Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
Axil, Interesting comment. Maybe it's worth noting that the Zeno-effect (decay deceleration) and the anti-Zeno effect (decay acceleration) can coexist and "see-saw" in some some systems. See: "Observation of the Quantum Zeno and Anti-Zeno effects in an unstable system" http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0104035 "Quantum Zeno and anti-Zeno effects in an Unstable System with Two Bound State" http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0502075 Reifenschweiler's results are a real puzzle. Lou Pagnucco > In an experimental series performed by Piantelli, he observed the > production of either heat or gamma radiation but not both at the same > time, > if memory serves. > > > > From the demo of the first one liter Rossi reactor during the time at > startup when the lattice was cold, a massive radiation burst appeared for > a > second or two. From this, I deduce that the energy production mechanism > will generate large amounts of radiation if the lattice is cold and the > phonons present in the lattice are not energetic enough. > > > > One problem of that early design was the generation of bursts of radiation > during startup and shutdown. I assume that the lattice was cold at those > times. > > > > Rossi was greatly concerned by these radiation bursts, and changed his > design so that an external heater warmed the nickel lattice before the > reaction begins. > > > > This tells me that there is a second quantum mechanical reaction that > converts the radiation generated in the metal atoms nucleus to thermal > energy within the lattice. > > > > The lack of radioactive decay products after the Rossi reactor is shut > down > also speaks to a radiation thermalization mechanism rather than a > radiation > suppression mechanism. > > > > From Otto Reifenschweiler: > > > > This assumption is confirmed by the observation, that a decrease of > tritium > radioactivity is never observed with Ti-preparations which are generally > used for storage of tritium. Such preparations don.t have the above stated > properties. They consist of single and big non monocrystalline > Ti-particles, in my experience. > > > > The radiation thermalization mechanism is a surface phenomenon that is > maximized by the large surface area of nano-powder. > > > > The a variant of the quantum Zeno effect in which an unstable particle, if > observed continuously or in the case of quantum activity in a metal > lattice > cycles rapidly through repeating cycles of entanglement in a continuing > process of quantum decoherence, that particle will thermalize its nuclear > power output as thermal energy in the metal lattice. > > The originating mechanism of the nuclear energy is not caused by > vibrations > (phonons) in the lattice. However, the thermalization of that nuclear > energy is caused by the rapid cycling decoherence of the entangled metal > atoms caused by quantum phonons vibrating in that lattice. > > > > Phonons in the metal lattice will cause the energy of the unstable > particle > to be transferred away from its originating nucleus and enter the metal > lattice non-locally some large distance away. > > > > This may be why Rossi went with a micron sized particle rather than a > nano-sized particle. > > > > The question now is what particle produces the LENR energy. Speculating, > that unstable particle is probably the transition metal atom; in Rossis > case, it is the nickel atom. > > > > This nuclear reaction is very weird in the Rossi reactor where it does not > rip that lattice apart but contrary to all good sense, thermalizes the > lattice into a gentle low grade heat. > > > > I can only speculate that the entanglement mechanism provides an > otherworldly energy pipeline that gently moves energy/heat away from the > nuclear production zone. > > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Berke Durak wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:24 AM, wrote: >> > Focardi said also "not much above environment". >> > Possibly there was a dentist or internist doctor or a antique colortv >> in >> neighbourhood. >> > Possibly there where suneruptions. >> >> Solar flares, really? Read again. I have capitalized the relevant >> parts. >> >> > Before he came out, a few minutes before, I had independently >> > measured that both the gamma detector and THE MINI GEIGER HAD HIT >> > THE TOP OF THE SCALE, whereas the two detectors of electromagnetic >> > interference were not showing anything. >> >> > This meant that a SHORT BUT INTENSE EMISSION OF GAMMA RADIATION had >> > taken place. >> >> So what does that mean? >> >> > THE MINI GEIGER HAD HIT THE TOP OF THE SCALE >> >> Was the Geiger counter in unexperienced hands? No. >> What was Celardi's interpretation? This: >> >> > This meant that a SHORT BUT INTENSE EMISSION OF GAMMA RADIATION had >> >> So, no solar flares, dentists, welding apparatus, etc. Why did this >> happen? >> >> I assume this was because it was a prototype with partial shielding. >> Or maybe the reaction was pushed into an unsafe zone, or... time will >> tel
