RE: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
I found a multi author 2006 ppt including Grabowski on this same subject: Anomalous Heat in Deuterium-Palladium Reactions David A. Kidwell, Allison E. Rogers, Kenneth Grabowski, and David Knies Chemical effect due to Hydrogen-Deuterium exchange may account for some of the ... lenr-canr.org/powerpoint/KidwellDdoesgasloa.ppt As Mixtent pointed out the Grabowski paper is only for anomalous heat when a mixture of hydrogen and deuterium are present. It doesn't apply to experiments using pure hydrogen or even pure deuterium. It does however represent one example of a bistable chemical reaction that flips states based on the balance between covalent bonding on one side and Van der Walls force on the other. Since the H-D exchange method swaps h2 for d1 it is obviously a surface effect outside a cellular lattice which can only hold h1 or d1 per cell (correct me if there is an exception). I suspect Van der Walls forces are concentrated and have steep gradients at the surface to produce the 4:1 loading/ film effect proposed in the Lawandry paper. IMHO this would also produce a preferential environment for monatomic gas on the lattice surface of the catalyst (like open foam cell insulation). D1 can migrate into the open cells - possibly even become fractional while covalent bonds are opposed to fractional translation. Regards fran
RE: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
Fran, This could be an important paper for expanding the concept into an alternative method of chemical thermal cycling - for either heating or cooling purposes. There could be anomalous gain derived from Casimir heating in this kind of situation, but that is not claimed. And it is only implied if you should chose to look for it. However, the paper can explain why some other thermal anomalies have appeared, especially cooling, in the context of a hydrogen absorbing nanopowder. What came to mind specifically was the TEC experiments, and claims of A. Rossi, several years ago, which apparently then led to the LENR results as the next step. He apparently found a strong cooling effect in nano-nickel first. Following which, there could have been serendipity, leading to the heating results (if they are true). The theoretical connection of thermoelectric cooling to thermal gain - using the same or similar nanopowder, has not been evident before. The Kidwell paper offers a possible explanation that may point the way to how this could happen, but the exact details are still nebulous for me. Fran sees it as an example of a bistable chemical reaction that flips states based on the balance between covalent bonding on one side and van der Waals force on the other . but perhaps the wording of this should be changed to hydrogen bonding on the other - in that the hydrogen bond (up to 30 kJ/mole) is stronger than a van der Waals interaction and could be in the range of weak covalency. The covalent bond, especially in nickel or palladium would be weak to begin with, so a sequential shuttling, back and forth between those two, could exploit any asymmetry based on such things as geometric (Casimir) time distortion. Furthermore, in contrast to electrostatic or ionic bonds, the strength of covalency depends on the angular relation between the atoms, which is affected by confinement. This shuttling approach could be related to a kind of asymmetrical phase change involving a dissolved, but not chemically-bound gas - which is known as the iceberg effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clausius%E2%80%93Mossotti_relation It should also be noted that the A-Z formula is ferromagnetic. Yet being magnetic, it must have a Curie temperature, and probably a low one, but that is unknown (to me). The Curie temp of Nickel (Ni) is 358 C. and the 'trigger temperature' for the A-Z effect is in the range of 400 C. Therefore the two might be related . or not. Coincidences do happen. Jones Speaking of coincidences, one was in the literary News last week - on the anniversary of To Kill a Mockingbird. How unlikely is it that two of the best-known and respected writers in America would have been best friends growing up in a tiny rural Alabama town, and been totally eccentric to boot ? From: Roarty, Francis X I found a multi author 2006 ppt including Grabowski on this same subject: Anomalous Heat in Deuterium-Palladium Reactions David A. Kidwell, Allison E. Rogers, Kenneth Grabowski, and David Knies Chemical effect due to Hydrogen-Deuterium exchange may account for some of the ... lenr-canr.org/powerpoint/KidwellDdoesgasloa.ppt As Mixtent pointed out the Grabowski paper is only for anomalous heat when a mixture of hydrogen and deuterium are present. It doesn't apply to experiments using pure hydrogen or even pure deuterium. It does however represent one example of a bistable chemical reaction that flips states based on the balance between covalent bonding on one side and Van der Walls force on the other. Since the H-D exchange method swaps h2 for d1 it is obviously a surface effect outside a cellular lattice which can only hold h1 or d1 per cell (correct me if there is an exception). I suspect Van der Walls forces are concentrated and have steep gradients at the surface to produce the 4:1 loading/ film effect proposed in the Lawandy paper. IMHO this would also produce a preferential environment for monatomic gas on the lattice surface of the catalyst (like open foam cell insulation). D1 can migrate into the open cells - possibly even become fractional while covalent bonds are opposed to fractional translation.
