Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
Did you consider that for the first minute, valve was opened only as little as it can be to be open at all. Later it was opened some more, but not even then it was fully open. Therefore I think that we can call this thing to 200 kPa pressure figure. If someone really did even doubt that, because there was visually so much steam production, I think a worth of 10-20 kW heating power, when stored thermal energy was released. –Jouni 2011/9/21 Alan J Fletcher : > At 10:19 AM 9/21/2011, Joe Catania wrote: > > The constriction dosen't necessarily matter as flow will tend to spped up > when constricted. So you agree that there's no significant extra pressure? > > Mats Lewan told me that his video cut off prematurely, but he thinks the > total draining time was about 3 minutes. He measured the collected output as > 22L. > > http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_h.php#discharge > > If it was 1.3 minutes it is more likely 2 Bars, if it was 7 minutes it would > more likely be 1 Bar. > > My final conclusion is ... at 3 minutes, it's too close to call. >
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 10:19 AM 9/21/2011, Joe Catania wrote: The constriction dosen't necessarily matter as flow will tend to spped up when constricted. So you agree that there's no significant extra pressure? Mats Lewan told me that his video cut off prematurely, but he thinks the total draining time was about 3 minutes. He measured the collected output as 22L. http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_h.php#discharge If it was 1.3 minutes it is more likely 2 Bars, if it was 7 minutes it would more likely be 1 Bar. My final conclusion is ... at 3 minutes, it's too close to call.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
The constriction dosen't necessarily matter as flow will tend to spped up when constricted. So you agree that there's no significant extra pressure? - Original Message - From: Alan J Fletcher To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat At 04:19 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: Have it your way. We can't see inside the tap (or know what type it is), or if it's only partly open -- it is probably more constricted than the outlet. Still there is little pressure necessary. I put up the full table at : http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_drain_g.php I was using 30 litres ... but the actual water volume was 25L (based on the time to fill the eCat), and it could be even less than that after it's been in operation. A draining time of 7 minutes fits 1 Bar better than 2 Bar.
RE: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 05:31 PM 9/20/2011, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint wrote: Alan wrote: We can't see inside the tap (or know what type it is), or if it's only partly open By the looks of the orange handle on the valve, Id say that this is the type of valve that uses only a 90degree turn of the handle to go from full shut to full open (ball valve). When the handle is perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the pipe it is fully closed. When the handle it in-line with the pipe axis it is fully open. From the looks of it in the picture, the handle looks to be about 30 to 35 degs from the perpendicular, which is slightly less than half open You're right ... at 6:41 when the plumber goes to the tap it's perpendicular. But that means he opened it a bit more at 7:36.
RE: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
Alan wrote: "We can't see inside the tap (or know what type it is), or if it's only partly open." By the looks of the orange handle on the valve, I'd say that this is the type of valve that uses only a 90degree turn of the handle to go from full shut to full open (ball valve). When the handle is perpendicular to the longitudinal axis of the pipe it is fully closed. When the handle it in-line with the pipe axis it is fully open. From the looks of it in the picture, the handle looks to be about 30 to 35 degs from the perpendicular, which is slightly less than half open. There's an excellent cutaway view of a ball valve here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_valve -Mark
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 04:19 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: Have it your way. We can't see inside the tap (or know what type it is), or if it's only partly open -- it is probably more constricted than the outlet. Still there is little pressure necessary. I put up the full table at : http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_drain_g.php I was using 30 litres ... but the actual water volume was 25L (based on the time to fill the eCat), and it could be even less than that after it's been in operation. A draining time of 7 minutes fits 1 Bar better than 2 Bar.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
