Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
does anyone have analyses the color code they show on Wikipedia? 2014-11-05 7:55 GMT+01:00 Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com: On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: From the other pictures, it is pretty clear that Rossi is using a sheathed k-type thermocouple with the hotCat. Because this thermocouple is not rated to operate at the temperatures that the reactor convection tube was supposedly operating, it appears that Rossi had placed (by design) the thermocouple in a cooler section of the hotCat (the end for example) ... I'm curious what details distinguish a k-type thermocouple visually from a b-type thermocouple, which are identifiable in a photograph. (I note that Wikipedia says that a k-type thermocouple can be used up to 1350 C [1].) Eric [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple#Type_K
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
The common ANSI color code for K-type is yellow. The wire jacket is yellow (must be the same as the thermocouple wire because the lead wire is thermocouple wire) and the connector on the sheathed thermocouple is yellow. There is not really an ANSI color code for B-type, but I think most common is gray. B-type uses platinum for one of the wires, making it quite expensive. Note the long lead lengths of the wires in the photo. On Tue, Nov 4, 2014 at 11:55 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: From the other pictures, it is pretty clear that Rossi is using a sheathed k-type thermocouple with the hotCat. Because this thermocouple is not rated to operate at the temperatures that the reactor convection tube was supposedly operating, it appears that Rossi had placed (by design) the thermocouple in a cooler section of the hotCat (the end for example) ... I'm curious what details distinguish a k-type thermocouple visually from a b-type thermocouple, which are identifiable in a photograph. (I note that Wikipedia says that a k-type thermocouple can be used up to 1350 C [1].) Eric [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple#Type_K
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 5:15 PM, Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com wrote: From the other pictures, it is pretty clear that Rossi is using a sheathed k-type thermocouple with the hotCat. Because this thermocouple is not rated to operate at the temperatures that the reactor convection tube was supposedly operating, it appears that Rossi had placed (by design) the thermocouple in a cooler section of the hotCat (the end for example) ... I'm curious what details distinguish a k-type thermocouple visually from a b-type thermocouple, which are identifiable in a photograph. (I note that Wikipedia says that a k-type thermocouple can be used up to 1350 C [1].) Eric [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocouple#Type_K
[Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
Bob Greenyer of MFMP just posted this image of Rossi's lab with 3 hotCats being tested and I put it on my Google drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Pc25a4cOM2U3FIWmpCMnlZaFE/view?usp=sharing A wealth of information can be gleaned from this: - Rossi is testing 3 hotCats simultaneously. - Each hotCat is connected with 2-wires only - Each IS CONNECTED SINGLE PHASE! This probably means that the hotCat only relies on heat-up, not magnetic field interaction - certainly not rotating field interaction. - The gray box has 3 thermocouple connections with one going to each hotCat - The gray box controller is controlling the energy to all 3 hotCats via the red 3-phase SCR controller in such a way as to control the temperature of each hotCat independently. - This gray box controller is designed to control each hotCat solely based on 1 temperature measurement per hotCat. The temperature controllers mounted on the gray box are probably each controlling the setpoint of each hotCat (I.E. they are not being used just as temperature meters). A microcontroller in the gray box may read each meter (RS232) and then sets the SCR angle for that phase to control the power to each hotCat. - The red SCR box may be configured for delta SCR configuration for easy control of the individual hotCats, in which case a microprocessor would not be needed. Each of the little PID temperature controller panel meters could directly control the corresponding SCR in the delta phase configuration. Even if the red box had y-configured SCRs, they probably could be controlled with the panel temperature controllers with simple logic. - Replication need not use a 3-phase heater coil inside the hotCat because there is no need to simulate an industrial environment. Replication just got easier. Basically each hotCat is just a small temperature regulated mini-tube furnace. It would be possible to design the replica to operate on ordinary US 120VAC, even with a 15A outlet using a triac dimmer with an inexpensive PID temperature controller from eBay. Bob Higgins
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
This is the book on his table: http://www.amazon.com/The-Particle-End-Universe-Higgs/dp/0525953590 -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
From: Bob Higgins rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 6:49:22 AM From http://www.ecat-thenewfire.com/blog/rossi-three-hot-cats-row/ The white sphere at the left is a neutron detector.