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
Axil Axil wrote: In an experimental series performed by Piantelli, he observed the production of either heat or gamma radiation but not both at the same time, if memory serves. I do not recall that, but that is a very interesting observation. In other words, a burst of gamma rays may be a precursor reaction. Takahashi and some others say that with the bulk palladium electrochemical method, neutrons may be anti-correlated with excess heat. They appear when there is no heat, and vice versa. Takahashi thought that neutrons may be generated when the lattice is insufficiently loaded. It has been a long time since I read this. As I recall Storms disputed this hypothesis because he said the lattice is never loaded evenly. One part of the bulk palladium cathode will be fully loaded while another is not. He ascribes neutrons to some conventional fusion reaction such as fracto-fusion. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:07 AM, Joshua Cude wrote: > Means nothing. What scale was it on? Did a hyperthyroid patient (treated > with I-131) walk past? It takes very little to put some meters off-scale. > And yes, some (older) welding rods can easily do it. Many old glazed ceramic > dishes will do it to, as will KCl, although the latter takes a sensitive > meter. This is getting ridiculous. The Geiger counter was on the scale that allowed Celani to say with a straight face that a short but INTENSE emission of gamma radiation had taken place. Because Celani is perfectly qualified (hello, he is working at a nuclear physics lab!), he probably wouldn't qualify as intense the radiation emitted by a bag of bananas or some irradiated mammal. Also, nuked patients walk at finite speeds. Therefore, they wouldn't register as a short spike. > Again, if cold fusion can't find some systematic, reproducible, meaningful > evidence to hang its hat on, The systematic, reproductible, meaningful evidence is the industrial amount of heat that has been harnessed by Rossi et al. over the last years. > it's just not gonna get respect from "some guy's meter went off > scale somewhere at about the right time". Deliberate "Some guy"... right. You and I are "some guy". Celani and Focardi are not. > attempts to measure radiation in correlation with the operation of ecats > have not measured anything. That should mean much more. First of all, radiation is not a necessity. If the Rossi device produces no radiation at all, that's fine by me, as long as it produces a good amount of energy. Which I don't have any reason to think that it doesn't. Secondly, did someone insert a radiation probe INSIDE the reactor? Did someone use any kind of ultra-sensitive equipment? No. They used ordinary scintillators and probes. There was a hole in the shielding, but there's plenty of material left to shield the reactions. So you just cannot say that there was or wasn't low-energy (< 200 keV) gammas. Finally, why all the hate? -- Berke Durak
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
In an experimental series performed by Piantelli, he observed the production of either heat or gamma radiation but not both at the same time, if memory serves. >From the demo of the first one liter Rossi reactor during the time at startup when the lattice was cold, a massive radiation burst appeared for a second or two. From this, I deduce that the energy production mechanism will generate large amounts of radiation if the lattice is cold and the phonons present in the lattice are not energetic enough. One problem of that early design was the generation of bursts of radiation during startup and shutdown. I assume that the lattice was cold at those times. Rossi was greatly concerned by these radiation bursts, and changed his design so that an external heater warmed the nickel lattice before the reaction begins. This tells me that there is a second quantum mechanical reaction that converts the radiation generated in the metal atom’s nucleus to thermal energy within the lattice. The lack of radioactive decay products after the Rossi reactor is shut down also speaks to a radiation thermalization mechanism rather than a radiation suppression mechanism. >From Otto Reifenschweiler: This assumption is confirmed by the observation, that a decrease of tritium radioactivity is never observed with Ti-preparations which are generally used for storage of tritium. Such preparations don.t have the above stated properties. They consist of single and big non monocrystalline Ti-particles, in my experience. The radiation thermalization mechanism is a surface phenomenon that is maximized by the large surface area of nano-powder. The a