Hi, On 21-9-2011 1:25, Michele Comitini wrote: Standard pipes use inches as unit of measure. Should be one in the table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_Pipe_Size Not always according the following page: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nennweite It says: Bei Kupferrohren wird der Außendurchmesser in mm (10; 12; 15; 18; 22; 28; 35; 42; 54; 64 usw.) angegeben. Die reale Nennweite beträgt dann bei 10-22 2 mm; bei 22-42 3 mm und bei 54+64 4 mm weniger Or in English: With Copper pipes is the Outer Diameter in mm (10; 12; 15; 18; 22; 28; 35; 42; 54; 64 etc.) listed. The actual Inner Diameter is then in case of OD 10-22 mm 2 mm less; in case of OD 22-42 mm 3 mm less and in case of OD 54 or 64 mm 4 mm less. Kind regards, MoB
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
Standard pipes use inches as unit of measure. Should be one in the table: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_Pipe_Size mic 2011/9/21 Joe Catania : > Have it your way. Still there is little pressure necessary. > > - Original Message - > From: Alan J Fletcher > To: vortex-l@eskimo.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:18 PM > Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat > At 04:00 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: > > But look at the size of the orifice in the video. > > http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/110920_sept_0007.jpg > http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/110920_sept_0009.jpg > > 1cm diameter, maximum. >
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
Have it your way. Still there is little pressure necessary. - Original Message - From: Alan J Fletcher To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat At 04:00 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: But look at the size of the orifice in the video. http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/110920_sept_0007.jpg http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/110920_sept_0009.jpg 1cm diameter, maximum.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 04:00 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: But look at the size of the orifice in the video. http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/110920_sept_0007.jpg http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/110920_sept_0009.jpg 1cm diameter, maximum.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
But look at the size of the orifice in the video. - Original Message - From: Alan J Fletcher To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:54 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat At 03:36 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: BTW you should run those time-to-drain numbers again. The outlet looks like its about 2cm in diameter. The sound seems to be mostly water impacting on the side of the pail. Tank height 25 Radius 0.20Time 1 Bar 44.94 minTime 2 Bar 3.52 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 19.97 minTime 2 Bar 1.56 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 11.23 minTime 2 Bar 0.88 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 7.19 minTime 2 Bar 0.56 min Radius 0.60Time 1 Bar 4.99 minTime 2 Bar 0.39 min Radius 0.70Time 1 Bar 3.67 minTime 2 Bar 0.29 min Radius 0.80Time 1 Bar 2.81 minTime 2 Bar 0.22 min Radius 0.90Time 1 Bar 2.22 minTime 2 Bar 0.17 min Radius 1.00Time 1 Bar 1.80 minTime 2 Bar 0.14 min 2cm diam is MUCH too quick.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
I can't agree w/ a diameter of 1 cm. - Original Message - From: Alan J Fletcher To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat At 02:33 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: Clearly your calculations are a bit off. The running time on video is more like 1:20, still greater than drain time for 2 atm, showing there is less than 2atm pressure. But since we don't know for how long the draining continues we dont know how much less. Since the E-Cat is open to atmosphere (by report) we can assume the pressure is 1 atm. Also 1/4 cm seems a bit small for the orifice and drain time would seem to affected by height of water column. I corrected the run time. The time to drain goes as 1/orifice_area * sqrt(column_height) 1/4 is the radius -- 1/2cm diameter At 02:50 PM 9/20/2011, Jouni Valkonen wrote: Considering Akira's temperature graph, we can take that draining took about 5-7 min. That's about 23:15 to 23:22 Hmmm since the outlet is still open cool air will be sucked past the temperature probe, cooling it. When it's completely drained this flow will stop, and the thermal mass will cause the air to heat up again. Tank height 20 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 25.72 minTime 2 Bar 1.80 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 17.86 minTime 2 Bar 1.25 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 13.12 minTime 2 Bar 0.92 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 10.05 minTime 2 Bar 0.70 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 7.94 minTime 2 Bar 