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
Ha! Now why would they build a three phase test unit if they did not need the magic of three phase? Because it automatically keeps your load balanced. Just reinforces my point that what they tested is a production product for an industrial environment. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone
RE: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
From: Bob Higgins A wealth of information can be gleaned from this… More likely - a wealth of disinformation. First and foremost –despite the criticism of thermometry in the first and second iterations – he seems to persist with a technique which none of his critics will find acceptable, if this is not a further charade. There is little valid rationale for avoiding flow calorimetry – other than that the results would be embarrassing. His supporters then argue that he doesn’t care about the critics. He has no interest in what others think. OK. Then why the hell release anything at all? This photo changes nothing in the mind of critics and it can only have one use. The only possible use which I can see is to further confuse anyone who might be trying to replicate the Lugano report. Rossi may have sent this specifically to Greenyer - in order to throw MFMP into further disarray. For months Rossi has been saying that his attention has shifted away from the HT version and to the so-called megawatt unit which is low temperature. The only scenario for this photo release - which makes any sense is that Rossi had noticed what MFMP was planning to do with the “dummy” - and thought that they were getting too close to the truth, so he wants to lead them astray now - if he can.
RE: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
Bob, Nice analysis. The eCats are configured in star or triangle. I think from what analysed is that it is a star with a free neutral. This could be also disinformation. This configuration might have never worked at all and be published one year later to lead the replicator in the wrong direction. Arnaud _ From: Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com] Sent: lundi 3 novembre 2014 15:49 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information Bob Greenyer of MFMP just posted this image of Rossi's lab with 3 hotCats being tested and I put it on my Google drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Pc25a4cOM2U3FIWmpCMnlZaFE/view?usp=sharin g A wealth of information can be gleaned from this: * Rossi is testing 3 hotCats simultaneously. * Each hotCat is connected with 2-wires only - Each IS CONNECTED SINGLE PHASE! This probably means that the hotCat only relies on heat-up, not magnetic field interaction - certainly not rotating field interaction. * The gray box has 3 thermocouple connections with one going to each hotCat * The gray box controller is controlling the energy to all 3 hotCats via the red 3-phase SCR controller in such a way as to control the temperature of each hotCat independently. * This gray box controller is designed to control each hotCat solely based on 1 temperature measurement per hotCat. The temperature controllers mounted on the gray box are probably each controlling the setpoint of each hotCat (I.E. they are not being used just as temperature meters). A microcontroller in the gray box may read each meter (RS232) and then sets the SCR angle for that phase to control the power to each hotCat. * The red SCR box may be configured for delta SCR configuration for easy control of the individual hotCats, in which case a microprocessor would not be needed. Each of the little PID temperature controller panel meters could directly control the corresponding SCR in the delta phase configuration. Even if the red box had y-configured SCRs, they probably could be controlled with the panel temperature controllers with simple logic. * Replication need not use a 3-phase heater coil inside the hotCat because there is no need to simulate an industrial environment. Replication just got easier. Basically each hotCat is just a small temperature regulated mini-tube furnace. It would be possible to design the replica to operate on ordinary US 120VAC, even with a 15A outlet using a triac dimmer with an inexpensive PID temperature controller from eBay. Bob Higgins
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
Jones, you're really going of the wall here. The IR literature recently posted here shows that IR calorimetry CAN give temperatures with 2% accuracy. But more importantly, once calibrated the method is a very quick AND accurate way of looking at differences, which is clearly what Rossi is doing here. It may not be scientifically satisfying, but it's what engineers do. (Not to mention that Rossi has access to the internal thermocouple, so he's now probably more interested in the distribution of heat and how to get it out of the tube.) It's also clear from the Greenyer video that the hotcats are intended to be used as plug-in heater elements for commercial heaters, operating in the 1000C+ range. Rossi didn't release this picture -- it was taken during an interview by Vessey (Vessela Nikolova) for