variant of the quantum Zeno effect in which an unstable particle, if observed continuously or in the case of quantum activity in a metal lattice cycles rapidly through repeating cycles of entanglement in a continuing process of quantum decoherence, that particle will thermalize its nuclear power output as thermal energy in the metal lattice. The originating mechanism of the nuclear energy is not caused by vibrations (phonons) in the lattice. However, the thermalization of that nuclear energy is caused by the rapid cycling decoherence of the entangled metal atoms caused by quantum phonons vibrating in that lattice. Phonons in the metal lattice will cause the energy of the unstable particle to be transferred away from its originating nucleus and enter the metal lattice non-locally some large distance away. This may be why Rossi went with a micron sized particle rather than a nano-sized particle. The question now is what particle produces the LENR energy. Speculating, that unstable particle is probably the transition metal atom; in Rossi’s case, it is the nickel atom. This nuclear reaction is very weird in the Rossi reactor where it does not rip that lattice apart but contrary to all good sense, thermalizes the lattice into a gentle low grade heat. I can only speculate that the entanglement mechanism provides an otherworldly energy pipeline that gently moves energy/heat away from the nuclear production zone. On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Berke Durak wrote: > On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:24 AM, wrote: > > Focardi said also "not much above environment". > > Possibly there was a dentist or internist doctor or a antique colortv in > neighbourhood. > > Possibly there where suneruptions. > > Solar flares, really? Read again. I have capitalized the relevant > parts. > > > Before he came out, a few minutes before, I had independently > > measured that both the gamma detector and THE MINI GEIGER HAD HIT > > THE TOP OF THE SCALE, whereas the two detectors of electromagnetic > > interference were not showing anything. > > > This meant that a SHORT BUT INTENSE EMISSION OF GAMMA RADIATION had > > taken place. > > So what does that mean? > > > THE MINI GEIGER HAD HIT THE TOP OF THE SCALE > > Was the Geiger counter in unexperienced hands? No. > What was Celardi's interpretation? This: > > > This meant that a SHORT BUT INTENSE EMISSION OF GAMMA RADIATION had > > So, no solar flares, dentists, welding apparatus, etc. Why did this > happen? > > I assume this was because it was a prototype with partial shielding. > Or maybe the reaction was pushed into an unsafe zone, or... time will > tell! > > > An multiply observed fact is: No Gamma above environment are > > measured with Rossis's e-cat during operation. > > Right, that's because the aim of the e-Cats is not to produce > radiation, but to produce heat. As the engineering advances, > shielding gets better, the reaction is better controlled, so there is > less and less radiation escaping. > > > None is measured with 50 ecats in operation. > > Same answer. > > > Even if screened, a little bit must come through and must be measureable. > > No, it depends on thickness and flux. Photons below < 200 keV are > easy to completely shield. See previous discussions. > > > So there is no high energy radiation inside. > > I
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Berke Durak wrote: > THE MINI GEIGER HAD HIT > > THE TOP OF THE SCALE, Means nothing. What scale was it on? Did a hyperthyroid patient (treated with I-131) walk past? It takes very little to put some meters off-scale. And yes, some (older) welding rods can easily do it. Many old glazed ceramic dishes will do it to, as will KCl, although the latter takes a sensitive meter. Again, if cold fusion can't find some systematic, reproducible, meaningful evidence to hang its hat on, it's just not gonna get respect from "some guy's meter went off scale somewhere at about the right time". Deliberate attempts to measure radiation in correlation with the operation of ecats have not measured anything. That should mean much more.
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > wrote: > > >> Focardi said also "not much above environment". >> Possibly there was a dentist or internist doctor or a antique colortv in >> neighbourhood. >> > > As I reported here, Celani said the burst was so intense both of his > meters went off the scale. > > > Very typical of cold fusion evidence. Anecdotal. Not quantitative. Apocryphal. Useless. Off-scale means nothing. Meters can have very sensitive scales. When I was treated for hyperthyroidism with I-131, I could send GM tubes off scale at a distance of meters, even on the less sensitive scales. (I was told not to hold children on my lap for a few weeks.) Salt substitute (KCl) can send some meters off scale on the most sensitive setting (from the K-40).
