RE: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

Jurg and Jones and others—

Jurg makes a good point regarding a strong field trigger for the reaction.  The 
strong field may be electric or magnetic IMHO.

The allowable energies and positions in of particles described in such a system 
by a QM wave function will be changed, and the allowable combinations of  such 
parameters reduced.

All the various particles that may be involved in the suggested LENR reaction 
that have a magnetic moment (dipole, quadrupole, octupole etc.) will align to 
some degree with the instanteous magnetic field, including one  associated with 
a passing photon of a laser beam.  If the  photons wave front is large enough 
and intense enough, many particles may resonate and exchange spin energy 
between themselves.

Some of the particles will increase their spin energy (for example. atoms with 
an electron structure) and others will decrease their spin energy (for example, 
various nuclear structures, properly aligned with magnetic moments of their 
constituent particles in phase.

The key to the reaction is having enough electronic states in atoms to accept a 
large amount of energy donated by one or more nuclei during the resonant cycle.

Before the reaction the order of the system is relatively  high (low entropy) 
and after the reaction the order of the system  is reduced with a resulting 
increase of entropy.
Order in this example is directly related to the total energy of the system and 
its homogeneity in  terms of energy/unit volume.

The entropy increase is consistent with the 2nd Law of thermodynamics  for a 
reaction of an entangled (coherent) quantum system.

Knowing the stable or quasi stable spin energies of various particles in a 
coherent system, including their resonant parameters in an ambient magnetic 
field is the job of LENR engineers.

I think Jurg is working on such knowing for simple systems.  The Brookhaven 
Laboratory in New York keeps a data base for many nuclear species of the 
isomeric energy states and respective spin states.  I believe it is available 
to the public.  I will research this question and try to get a good link to the 
data base.

Bob Cook



From: Jürg Wyttenbach
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 4:21 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?


On 15.06.2020 16:03, Chris Zell wrote:
> I suspect that the Papp engine involves a secret hiding in plain sight.

Papp in fact used a mixture of noble gases like Ag + Kr,Xe- Both are
very efficient in support of LENR reactions. You just need to add little
Deuterium, a rusty Fe2O3 side for the catalytic production of D*and a
mechanism (strong field) , to trigger the reaction.


Unluckily he was very selfish as most others are too in the LENR
business. He took everything with him and now power heaven... But I
think that a reproduction is just a matter of money.


J.W.



--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr. 22
8910 Affoltern am Albis

+41 44 760 14 18
+41 79 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:51 PM Terry Blanton  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:46 PM Robin 
> wrote:
>
>> So if an insult was intended, none taken. :)
>>
>
> No, Donk was my favorite character in "Crocodile Dundee".  Reminded me of
> my uncle.
>

I joined this list over 2 decades ago at the encouragement of Chris
Tinsley, who I met on the MUFON forum of CompuServe where I was a moderator
and investigator for the Mutual UFO Network.  He encouraged me to join;
whereby, I could ask questions of Hal Puthoff directly since he
participated on Vortex at the time.  Chris also introduced me to Eugene
Mallove, another UFO fan; although, a bit more reserved than Chris.

Dr. Puthoff was very approachable and even open to answering questions
about his involvement in Remote Viewing research among other things.
Little did I know (not a reference to Scott :) that Chris got me here
because I was skeptical of Cold Fusion and I learned the truth on the forum.

Back then, the forum was fun with literally hundred of posts per week and a
lot of jovial posts along with the science.

So, no harm intended Robin.  It's just that I've wasted a lot of time on
Randell Mills while the power industry has wasted a lot of money.  Pity
that kind of money did not go to Fleischmann and Pons back in the day.
But, hey, it was not meant to be.

Cheers!

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 11:46 PM Robin 
wrote:

> So if an insult was intended, none taken. :)
>

No, Donk was my favorite character in "Crocodile Dundee".  Reminded me of
my uncle.

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Robin]

In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 23:04:48 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Sorry, Donk.  

"donk" is Dutch for a low hill or rise in the ground. The Spaan means Spanish. 
"van" is "from".