his book - OVER A YEAR AGO. The book has just been released -- so the release of the photo now is promo for the book, not for Rossi or to mislead the MFMP. Since then IH have (apparently) sold a 1MW warm-cat to a commercial customer, so it's no surprise that Rossi is currently spending most of his time on that. (And he posted just today that he was having trouble with the gas-cat, but that he'd thought of a way round it. And I don't think he's given up on electric generation either). - Original Message - From: Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 9:31:56 AM A wealth of information can be gleaned from this … More likely - a wealth of disinformation. First and foremost –despite the criticism of thermometry in the first and second iterations – he seems to persist with a technique which none of his critics will find acceptable, if this is not a further charade. There is little valid rationale for avoiding flow calorimetry – other than that the results would be embarrassing. His supporters then argue that he doesn’t care about the critics. He has no interest in what others think. OK. Then why the hell release anything at all? This photo changes nothing in the mind of critics and it can only have one use. The only possible use which I can see is to further confuse anyone who might be trying to replicate the Lugano report. Rossi may have sent this specifically to Greenyer - in order to throw MFMP into further disarray. For months Rossi has been saying that his attention has shifted away from the HT version and to the so-called megawatt unit which is low temperature. The only scenario for this photo release - which makes any sense is that Rossi had noticed what MFMP was planning to do with the “dummy” - and thought that they were getting too close to the truth, so he wants to lead them astray now - if he can.
RE: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
From: Alan Fletcher The IR literature recently posted here shows that IR calorimetry CAN give temperatures with 2% accuracy. In principle yes – BUT Alan, you know very well that this assumes a blackbody radiator – and the Williamson analysis and the spokesperson’s direct talks to Brian Ahern made it clear that this is NOT A BLACKBODY radiator - and the results could be way off. Thus the Lugano report is meaningless without confirmation from a calibrated thermocouple. AF - (Not to mention that Rossi has access to the internal thermocouple, so he's now probably more interested in the distribution of heat and how to get it out of the tube.) Well that is the very crux of the issue, isn’t it? Failure to do the obvious. The Lugano team should have used a platinum thermocouple and there would be not dispute, if the readings matched. Their incompetence is staggering. Jones
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
an idea to check from the surprising claim in the report that one of the wire effective current was abo the sum of the (equals) two others... after some rethinking, this imply all current are synchronous... this is a monophase devices, with simply 2 coils... what for ? only speculation that it may just make some thermal oscillations from left to right, or center to extremities, or else stabilize center and extremities... anyway the two currents are quite similar... note that this monophase current maybe the result of a triphase dimmer, switching various phases to reduce deforming power and increase frequency (to help filtering, and phase balance, when used by 3)... what looks as complexity is simply classical electric power engineering... for the 100-200kWe used by the 1MWth power plant, this may be a hell to control phase and harmonics and reduce deforming and reactive power... electric companies bill you for that, and can even ban you if you inject that mess in the grid. 2014-11-03 19:10 GMT+01:00 Arnaud Kodeck arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be: Bob, Nice analysis. The eCats are configured in star or triangle. I think from what analysed is that it is a star with a free neutral. This could be also disinformation. This configuration might have never worked at all and be published one year later to lead the replicator in the wrong direction. Arnaud -- *From:* Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com] *Sent:* lundi 3 novembre 2014 15:49 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information Bob Greenyer of MFMP just posted this image of Rossi's lab with 3 hotCats being tested and I put it on my Google drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Pc25a4cOM2U3FIWmpCMnlZaFE/view?usp=sharing A wealth of information can be gleaned from this: · Rossi is testing 3 hotCats simultaneously. · Each hotCat is connected with 2-wires only - Each IS CONNECTED SINGLE PHASE! This probably means that the hotCat only relies on heat-up, not magnetic field interaction - certainly not rotating field interaction. · The gray box has 3 thermocouple connections with one going to each hotCat · The gray box controller is controlling the energy to all 3 hotCats via the red 3-phase SCR controller in such a way as to control the temperature