0.56 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 6.43 minTime 2 Bar 0.45 min Tank height 22.5 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 27.28 minTime 2 Bar 2.03 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 18.95 minTime 2 Bar 1.41 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 13.92 minTime 2 Bar 1.04 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 10.66 minTime 2 Bar 0.79 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 8.42 minTime 2 Bar 0.63 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 6.82 minTime 2 Bar 0.51 min Tank height 25 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 28.76 minTime 2 Bar 2.25 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 19.97 minTime 2 Bar 1.56 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 14.67 minTime 2 Bar 1.15 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 11.23 minTime 2 Bar 0.88 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 8.88 minTime 2 Bar 0.70 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 7.19 minTime 2 Bar 0.56 min Tank height 27.5 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 30.16 minTime 2 Bar 2.48 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 20.95 minTime 2 Bar 1.72 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 15.39 minTime 2 Bar 1.26 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 11.78 minTime 2 Bar 0.97 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 9.31 minTime 2 Bar 0.76 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 7.54 minTime 2 Bar 0.62 min Tank height 30 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 31.50 minTime 2 Bar 2.70 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 21.88 minTime 2 Bar 1.88 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 16.07 minTime 2 Bar 1.38 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 12.31 minTime 2 Bar 1.05 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 9.72 minTime 2 Bar 0.83 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 7.88 minTime 2 Bar 0.68 min So ... pick a number (or two!) and draw your conclusions.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
A 5-7 min draining time is completely consistent with 1 atm (ie no additional pressure). That represents a flow of ~50ml/s or a velocity of ~15cm/s which is ~ 1/66 of the velocity obtained from dropping for 1 sec in a gravity field. Since mgh=1/2mv^2, h= 1/2 (.15m/s)^2 /10ms^-2 or h=0.1125cm so the water only has to drop a 1/10 cm to gain enough KE to drain the tank at 50ml/s. - Original Message - From: "Jouni Valkonen" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 5:50 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat Alan, excellent work again. Considering Akira's temperature graph, we can take that draining took about 5-7 min. In the beginning pressure was 210 kPa or 122°C. But it is needed to take into consideration, that valve was opened slowly. In the end of video, valve was only half open. http://i.imgur.com/lU42G.png Therefore I think that we have now rather conclusive proof, that indeed, temperature gives us at least approximately the pressure inside E-Cat. It is not anymore just an assumption, but data supports the idea. –Jouni 2011/9/21 Alan J Fletcher : I just ran the calculations for draining a 30L eCat through a 0.25 cm radius tap. http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_f.php The drain-time says 2 Bars ! 6. Discharge at the End I can't figure out the "dumping" of the water at the end, either. Is it 100C water, or is it 118C water? 1 Bar or 2 Bars ? I've never seen 25L of boiling water dumped through a tap, so I don't know what it should look like. It does appear to come out under pressure, and it does seem to flash to steam at the edge of the stream -- both supporting evidence for an internal pressure of 2 Bars. The video ends before the discharge is complete. Time to drain tank The drain is at a depth of 30 cm and 30 liters is to be drained (based on the dimensions of 60 x 50 x 30 cm). The radius of the outlet tap is about 0.25 cm. For atmospheric pressure (1 Bar) the time to drain is 1260.18 secs ( 21.00 min) For a pressure of 2 Bar we can ADD 33 feet of water to the tank height (draining from 33 feet + 30cm to 33 feet + 0 cm). The time to drain is then 108.02 secs ( 1.80 min) Although the video ended before the eCat was completely drained, the time shown on the video (6:44 to 8:05) -- or 1.83 minutes tends indicate 2 bars pressure, not 1 bar. The time to discharge, the fact that the flow did not diminish, and that the water seemed to flash into steam around the edge, all support the "pressurized" hypothesis. The general argument is the same as for the hose outlet -- 118C water would flash rapidly.