So if an insult was intended, none taken. :)

>Just my sick, cynical humor that no one gets.  I've been
>waiting decades on 3 things, a cold fusion generator, any working
>commercial device from Randell and aliens to land on the White House lawn.

Me too. :) However I doubt aliens would land on the Whitehouse lawn, they know 
they would be shot down. Also, why should
they show favoritism by singling out the USA for the honor?
If I were in their shoes, I would probably choose Switzerland, which has an 
enviable record of staying out of wars.
(Besides being neutral is much more profitable. ;)
[snip]

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 10:56 PM Robin 
wrote:
>
> In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:32:13 -0400:
> Hi Terry,
> [snip]
> >Quick, name 5 compounds that are *not* hydrino catalysts.  Are you sure?
> > ?
> I can't be sure of any of them, but what does that prove?

Sorry, Donk.  Just my sick, cynical humor that no one gets.  I've been
waiting decades on 3 things, a cold fusion generator, any working
commercial device from Randell and aliens to land on the White House lawn.

Honestly, I've been waiting longer on the aliens; but, I'm beginning to
think THAT might actually HAPPEN before I die.

Cheers!

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Robin]

In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 19:32:13 -0400:
Hi Terry,
[snip]
>Quick, name 5 compounds that are *not* hydrino catalysts.  Are you sure?
> ?
I can't be sure of any of them, but what does that prove?

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Terry Blanton]

On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 5:59 PM Robin 
wrote:

> In reply to  Michael Foster's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:11:40 +
> (UTC):
> Hi,
>
> When Hydrogen and Chlorine burn, they react in a series of reactions like
> this:-
>
> Cl + H2 -> HCl + H
> H + CL2 -> HCl + Cl
>
> Both H & Cl are free radicals.
>
> Both steps produce HCl molecules, and the first step produces copious
> amounts of H atoms. According to Mills, HCl can be
> a catalyst.
>

Quick, name 5 compounds that are *not* hydrino catalysts.  Are you sure?
 


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Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Robin]

In reply to  Michael Foster's message of Tue, 16 Jun 2020 21:11:40 + (UTC):
Hi,

When Hydrogen and Chlorine burn, they react in a series of reactions like this:-

Cl + H2 -> HCl + H
H + CL2 -> HCl + Cl

Both H & Cl are free radicals.

Both steps produce HCl molecules, and the first step produces copious amounts 
of H atoms. According to Mills, HCl can be
a catalyst. So now you have the perfect combination of gaseous fuel and 
catalyst. The energy released from the Hydrino
reaction is more than enough to split an additional H2 or Cl2 molecule to 
compensate for the lost H atom (losing an H
atom breaks that particular chain).
The UV serves to split the first few molecules, thus initiating the chain 
reactions.

