Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Alain Sepeda]

more diplomatically I make a contribution. no edit...
I keep the evidences (as pdf)
http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?2481-Wikipedia-self-appointed-guardian-erased-Elforsk-article-in-2-minutes&p=5906#post5906




2013/10/26 Alain Sepeda 

> we should propose to the erased a contract:
> - if the LENR is proven you are fired
> or you let the data leak.
>
> normally he will wait to be fired because of Groupthink & collective
> Delusion.
>
>
> 2013/10/26 Jed Rothwell 
>
>> Alan Fletcher  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>  Gee ..   a very bland summary on wiki lasted all of 2 minutes :
>>>
>>> In September 2013 the Swedish Electrical Utilities’ R & D Company
>>> Elforsk . . .
>>
>>
>> Do you mean you added this to the Wikipedia "cold fusion" article? And
>> within 2 minutes someone erased it? They must have an automated tool
>> telling them someone has changed the article. They guard it well, like
>> demons at the gates of hell.
>>
>> - Jed
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Alain Sepeda]

we should propose to the erased a contract:
- if the LENR is proven you are fired
or you let the data leak.

normally he will wait to be fired because of Groupthink & collective
Delusion.


2013/10/26 Jed Rothwell 

> Alan Fletcher  wrote:
>
>
>>  Gee ..   a very bland summary on wiki lasted all of 2 minutes :
>>
>> In September 2013 the Swedish Electrical Utilities’ R & D Company Elforsk
>> . . .
>
>
> Do you mean you added this to the Wikipedia "cold fusion" article? And
> within 2 minutes someone erased it? They must have an automated tool
> telling them someone has changed the article. They guard it well, like
> demons at the gates of hell.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Jed Rothwell]

Alan Fletcher  wrote:


> Gee ..   a very bland summary on wiki lasted all of 2 minutes :
>
> In September 2013 the Swedish Electrical Utilities’ R & D Company Elforsk
> . . .


Do you mean you added this to the Wikipedia "cold fusion" article? And
within 2 minutes someone erased it? They must have an automated tool
telling them someone has changed the article. They guard it well, like
demons at the gates of hell.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Alan Fletcher]

From: "Alain Sepeda"  
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:32:29 PM 

Gee ..   a very bland summary on wiki lasted all of 2 minutes :

In September 2013 the Swedish Electrical Utilities’ R & D Company Elforsk 
included in their "Perspectives" report a two-page section on [[Cold Fusion]], 
with particular attention to Rossi's eCat, and the test by Levi et al, which 
Elforsk partly funded.

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Alain Sepeda]

another good reason not to show your latest model is
- avoiding triggering fierce fear from competitors
http://www.focus.it/fileflash/energia/fusioneFredda/FF_doc/2009-06-25_NASA-GRC-Millis_AnomalousHeatEffect.pdf
  ( extract is summarized there
http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?804-Why-Reactors-demo-and-proofs-are-so-weak&highlight=millis
 )

- not leaking some secrets

For some reason I will give a 1cent advice: for those who have IP which may
interest others, protect it from high-profile spies (IT and ground-based),
and from even friendly visitors.
Not a joke. things get serious. no need to ask why Elforsk, Enel, ST Micro,
toyota, mitsubishi fund lenr.

2013/10/24 Jed Rothwell 

> Eric Walker  wrote:
>
> I recall seeing a link to slides somewhere on this list with advice to
>> people giving demos -- something to the effect that you should demo an
>> earlier model rather than your latest one.
>>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Jed Rothwell]

Eric Walker  wrote:

I recall seeing a link to slides somewhere on this list with advice to
> people giving demos -- something to the effect that you should demo an
> earlier model rather than your latest one.
>

Sure. That's often prudent. The latest version may not be debugged. It
might fail unexpectedly, whereas with a previous version you know the
weaknesses and the work-arounds. A software developer working on version
3.5 prefers to show 3.4 to a potential customer.

To take an actual example, when Rossi handed the Hot cat to ELFORSK for
testing, I'll bet he did not think it would melt! An earlier, cooler model
would not have melted. So, to make a good impression he should have stuck
with an earlier model. But, to show them the most impressive performance
and the most definitive result, he gave them most recent version, even
though it was unstable.