of each hotCat independently. · This gray box controller is designed to control each hotCat solely based on 1 temperature measurement per hotCat. The temperature controllers mounted on the gray box are probably each controlling the setpoint of each hotCat (I.E. they are not being used just as temperature meters). A microcontroller in the gray box may read each meter (RS232) and then sets the SCR angle for that phase to control the power to each hotCat. · The red SCR box may be configured for delta SCR configuration for easy control of the individual hotCats, in which case a microprocessor would not be needed. Each of the little PID temperature controller panel meters could directly control the corresponding SCR in the delta phase configuration. Even if the red box had y-configured SCRs, they probably could be controlled with the panel temperature controllers with simple logic. · Replication need not use a 3-phase heater coil inside the hotCat because there is no need to simulate an industrial environment. Replication just got easier. Basically each hotCat is just a small temperature regulated mini-tube furnace. It would be possible to design the replica to operate on ordinary US 120VAC, even with a 15A outlet using a triac dimmer with an inexpensive PID temperature controller from eBay. Bob Higgins
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: There is little valid rationale for avoiding flow calorimetry – other than that the results would be embarrassing. I disagree. I think that flow calorimetry would be difficult at these temperatures for a device of this size. It would also make it impossible to watch the device, and I would prefer to keep an eye on the thing. It might be dangerous to seal it in a flow calorimeter. Flow calorimetry for a gadget of this apparent power level and size is not inherently difficult. Once the gadget is made fully reliable and controllable, I am sure a commercial water heater could be designed for it. (A water heater is a flow calorimeter.) However, in the laboratory test phase I prefer the present method. I think the present method should be used with a thermocouple to confirm the IR camera. When this report was first published, I assumed a thermocouple was used, because one is shown in the schematic. It is not clear to me now whether it was or was not used. That is one of the questions I asked the authors. They have not responded. - Jed
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, November 3, 2014 2:12:43 PM I think the present method should be used with a thermocouple to confirm the IR camera. When this report was first published, I assumed a thermocouple was used, because one is shown in the schematic. It is not clear to me now whether it was or was not used. That is one of the questions I asked the authors. They have not responded. The thermocouple in the diagram is Rossi's control thermocouple. They say in the paper that they tried to attach a thermocouple, but couldn't because of the ridges (spiral?) .
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: The thermocouple in the diagram is Rossi's control thermocouple. I know. I got the impression they tapped into it, or displayed the numbers from it. I am still not sure they didn't. They say in the paper that they tried to attach a thermocouple, but couldn't because of the ridges (spiral?) . Yeah. I guess that means they could not use the internal one. This does seem like a half-assed effort. Maybe it was a fully-assed effort but the report left out important details. Who knows? - Jed
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
From the other pictures, it is pretty clear that Rossi is using a sheathed k-type thermocouple with the hotCat. Because this thermocouple is not rated to operate at the temperatures that the reactor convection tube was supposedly operating, it appears that Rossi had placed (by design) the thermocouple in a cooler section of the hotCat (the end for example) where the temperature may be related to the temperature of the convection tube, but not at as high of a temperature. Because of this, the Lugano team may not have wished to use the data from that thermocouple. On the gray box there are 3 panel mounted PID temperature controllers - to one of which the k-type thermocouple was connected. This temperature controller has a setpoint for the hotCat (may be only a high temperature cutout) and will also provide a *constant readout of the temperature* that the thermocouple measures. So, those running the experiment would have constantly seen the temperature that the thermocouple was reading. I am sure they would have used that temperature data if it appeared to be useful. They may have manually logged it. On Mon, Nov 3, 2014 at 5:47 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: The thermocouple in the diagram is Rossi's control thermocouple. I know. I got the impression they tapped into it, or displayed the numbers from it. I am still not sure they didn't. They say in the paper that they tried to attach a thermocouple, but couldn't because of the ridges (spiral?) . Yeah. I guess that means they could not use the internal one. This does seem like a half-assed effort. Maybe it was a fully-assed effort but the report left out important details. Who knows? - Jed
Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information
I agree that reported information are incoherent. the statement that one average effective current is the sum of two others implies that the 3 current are synchronous ... the fact that people see 4 pulse in a cycle shows that is is not a simple monophase controller however, but a triphase driving a single phase load with 3 wires. it seems the report is wrong in it's assumptions, even if the 2 powermeter will anyway do the job of measuring power... even if my speculation are wrong, it is important to consider that we may be wrong about what is the electric circuitry. this is not a problem for powermeter however, as long as there is no DC and few harmonics above 100x 2014-11-03 23:30 GMT+01:00 Arnaud Kodeck arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be: If Rossi has a problem with harmonics and or reactive power, he has better to rethink his electrical circuit. Nowadays, rectifying AC to DC and then again hash it to make AC is common circuits. The harmonics and the reactive power can easily be managed, if the main circuit is designed right. As we say in French,’Il met un emplâtre sur une jambe de bois’. He is using 30 years old solutions for a bad designed circuit. In the Lugano report page 5, there are 3 coils inside the eCat. At one time, one and only one coil is on while the 2 others are off. It is not possible to have 2 on and 1 off. So I don’t understand the speculation. Alain, could you explain more? -- *From:* alain.coetm...@gmail.com [mailto:alain.coetm...@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Alain Sepeda *Sent:* lundi 3 novembre 2014 22:51 *To:* Vortex List *Subject:* Re: [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information an idea to check from the surprising claim in the report that one of the wire effective current was abo the sum of the (equals) two others... after some rethinking, this imply all current are synchronous... this is a monophase devices, with simply 2 coils... what for ? only speculation that it may just make some thermal oscillations from left to right, or center to extremities, or else stabilize center and extremities... anyway the two currents are quite similar... note that this monophase current maybe the result of a triphase dimmer, switching various phases to reduce deforming power and increase frequency (to help filtering, and phase balance, when used by 3)... what looks as complexity is simply classical electric power engineering... for the 100-200kWe used by the 1MWth power plant, this may be a hell to control phase and harmonics and reduce deforming and reactive power... electric companies bill you for that, and can even ban you if you inject that mess in the grid. 2014-11-03 19:10 GMT+01:00 Arnaud Kodeck arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be: Bob, Nice analysis. The eCats are configured in star or triangle. I think from what analysed is that it is a star with a free neutral. This could be also disinformation. This configuration might have never worked at all and be published one year later to lead the replicator in the wrong direction. Arnaud -- *From:* Bob Higgins [mailto:rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com] *Sent:* lundi 3 novembre 2014 15:49 *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Subject:* [Vo]: New Rossi lab photo has much information Bob Greenyer of MFMP just posted this image of Rossi's lab with 3 hotCats being tested and I put it on my Google drive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5Pc25a4cOM2U3FIWmpCMnlZaFE/view?usp=sharing A wealth of information can be gleaned from this: · Rossi is testing 3 hotCats simultaneously. · Each hotCat is connected with 2-wires only - Each IS CONNECTED SINGLE PHASE! This probably means that the hotCat only relies on heat-up, not magnetic field interaction - certainly not rotating field interaction. · The gray box has 3 thermocouple connections with one going to each hotCat · The gray box controller is controlling the energy to all 3 hotCats via the red 3-phase SCR controller in such a way as to control the temperature of each hotCat independently. · This gray box controller is designed to control each hotCat solely based on 1 temperature measurement per hotCat. The temperature controllers mounted on the gray box are probably each controlling the setpoint of each hotCat (I.E. they are not being used just as temperature meters). A microcontroller in the gray box may read each meter (RS232) and then sets the SCR angle for that phase to control the power to each hotCat. · The red SCR box may be configured for delta SCR configuration for easy control of the individual hotCats, in which case a microprocessor would not be needed. Each of the little PID temperature controller panel meters could directly control the corresponding SCR in the delta phase configuration. Even if the red box had y-configured SCRs, they probably could be controlled with the panel temperature
