Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[H Veeder]

Ok
Harry

On Oct 20, 2015 4:16 PM, "Bob Higgins"  wrote:

>From what I saw of their experiment, the thermocouples (k-type) measuring
the two vessels were connected in series so that the measurement that came
out on the wires was the temperature difference between the two.  This may
be more accurate than having two absolute thermocouples and subtracting to
get a small temperature difference.  I believe that the temperature of the
empty vessel was presumed to be the temperature of a thermocouple in the
"air" nearby.

​T​
his portion of the setup is certainly worth some clarification by the
authors.

​

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[H Veeder]

I also think it is good idea think to think of the NAE as consisting of an
oven even if the oven is only a room at a temperature of 20 C.


Harry

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:22 PM, David Roberson <dlrober...@aol.com> wrote:

> You are making a valid point.  My bet is on the exothermic activity
> within the fueled vessel since the other one should behave like any other
> random piece of metal.  The real question is whether or not enough time was
> spent generating heat to eliminate the possible chemical reactions.  I
> suspect not.  And, careful calibration must be established to ensure that a
> real difference in temperature exists.
>
> I approve of the technique of using an oven to establish the operating
> core temperature instead of heating windings with electricity.  Both
> methods should result in the generation of core heat, but using the oven
> appears to be a significantly better way to balance the operational
> temperature between the two vessels for comparison.
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: H Veeder <hveeder...@gmail.com>
> To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2015 11:26 am
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment
>
> It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret
> the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with
> "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic
> activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel".
>
> Harry
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Bob Higgins <rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This morning I translated the recent Russian paper, "The Question of
>> Excess Heat in Nickel-Hydrogen".  If you are interested, you can get a copy
>> of the English version from LENR Forum or from my Google drive at:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Pc25a4cOM2ZzVib0JtOWtyaXc
>>
>> Bob Higgins
>>
>
>

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Teslaalset]

I wonder whether they took the exothermic effects of hydrogen
absorption into account.

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 2:38 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> What I would like to emphasize is that the first study described here was
> an independent, stand-alone observation of excess heat from the Ni-H
> system. There are not many studies like that. All the ones I know of were
> inspired by or linked to Mills, Piantelli or Rossi. Such results might be
> colored by wishful thinking. Or at least by the knowledge that someone else
> claimed heat from Ni-H, and the hope that the claim can be replicated. In
> contrast, this result apparently came as a surprise to the researchers.
> That is a good thing! It is promising.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Jed Rothwell]

H Veeder  wrote:

It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret the
> temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with "fuel"
> ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic activity or
> exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel".
>

How can you have an endothermic reaction with an empty vessel?


Teslaalset  wrote:


> I wonder whether they took the exothermic effects of hydrogen
> absorption into account.
>

Hydrogen absorption is endothermic. Adsorption is exothermic but I believe
overall the process is endothermic. See:

http://eprints.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/24660/1/5(2)_P71-86.pdf

- Jed

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[H Veeder]

It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret the
temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with "fuel"
( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic activity or
exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel".

Harry

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> This morning I translated the recent Russian paper, "The Question of
> Excess Heat in Nickel-Hydrogen".  If you are interested, you can get a copy
> of the English version from LENR Forum or from my Google drive at:
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Pc25a4cOM2ZzVib0JtOWtyaXc
>
> Bob Higgins
>

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[H Veeder]

On Oct 20, 2015 1:41 PM, "Jed Rothwell"  wrote:
>
> H Veeder  wrote:
>
>> It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret
the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with
"fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic
activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel".
>
>
> How can you have an endothermic reaction with an empty vessel?
>

I didn't suggest that. The paper only gives the relative temperature
difference between the two vessels. We are not provided with absolute
temperature measurements of each vessel.  Are we to assume that absolute
temperature measurements were made so the fueled vessel was known to be
hotter?

