Interesting gas tax proposal
Hi All. If Horace is still out there, I thought he would get a big kick out of this proposal. http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/4/26/152946/325 It's a non-starter for a couple reasons; but it is somewhat more feasible than a simple tax. K.
RE: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax
Hey Keith, set up a paypal account for donations. This might be a rag-tag group, but I bet $20 here and there from the active and lurkers alike would give you some operating capital with no strings attached. Personally I like to understand what I am funding before I elect to give up my lunch budget for it. Post a business plan. Post quarterly updates and progress reports. If it seems worthwhile and lets me fanaticize about one day being able to give both the bastards at ComEd and Nicor the bird I WANT IT. Lord knows I am not able to do it in MY basement... -j -Original Message- From: Keith Nagel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 3:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax Hi Horace, Well, lets see. I've spent a better part of my adult life trying to do something about this. Early on, my mentor and I founded a 501(c)(3) to fund our work in the new energy technologies. The response from donors was this is commercial, go to the VC's. The response from the VC's were, what can you do by next quarter? Needless to say, but for an angel or two, it was hardly worth the airplane tickets. So I go to Wall St, and do the corporate thing for a few years to build a war chest. The 90's were a good time for that you know, after the disastrous leadership of Clinton, an 8 year economic boom made some actual money float around, and you saw that reflected in the people here and the discussion. So I could fund my own work, and things progressed. Sadly, the last 5 years of fiscally sound policy of our current leaders has produced an unending war for oil, an economy still in the toilet, with no signs of real recovery ( and did any of you really believe that trickle down theory crap? Even Reagan's advisors backed away from that one. ) Can't make much progress when the fishing hole is drying up, you know. Let's add to this, that real success is going to mean _giving_ the results away to the very people who created this debacle, and you can see the problem. Look, about 4 feet from where I sit writing software, a mountain of lab equipment and technology sits largely idle. Sure, it's a passion of mine, nothing is going to stop me from working, but the occasional stolen hours do not add up to much by each years end. The truly pathetic thing is how little money it takes to keep the work going, for the cost some of my wealthy friends spend on golf course memberships I could be doing this full time and making real progress. But the ugly truth is, NO ONE WANTS THIS. Let that one sink in, Horace. Everyone pays lips service, but when it comes right down to it, NO ONE WANTS THIS. You can't have a society based on selfishness and greed and expect much else. Posting grandiose plans for publicly funded energy research is just so much crap, frankly. I know you mean well, but do you think that what you are saying hasn't been said by 100's before you? Common sense and a recitation of the facts is not going to get the job done. Forget the politicians, they're too busy jamming feeding tubes down vegetables throats fighting to impress Thomas Malloy for his vote. Don't look to these folks for the answer, or even benign neglect. They're also part of the problem. I don't expect any handouts. I do what I do because it's my passion, I love to do research. And if someone believes that the future can be better and that parting with some pocket change can make it happen, I'll crank up another 501(c)(3) and things will in fact happen again. For now, it's the snails pace and ~100 troops a month dead in the desert. Sorry for ranting, but perhaps it's time for some of these truths to be uttered in public. It's not like I have anything to lose, 'cos it's not like anyone's got the balls to put some money on the table for this stuff. Some folks say that individuals can't make a difference. Bullshit. Individuals are the _only_ ones that ever make a difference. K. -Original Message- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 2:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas Tax When are people going to stop complaining and arguing and actually DO SOMETHING about energy. The following was a reasonable starting point when posted here over two years ago, and it is still a good way to use the modest gas tax proposed, or even a much larger gas tax, which is now much more appropriate as precious years have been frittered away and the situation is much worse: http://tinyurl.com/7eqju Regards, Horace Heffner -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.12 - Release Date: 05/04/15
RE: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax
Hi John, Yes, the thought crossed my mind. I toy with the idea now and then, although I find the internet to be very specific when it comes to raising money. For example, this guy http://www.savetoby.com/ Presumably he's getting the money for his gear, not from frantic 15 year old girls. Snopes claims this is a hoax, but why? A local girl raised about 35K this way for her credit card debts a few years ago( sushi and shoes can run you a big tab in Manhattan ). My boobs are way too small to make that work. OK, OK, I'm being too cynical. It's not a bad idea really, but there needs to be a hook of some kind. It's something Jean Louis Naudin ought to try, but I suspect given the size of his list ( largest one for this niche ) that the donations wouldn't exceed 2K. He has an angel, which is the general way of these things. Bill takes donations, and he has a more general audience than this list ( science education ) but I suspect he needs the day job, yes? It's all a matter of scale, and shock to draw the audience, that's what makes internet donation stuff work. Look at the examples I gave, those dollar values are a little more practical. Here's a better