Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Gee .. a very bland summary on wiki lasted all of 2 minutes : In September 2013 the Swedish Electrical Utilities’ R D Company Elforsk . . . Do you mean you added this to the Wikipedia cold fusion article? And within 2 minutes someone erased it? They must have an automated tool telling them someone has changed the article. They guard it well, like demons at the gates of hell. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
we should propose to the erased a contract: - if the LENR is proven you are fired or you let the data leak. normally he will wait to be fired because of Groupthink collective Delusion. 2013/10/26 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Gee .. a very bland summary on wiki lasted all of 2 minutes : In September 2013 the Swedish Electrical Utilities’ R D Company Elforsk . . . Do you mean you added this to the Wikipedia cold fusion article? And within 2 minutes someone erased it? They must have an automated tool telling them someone has changed the article. They guard it well, like demons at the gates of hell. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
more diplomatically I make a contribution. no edit... I keep the evidences (as pdf) http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?2481-Wikipedia-self-appointed-guardian-erased-Elforsk-article-in-2-minutesp=5906#post5906 2013/10/26 Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com we should propose to the erased a contract: - if the LENR is proven you are fired or you let the data leak. normally he will wait to be fired because of Groupthink collective Delusion. 2013/10/26 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: Gee .. a very bland summary on wiki lasted all of 2 minutes : In September 2013 the Swedish Electrical Utilities’ R D Company Elforsk . . . Do you mean you added this to the Wikipedia cold fusion article? And within 2 minutes someone erased it? They must have an automated tool telling them someone has changed the article. They guard it well, like demons at the gates of hell. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
From: Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:32:29 PM Gee .. a very bland summary on wiki lasted all of 2 minutes : In September 2013 the Swedish Electrical Utilities’ R D Company Elforsk included in their Perspectives report a two-page section on [[Cold Fusion]], with particular attention to Rossi's eCat, and the test by Levi et al, which Elforsk partly funded.
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I recall seeing a link to slides somewhere on this list with advice to people giving demos -- something to the effect that you should demo an earlier model rather than your latest one. Sure. That's often prudent. The latest version may not be debugged. It might fail unexpectedly, whereas with a previous version you know the weaknesses and the work-arounds. A software developer working on version 3.5 prefers to show 3.4 to a potential customer. To take an actual example, when Rossi handed the Hot cat to ELFORSK for testing, I'll bet he did not think it would melt! An earlier, cooler model would not have melted. So, to make a good impression he should have stuck with an earlier model. But, to show them the most impressive performance and the most definitive result, he gave them most recent version, even though it was unstable. Defkalion's demo device was not one generation behind what they claimed they had years ago. It was extremely crude compared to that. So I guess they were exaggerating years earlier. I guess so, but I do not know what to make of those people. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
another good reason not to show your latest model is - avoiding triggering fierce fear from competitors http://www.focus.it/fileflash/energia/fusioneFredda/FF_doc/2009-06-25_NASA-GRC-Millis_AnomalousHeatEffect.pdf ( extract is summarized there http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?804-Why-Reactors-demo-and-proofs-are-so-weakhighlight=millis ) - not leaking some secrets For some reason I will give a 1cent advice: for those who have IP which may interest others, protect it from high-profile spies (IT and ground-based), and from even friendly visitors. Not a joke. things get serious. no need to ask why Elforsk, Enel, ST Micro, toyota, mitsubishi fund lenr. 2013/10/24 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I recall seeing a link to slides somewhere on this list with advice to people giving demos -- something to the effect that you should demo an earlier model rather than your latest one.
