Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
In reply to Eric Walker's message of Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:04:00 -0800: Hi, There is another problem I have with the Rydberg option. I would expect elongated atoms to orient themselves in exactly the opposite direction to that needed to facilitate fusion, i.e. with the proton as *far* from the target nucleus as possible. On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 12:30 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Is there such a thing as deformed Rydberg H2 (as opposed to H)? I'm not too familiar with the details, but it looks like you can get Rydberg H2. http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v95/i13/e133202 I suspect there will be deformation under a field, but I'm not sure. Eric Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
Maybe there is an application to be found in *reducing* the fusion cross section. ;) Eric On Nov 14, 2012, at 12:17, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Eric Walker's message of Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:04:00 -0800: Hi, There is another problem I have with the Rydberg option. I would expect elongated atoms to orient themselves in exactly the opposite direction to that needed to facilitate fusion, i.e. with the proton as *far* from the target nucleus as possible.
RE: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
-Original Message- From: Eric Walker Maybe there is an [IRH] application to be found in *reducing* the fusion cross section. ;) It was suggested years ago that a hybrid of Hot Fusion and LENR might be possible, especially with so-called desktop accelerators and extreme loading ratios characteristic of cold fusion. The overhead cost of hot fusion must come down by an order of magnitude before it makes sense. Perhaps the easiest way to imagine this kind of hot-cold-hybrid would be based on ICF (inertial confinement) ... where the cost savings comes from using LENR loading techniques to manufacture implosion pellets for irradiation via coherent beam compression; such as to implode targets with semiconductor laser arrays or electron beams based on small Wakefield accelerators. This kind of device could conceivably fit in a modified airplane, for instance, if the reactions were largely neutron free. The Winterberg/Bae plan was mentioned here a few years ago, and then went quiet; but seems not to have languished ... but also not to have made a breakthrough. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg34994.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/09/conjectured-metastable-super-explosives.htm l http://ykbcorp.com/news.html Jones attachment: winmail.dat
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Perhaps the easiest way to imagine this kind of hot-cold-hybrid would be based on ICF (inertial confinement) ... where the cost savings comes from using LENR loading techniques to manufacture implosion pellets for irradiation via coherent beam compression; such as to implode targets with semiconductor laser arrays or electron beams based on small Wakefield accelerators. See also: Rout, R.K., et al., Detection of high tritium activity on the central titanium electrode of a plasma focus device. Fusion Technol., 1991. 19: p. 391. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RoutRKdetectiono.pdf - Jed
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
Neutrinos knock off protons thru Beta Decay, bad for DNA, what can I say...
Stewart
Darkmattersalot.com
On Wednesday, November 14, 2012, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'jone...@pacbell.net'); wrote:
Perhaps the easiest way to imagine this kind of hot-cold-hybrid would be
based on ICF (inertial confinement) ... where the cost savings comes from
using LENR loading techniques to manufacture implosion pellets for
irradiation via coherent beam compression; such as to implode targets with
semiconductor laser arrays or electron beams based on small Wakefield
accelerators.
See also:
Rout, R.K., et al., Detection of high tritium activity on the central
titanium electrode of a
plasma focus device. Fusion Technol., 1991. 19: p. 391.
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RoutRKdetectiono.pdf
- Jed
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
There's actually a whole spectrum of these ideas, correct? For example Robin's concept of using an MCF device as a source of 14.1MeV neutrons to force fission in actinides (e.g. nuclear waste). Has anyone tried to summarize or assemble a list of these? It could span from the completely mainstream (I think Robin's concept is completely mainstream from a physics standpoint) to the completely, well, you know. ;-) Jeff On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:25 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: -Original Message- From: Eric Walker Maybe there is an [IRH] application to be found in *reducing* the fusion cross section. ;) It was suggested years ago that a hybrid of Hot Fusion and LENR might be possible, especially with so-called desktop accelerators and extreme loading ratios characteristic of cold fusion. The overhead cost of hot fusion must come down by an order of magnitude before it makes sense. Perhaps the easiest way to imagine this kind of hot-cold-hybrid would be based on ICF (inertial confinement) ... where the cost savings comes from using LENR loading techniques to manufacture implosion pellets for irradiation via coherent beam compression; such as to implode targets with semiconductor laser arrays or electron beams based on small Wakefield accelerators. This kind of device could conceivably fit in a modified airplane, for instance, if the reactions were largely neutron free. The Winterberg/Bae plan was mentioned here a few years ago, and then went quiet; but seems not to have languished ... but also not to have made a breakthrough. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg34994.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/09/conjectured-metastable-super-explosives.htm l http://ykbcorp.com/news.html Jones
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