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 03:36 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: BTW you should run those time-to-drain numbers again. The outlet looks like its about 2cm in diameter. The sound seems to be mostly water impacting on the side of the pail. Tank height 25 Radius 0.20Time 1 Bar 44.94 minTime 2 Bar 3.52 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 19.97 minTime 2 Bar 1.56 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 11.23 minTime 2 Bar 0.88 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 7.19 minTime 2 Bar 0.56 min Radius 0.60Time 1 Bar 4.99 minTime 2 Bar 0.39 min Radius 0.70Time 1 Bar 3.67 minTime 2 Bar 0.29 min Radius 0.80Time 1 Bar 2.81 minTime 2 Bar 0.22 min Radius 0.90Time 1 Bar 2.22 minTime 2 Bar 0.17 min Radius 1.00Time 1 Bar 1.80 minTime 2 Bar 0.14 min 2cm diam is MUCH too quick.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 02:33 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: Clearly your calculations are a bit off. The running time on video is more like 1:20, still greater than drain time for 2 atm, showing there is less than 2atm pressure. But since we don't know for how long the draining continues we dont know how much less. Since the E-Cat is open to atmosphere (by report) we can assume the pressure is 1 atm. Also 1/4 cm seems a bit small for the orifice and drain time would seem to affected by height of water column. I corrected the run time. The time to drain goes as 1/orifice_area * sqrt(column_height) 1/4 is the radius -- 1/2cm diameter At 02:50 PM 9/20/2011, Jouni Valkonen wrote: Considering Akira's temperature graph, we can take that draining took about 5-7 min. That's about 23:15 to 23:22 Hmmm since the outlet is still open cool air will be sucked past the temperature probe, cooling it. When it's completely drained this flow will stop, and the thermal mass will cause the air to heat up again. Tank height 20 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 25.72 minTime 2 Bar 1.80 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 17.86 minTime 2 Bar 1.25 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 13.12 minTime 2 Bar 0.92 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 10.05 minTime 2 Bar 0.70 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 7.94 minTime 2 Bar 0.56 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 6.43 minTime 2 Bar 0.45 min Tank height 22.5 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 27.28 minTime 2 Bar 2.03 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 18.95 minTime 2 Bar 1.41 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 13.92 minTime 2 Bar 1.04 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 10.66 minTime 2 Bar 0.79 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 8.42 minTime 2 Bar 0.63 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 6.82 minTime 2 Bar 0.51 min Tank height 25 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 28.76 minTime 2 Bar 2.25 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 19.97 minTime 2 Bar 1.56 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 14.67 minTime 2 Bar 1.15 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 11.23 minTime 2 Bar 0.88 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 8.88 minTime 2 Bar 0.70 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 7.19 minTime 2 Bar 0.56 min Tank height 27.5 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 30.16 minTime 2 Bar 2.48 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 20.95 minTime 2 Bar 1.72 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 15.39 minTime 2 Bar 1.26 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 11.78 minTime 2 Bar 0.97 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 9.31 minTime 2 Bar 0.76 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 7.54 minTime 2 Bar 0.62 min Tank height 30 Radius 0.25Time 1 Bar 31.50 minTime 2 Bar 2.70 min Radius 0.30Time 1 Bar 21.88 minTime 2 Bar 1.88 min Radius 0.35Time 1 Bar 16.07 minTime 2 Bar 1.38 min Radius 0.40Time 1 Bar 12.31 minTime 2 Bar 1.05 min Radius 0.45Time 1 Bar 9.72 minTime 2 Bar 0.83 min Radius 0.50Time 1 Bar 7.88 minTime 2 Bar 0.68 min So ... pick a number (or two!) and draw your conclusions.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
BTW you should run those time-to-drain numbers again. The outlet looks like its about 2cm in diameter. The sound seems to be mostly water impacting on the side of the pail. - Original Message - From: Alan J Fletcher To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat At 02:56 PM 9/20/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 02:33 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_f.php I seem to have broken my file ... back soon! It's back ... I added a table of draining time vs tap radius, and corrected the video time. I'm still open to revising my conclusion. (!!!)
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 02:56 PM 9/20/2011, Alan J Fletcher wrote: At 02:33 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_f.php I seem to have broken my file ... back soon! It's back ... I added a table of draining time vs tap radius, and corrected the video time. I'm still open to revising my conclusion. (!!!)