RE: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
An overview is to be expected. The final paragraph says: There are an estimated 20 something players, who in one way or another are active or doing research in the cold fusion domain. On behalf of Elforsk, an overview of the current stance in research, findings, etc., is being compiled. The overview will be available on Elforsk's web page in October. .s
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
Impressive. Looks like Elforsk has decided that the May report has some merit. This is definitely an event which increases the probability of what Rossi is doing will work. On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Sunil Shah s.u.n@hotmail.com wrote: An overview is to be expected. The final paragraph says: There are an estimated 20 something players, who in one way or another are active or doing research in the cold fusion domain. On behalf of Elforsk, an overview of the current stance in research, findings, etc., is being compiled. The overview will be available on Elforsk's web page in October. .s
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
It is a finding from david...he posted it on the forum. probably from the mouth of the horse... ;-) 2013/10/23 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Alain: Thanks for posting this. Do you know where the original Swedish document is? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: Impressive. Looks like Elforsk has decided that the May report has some merit. As noted they already said that in the previous press release: The measurements show that the catalyst gives substantially more energy than can be explained by ordinary chemical reactions. I doubt they would have approved the Levi paper acknowledgement for publication if they did not think it has merit. (I mean they would have asked Levi et al. to remove their name from the paper.) Organizations such as ELFORSK and EPRI are careful about what they endorse. This is definitely an event which increases the probability of what Rossi is doing will work. You mean this increases your confidence that what Rossi is doing will work. The actual likelihood that it will work depends on physics, and on Rossi's skill. I agree this boosts Rossi's credibility. The actual EFORSK report was a bigger boost, but this helps. I look forward to the overview in this month's edition of the Perspectives. This is good for cold fusion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
I agree that Elforsk and all evidence we have don't eliminate the risk that E-cat does not work well... that it is unstable, unreliable, or have problems... what this article rules out is that e-cat does not exist, is not working at all, is a fraud... of course some will try to stick on their position taht it is a fraud, because if it is not a fraud, it mean that LENr is real, and that the physicists claims in 89 were absurds, and all the others claims who parroted the initial ones, were absurds parroting with less and less excuse with time passing. in fact this less and less excuse explain the desperate delusion... they are like the last square of soldiers who know that they will die in the battle, because they will have too many opponents blood on their hand. denying LENr today is pff... you can be prudent, careful, expert murphism, denounce exaggerations... but denying all is denialism. 2013/10/23 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote: Impressive. Looks like Elforsk has decided that the May report has some merit. As noted they already said that in the previous press release: The measurements show that the catalyst gives substantially more energy than can be explained by ordinary chemical reactions. I doubt they would have approved the Levi paper acknowledgement for publication if they did not think it has merit. (I mean they would have asked Levi et al. to remove their name from the paper.) Organizations such as ELFORSK and EPRI are careful about what they endorse. This is definitely an event which increases the probability of what Rossi is doing will work. You mean this increases your confidence that what Rossi is doing will work. The actual likelihood that it will work depends on physics, and on Rossi's skill. I agree this boosts Rossi's credibility. The actual EFORSK report was a bigger boost, but this helps. I look forward to the overview in this month's edition of the Perspectives. This is good for cold fusion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: I agree that Elforsk and all evidence we have don't eliminate the risk that E-cat does not work well... that it is unstable, unreliable, or have problems... Yes. On the contrary, the ELFORSK paper shows that it is unstable. It melted! The Hotcat version is clearly not ready for commercial use. I do not know whether the low temperature versions are ready. Frankly, I doubt they are. I do not think any cold fusion device should be allowed on the market until production line models have been subjected to millions of hours of testing in hundreds of different labs and places like Underwriter's Laboratory. We do not allow automobiles to be sold until they have been crash tested. Those tests cost many millions of dollars for each model. It is a small price to pay for automobile safety. The notion that cold fusion devices can be sold to corporations or individuals now, in this primitive state of development, is a reflection of the amateur status of the research. If Rossi and the people at Defkalion seriously believe they might start sales in a year or two, even before they crank out a few thousand devices to be safety tested, they are either naive, ignorant of safety standards, or they are trying to sell investors a bill of goods. Defkalion used to claim their devices were being safety tested by the Greek government. I didn't believe it then, and I sure don't believe it now, having seen their demonstration. Who on earth would test that for safety!? We can't even be sure it is working, given the problems measuring the flow rate. It is a crude, laboratory prototype. If they had something like a commercial prototype years ago, suitable for testing, why are they still working with this crude gadget? I will grant it is no more crude or unreliable than any other cold fusion device, but no government agency would subject it to consumer product safety testing. That's absurd. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