Defkalion's demo device was not one generation behind what they claimed
they had years ago. It was extremely crude compared to that. So I guess
they were exaggerating years earlier. I guess so, but I do not know what to
make of those people.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Eric Walker]

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 3:02 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

If they had something like a commercial prototype years ago, suitable for
> testing, why are they still working with this crude gadget?
>

I recall seeing a link to slides somewhere on this list with advice to
people giving demos -- something to the effect that you should demo an
earlier model rather than your latest one.

Eric

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Jed Rothwell]

By the way, there is NOTHING wrong with a crude prototype device. See the
first transistor:

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/talk/transistor.gif

An early Diesel engine, probably better than the prototype that exploded:

http://image.dieselpowermag.com/f/features/0912dp_rudolph_diesel/25492076/0912dp_02%2Brudolph_diesel%2Bsingle_cylinder_diesel_engine.jpg

See any airplane made before 1912, especially the improbable ones such as
this, designed by Alexander Graham Bell:

http://www.century-of-flight.net/Aviation%20history/up%20to%20WW%201/images/3a.jpg

Not one of his better efforts.

We don't need practical devices at this stage. We need working devices that
can be tested. No one should care whether a device is practical or not. If
we can persuade the public this is real, billions of dollars will be spent
converting today's crude prototypes into practical devices.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Jed Rothwell]

Alain Sepeda  wrote:

I agree that Elforsk and all evidence we have don't eliminate the risk that
> E-cat does not work well... that it is unstable, unreliable, or have
> problems...
>

Yes. On the contrary, the ELFORSK paper shows that it is unstable. It
melted!

The Hotcat version is clearly not ready for commercial use. I do not know
whether the low temperature versions are ready. Frankly, I doubt they are.
I do not think any cold fusion device should be allowed on the market until
production line models have been subjected to millions of hours of testing
in hundreds of different labs and places like Underwriter's Laboratory.

We do not allow automobiles to be sold until they have been crash tested.
Those tests cost many millions of dollars for each model. It is a small
price to pay for automobile safety.

The notion that cold fusion devices can be sold to corporations or
individuals now, in this primitive state of development, is a reflection of
the amateur status of the research. If Rossi and the people at Defkalion
seriously believe they might start sales in a year or two, even before they
crank out a few thousand devices to be safety tested, they are either
naive, ignorant of safety standards, or they are trying to sell investors a
bill of goods.

Defkalion used to claim their devices were being safety tested by the Greek
government. I didn't believe it then, and I sure don't believe it now,
having seen their demonstration. Who on earth would test that for safety!?
We can't even be sure it is working, given the problems measuring the flow
rate. It is a crude, laboratory prototype. If they had something like a
commercial prototype years ago, suitable for testing, why are they still
working with this crude gadget? I will grant it is no more crude or
unreliable than any other cold fusion device, but no government agency
would subject it to consumer product safety testing. That's absurd.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Alain Sepeda]

I agree that Elforsk and all evidence we have don't eliminate the risk that
E-cat does not work well... that it is unstable, unreliable, or have
problems...

what this article rules out is that e-cat does not exist, is not working at
all, is a fraud...

of course some will try to stick on their position taht it is a fraud,
because if it is not a fraud, it mean that LENr is real, and that the
physicists claims in 89 were absurds, and all the others claims who
parroted the initial ones, were absurds parroting with less and less
 excuse with time passing.

in fact this "less and less excuse" explain the desperate delusion... they
are like the last square of soldiers who know that they will die in the
battle, because they will have too many opponents blood on their hand.

denying LENr today is pff...

you can be prudent, careful, expert murphism, denounce exaggerations... but
denying all is denialism.


