Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Eric Walker]

I wrote:

Breakdown of an inexpensive K-type thermocouple?
>

Indeed -- it seems that K-type thermocouples are found to suffer
unpredictable degradation in hydrogen atmospheres at temperatures above 900
C:

https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2836-Good-Calorimetry-articles/

Presumably not just inexpensive K-type thermocouples are affected.  This
post should be required reading for anyone doing or following thermometry
experiments. The suggestion is to use N-type or S-type thermocouples
instead.  But also perhaps another reason to use genuine calorimetry.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Eric Walker]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Jones Beene  wrote:

The one thing that many of these replication attempts have in common is an
> apparent threshold temperature of about 1200C before gain starts.
>
>
>
> It would be helpful and intuitive, moving forward, to know what this
> temperature relates to, exactly.
>

Breakdown of an inexpensive K-type thermocouple?

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jed Rothwell]

Alain Sepeda  wrote:

Is it uncommon ?
>

No, on-the-fly calibration is common. It has been widely used, especially
in electrochemical experiments. Fleischmann and Pons recommended it.

All the more Zhang should try it.



> I have seen such practice in many old PdD LENR papers, and in recent Ed
> Storms reports. This is something to promote fo replicators I imagine ?
>

Yes.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Alain Sepeda]

Is it uncommon ?
I have seen such practice in many old PdD LENR papers, and in recent Ed
Storms reports. This is something to promote fo replicators I imagine ?

another (less common) practice is the servo-mode, popularized by michael
McKubre in his closed cell isothermal flow calorimetry.

I found recently a document from LANL about calorimetry in nuclear
technology
http://www.lanl.gov/orgs/n/n1/panda/10.%20Calorimetry.pdf
many ideas from professional... big calorimeter... passive or servo. air
flow, water flow. solid state...


I've also digged Ed Storms "cheap seebeck calorimeter" paper (seebeck
calorimeter done with many TC)...

problem here  with NiLiH replicators are :
- reaction seems very sensible to temperature so servo-mode reduce control
on one parameter (this is even a key finding of Ed Storms in PdD
electrolysis)
- even heat pulse calibration in a dogbone configuration may trigger some
effect...

maybe the dogbone could have two independent heating coil
- one near the chamber quickly heat the fuel
- one near the outside, or in the flow/seebeck calorimeter add a pulse of
heat that reach the fuel much damped and much later.

anyway there is much to learn in old papers, and in professional documents
(including in IR cam documentation ;-> )

2016-03-03 4:06 GMT+01:00 Jed Rothwell :

> Russ George  wrote:
>
>
>> The simple and perhaps ideal calibration in these sorts of experiments is
>> to have a second heat source of some few or few tens of watts that can be
>> turned on intermittently.
>>
>
> A calibration on-the-fly. Good idea. I think we should suggest this to
> Zhang.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jed Rothwell]

Russ George  wrote:


> The simple and perhaps ideal calibration in these sorts of experiments is
> to have a second heat source of some few or few tens of watts that can be
> turned on intermittently.
>

A calibration on-the-fly. Good idea. I think we should suggest this to
Zhang.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jed Rothwell]

Jack Cole  wrote:

It is an interesting result.  They really need to do a calibration as a
> comparison.
>

Yes, a calibration is essential. I think they need to do a lot of things,
but I think this is more promising than the previous paper by Jiang. I like
the way the inner and outer thermocouples reverse, and I like the way they
continue to track one another closely after the reversal. I do not think
the inner one was damaged by hot hydrogen gas. If it had been, it would go
haywire the way Jiang's did, and it would no longer track the outer one.

At first glance, this looks to me like real anomalous heat because:

1. It is smooth and steady, unlike the abrupt bonkers behavior in Jiang's
T2. (Actual anomalous heat may be coming out in short bursts but the 1 L
stainless steel vessel with 1-cm-thick walls makes a good heat sink. It
will smooth out busts of heat.)

2. As I said, the inner and outer thermocouples track one another pretty
well. They drop out and recover suddenly at 1200 and again at 1400. Look at
the small perturbation at 1500, soon after the "150 min." (150 分) segment
begins. They seem to be in tandem.

3. The temperature difference is big enough that I do not think it is an
instrument error, or within the margin of error.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Russ George]

The simple and perhaps ideal calibration in these sorts of experiments is to 
have a second heat source of some few or few tens of watts that can be turned 
on intermittently. If the traces reveal the bumps from the added heat then the 
system becomes almost perfectly described.

 

From: Jack Cole [mailto:jcol...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 5:24 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

 

Jed,

 

It is an interesting result.  They really need to do a calibration as a 
comparison.

