Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote: I guess he could say that there is no art yet -- it's a pioneering patent, but that's a legal question. No, the patent *must* enable a PHOSITA to replicate, or it is invalid. That is the main purpose of a patent. (The other purpose is to protect the rights of the inventor.) This requirement is clearly spelled out in patent laws and at the USPO web site. QUOTE: The specification must include a written description of the invention and of the manner and process of making and using it, and is required to be in such full, clear, concise, and exact terms as to enable any person skilled in the technological area to which the invention pertains, or with which it is most nearly connected, to make and use the same. The specification must set forth the precise invention for which a patent is solicited, in such manner as to distinguish it from other inventions and from what is old. It must describe completely a specific embodiment of the process, machine, manufacture, composition of matter, or improvement invented, and must explain the mode of operation or principle whenever applicable. The best mode contemplated by the inventor for carrying out the invention must be set forth. http://www.uspto.gov/patents-getting-started/general-information-concerning-patents#heading-17 - Jed
RE: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
I guess he could say that there is no art yet -- it's a pioneering patent, but that's a legal question. From: Jed Rothwell [mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 6:48 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO, What makes Rossi tick is a tight connection between the EGO of Rossi and his E-Cat. He cannot give control of this device to someone else. Like Joe Papp, Rossi will never tell anybody how it works; valid patent or no. If other people cannot replicate the device from the patent, then by definition the patent is not valid. A person having ordinary skill in the art (PHOSITA) has to be able to replicate or a patent will be ruled invalid. - Jed --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com
Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO, What makes Rossi tick is a tight connection between the EGO of Rossi and his E-Cat. He cannot give control of this device to someone else. Like Joe Papp, Rossi will never tell anybody how it works; valid patent or no. If other people cannot replicate the device from the patent, then by definition the patent is not valid. A person having ordinary skill in the art (PHOSITA) has to be able to replicate or a patent will be ruled invalid. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
Axil I respect your theoretical broad understanding of physics. I have to say that your opinion about what drives people like Rossi is way off the mark. You know getting older (I do not know your age at all but assume you are a lot younger than I) does not mean you are in a bigger hurry to get rich and 'enjoy' life as you say. Enjoying life is to be alive and have goals, which you fulfill. I have no personal relation to Rossi. However, I can imagine his goals and it seems OK to me. I am sure he fulfill them as he see fit. The patent discussion is futile. Patents will only benefit the legal community. I agree with a.ashfield - having market shares early is important. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros www.StrategicLeadershipSac.com lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 202 Granite Park Court, Lincoln CA 95648 “Productivity is never an accident. It is always the result of a commitment to excellence, intelligent planning, and focused effort.” PJM On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 5:48 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: IMHO, What makes Rossi tick is a tight connection between the EGO of Rossi and his E-Cat. He cannot give control of this device to someone else. Like Joe Papp, Rossi will never tell anybody how it works; valid patent or no. If other people cannot replicate the device from the patent, then by definition the patent is not valid. A person having ordinary skill in the art (PHOSITA) has to be able to replicate or a patent will be ruled invalid. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
I wrote: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote: I guess he could say that there is no art yet -- it's a pioneering patent, but that's a legal question. No, the patent *must* enable a PHOSITA to replicate, or it is invalid. That is the main purpose of a patent. . . . What I am saying here is that there has to be an art. You can't claim the technique is so new that no one has the skill to replicate it. First, that would be ridiculous in the case of the Rossi device. Anyone can see it would not be difficult to replicate. Second that would be unprecedented in the history of technology. Anything that one group of skilled experts can make, another group of skilled experts can replicate, with the possible exception of a few things such as thermonuclear weapons, robot explorers on Mars, or the CERN Atlas Detector. Granted there are trade secrets which experts cannot easily reverse engineer and replicate, but that is only because the experts do not have access to the secret, not because the process is inherently too complicated to replicate, or too new to replicate. A patent must reveal all secrets. It is the opposite of a trade secret. If any aspect of it is secret, the patent is invalid. Most trade secrets survive not because they are particularly difficult to replicate but because they are not important enough to be worth the effort of reverse engineering. (In real life, most companies would not bother to reverse engineer. They would poach key employees instead.) Third, if the device was so new and unprecedented that no one could replicate it, that would mean