2013/10/23 Jed Rothwell 

> Blaze Spinnaker  wrote:
>
>  Impressive.   Looks like Elforsk has decided that the May report has
>> some merit.
>>
>
> As noted they already said that in the previous press release: "The
> measurements show that the catalyst gives substantially more energy than
> can be explained by ordinary chemical reactions." I doubt they would have
> approved the Levi paper acknowledgement for publication if they did not
> think it has merit. (I mean they would have asked Levi et al. to remove
> their name from the paper.) Organizations such as ELFORSK and EPRI are
> careful about what they endorse.
>
>
>
>> This is definitely an event which increases the probability of what Rossi
>> is doing will work.
>>
>
> You mean this increases your confidence that what Rossi is doing will
> work. The actual likelihood that it will work depends on physics, and on
> Rossi's skill.
>
>  I agree this boosts Rossi's credibility. The actual EFORSK report was a
> bigger boost, but this helps. I look forward to the overview in this
> month's edition of the "Perspectives." This is good for cold fusion.
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Jed Rothwell]

Blaze Spinnaker  wrote:

Impressive.   Looks like Elforsk has decided that the May report has some
> merit.
>

As noted they already said that in the previous press release: "The
measurements show that the catalyst gives substantially more energy than
can be explained by ordinary chemical reactions." I doubt they would have
approved the Levi paper acknowledgement for publication if they did not
think it has merit. (I mean they would have asked Levi et al. to remove
their name from the paper.) Organizations such as ELFORSK and EPRI are
careful about what they endorse.



> This is definitely an event which increases the probability of what Rossi
> is doing will work.
>

You mean this increases your confidence that what Rossi is doing will work.
The actual likelihood that it will work depends on physics, and on Rossi's
skill.

I agree this boosts Rossi's credibility. The actual EFORSK report was a
bigger boost, but this helps. I look forward to the overview in this
month's edition of the "Perspectives." This is good for cold fusion.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Alain Sepeda]

It is a finding from david...he posted it on the forum.
probably from the mouth of the horse... ;-)


2013/10/23 Jed Rothwell 

> Alain:
>
> Thanks for posting this. Do you know where the original Swedish document
> is?
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Blaze Spinnaker]

Impressive.   Looks like Elforsk has decided that the May report has some
merit.

This is definitely an event which increases the probability of what Rossi
is doing will work.


On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Sunil Shah  wrote:

> An overview is to be expected. The final paragraph says:
>
> "There are an estimated 20 something players, who in one way or another
> are active or doing research in the cold fusion domain.  On behalf of
> Elforsk, an overview of the current stance in research, findings, etc., is
> being compiled.  The overview will be available on Elforsk's web page in
> October."
>
> .s
>

RE: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Sunil Shah]

An overview is to be expected. The final paragraph says:

"There are an estimated 20 something players, who in one way or another are 
active or doing research in the cold fusion domain.  On behalf of Elforsk, an 
overview of the current stance in research, findings, etc., is being compiled.  
The overview will be available on Elforsk's web page in October."

.s
  

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Jed Rothwell]

Thank you!


Frank Acland  wrote:

> This will take you to the original Swedish document
>
>
> http://www.elforsk.se/Global/Trycksaker%20och%20broschyrer/elforsk_perspektiv_nr2_2013.pdf
>


>

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Frank Acland]

This will take you to the original Swedish document

http://www.elforsk.se/Global/Trycksaker%20och%20broschyrer/elforsk_perspektiv_nr2_2013.pdf


On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 7:38 PM, Alan Fletcher  wrote:

>
>
> --
> *From: *"Jed Rothwell" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:21:22 PM
> Thanks for posting this. Do you know where the original Swedish document
> is?
>
>
> http://www.lenr-forum.com/attachment.php?s=6bf9aec8478c3175b2342cabf9c36a65&attachmentid=95&d=1382468657
>
> Needs registration --  I didn't get it.
>
>


-- 
Frank Acland
Publisher, E-Cat World 

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Alan Fletcher]

- Original Message -

From: "Jed Rothwell"  
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 5:21:22 PM 
Thanks for posting this. Do you know where the original Swedish document is? 

http://www.lenr-forum.com/attachment.php?s=6bf9aec8478c3175b2342cabf9c36a65&attachmentid=95&d=1382468657
 

Needs registration -- I didn't get it. 

Re: [Vo]:Elforsk publish a "perspective" mini magazine, with E-cat among the stars

[Jed Rothwell]

Alain:

Thanks for posting this. Do you know where the original Swedish document is?

- Jed