 

Jack

 

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:14 PM Jed Rothwell <jedrothw...@gmail.com 
<mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Daniel Rocha <danieldi...@gmail.com <mailto:danieldi...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Jed, I am confused. This guy is not the same as the other group, who got 
problems with thermocouples, is it?

 

It is a different person at the same institute:

China Institute of Atomic Energy, P.O. 275(49), Beijing 102413 (中国原子能科学研究院)

 

The names are similar.


The first paper was by Song-Sheng Jiang  (蒋崧生) et al., and the second paper is 
by Zhang Hansheng (张航 ). Zhang acknowledges help from the first guy.

- Jed

 

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jack Cole]

Jed,

It is an interesting result.  They really need to do a calibration as a
comparison.

Jack

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:14 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Daniel Rocha  wrote:
>
> Jed, I am confused. This guy is not the same as the other group, who got
>> problems with thermocouples, is it?
>>
>
> It is a different person at the same institute:
>
> China Institute of Atomic Energy, P.O. 275(49), Beijing 102413 (中国原子能科学研究院)
>
> The names are similar.
>
> The first paper was by Song-Sheng Jiang  (蒋崧生) et al., and the second
> paper is by Zhang Hansheng (张航 ). Zhang acknowledges help from the first
> guy.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jed Rothwell]

Daniel Rocha  wrote:

Jed, I am confused. This guy is not the same as the other group, who got
> problems with thermocouples, is it?
>

It is a different person at the same institute:

China Institute of Atomic Energy, P.O. 275(49), Beijing 102413 (中国原子能科学研究院)

The names are similar.

The first paper was by Song-Sheng Jiang  (蒋崧生) et al., and the second paper
is by Zhang Hansheng (张航 ). Zhang acknowledges help from the first guy.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Daniel Rocha]

Jed, I am confused. This guy is not the same as the other group, who got
problems with thermocouples, is it?

2016-03-02 19:22 GMT-03:00 Jed Rothwell :

> [image: Boxbe]  This message is eligible
> for Automatic Cleanup! (jedrothw...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule
> 
> | More info
> 
>
> I wrote:
>
>
>> (6 bar = 0.6 MPa. This table shows hydrogen density at 1 MPa at 25°C is
>> 0.8 kg/m^3. This is 0.034 kg, or 0.043 m^3 = 43 L)
>>
>
> Oh wait. It gets a lot hotter than 25°C, doesn't it? Granted, the NIST
> table and graph does not show pressure increasing much between 0°C and
> 125°C. This graph does not go any higher.
>
> 1 MPa goes from 0.8085 kg/M^3 at 25°C down to 0.6061 kg/M^3 at 125°C.
>
> I wonder why the pressure does not increase in the graph from Zhang? Am I
> missing something here?
>
> The pressure drops off starting at 1100, then increases, and drops off
> again a couple of times. Someone suggested that is a leak which they are
> refilling. This person thought the gas might be igniting, which causes the
> excess heat. It would ignite in the vicinity of the outer wall
> thermocouple, if it ignited anywhere.
>
> I thought this pressure fluctuation might be the nickel powder absorbing
> and desorbing the gas, but I wouldn't know. The text does not mention
> adding in new gas.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>


-- 
Daniel Rocha - RJ
danieldi...@gmail.com

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jed Rothwell]

I wrote:


> (6 bar = 0.6 MPa. This table shows hydrogen density at 1 MPa at 25°C is
> 0.8 kg/m^3. This is 0.034 kg, or 0.043 m^3 = 43 L)
>

Oh wait. It gets a lot hotter than 25°C, doesn't it? Granted, the NIST
table and graph does not show pressure increasing much between 0°C and
125°C. This graph does not go any higher.

1 MPa goes from 0.8085 kg/M^3 at 25°C down to 0.6061 kg/M^3 at 125°C.

I wonder why the pressure does not increase in the graph from Zhang? Am I
missing something here?

The pressure drops off starting at 1100, then increases, and drops off
again a couple of times. Someone suggested that is a leak which they are
refilling. This person thought the gas might be igniting, which causes the
excess heat. It would ignite in the vicinity of the outer wall
thermocouple, if it ignited anywhere.

I thought this pressure fluctuation might be the nickel powder absorbing
and desorbing the gas, but I wouldn't know. The text does not mention
adding in new gas.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jed Rothwell]

Russ George  wrote:

Looks like near perfect ‘thermometry’ to me! Just what one would hope for
> with a perfectly functioning thermocouple.
>

Yes. As I said, I like the way the inner and outer thermocouples switch
temperatures. This indicates a source of heat starting up within the cell.

Incidentally, I managed to type some Chinese (using Japanese input mode),
and I ran it through Google.translate.com. I figured out the first three
characters are 不锈钢 meaning "stainless steel." I confirm this says inner and
outer thermocouple:

不锈钢反应器内壁热电偶 Stainless steel reactor wall thermocouple
不锈钢反应器外壁热电偶 Stainless steel reactor outer wall thermocouple

Try it yourself!