thought; I form another 501(c)(3) as a think tank and take on people from this list as the tankers. You donate your papers and thoughts and get a tax break based on the valuation, and hopefully we raise money to do experiments. Get paid to post, from Uncle Sam (grin). Sounds good? I would actually be partial to doing this, but again without a full time grant writer or fund raiser it's likely going to be a labor of love and a distraction from what work needs to be done. Jed takes donations for his CF library, he's gotten about 2K as a result of his prodigious efforts. I think that should give you a sense of just what it would take to fund something based on this method. It's a tough slog, as Don Rumsfeld likes to opine. Jed's angel is Infinite Energy, as he explains on his site. Here's what I do now to fund my work. http://www.kpnconsulting.com/products.htm No handouts required, just buy the software and you can be assured that the money goes towards a good thing. Plus, you get a serious tool(s) for researching the patent databases. Lots of good stuff to be found there, especially useful for evaluating new claims ( you all remember SMOT? it was patented _years_ ago. ) I'm working on the 2005 version right now, in fact. Hey, I'm a capitalist at heart. Seems crazy in today's world; Horatio Alger has long since been dead and buried. But you know that. Still, we persist. K. -Original Message- From: John Steck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 5:19 PM To: Vortex-L Subject: RE: Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax Hey Keith, set up a paypal account for donations. This might be a rag-tag group, but I bet $20 here and there from the active and lurkers alike would give you some operating capital with no strings attached. Personally I like to understand what I am funding before I elect to give up my lunch budget for it. Post a business plan. Post quarterly updates and progress reports. If it seems worthwhile and lets me fanaticize about one day being able to give both the bastards at ComEd and Nicor the bird I WANT IT. Lord knows I am not able to do it in MY basement... -j
Re: Gas Tax
When are people going to stop complaining and arguing and actually DO SOMETHING about energy. The following was a reasonable starting point when posted here over two years ago, and it is still a good way to use the modest gas tax proposed, or even a much larger gas tax, which is now much more appropriate as precious years have been frittered away and the situation is much worse: http://tinyurl.com/7eqju Regards, Horace Heffner
Another Challenge/ was RE: Gas Tax
Hi Horace, Well, lets see. I've spent a better part of my adult life trying to do something about this. Early on, my mentor and I founded a 501(c)(3) to fund our work in the new energy technologies. The response from donors was this is commercial, go to the VC's. The response from the VC's were, what can you do by next quarter? Needless to say, but for an angel or two, it was hardly worth the airplane tickets. So I go to Wall St, and do the corporate thing for a few years to build a war chest. The 90's were a good time for that you know, after the disastrous leadership of Clinton, an 8 year economic boom made some actual money float around, and you saw that reflected in the people here and the discussion. So I could fund my own work, and things progressed. Sadly, the last 5 years of fiscally sound policy of our current leaders has produced an unending war for oil, an economy still in the toilet, with no signs of real recovery ( and did any of you really believe that trickle down theory crap? Even Reagan's advisors backed away from that one. ) Can't make much progress when the fishing hole is drying up, you know. Let's add to this, that real success is going to mean _giving_ the results away to the very people who created this debacle, and you can see the problem. Look, about 4 feet from where I sit writing software, a mountain of lab equipment and technology sits largely idle. Sure, it's a passion of mine, nothing is going to stop me from working, but the occasional stolen hours do not add up to much by each years end. The truly pathetic thing is how little money it takes to keep the work going, for the cost some of my wealthy friends spend on golf course memberships I could be doing this full time and making real progress. But the ugly truth is, NO ONE WANTS THIS. Let that one sink in, Horace. Everyone pays lips service, but when it comes right down to it, NO ONE WANTS THIS. You can't have a society based on selfishness and greed and expect much else. Posting grandiose plans for publicly funded energy research is just so much crap, frankly. I know you mean well, but do you think that what you are saying hasn't been said by 100's before you? Common sense and a recitation of the facts is not going to get the job done. Forget the politicians, they're too busy jamming feeding tubes down vegetables throats fighting to impress Thomas Malloy for his vote. Don't look to these folks for the answer, or even benign neglect. They're also part of the problem. I don't expect any handouts. I do what I do because it's my passion, I love to do research. And if someone believes that the future can be better and that parting with some pocket change can make it happen, I'll crank up another 501(c)(3) and things will in fact happen again. For now, it's the snails pace and ~100 troops a month dead in the desert. Sorry for ranting, but perhaps it's time for some of these truths to be uttered in public. It's not like I have anything to lose, 'cos it's not like anyone's got the balls to put some money on the table for this stuff. Some folks say that individuals can't make a difference. Bullshit. Individuals are the _only_ ones that ever make a difference. K. -Original Message- From: Horace Heffner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 2:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: Gas Tax When are people going to stop complaining and arguing and actually DO SOMETHING about energy. The following was a reasonable starting point when posted here over two years ago, and it is still a good way to use the modest gas tax proposed, or even a much larger gas tax, which is now much more appropriate as precious years have been frittered away and the situation is much worse: http://tinyurl.com/7eqju Regards, Horace Heffner