RE: RE: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
Oops! Now I see why you recommended the hydrogen bond since the h2 d1 exchange doesn't necessarily require the h2 be disassociated . a cluster of atoms could simply exchange the d1 for h2 using only electrostatic or hydrogen bonding. I got my theories confused at one point and was referring to disassociation of h2 in ref to the exchange theory in error. Regards Fran From: francis [mailto:froarty...@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 5:41 PM To: 'vortex-l@eskimo.com' Subject: RE: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical Jones, I inadvertently quoted you out of context in my previous reply supporting a covalent bond when you were clearly advocating hydrogen bonding. Jones Beene said on Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:18:49 -0700 Fran, This could be an important paper for expanding the concept into an alternative method of chemical thermal cycling - for either heating or cooling purposes. There could be anomalous gain derived from Casimir heating in this kind of situation, but that is not claimed. And it is only implied if you should chose to look for it. [reply] I can see anomalous heat coming from continuous Grabowski H2D1 transformations where changes in ZPE due to suppression disassociate bonds that are then are free to re-associate and release the energy just rectified but I don't think the cooling scenario would be based on h2d1 exchange. I think suppression geometry is a segregating force - that is for areas suppressed there are always boundaries where the lower energy density inside acts like an insulator to the ambient density outside the boundary. IMHO the wind sail with a hole analogy extends to lattice and surface geometry as well as Van der Walls - anything that breaks the isotropy of energy density will have an equally opposing effect on the opposite side of its boundary condition (although not necessarily as concentrated -again like a large sail feeding a small hole). As a segregating effect time dilation can be in either direction resulting in cooling instead of heating or delays in spontaneous emission instead of acceleration depending on the location of gas atoms relative to these segregated suppression and compression fields. I think delayed spontaneous emission in waveguides may actually be due to these segregated compression fields because EM suppression should accelerate the emission rate. Like a Casimir cavity I posit the suppression to be concentrated in a small area while the compression is distributed over a much larger area more likely to interact with the gas atoms. [/reply] Regards Fran
RE: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
Jones, I inadvertently quoted you out of context in my previous reply supporting a covalent bond when you were clearly advocating hydrogen bonding. Jones Beene said on Tue, 20 Jul 2010 08:18:49 -0700 Fran, This could be an important paper for expanding the concept into an alternative method of chemical thermal cycling - for either heating or cooling purposes. There could be anomalous gain derived from Casimir heating in this kind of situation, but that is not claimed. And it is only implied if you should chose to look for it. [reply] I can see anomalous heat coming from continuous Grabowski H2D1 transformations where changes in ZPE due to suppression disassociate bonds that are then are free to re-associate and release the energy just rectified but I don't think the cooling scenario would be based on h2d1 exchange. I think suppression geometry is a segregating force - that is for areas suppressed there are always boundaries where the lower energy density inside acts like an insulator to the ambient density outside the boundary. IMHO the wind sail with a hole analogy extends to lattice and surface geometry as well as Van der Walls - anything that breaks the isotropy of energy density will have an equally opposing effect on the opposite side of its boundary condition (although not necessarily as concentrated -again like a large sail feeding a small hole). As a segregating effect time dilation can be in either direction resulting in cooling instead of heating or delays in spontaneous emission instead of acceleration depending on the location of gas atoms relative to these segregated suppression and compression fields. I think delayed spontaneous emission in waveguides may actually be due to these segregated compression fields because EM suppression should accelerate the emission rate. Like a Casimir cavity I posit the suppression to be concentrated in a small area while the compression is distributed over a much larger area more likely to interact with the gas atoms. [/reply] Regards Fran
Re: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
From http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/conferences/2010/ARL/Pres/10Grabowski-NRL-Efforts-Spanning-Tthe-Last-8-Years.pdfhttp://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/conferences/2010/ARL/Pres/10Grabowski-NRL-Efforts-Spanning-Tthe-Last-8-Years.pdf Results: * Highly reproducible, over long periods of time. * Some of irreversible heat caused by H*D exchange, but apparently not all. Is there other chemistry too? I think Grabowski might be suspecting ashless chemistry but is afraid to be lumped with Mills. I Still maintain that confined catalytic action (or change in Casimir force) can repeatedly disassociate gas molecules -pitting nature against itself until the action drives the atoms out of the cavity or destroys the geometry. He indicates the present ash does not account for all the excess heat. Fran
RE: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