Other info:

The size of the reactor is 68 mm diameter, 150 mm long, 10 mm thick wall,
which works out to exactly 1 L.

The author estimates this is 5 MJ of anomalous heat. The heat of formation
of water is 285,800 J/mole so that's 17 moles or 34 g of hydrogen. I
believe 34 g of hydrogen at 6 bar takes up ~43 L. I would appreciate it if
someone would check my arithmetic, which I too often get wrong. See:

http://hydrogen.pnl.gov/hydrogen-data/hydrogen-density-different-temperatures-and-pressures

(6 bar = 0.6 MPa. This table shows hydrogen density at 1 MPa at 25°C is 0.8
kg/m^3. This is 0.034 kg, or 0.043 m^3 = 43 L)

 - Jed

RE: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jones Beene]

The one thing that many of these replication attempts have in common is an 
apparent threshold temperature of about 1200C before gain starts.

 

It would be helpful and intuitive, moving forward, to know what this 
temperature relates to, exactly. For instance, is this a threshold in photon 
resonance in the SPP formation process? It could also relate to a phase-change 
in a fuel component, or many other unknown parameters as well.

 

There is a simple way to find out one datum insofar as it relates to SPP– at 
least for those reactors like the glow-tube which are not enclosed in a dewar 
of some kind, like the Chinese setup. 

 

As it happens, the typical 40 watt incandescent bulb, produced by the billions 
and cheap, coincidentally has a surface temperature of a little over 1200C. 
Using a parabolic lamp reflector, such as a study-lamp, it would be possible to 
use 2 or 3 lamps to irradiate a glow tube in such a way that more photons of IR 
corresponding to 1200C are available, compared with the inefficiency of the 
resistance wire heater. This way the tube does not have to shed 95% of the heat 
that it does not use. (assuming SPP are the relevant parameter). IOW we are 
trying to add superradiance of the Preparata-Dicke variety to substitute for 
low value heat.

 

In effect, 120 watts could probably be a good substitute for ~1000 watts often 
used if we are only concerned with the peak photon irradiance (for SPP) and not 
the broad blackbody thermal load.

 

 

From: Jed Rothwell 

 

Here is Fig. 8 with my rough translations in orange text:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6qvuFUMAp9HT2taZ0hBMjYtS1U/view?usp=sharing

RE: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Russ George]

Looks like near perfect ‘thermometry’ to me! Just what one would hope for with 
a perfectly functioning thermocouple.

 

From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 12:25 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

 

Here is Fig. 8 with my rough translations in orange text:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6qvuFUMAp9HT2taZ0hBMjYtS1U/view?usp=sharing

Re: [Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jed Rothwell]

Here is Fig. 8 with my rough translations in orange text:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6qvuFUMAp9HT2taZ0hBMjYtS1U/view?usp=sharing

[Vo]:Yet another Rossi replication reported from China

[Jed Rothwell]

Zhang Hansheng, in China Institute of Atomic Energy reports a replication
of Songsheng Jiang, who replicated Rossi. See:

https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/2839-Zhang-Hangcheng-reports-replication-of-Songsheng-experiment-done-in-January-2016/?postID=14642#post14642

A brief report in Chinese is here:

https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Attachment/527-20160302062724813-pdf/?s=6ece1266061942ef254cd4b092cfeddd9c90227b


Google translate:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN=en=y=_t=en=UTF-8=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lenr-forum.com%2Fforum%2Findex.php%2FAttachment%2F527-20160302062724813-pdf%2F%3Fs%3D6ece1266061942ef254cd4b092cfeddd9c90227b=

I have to say, this looks better than Jiang in some ways. The internal
thermocouple is cooler than the wall thermocouple at first, and then it
gets significantly hotter, as you see in Fig. 8. That would indicate
anomalous heat.

Google does not translate the text in Fig. 8 because it is an image. As
Google more or less said, the Fig. 8 caption is "changes in relation
between heating power and temperature." The text in the figure is similar
to Japanese so let me just translate it.

Y-axis: temperature °C / pressure bar / power, W

X-axis: time, 30 minute [segments]

In the graph, from top to bottom:

Top left:
2016 January 18-19
Dat 0149
reactor #4 (2)

Top right:
Anomalous heat: ~100 W, 1295°C

150 minutes


Text box:

Red dots: [Some sort of??] reactor: reactor internal temperature
thermocouple
Blue dots: [Some sort of??] reactor: reactor wall temperature thermocouple
[As Google notes, this is between the container and the furnace]
Green dots: Pressure x 10
Purple dots: Power x 0.1


[The only words I cannot read describe the reactor.]

- Jed