Harry

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Teslaalset]

Jed, there is contraditional info around, see:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319914002389
(bottom of the page)



On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 7:37 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> H Veeder  wrote:
>
> It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret
>> the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with
>> "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic
>> activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel".
>>
>
> How can you have an endothermic reaction with an empty vessel?
>
>
> Teslaalset  wrote:
>
>
>> I wonder whether they took the exothermic effects of hydrogen
>> absorption into account.
>>
>
> Hydrogen absorption is endothermic. Adsorption is exothermic but I believe
> overall the process is endothermic. See:
>
>
> http://eprints.lib.hokudai.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2115/24660/1/5(2)_P71-86.pdf
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[David Roberson]

You are making a valid point.  My bet is on the exothermic activity within the 
fueled vessel since the other one should behave like any other random piece of 
metal.  The real question is whether or not enough time was spent generating 
heat to eliminate the possible chemical reactions.  I suspect not.  And, 
careful calibration must be established to ensure that a real difference in 
temperature exists.

I approve of the technique of using an oven to establish the operating core 
temperature instead of heating windings with electricity.  Both methods should 
result in the generation of core heat, but using the oven appears to be a 
significantly better way to balance the operational temperature between the two 
vessels for comparison.

Dave

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: H Veeder <hveeder...@gmail.com>
To: vortex-l <vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2015 11:26 am
Subject: Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment



It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret the 
temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with "fuel" ( 
their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic activity or 
exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel".


Harry



On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Bob Higgins <rj.bob.higg...@gmail.com> wrote:

This morning I translated the recent Russian paper, "The Question of Excess 
Heat in Nickel-Hydrogen".  If you are interested, you can get a copy of the 
English version from LENR Forum or from my Google drive at:


https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Pc25a4cOM2ZzVib0JtOWtyaXc


Bob Higgins

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Bob Higgins]

>From what I saw of their experiment, the thermocouples (k-type) measuring
the two vessels were connected in series so that the measurement that came
out on the wires was the temperature difference between the two.  This may
be more accurate than having two absolute thermocouples and subtracting to
get a small temperature difference.  I believe that the temperature of the
empty vessel was presumed to be the temperature of a thermocouple in the
"air" nearby.

This portion of the setup is certainly worth some clarification by the
authors.

On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 12:53 PM, H Veeder  wrote:

>
> On Oct 20, 2015 1:41 PM, "Jed Rothwell"  wrote:
> >
> > H Veeder  wrote:
> >
> >> It seems to me that based on the given data it is possible to interpret
> the temperature difference between the empty vessel and the vessel with
> "fuel" ( their quotation marks) as resulting from either endothermic
> activity or exothermic activity in the vessel with "fuel".
> >
> >
> > How can you have an endothermic reaction with an empty vessel?
> >
>
> I didn't suggest that. The paper only gives the relative temperature
> difference between the two vessels. We are not provided with absolute
> temperature measurements of each vessel.  Are we to assume that absolute
> temperature measurements were made so the fueled vessel was known to be
> hotter?
>
> Harry
>

[Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Bob Higgins]

This morning I translated the recent Russian paper, "The Question of Excess
Heat in Nickel-Hydrogen".  If you are interested, you can get a copy of the
English version from LENR Forum or from my Google drive at:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5Pc25a4cOM2ZzVib0JtOWtyaXc

Bob Higgins

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Jed Rothwell]

Note that this work was done in the 1990s, so it was not affected by Rossi.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Jed Rothwell]

What I would like to emphasize is that the first study described here was
an independent, stand-alone observation of excess heat from the Ni-H
system. There are not many studies like that. All the ones I know of were
inspired by or linked to Mills, Piantelli or Rossi. Such results might be
colored by wishful thinking. Or at least by the knowledge that someone else
claimed heat from Ni-H, and the hope that the claim can be replicated. In
contrast, this result apparently came as a surprise to the researchers.
That is a good thing! It is promising.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Craig Haynie]

On Mon, 2015-10-19 at 17:26 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:
> Note that this work was done in the 1990s, so it was not affected by
> Rossi.

The paper references work in the 90s, but the paper and the latest work,
is current.

Craig

> 
> 

Re: [Vo]: Translation of Russian paper on Ni-H experiment

[Bob Higgins]

I believe that the work in this paper is new, but the authors remembered
their own previous work with Ni and hydrogen where they saw unexplain-able
heat in the 1990s.  What distinguishes the new work is the use of LAH in a
sealed container.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Note that this work was done in the 1990s, so it was not affected by Rossi.
>
> - Jed
>
>