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 02:33 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_f.php I seem to have broken my file ... back soon!
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
Alan, excellent work again. Considering Akira's temperature graph, we can take that draining took about 5-7 min. In the beginning pressure was 210 kPa or 122°C. But it is needed to take into consideration, that valve was opened slowly. In the end of video, valve was only half open. http://i.imgur.com/lU42G.png Therefore I think that we have now rather conclusive proof, that indeed, temperature gives us at least approximately the pressure inside E-Cat. It is not anymore just an assumption, but data supports the idea. –Jouni 2011/9/21 Alan J Fletcher : > I just ran the calculations for draining a 30L eCat through a 0.25 cm radius > tap. > > http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_f.php > > The drain-time says 2 Bars ! > > 6. Discharge at the End > > I can't figure out the "dumping" of the water at the end, either. Is it 100C > water, or is it 118C water? 1 Bar or 2 Bars ? > > I've never seen 25L of boiling water dumped through a tap, so I don't know > what it should look like. It does appear to come out under pressure, and it > does seem to flash to steam at the edge of the stream -- both supporting > evidence for an internal pressure of 2 Bars. The video ends before the > discharge is complete. > > Time to drain tank > > The drain is at a depth of 30 cm and 30 liters is to be drained (based on > the dimensions of 60 x 50 x 30 cm). The radius of the outlet tap is about > 0.25 cm. > > For atmospheric pressure (1 Bar) the time to drain is 1260.18 secs ( 21.00 > min) > > For a pressure of 2 Bar we can ADD 33 feet of water to the tank height > (draining from 33 feet + 30cm to 33 feet + 0 cm). The time to drain is then > 108.02 secs ( 1.80 min) > > Although the video ended before the eCat was completely drained, the time > shown on the video (6:44 to 8:05) -- or 1.83 minutes tends indicate 2 bars > pressure, not 1 bar. > > The time to discharge, the fact that the flow did not diminish, and that the > water seemed to flash into steam around the edge, all support the > "pressurized" hypothesis. > > The general argument is the same as for the hose outlet -- 118C water would > flash rapidly. > >
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
Clearly your calculations are a bit off. The running time on video is more like 1:20, still greater than drain time for 2 atm, showing there is less than 2atm pressure. But since we don't know for how long the draining continues we dont know how much less. Since the E-Cat is open to atmosphere (by report) we can assume the pressure is 1 atm. Also 1/4 cm seems a bit small for the orifice and drain time would seem to affected by height of water column. - Original Message - From: Alan J Fletcher To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 5:03 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat At 12:49 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: The point is that a gallon empties very quickly even though not vented at the top. The sound it makes is immaterial and is most like caused by the water hitting the barrel. I don't know why you feel the water is under inordinate pressure. The E-CAt is open to the atmosphere unless Lewan seals the other valve. I doubt this as the water seems to be drainig with venting. Why not ask Lewan how long it took to empty the E-Cat? - Original Message - From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calulations for 1 MW plant. On Sep 20, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Joe Catania wrote: Yes a sealed galon bottle may dribble if a hole is poked but if its vented at the top you should get a steady stream. Or if air enters through the bottom you don't get a dribble! I scan't confirm high velocity flow in the video. Since you can't tell me the rate of flow out the valve we have nothing to discuss. The video runs for about 1 minute 20 seconds before ending and the tank is still emptying. I assume ~20L of water in the tank. Sigh. Look at the video! Do you hear a gurgle gurgle gurgle or a high powered woos? The water is obviously under high pressure. The couple atmospheres pressure estimate by others does not seem off. You need a numerical velocity to determine the difference? I just ran the calculations for draining a 30L eCat through a 0.25 cm radius tap. http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_f.php The drain-time says 2 Bars ! 