston steam engine run on waste heat. Honda has also shown a working prototype of a similar system. The DOE SuperTruck program has Cummins, Detroit Diesel and Navistar, plus Volvo Trucks and Renault Trucks in Europe, each demonstrating working waste heat recovery systems on diesel engines. A French company, Exoès, is making piston steam engines for waste heat recovery from car engine exhaust, as is Bosch in Germany. ***Some of this strikes me as reasonably good information for those who would seek to invest in LENR in one way or another, so I'll be stealing it and reposting it elsewhere. - Reply to hellokevin and CYPW pumping http://finance.yahoo.com/mbview/threadview/;_ylt=AhE.d36rr0vMg7WwEjjGHureAohG;_ylu=X3oDMTB2NnNuZWNlBHBvcwM0OARzZWMDTWVkaWFNc2dCb2FyZHNYSFJVbHQ-;_ylg=X3oDMTBhYWM1a2sxBGxhbmcDZW4tVVM-;_ylv=3?bn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996dtid=1402329132593-d6511fc8-9206-4b6e-ade3-faa58c3484e4 by buddywhazhizname http://finance.yahoo.com/mbview/userview/;_ylt=AjR1y9vCDMOukz3anNfyvC_eAohG;_ylu=X3oDMTB2cGQ1ajNqBHBvcwM0OQRzZWMDTWVkaWFNc2dCb2FyZHNYSFJVbHQ-;_ylg=X3oDMTBhYWM1a2sxBGxhbmcDZW4tVVM-;_ylv=3?u=buddywhazhiznamebn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996dlv=e •Jun 9, 2014 11:52 AM *hellokevin@* http://finance.yahoo.com/mbview/userview/?u=helloke...@sbcglobal.netbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996da second agoRemove http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d# - *0*users liked this posts http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d#tu_6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d_1402329132593-d6511fc8-9206-4b6e-ade3-faa58c3484e4_2g2b3g2b2g-51b911a2-763b-482c-b0e3-a3f1b02577aausers disliked this posts http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d#td_6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d_1402329132593-d6511fc8-9206-4b6e-ade3-faa58c3484e4_2g2b3g2b2g-51b911a2-763b-482c-b0e3-a3f1b02577aa *0* - Reply http://finance.yahoo.com/mb/forumview/?v=mbn=6ed54729-7ab6-30d3-94f3-a20d6f37996d# KO: Such a company with an infusion of cash like, say, $5Billion, would turn around utterly quick. They've been starved of development funds. Buddyboy: kevin, kevin, kevin, Cyclone Power has, according to the latest 10Q, a deficit since inception of $22.1 million attributable to actual operating losses. They've done this trying to build a steam engine that works. ***Your statement doesn't even address my contention. In fact, it actually reinforces what I said. KO: It's harder to do than it looks. Just like the internal combustion engine, which took decades to perfect. Buddyboy : You really should learn more about the
Re: [Vo]:LENr debate on scienceforum.net
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 1:08 AM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/83658-low-energy-nuclear-reactions-cold-fusion-thread-hijack-split/ If serious people with good reference can participate Note the hijack in the original URL ( http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/83658-low-energy-nuclear-reactions-cold-fusion-thread-hijack-split/). This is well-intentioned trolling by a LENR advocate, and he gets his facts muddled. The others are right in being irritated by the huge message, the appeal to authority and the scienscy-sounding jargon, although they're not very pleasant in how they express objections. I don't think anyone advances serious consideration of LENR by posting huge messages to unsympathetic forums. (Think of how well something is received here when someone trolls.) Eric
Re: [Vo]:LENr debate on scienceforum.net
Here is some theory for them... The hot fusion guys can’t understand how the cold fusion guys can overcome the coulomb barrier so easily. The key is Strongly Correlated Material, a condensed matter physics term used in type II superconductivity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strongly_correlated_material In hot fusion, just a few subatomic particles are used in a vain attempt overcome the coulomb barrier through brut force high energy collision. In LENR, billions of trillions of electrons who are all working together using quantum mechanics to overcome the coulomb barrier. The proof of this reality is the formation of cooper pairs of electrons in Type II superconductivity. In this process this huge ensemble of electrons become strong enough to overcome the coulomb barrier between the fermions in a cooper pair. In type II superconductors, this process is called fractionalization, another condence physics term. When a large group of electrons are packed so tightly together by the arrangement of atoms in the superconductor material (Mott insulator), in order for one to move one beyond another, they must tunnel to where they are forced to go. And quantum tunneling is the only thing that they can do in such a tightly confined situation. The need to tunnel negates charge repulsion. Charge is negated by the rigid confinement of the group of electrons. These packed fermions only possess spin and are now called spinons. see http://phys.org/news200828132.html In LENR+ systems, one dimensional nano wire is what causes electon fractionalization. Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionalization http://arxiv.org/abs/0911.1782 Fractionalization in Superconductor Josephson Junction Arrays Hinged by Quantum Spin Hall edges Abstract In this paper we study a novel superconductor-ferromagnet-superconductor (SC-FM-SC) Josephson junction array deposited on top of a two-dimensional quantum spin Hall (QSH) insulator. The existence of Majorana bound states at the interface between SC and FM gives rise to charge-e tunneling, in addition to the usual charge-2e Cooper pair tunneling, between neighboring superconductor islands. Moreover, because Majorana fermions encode the information of charge number parity, an exact Z_2 gauge structure naturally emerges and leads to many new insulating phases, including a deconfined phase where electrons fractionalize into charge-e bosons and topological defects. A new superconductor-insulator transition has also been found. The source of all these electrons is dipole motion in the 5 micron micro-particle that Rossi invented. This particle is the key to LENR and is sized to be resonant with the black body 400C operating temperature of the reactor. The dipole vibration caused by the ambient temperature of the reactor produces maximum dipole electron oscillation in the terahertz range that constrain the electron current to the surface of the micro particle through the skin effect. This electron motion is an alternating current that flows back and forth across the micro-particle to polarize charge. But these micro particles are also coated with billions of nanowires. The nanowire provides a 1 dimensional superconducting path for the dipole current to accumulate at the tip of each and every nanowire. This super current accumulates electrons at the nanowire tips in the fractional mega amp range. Nanowire coating on the surface of the micro-particle is a critical power concentration mechanism and is all important. This nanowire power concentration is what makes LENR+ go. Why does Surface plasmon polaritons (SPP) have the potential for over unity? The extreme curvature at the tips of nanowire produces a vortex of SPPs to develop when heat photons become entangled with these electrons through Fano resonance and whispering gallery wave effects. The boson nature of the SPP makes possible extreme concentration of an EMF soliton because the Pauli exclusion principle no longer applies to them. This soliton produces an huge anapole magnetic field that gets strong enough to produce pions through vacuum breakdown. These magnetically catalyzed pions disrupt nuclear structure of the hydrogen. Hydrogen Rydberg matter is attracted to these nanowire tips that further increase the EMF power application because of the extreme curvature related to the very small size of these nanowire tips. Larger nanoparticles also amplify the EMF concentration of the vortex formed at and around the tips of the wire in a zero loss dark mode energy transfer mechanism. There is a positive feedback mechanism that takes the gamma energy from the nuclear fusion of hydrogen present in the Rydberg crystals and adds that to the energy content of the vortex based soliton at the tips of the nanowire using the strong coupling of the magnetic force fields. This optical nano-cavity down shifts this gamma energy into the extreme ultraviolet range and through power reincorporation makes the amplitude of the SPP
Re: [Vo]:LENr debate on scienceforum.net
On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 8:11 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think anyone advances serious consideration of LENR by posting huge messages to unsympathetic forums. (Think of how well something is received here when someone trolls. ***Hindsight is 20/20. Someone with a scientific bent might log onto a scienceforums.net discussion about a fascinating scientific discussion around Metallic Hydrides, Anomalous Heat, Calorimetry, and the scientific method. Such a person might not be aware of the unsympathetic nature of the forum because it is, after all, a science forum. I went through a similar process on Free Republic, where I had trouble believing such intelligent people could be such strong asshole*bandwagon joiners. The difference is in the level of hypocrisy the founders are willing to engage in. For instance, right here on Vortex there are some very straightforward opening remarks about how hyperskepticism is unwelcome and sneering is grounds for removal. But on what basis does a scientific forum enforce against scientific topics it is unsympathetic towards? On controversial topics it would be less hypocritical to just allow the fur to fly but enforce simple rules such as are mentioned by the moderator -- no classic logical fallacies, that kind of thing. Moderator: Please also note that the use of logical fallacy is against forum rules, so keep the appeal to authority out of it. Of course, when the moderators couldn't pick a blue logical fallacy out of a field of ldaisies when it comes to one side, then the hypocrisy factor is what is coming into play.