From: Roarty, Francis X I think Grabowski might be suspecting ashless chemistry but is afraid to be lumped with Mills. I Still maintain that confined catalytic action (or change in Casimir force) can repeatedly disassociate gas molecules -pitting nature against itself until the action drives the atoms out of the cavity or destroys the geometry. He indicates the present ash does not account for all the excess heat. Fran Looks like he goes back long before Mills. In trying to gather more information on this, it turns out that K.S. Grabowski has followed in the footsteps of J.J Grabowski in the field of hydrogen deuterium exchange” reactions, going back quite a long time. Father - son? Also there is a new book on Amazon, which I would have ordered, were it not for the exorbitant price: http://www.amazon.com/Hydrogen-bonding-Challenges-Computational- Chemistry/dp/1402048521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 http://www.amazon.com/Hydrogen- bonding-Challenges-Computational- Chemistry/dp/1402048521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1279570538sr=8-1 s=booksqid=1279570538sr=8-1 I still cannot find the expected heating value of the exchange; however, this paper indicates that “The activation energy for the H+ ↔ D+ exchange was determined to be 2.4 eV, less than half the value obtained by pure thermal means, suggesting that under the application of an electric field the deuteron (proton) diffusion mechanism is different.” http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a755768593 Which value sounds rather high. No wonder there is some interest in this as an alternative to LENR. For that, it must be both reversible and asymmetric. + IF + … there was asymmetry in the exchange, due perhaps to the Casimir cavity, then this could be the kind of chemical modality that fits the circumstances of thermal gain well, without recourse to LERN or fractional hydrogen. And exchange-chemistry is not always symmetrical, so this cannot be ruled out. The ultimate source of gainful chemical energy then becomes something more like phase-change; and if there is net gain due to some asymmetry, then it must be due to ZPE, no? Jones
Re: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:27:04 -0700: Hi, [snip] Most CF experiments use pure D, so there is very little if any H to exchange. I also think 2.4 eV is ridiculous. The difference in ionization energy between H and D is just a few meV (small m). From: Roarty, Francis X I think Grabowski might be suspecting ashless chemistry but is afraid to be lumped with Mills. I Still maintain that confined catalytic action (or change in Casimir force) can repeatedly disassociate gas molecules -pitting nature against itself until the action drives the atoms out of the cavity or destroys the geometry. He indicates the present ash does not account for all the excess heat. Fran Looks like he goes back long before Mills. In trying to gather more information on this, it turns out that K.S. Grabowski has followed in the footsteps of J.J Grabowski in the field of hydrogen deuterium exchange¡± reactions, going back quite a long time. Father - son? Also there is a new book on Amazon, which I would have ordered, were it not for the exorbitant price: http://www.amazon.com/Hydrogen-bonding-Challenges-Computational- Chemistry/dp/1402048521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8 http://www.amazon.com/Hydrogen- bonding-Challenges-Computational- Chemistry/dp/1402048521/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1279570538sr=8-1 s=booksqid=1279570538sr=8-1 I still cannot find the expected heating value of the exchange; however, this paper indicates that ¡°The activation energy for the H+ ¡ê D+ exchange was determined to be 2.4 eV, less than half the value obtained by pure thermal means, suggesting that under the application of an electric field the deuteron (proton) diffusion mechanism is different.¡± http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a755768593 Which value sounds rather high. No wonder there is some interest in this as an alternative to LENR. For that, it must be both reversible and asymmetric. + IF + ¡¦ there was asymmetry in the exchange, due perhaps to the Casimir cavity, then this could be the kind of chemical modality that fits the circumstances of thermal gain well, without recourse to LERN or fractional hydrogen. And exchange-chemistry is not always symmetrical, so this cannot be ruled out. The ultimate source of gainful chemical energy then becomes something more like phase-change; and if there is net gain due to some asymmetry, then it must be due to ZPE, no? Jones Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/Project.html
RE: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
On Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:29 Jones Beene said The ultimate source of gainful chemical energy then becomes something more like phase-change; and if there is net gain due to some asymmetry, then it must be due to ZPE, no? from wiki : Hydrogen deuterium exchange (also called H-D or H/D exchange) is a chemical reaction in which a covalently bonded hydrogen atom is replaced by a deuterium atom, or vice versa. Jones, I didn't have a subscription for the second link and the first was only an Amazon book ad which was exorbitant - $259 but it did highlight something in the bullets for the ad Differences between H-bond and van der Waals interactions from one side and covalent bonds from the other This is similar to my own Theory that a concentrated change in casimir force/ catalytic action can disassociate a covalent bond. The Van der Walls force is a lesser cousin to Casimir force and is being depicted as an opposing force to a covalent bonding. I assume the double arrow between the H and D indicates this becomes a reversible reaction and the exchanges of h2 for d1 continue back and forth depending on the catalytic value. This is similar to my fractional ( h2 - h1 +h1) where changes in fractional value /casimir force perform the same as Grabowski proposes for Van der Walls force. His may be an easier chemical path but I suspect any of these ashless / reversible / oscillating paths will require insulation from lesser one-way paths such as oxygen or the catalytic material itself forming hydrides. If you could provide a synopsis of the Grabowski theory it would be appreciated. Best Regards Fran
Re: [Vo]:Grabowski thinks the effect the NRL is seeing is chemical
I wrote: It turns out Grabowski really does think this is a chemical reaction. I have heard this from various people, and his ICCF-14 slides hint at it, but here he states it clearly: http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/conferences/2010/ARL/Pres/05Boss-EvidenceofNuclearParticles.pdf Oops. Those are Pam's slides. I meant these: http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/conferences/2010/ARL/Pres/10Grabowski-NRL-Efforts-Spanning-Tthe-Last-8-Years.pdfhttp://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/conferences/2010/ARL/Pres/10Grabowski-NRL-Efforts-Spanning-Tthe-Last-8-Years.pdf - Jed