>A couple of observations. If you are worried about the mechanical resonance of 
>this reaction, don't use an engine with a crankshaft. Instead, just have a 
>spring loaded piston with an adjustable tension to match the resonance of the 
>reaction. Energy could then be extracted by electromagnetic means.
>
>The Papp engine, though, seems to have relied on the UV triggered reaction 
>between gaseous hydrogen and chlorine. The participation of the noble gases 
>may have been the formation of numerous excimers with the chlorine. Maybe Papp 
>didn't really know, assuming he wasn't a total fraud, which of these noble 
>gasses was reacting, so he just more or less threw in the the kitchen sink. Or 
>maybe he was so secretive he was trying to hide which gas did the trick.
>
>The UV triggered reaction between hydrogen and chlorine might OU itself.  When 
>I was a very mischievous boy, I used to make what I called sunlight bombs by 
>filling glass bottles with a hydrogen and chlorine mixture. Hydrogen was made 
>by electrolysis. Chlorine was generated by mixing Clorox and Sani-Flush which 
>used to be sodium bisulfate.  I put one of these outside at night expecting 
>that the rising sun would set it off. It didn't happen. I discovered by 
>further reading that the UV exposure had to be sudden. So with my next attempt 
>I covered the bottle with a can attached to a string. When yanking the can off 
>the bottle there would be an unexpectedly huge explosion. This observation, 
>made more than 60 years ago, is purely subjective; but I can only say that the 
>explosion was a lot bigger than the chemical reaction warranted.  I am lucky 
>that I escaped childhood with all my fingers and both eyes.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, June 13, 2020, 06:30:40 PM UTC, Jones Beene 
>  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
> presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a 
> denser form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine 
> configuration. This concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo 
> oxidizer." Argon is not exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and 
> other Column eight atoms (Vlll on the periodic table).
>
>AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
>has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
>argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
>engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
>of those is precisely the same.
>
>According to Wiki, "argonium" is the name for argon hydride which is a (1+) 
>ion species formed by combining a proton with argon into a short-lived 
>molecule (2+ millisecond) life - which has a
>surprising strong binding energy. Argonium is actually found to be relatively 
>common in
> interstellar space, despite this short lifetime.
>
>In a piston engine a short lifetime could actually be put to good use if an 
>asymmetry exists due to the Mills effect. It would act as a thermal sink.
>
>Imagine a closed cycle piston engine which recirculates the two gases H2 ans 
>Ar in such a way that under compression (at TDC) the two are combined on a 
>catalyst surface (such as nickel, palladium, iridium etc) allowing for net 
>energy to be freed as UV photons, which gain would be the result of some 
>combination of the ion binding energy along with a redundant orbital photon 
>emission less the ionization loss - as described by Mills, Holmlid etc.
>In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples of 27.2 
>eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single redundant hydrogen 
>orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net gain would exist - even if 
>the protons are lost after a single pass and must be continually replace by 
>electrolysis of water.

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Jones Beene]

 Interesting info, Michael
Another wrinkle to add in the mix (for a working method of collecting energy 
from dense hydrogen in a mechanical device) is the apparent superconductivity 
of protons when absorbed into a metal matrix even at elevated temperatures. 

Since superconductors are strongly diamagnetic (thousands of times more so than 
bismuth) this property offers a way to ensure directional movement of 
reactants. 

More on this later.

Michael Foster wrote:  
 A couple of observations. If you are worried about the mechanical resonance of 
this reaction, don't use an engine with a crankshaft. Instead, just have a 
spring loaded piston with an adjustable tension to match the resonance of the 
reaction. Energy could then be extracted by electromagnetic means.

The Papp engine, though, seems to have relied on the UV triggered reaction 
between gaseous hydrogen and chlorine. The participation of the noble gases may 
have been the formation of numerous excimers with the chlorine. Maybe Papp 
didn't really know, assuming he wasn't a total fraud, which of these noble 
gasses was reacting, so he just more or less threw in the the kitchen sink. Or 
maybe he was so secretive he was trying to hide which gas did the trick.

The UV triggered reaction between hydrogen and chlorine might OU itself.  When 
I was a very mischievous boy, I used to make what I called sunlight bombs by 
filling glass bottles with a hydrogen and chlorine mixture. Hydrogen was made 
by electrolysis. Chlorine was generated by mixing Clorox and Sani-Flush which 
used to be sodium bisulfate.  I put one of these outside at night expecting 
that the rising sun would set it off. It didn't happen. I discovered by further 
reading that the UV exposure had to be sudden. So with my next attempt I 
covered the bottle with a can attached to a string. When yanking the can off 
the bottle there would be an unexpectedly huge explosion. This observation, 
made more than 60 years ago, is purely subjective; but I can only say that the 
explosion was a lot bigger than the chemical reaction warranted.  I am lucky 
that I escaped childhood with all my fingers and both eyes.

On Saturday, June 13, Jones Beene wrote:

An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a denser 
form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine configuration. This 
concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo oxidizer." Argon is not 
exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and other Column eight atoms (Vlll 
on the periodic table).

AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
of those is precisely the same.

According to Wiki, "argonium" is the name for argon hydride which is a (1+) ion 
species formed by combining a proton with argon into a short-lived molecule (2+ 
millisecond) life - which has a
surprising strong binding energy. Argonium is actually found to be relatively 
common in
 interstellar space, despite this short lifetime.