the inventor cannot explain how to make one, which means it would not be patentable. This would also make it impossible to mass-produce. Note that valid patents often leave out what at first glance a person might consider a critical aspect of an invention. The invention might be useless without these details. For example, the Wright brothers' 1906 airplane patent did not include any information about engines or propellers. This was valid because they were not trying to patent engines and propellers. They were patenting the three-axis control method. It was also valid because everyone knew you cannot fly an airplane without an engine and propellers. You do not need to state something so obvious in a patent. Here is the patent: http://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/inventors/i/Wrights/WrightUSPatent/WrightPatent.html This patent held up very well. It survived many challenges. One of the best-known and biggest challenges was the use of wing flaps instead of wing warping. This patent was ruled broad enough to include the former. This patent was written by patent attorney H. A. Toulmin, who knew what he was doing. The Wrights first wrote a patent themselves which was summarily rejected. An amateur patent written by them would not have lasted five minutes in court. Toulmin was the one who recommended to them that they narrow the patent down to a claim for three-axis control without other details. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
Why is Rossi spending the best part of the little life that he has remaining in a shipping container for 18 hours a day? What makes a person sacrifice all the pleasures that remain in his life. What is the goal? What is the motivation. IMHO, What makes Rossi tick is a tight connection between the EGO of Rossi and his E-Cat. He cannot give control of this device to someone else. Like Joe Papp, Rossi will never tell anybody how it works; valid patent or no. Rossi does not trust anyone with the secrets that are so close to defining the very tap root of his soul. The reported replication by Parkhomov must have shaken him deeply. But he has a hoard of secrets stashed away in his hope chest of still remaining secrets to keep the power of his discovery reserved only to him. On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 10:02 PM, a.ashfield a.ashfi...@verizon.net wrote: Axil, I beg to differ a little. 1. Rossi spends a lot of time studying theory. It seems that the theory of how it works is difficult and it will take an inspired individual to crack it. Just throwing money at it may not help. 2. If Rossi comes out with a good device at the right price he will get trade name recognition. That is worth a lot. 3. The potential field is so vast there is plenty of room for competitors. He will have enough business to keep himself happy for as long as he wants to work. He has said that he is not interested in becoming ultra rich. 4. The problem I see is that others are patenting every variation and Industrial Heal may have to spend a lot of money on lawyers to be able to sell what they invented. 5. I think Rossi has more of a head start than you credit him with. Any new device has to be tested fo a long time so it is not that easy to catch up. Possibly another entirely different device may make the E-Cat obsolete, like Solar Hydrogen Trends - but does anyone know if any of them work yet? 6. There is a whole field of combining E-Cats with micro turbines (etc) to produce electricity that will also keep many busy for years. I suspect this is right up Rossi's street.
Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
Personally, if i had the ability, inventing and creating new energy sources would BE the pleasures in my life. On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Why is Rossi spending the best part of the little life that he has remaining in a shipping container for 18 hours a day? What makes a person sacrifice all the pleasures that remain in his life. What is the goal? What is the motivation. IMHO, What makes Rossi tick is a tight connection between the EGO of Rossi and his E-Cat. He cannot give control of this device to someone else. Like Joe Papp, Rossi will never tell anybody how it works; valid patent or no. Rossi does not trust anyone with the secrets that are so close to defining the very tap root of his soul. The reported replication by Parkhomov must have shaken him deeply. But he has a hoard of secrets stashed away in his hope chest of still remaining secrets to keep the power of his discovery reserved only to him. On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 10:02 PM, a.ashfield a.ashfi...@verizon.net wrote: Axil, I beg to differ a little. 1. Rossi spends a lot of time studying theory. It seems that the theory of how it works is difficult and it will take an inspired individual to crack it. Just throwing money at it may not help. 2. If Rossi comes out with a good device at the right price he will get trade name recognition. That is worth a lot. 3. The potential field is so vast there is plenty of room for competitors. He will have enough business to keep himself happy for as long as he wants to work. He has said that he is not interested in becoming ultra rich. 4. The problem I see is that others are patenting every variation and Industrial Heal may have to spend a lot of money on lawyers to be able to sell what they invented. 5. I think Rossi has more of a head start than you credit him with. Any new device has to be tested fo a long time so it is not that easy to catch up. Possibly another entirely different device may make the E-Cat obsolete, like Solar Hydrogen Trends - but does anyone know if any of them work yet? 6. There is a whole field of combining E-Cats with micro turbines (etc) to produce electricity that will also keep many busy for years. I suspect this is right up Rossi's street.
Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
Tesla on Edison: If he had a needle to find in a haystack he would not stop to reason where it was most likely to be, but would proceed at once, with the feverish diligence of a bee, to examine straw after straw until he found the object of his search. ... I was almost a sorry witness of such doings, knowing that a little theory and calculation would have saved him ninety per cent of his labor. —New York Times, October 19, 1931 (the day after Edison died)\ Like Edison, Rossi is a straw counter. His mode of working will get him only so far. He does not take the time to understand the science behind his invention. That is my opinion that few here will agree with. I understand this; QM is not popular. The reverse engineering of the E-Cat will advance QM by a huge amount in science. But the fact that Rossi totally disregards QM as the cause of LENR will seal his fate. On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi’s “too cheap to copy” strategy is naive and will break Rossi’s heart in the end. This strategy is based on the assumption that the E-Cat is the best possible form of LENR that can possibly be produced. This assumption is not true. Rossi has quite an ego to even think along those terms. The Solar Hydrogen Trends(SHT) system is a better system for many important LENR based applications. This instant on system does not take ten days to startup and it does not produce much heat. Such an improvement in technology does burn water and auminum as a consumable.There is also direct electrical conversion that would add great value to the LENR reactor concept. Take the auto engine as a very inportant LENR application for example. A instant on car engine is a good application for that mobile type of LENR application. There are train engines and plane engines and ship engines too. The Papp engine is even better than the hydrogen machine based on the kind of power that it produces. The Papp engine may be the best kind of application that LENR can produce for an engine since it generates only mechanical tork. When the powerful global big money energy players get their hands on an E-Cat and they allocate unlimited RD money, armies of quantum mechanics and their high tech analysis equipment, It won’t take long for Rossi’s E-Cat to take on the the time worn antique visage of the Edison light bulb and the Wright brothers flyer in terms of its primitive technology. Rossi will be moved out of the LENR game so fast, it will make his head spin. His fate will be the same as that of Edison, Tesla, and the Wright Brothers. We will always love and respect Rossi as the man who got LENR off the ground, but Rossi will soon lose control of his baby just like Edison and the Wright Brothers lost control of their brain children. No man can keep power indefinitely or even for very long. There is too much competition around this world for any man to do that.
Re: [Vo]:The quest for everlasting power
Axil, I beg to differ a little. 1. Rossi spends a lot of time studying theory. It seems that the theory of how it works is difficult and it will take an inspired individual to crack it. Just throwing money at it may not help. 2. If Rossi comes out with a good device at the right price he will get trade name recognition. That is worth a lot. 3. The potential field is so vast there is plenty of room for competitors. He will have enough business to keep himself happy for as long as he wants to work. He has said that he is not interested in becoming ultra rich. 4. The problem I see is that others are patenting every variation and Industrial Heal may have to spend a lot of money on lawyers to be able to sell what they invented. 5. I think Rossi has more of a head start than you credit him with. Any new device has to be tested fo a long time so it is not that easy to catch up. Possibly another entirely different device may make the E-Cat obsolete, like Solar Hydrogen Trends - but does anyone know if any of them work yet? 6. There is a whole field of combining E-Cats with micro turbines (etc) to produce electricity that will also keep many busy for years. I suspect this is right up Rossi's street.