6. Discharge at the End I can't figure out the "dumping" of the water at the end, either. Is it 100C water, or is it 118C water? 1 Bar or 2 Bars ? I've never seen 25L of boiling water dumped through a tap, so I don't know what it should look like. It does appear to come out under pressure, and it does seem to flash to steam at the edge of the stream -- both supporting evidence for an internal pressure of 2 Bars. The video ends before the discharge is complete. Time to drain tank The drain is at a depth of 30 cm and 30 liters is to be drained (based on the dimensions of 60 x 50 x 30 cm). The radius of the outlet tap is about 0.25 cm. For atmospheric pressure (1 Bar) the time to drain is 1260.18 secs ( 21.00 min) For a pressure of 2 Bar we can ADD 33 feet of water to the tank height (draining from 33 feet + 30cm to 33 feet + 0 cm). The time to drain is then 108.02 secs ( 1.80 min) Although the video ended before the eCat was completely drained, the time shown on the video (6:44 to 8:05) -- or 1.83 minutes tends indicate 2 bars pressure, not 1 bar. The time to discharge, the fact that the flow did not diminish, and that the water seemed to flash into steam around the edge, all support the "pressurized" hypothesis. The general argument is the same as for the hose outlet -- 118C water would flash rapidly.
Re: [Vo]:Calculations for 1 MW plant. + Time to Drain the eCat
At 12:49 PM 9/20/2011, Joe Catania wrote: The point is that a gallon empties very quickly even though not vented at the top. The sound it makes is immaterial and is most like caused by the water hitting the barrel. I don't know why you feel the water is under inordinate pressure. The E-CAt is open to the atmosphere unless Lewan seals the other valve. I doubt this as the water seems to be drainig with venting. Why not ask Lewan how long it took to empty the E-Cat? - Original Message - From: "Horace Heffner" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 2:46 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Calulations for 1 MW plant. On Sep 20, 2011, at 10:36 AM, Joe Catania wrote: Yes a sealed galon bottle may dribble if a hole is poked but if its vented at the top you should get a steady stream. Or if air enters through the bottom you don't get a dribble! I scan't confirm high velocity flow in the video. Since you can't tell me the rate of flow out the valve we have nothing to discuss. The video runs for about 1 minute 20 seconds before ending and the tank is still emptying. I assume ~20L of water in the tank. Sigh. Look at the video! Do you hear a gurgle gurgle gurgle or a high powered woos? The water is obviously under high pressure. The couple atmospheres pressure estimate by others does not seem off. You need a numerical velocity to determine the difference? I just ran the calculations for draining a 30L eCat through a 0.25 cm radius tap. http://lenr.qumbu.com/rossi_ecat_sep11_f.php The drain-time says 2 Bars ! 6. Discharge at the EndI can't figure out the "dumping" of the water at the end, either. Is it 100C water, or is it 118C water? 1 Bar or 2 Bars ? I've never seen 25L of boiling water dumped through a tap, so I don't know what it should look like. It does appear to come out under pressure, and it does seem to flash to steam at the edge of the stream -- both supporting evidence for an internal pressure of 2 Bars. The video ends before the discharge is complete. Time to drain tank The drain is at a depth of 30 cm and 30 liters is to be drained (based on the dimensions of 60 x 50 x 30 cm). The radius of the outlet tap is about 0.25 cm. For atmospheric pressure (1 Bar) the time to drain is 1260.18 secs ( 21.00 min) For a pressure of 2 Bar we can ADD 33 feet of water to the tank height (draining from 33 feet + 30cm to 33 feet + 0 cm). The time to drain is then 108.02 secs ( 1.80 min) Although the video ended before the eCat was completely drained, the time shown on the video (6:44 to 8:05) -- or 1.83 minutes tends indicate 2 bars pressure, not 1 bar. The time to discharge, the fact that the flow did not diminish, and that the water seemed to flash into steam around the edge, all support the "pressurized" hypothesis. The general argument is the same as for the hose outlet -- 118C water would flash rapidly.