In a piston engine a short lifetime could actually be put to good use if an 
asymmetry exists due to the Mills effect. It would act as a thermal sink.

Imagine a closed cycle piston engine which recirculates the two gases H2 ans Ar 
in such a way that under compression (at TDC) the two are combined on a 
catalyst surface (such as nickel, palladium, iridium etc) allowing for net 
energy to be freed as UV photons, which gain would be the result of some 
combination of the ion binding energy along with a redundant orbital photon 
emission less the ionization loss - as described by Mills, Holmlid etc.
In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples of 27.2 
eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single redundant hydrogen 
orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net gain would exist - even if 
the protons are lost after a single pass and must be continually replace by 
electrolysis of water.

  

Re: [Vo]:"Burning"hydrogen with argon ?

[Michael Foster]

A couple of observations. If you are worried about the mechanical resonance of 
this reaction, don't use an engine with a crankshaft. Instead, just have a 
spring loaded piston with an adjustable tension to match the resonance of the 
reaction. Energy could then be extracted by electromagnetic means.

The Papp engine, though, seems to have relied on the UV triggered reaction 
between gaseous hydrogen and chlorine. The participation of the noble gases may 
have been the formation of numerous excimers with the chlorine. Maybe Papp 
didn't really know, assuming he wasn't a total fraud, which of these noble 
gasses was reacting, so he just more or less threw in the the kitchen sink. Or 
maybe he was so secretive he was trying to hide which gas did the trick.

The UV triggered reaction between hydrogen and chlorine might OU itself.  When 
I was a very mischievous boy, I used to make what I called sunlight bombs by 
filling glass bottles with a hydrogen and chlorine mixture. Hydrogen was made 
by electrolysis. Chlorine was generated by mixing Clorox and Sani-Flush which 
used to be sodium bisulfate.  I put one of these outside at night expecting 
that the rising sun would set it off. It didn't happen. I discovered by further 
reading that the UV exposure had to be sudden. So with my next attempt I 
covered the bottle with a can attached to a string. When yanking the can off 
the bottle there would be an unexpectedly huge explosion. This observation, 
made more than 60 years ago, is purely subjective; but I can only say that the 
explosion was a lot bigger than the chemical reaction warranted.  I am lucky 
that I escaped childhood with all my fingers and both eyes.








 On Saturday, June 13, 2020, 06:30:40 PM UTC, Jones Beene  
wrote:





 An interesting proposition for an advanced transportation fuel would be 
presented to us - IF (big if) hydrogen can be routinely converted into a denser 
form on a catalyst, and then expanded in a piston engine configuration. This 
concept would relate to using argon as a "pseudo oxidizer." Argon is not 
exactly "inert" to the same extent as helium and other Column eight atoms (Vlll 
on the periodic table).

AFAIK this exact concept, when transposed into a piston engine configuration, 
has never been explored... or has it? There is the Papp engine, which used 
argon and other inert gases but did not use hydrogen; and there is the Laumann 
engine which included oxygen with argon and no surface catalyst -- but neither 
of those is precisely the same.

According to Wiki, "argonium" is the name for argon hydride which is a (1+) ion 
species formed by combining a proton with argon into a short-lived molecule (2+ 
millisecond) life - which has a
surprising strong binding energy. Argonium is actually found to be relatively 
common in
 interstellar space, despite this short lifetime.

In a piston engine a short lifetime could actually be put to good use if an 
asymmetry exists due to the Mills effect. It would act as a thermal sink.

Imagine a closed cycle piston engine which recirculates the two gases H2 ans Ar 
in such a way that under compression (at TDC) the two are combined on a 
catalyst surface (such as nickel, palladium, iridium etc) allowing for net 
energy to be freed as UV photons, which gain would be the result of some 
combination of the ion binding energy along with a redundant orbital photon 
emission less the ionization loss - as described by Mills, Holmlid etc.
In Mills theory this emission would be related minimally to multiples of 27.2 
eV so even if the reaction goes no further that a single redundant hydrogen 
orbital reduction, an attractive scenario for net gain would exist - even if 
the protons are lost after a single pass and must be continually replace by 
electrolysis of water.