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:24 AM, wrote: > Focardi said also "not much above environment". > Possibly there was a dentist or internist doctor or a antique colortv in > neighbourhood. > Possibly there where suneruptions. Solar flares, really? Read again. I have capitalized the relevant parts. > Before he came out, a few minutes before, I had independently > measured that both the gamma detector and THE MINI GEIGER HAD HIT > THE TOP OF THE SCALE, whereas the two detectors of electromagnetic > interference were not showing anything. > This meant that a SHORT BUT INTENSE EMISSION OF GAMMA RADIATION had > taken place. So what does that mean? > THE MINI GEIGER HAD HIT THE TOP OF THE SCALE Was the Geiger counter in unexperienced hands? No. What was Celardi's interpretation? This: > This meant that a SHORT BUT INTENSE EMISSION OF GAMMA RADIATION had So, no solar flares, dentists, welding apparatus, etc. Why did this happen? I assume this was because it was a prototype with partial shielding. Or maybe the reaction was pushed into an unsafe zone, or... time will tell! > An multiply observed fact is: No Gamma above environment are > measured with Rossis's e-cat during operation. Right, that's because the aim of the e-Cats is not to produce radiation, but to produce heat. As the engineering advances, shielding gets better, the reaction is better controlled, so there is less and less radiation escaping. > None is measured with 50 ecats in operation. Same answer. > Even if screened, a little bit must come through and must be measureable. No, it depends on thickness and flux. Photons below < 200 keV are easy to completely shield. See previous discussions. > So there is no high energy radiation inside. If by high energy you mean on the order of MeVs, you may be right about that. But there might very well be low energy radiation. Also, there might still be high-enery radiation since the physics of the device are not understood -- how about that heavy electron shielding? -- Berke Durak
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
since we don't know the theory of operation of the reactor, and especially because the absence of gamma in nuclear reaction seems strange, we cannot rule out some change of regime, especially when temperature get abnormal... eg: if you play with U235 in big pots, sometimes, given enough quantity and temperature, it can shortly diverge. some japanese workers have died of such mistake. anyway, should investigate, but with the secrecy (because if IP battle in preparation), and lack of mainstream research, it is hard to make good experiments... at least I would (I have in fact) advice Defkalion to include a radiation detector to shut-down the reactor in case of strange burst of radiation. nb: what is funny for me is how we, the humans, have forgotten about experimental science when we have no theory... the reality of ignorance is no more understood... 2011/12/7 > n multiply observed fact is: No Gamma above environment are measured with > Rossis's e-cat during operation
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
wrote: > Focardi said also "not much above environment". > Possibly there was a dentist or internist doctor or a antique colortv in > neighbourhood. > As I reported here, Celani said the burst was so intense both of his meters went off the scale. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
- Original Nachricht Von: Berke Durak An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 07.12.2011 14:48 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor > Francesco Celani is a professor at the Italian National Institute of > Nuclear Physics. He performed measurements on the Rossi device. > > Sergio Focardi, emeritus professor physics, confirms what Celani said: > there were gamma emissions during the functioning of the device. > > --- 00:23:37 | Focardi > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7lAlzMBzLQ&t=23m37s > > > During the first experiments, when we were working in Bondeno, we > > were using an open experimental system, and on those occasions I was > > using a Geiger detector, set for the gamma scale, through which I > > verified the presence of gamma emissions during its functioning. > Focardi said also "not much above environment". Possibly there was a dentist or internist doctor or a antique colortv in neighbourhood. Possibly there where suneruptions. He did not give more details, and so everything can be believed or not believed. An multiply observed fact is: No Gamma above environment are measured with Rossis's e-cat during operation. None is measured with 50 ecats in operation. Even if screened, a little bit must come through and must be measureable. So there is no high energy radiation inside. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
Francesco Celani is a professor at the Italian National Institute of Nuclear Physics. He performed measurements on the Rossi device. Sergio Focardi, emeritus professor physics, confirms what Celani said: there were gamma emissions during the functioning of the device. --- 00:23:37 | Focardi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7lAlzMBzLQ&t=23m37s > During the first experiments, when we were working in Bondeno, we > were using an open experimental system, and on those occasions I was > using a Geiger detector, set for the gamma scale, through which I > verified the presence of gamma emissions during its functioning. -- Berke Durak
Re: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor
Probably Rossi used some duct tape to repair the reactor. This makes Gamma rays ;-) Honestly, after all was happened, better: NOT happened, such a singular observation is without worth. Of course there might be a strange mechanism producing gamma rays, possibly a welding apparatus or another industrial x-ray apparatus in neighbourhood, but this proves nothing. It is an industrial location and the source of the rays is unknown and so it is ridiculous to discuss this. Peter - Original Nachricht Von: Berke Durak An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Datum: 07.12.2011 14:08 Betreff: [Vo]:Celani: gamma spike during ignition of Rossi reactor > On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Mary Yugo wrote: > >> Remember that guy who measured a gamma spike while Rossi was adjusting > >> a reactor in the other room? > > > > I don't. Is there a link or citation? (thanks) > > Now there is: see my transcript of the LENR documentary: > > http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg58293.html > > It was Celani. Here is the relevant part. > > > After various vicissitudes, because the reactor was having major > > problems, some inner resistors had broken down, Mr. Rossi came out > > of the room delighted: "The reactor has started". Before he came > > out, a few minutes before, I had independently measured that both > > the gamma detector and the mini Geiger had hit the top of the scale, > > whereas the two detectors of electromagnetic interference were not > > showing anything. > > > This meant that a short but intense emission of gamma radiation had > > taken place. > -- > Berke Durak > >