By the way, there is NOTHING wrong with a crude prototype device. See the first transistor: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/talk/transistor.gif An early Diesel engine, probably better than the prototype that exploded: http://image.dieselpowermag.com/f/features/0912dp_rudolph_diesel/25492076/0912dp_02%2Brudolph_diesel%2Bsingle_cylinder_diesel_engine.jpg See any airplane made before 1912, especially the improbable ones such as this, designed by Alexander Graham Bell: http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/up%20to%20WW%201/images/3a.jpg Not one of his better efforts. We don't need practical devices at this stage. We need working devices that can be tested. No one should care whether a device is practical or not. If we can persuade the public this is real, billions of dollars will be spent converting today's crude prototypes into practical devices. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: If they had something like a commercial prototype years ago, suitable for testing, why are they still working with this crude gadget? I recall seeing a link to slides somewhere on this list with advice to people giving demos -- something to the effect that you should demo an earlier model rather than your latest one. Eric
[Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?2475-News-from-Swedish-Elforsk-about-ECATp=5900viewfull=1#post5900 *ELFORSK Perspective * *Unknown nuclear process Can revolutionize the world's energy* *What is happening when the Italian inventor and contractor Andrea Rossi demonstrates his so-called Energy catalyst? Was the if a hitherto unknown nuclear reaction or is it just an illusion? * Clearly Rossi invention, Ecat as he calls it, has evidently performance in the vicinity of a nuclear reactor but without the radiation that arises when the nuclei split or merged. It shows the astounding results of measurements witnessed by among others Swedish researchers. - The large power development is not explain today. It is essential much larger than what is possible to achieve through a chemical reaction, as for example when burning oil. The only explanation that I see it that in the case of a hitherto unknown nuclear process, says högenergifysikprofessorn and the President of the Academy of Sciences Energy Committee Sven Kullander. Even for just over two years ago he is a study in Bologna, at the invitation by Andrea Rossi for on-site witness a demonstration of the technology. On trip was also Hanno Essén, Associate Professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at KTH. *Puzzling results * How the E-cat works in detail is still unknown. According Andrea Rossi due to patent reasons. But one know that nickel and hydrogen along with a number of secret additives (additives) are included in the process. Kullander and Essén got at visit examine reactor apparatus without surrounding insulation and estimated it had a volume of about 50 cubic centimeter (about the size of a scooter cylinder). The reactor was made of stainless steel. Surface steel casing was a sleeve of copper and the space in between flowing the water shortly afterwards would be heated to the boil. During the demonstration, which lasted in just under six hours generated energy catalyzer full 25 kilowatt hours energy. A result that is still bewilders both Sven Kullander and Hanno Essén. - It is impossible that one could develop so much heat energy in a small space by ordinary combustion, says Sven Kullander which therefore does not exclude any form of nuclear physical process given rise to the measured energy. For magazine Ny Teknik says Kullander and Essén that throughout experiment had the opportunity to examine equipment. - We checked everything that could be check and we could walk around and turning and turn on the time, but that we could detect any abnormality, says Hanno Essén, stating that they have a hard time believing that Rossi scams. - On the Internet you can find a variety of speculation is based on experiments is a forgery. Smuggling of electricity through ground wire and smuggling of DC when measuring instruments measured the AC have been proposed as explanations for deception. My reaction is that this is extremely unlikely. This power through soil management have been checked and DC theory can be ruled out for several reasons. Purely psychological works not that they are working intensively for years to deceive others with simple peasant prisoners trick. There is no credibility in such theory. A number of reports notes anomalous heat production, of several independent and competent persons, strengthens this hypothesis, says Hanno Essén *Test for power generation * The great interest in the energy catalyzer has anyway led to new demon- demonstration of the technology in order to clarify its reliability and hitherto unknown properties. Most recently, in March 2013, when five Swedish (including Hanno Essén) and two Italian researchers conducted a test run in Rossi's premises in Bologna. This time of a larger apparatus for high temperatures (called Hotcat) and with a view to generating electricity. While these tests show an unexplained power consumption and heat generation, the researchers who compiled a report on the tests, partly financed by Elforsk (see report http://arxiv.org/ abs/1305.3913). But still, no one, except possibly Andrea Rossi himself, explaining how the extraordinary heat production occurs. The core of the unit is a space containing nickel powder. Hydrogen and heat is applied and this gives as inventor rise to a reaction which produces heat. In addition to these simple Ingredients learn the above, be smaller amounts secret additives powder. *Scepticism * That it would move about so-called cold fusion or some kind lågenergikärn- reaction, also referred LENR after of English Low Energy Nuclear Reaction, questioned however by many researchers. Among other things, they failed to demonstrate significantly elevated levels of ionizing radiation. - It is important to remember that tests of Rossi's device only provides a indication of an abnormal heat generation, says Bo Höistad, professor of nuclear physics at Uppsala University, who participated as
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
Alain: Thanks for posting this. Do you know where the original Swedish document is? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
- Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:21:22 PM Thanks for posting this. Do you know where the original Swedish document is? http://www.lenr-forum.com/attachment.php?s=6bf9aec8478c3175b2342cabf9c36a65attachmentid=95d=1382468657 Needs registration -- I didn't get it.
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
This will take you to the original Swedish document http://www.elforsk.se/Global/Trycksaker%20och%20broschyrer/elforsk_perspektiv_nr2_2013.pdf On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: -- *From: *Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com *Sent: *Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:21:22 PM Thanks for posting this. Do you know where the original Swedish document is? http://www.lenr-forum.com/attachment.php?s=6bf9aec8478c3175b2342cabf9c36a65attachmentid=95d=1382468657 Needs registration -- I didn't get it. -- Frank Acland Publisher, E-Cat World http://www.e-catworld.com
Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a perspective mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars
Thank you! Frank Acland ecatwo...@gmail.com wrote: This will take you to the original Swedish document http://www.elforsk.se/Global/Trycksaker%20och%20broschyrer/elforsk_perspektiv_nr2_2013.pdf