Gas Tax
The way I see it is this: if there is no high gas tax, demand continues to grow which increases gas prices anyway--the price increase ends up going to the refiners and the people owning the oil wells. If there is a high gas tax, demand is reduced (well, hopefully) and the money goes to government, state/federal, which can use it to provide...energy saving techniques, mass transport, rail ticket rebates, rebates on fuel duty for those living far out in the country, home insulation, etc etc. The whole argument fails unless govt uses the tax revenue in a sensible way. Of course one of the main differences between Europe and US is the population density, which is about 10 times greater here (certainly in the UK) than in the US. So people's commutes are much shorter. One thing the global economy seems to be doing at present is encouraging migration into economically active regions, eg, into the South-East (in the UK), into Europe/US from less well developed nations, and into big cities within the developing nations (Bombay/Mumbai, Mexico City, etc etc ). It seems to be difficult for regional or rural economies to develop and this is putting more pressure on tranport demand, for goods and people. And in households, both spouses are now often working, and/or families are splitting up. Very difficult for two people to be able to live close to where they work. Maybe higher transport costs will change all this, but at the moment I don't quite see the mechanism. From: Stephen R. Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373
Re: Gas tax
Stephen Lawrence suggestion on gas tax presupposes integrity in government which cannot exist because the political animal cannot be tamed or constricted by money. Money unleashes the beast. The beast must be starved. Last year a seemingly nebulous bill passed as an " adder" to some law. The wording simply stated some feel good need for " jobs creation". Buried deep in the understanding of this adder permitted the IRS to " farm out" collections of past due taxes to private collectors. Enter a new realm of " privatizing". Law firms are opening offices in Washington in droves to get some of this " easy money" Supposedly there are 9 billion dollars in " low hanging fruit" to be plucked off the money tree for an estimated cost of collection of 1 billion. Why? You say, doesn't the IRS spend the 1 billion to collect the 9?. Well , it seems there is more like an estimated 350 billion in potential taxes that can be " wrung out" of the system using the proper scare tactics. Remember one is guilty till proven innocent in tax court. Add to this, the transfer of confidential records from IRS files to " law firms" and the ingredients for a "witches brew" are ready for the kettle. The entire process can be "offshored" to India. The collection " agent" get a percentage of the take as an inducement. in other words, a protection racket. Richard Blank Bkgrd.gif
Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad
hey, your speaking to the katana of reasoned discussion here. hehehe On 4/14/05, Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RC Macaulay wrote: Stephen Lawrence suggestion on gas tax presupposes integrity in government which cannot exist because the political animal cannot be tamed or constricted by money. Money unleashes the beast. The beast must be starved. Which beast do you mean? Saudi Arabia or the U.S. Federal Government? If we are going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars on gasoline I would prefer to see the windfall go to the Federal government than to people who establish thousands of schools to train children to hate us and conduct jihad against us. Speaking of jihads, here is the first report of yet another terrorist group calling itself the Unitarian Jihad: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/08/DDG27BCFLG1.DTL Quotes: Greetings to the Imprisoned Citizens of the United States. We are Unitarian Jihad. There is only God, unless there is more than one God. The vote of our God subcommittee is 10-8 in favor of one God, with two abstentions. . . . We are Unitarian Jihad, and our motto is: 'Sincerity is not enough.' We have heard from enough sincere people to last a lifetime already. Just because you believe it's true doesn't make it true. Just because your motives are pure doesn't mean you are not doing harm. . . . People of the United States! We are Unitarian Jihad! We can strike without warning. Pockets of reasonableness and harmony will appear as if from nowhere! Nice people will run the government again! There will be coffee and cookies in the Gandhi Room after the revolution. How much more can we take? Where will it all end?!? - Jed -- Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write Voltaire
Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad
At 08:19 am 14-04-05 -0700, you wrote: hey, your speaking to the katana of reasoned discussion here. hehehe Since I had no idea what katana meant I thought I would give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally orientally challenged. ;-) --- A slightly curved sword, with its convex edge sharpened, used since the Ashikaga period (1333-1474). It was one of the weapons used by the Bushi class, especially the Samurai, which used it together with a shorter sword called Wakizashi. The Katana has been endowed with a sacred element, since it comes from the work store of a member of the Shintoist priesthood. The two swords together are called Daisho (long and short), and were used by Samurai of all the ranks. ---
Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad
From: Grimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Since I had no idea what katana meant I thought I would give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally orientally challenged. ;-) Not if they saw Kill Bill Vol. I.
Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad
Grimer wrote: Since I had no idea what katana meant I thought I would give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally orientally challenged. ;-) --- A slightly curved sword, with its convex edge sharpened, used since the Ashikaga period (1333-1474). It was one of the weapons used by the Bushi class . . . I do not know about Ashikaga period Japanese, but in modern Japanese it just means sword. Any kind, as far as I know. - Jed
Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad
no, even in modern japanese, a katana is a particular kind of sword. other notable japanese swords, the dai-katana (think greatsword made like a katana), the tachi, an even larger version, used from horseback, the ninja-to, a shorter, straight blade weapon, with a chisel point for penetrating armor, easily hidden in robes, used for assasination. the katana was worn in a grouping called the daisho, which included the wakisazi, a smaller katata, and or the tanto, a dagger. (dont get me started on yari and naginata and their various forms) (i swear, the lack of knowledge on some things around here just shocks me) but yeah, the unitarian jihad page has a name generator on it. several friends and i were messing around with it a few days back. it pulls up a weapon, a style, and a thing to apply that style to. lots of laughs. On 4/14/05, Jed Rothwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Grimer wrote: Since I had no idea what katana meant I thought I would give the definition for any other Vorts who are equally orientally challenged. ;-) --- A slightly curved sword, with its convex edge sharpened, used since the Ashikaga period (1333-1474). It was one of the weapons used by the Bushi class . . . I do not know about Ashikaga period Japanese, but in modern Japanese it just means sword. Any kind, as far as I know. - Jed -- Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write Voltaire
Re: Gas tax / Unitarian Jihad
leaking pen wrote: no, even in modern japanese, a katana is a particular kind of sword. Not according to my 1954 edition Kenkyusha' Japanese-English dictionary. Under katana it says sword; blade. See also: http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/wwwjdic/ Maybe things have changed since 1954. Note also that in Kenkyusha's English-Japanese dictionary (1960 edition), under sword you find tsurugi; katana. And in a Japanese only dictionary, when you look up tsurugi you find katana and vice versa. Dictionaries are unhelpful in that regard. - Jed
Re: Gas Tax
--- Stephen R. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe higher transport costs will change all this, but at the moment I don't quite see the mechanism. From: Stephen R. Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 Ah, so you already live there. My mistake, I did not get to this message before replying to the earlier one. Sohow much do you make again? I'll bet more than me (and most of the people over here who the gas prices are hurting or will hurt.) I think Jed is more or less correct in his view, that if the prices are forced that high, drop the tax burden on the working class and raise it for the upper class. --Kyle __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
Re: Gas Tax
better yet. raise it for the corporations that use most of the gas in their trucking fleets. in addition, start billing them for road usage, instead of the citizens. On 4/14/05, Kyle Mcallister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Stephen R. Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe higher transport costs will change all this, but at the moment I don't quite see the mechanism. From: Stephen R. Lawrence, 8 Supanee Court, French's Road, Cambridge, England, CB4 3LB. Tel/Fax +44 1223 564373 Ah, so you already live there. My mistake, I did not get to this message before replying to the earlier one. Sohow much do you make again? I'll bet more than me (and most of the people over here who the gas prices are hurting or will hurt.) I think Jed is more or less correct in his view, that if the prices are forced that high, drop the tax burden on the working class and raise it for the upper class. --Kyle __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ -- Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write Voltaire