In reply to Eric Walker's message of Mon, 12 Nov 2012 21:42:01 -0800: Hi, [snip] On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 12:39 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: All of these are explained if the active particle is a f/H molecule. 1. The molecule is neutral, thus is not bothered by the Ni electrons. 2. There are no gamma rays because only one of the two protons fuses, the other being ejected carrying the energy of the reaction. Fusion primarily with 62Ni 64Ni yields stable copper isotopes. 3. Heat is deposited to the substrate by fast protons. 4. The fact that the molecule is neutral gets it close enough to the nucleus to make tunneling possible. Nice trick. Now I have a better sense of some of the strengths of the f/H approach. Is there any reason these things could not happen with Rydberg H2 (in contrast to inverse-Rydberg H2), deformed under an electromagnetic field, where the nuclei are far to one end of the electron shells? Is there such a thing as deformed Rydberg H2 (as opposed to H)? Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 12:30 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Is there such a thing as deformed Rydberg H2 (as opposed to H)? I'm not too familiar with the details, but it looks like you can get Rydberg H2. http://prl.aps.org/abstract/PRL/v95/i13/e133202 I suspect there will be deformation under a field, but I'm not sure. Eric
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 12:39 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: All of these are explained if the active particle is a f/H molecule. 1. The molecule is neutral, thus is not bothered by the Ni electrons. 2. There are no gamma rays because only one of the two protons fuses, the other being ejected carrying the energy of the reaction. Fusion primarily with 62Ni 64Ni yields stable copper isotopes. 3. Heat is deposited to the substrate by fast protons. 4. The fact that the molecule is neutral gets it close enough to the nucleus to make tunneling possible. Nice trick. Now I have a better sense of some of the strengths of the f/H approach. Is there any reason these things could not happen with Rydberg H2 (in contrast to inverse-Rydberg H2), deformed under an electromagnetic field, where the nuclei are far to one end of the electron shells? Eric
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 8:06 PM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: Are Ni+H Nuclear-Reactions Possible www.iscmns.org/work10/TakahashiAarenihnucl.ppt I see now where you're coming from. There has been an ongoing question of whether there is proton capture with the nickel atoms themselves, and I think Andrea Rossi had said something to this effect at some point. I had sort of put the question of Ni+p proton capture out of my mind somehow. I have been under the impression that if there is proton-, deuteron- or pseudo-neutron capture taking place, it would be primarily with impurity atoms (Cu, Zn, Co, Li, etc.) or with other species of hydrogen (e.g., p+d and d+d). In the slides, Takahashi raises several objections to Ni+p: 1. Ni+p is implausible because the proton would get caught up in the outer electron shells before it made it to the nucleus. 2. There should be lethal doses of gamma rays. 3. Decay modes of the daughters do not provide a way to deposit heat to the substrate. 4. There's no quantitatively-proven mechanism to overcome the Coulomb repulsion. These points go well beyond my knowledge. I have read somewhere that (1) is not an issue. Points (2) and (4) have been raised since 1989 in connection with Pd/D, so one has to be willing to suspend disbelief on them to entertain many of the explanations that are currently going around. Objection (3) is very interesting, and I'll now pay more attention to what he might have in mind here. Eric
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
In reply to Eric Walker's message of Sun, 11 Nov 2012 11:13:34 -0800: Hi, [snip] In the slides, Takahashi raises several objections to Ni+p: 1. Ni+p is implausible because the proton would get caught up in the outer electron shells before it made it to the nucleus. 2. There should be lethal doses of gamma rays. 3. Decay modes of the daughters do not provide a way to deposit heat to the substrate. 4. There's no quantitatively-proven mechanism to overcome the Coulomb repulsion. All of these are explained if the active particle is a f/H molecule. 1. The molecule is neutral, thus is not bothered by the Ni electrons. 2. There are no gamma rays because only one of the two protons fuses, the other being ejected carrying the energy of the reaction. Fusion primarily with 62Ni 64Ni yields stable copper isotopes. 3. Heat is deposited to the substrate by fast protons. 4. The fact that the molecule is neutral gets it close enough to the nucleus to make tunneling possible. The reported 6.7 MeV protons could be an average of the 6.122 MeV 7.453 MeV protons expected from proton fusion with 62Ni 64Ni respectively. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:11 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: Also, the document claims that high energy protons are emitted (6.7 MeV from Ni, page 4). I believe Piantelli has recorded high energy protons from previous experiments, even hours after the experiment finished. Has this been confirmed in other labs? Energetic protons are a common finding in the CR-39 experiments. Eric
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
The paper is quite long. Perhaps I am misunderstanding some of it, but I think the claim is that proton capture occurs as the major energy source. Hasn't Takahashi shown it's pretty unlikely? Also, I could be recalling incorrectly, but haven't Rossi/Focardi changed their opinion on this? And, finally do you understand the reasoning on how protons surmount the coulomb barrier? On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:11 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: Also, the document claims that high energy protons are emitted (6.7 MeV from Ni, page 4). I believe Piantelli has recorded high energy protons from previous experiments, even hours after the experiment finished. Has this been confirmed in other labs? Energetic protons are a common finding in the CR-39 experiments. Eric
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 1:47 PM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: The paper is quite long. Perhaps I am misunderstanding some of it, but I think the claim is that proton capture occurs as the major energy source. Hasn't Takahashi shown it's pretty unlikely? If you or anyone else knows of a relevant link, I would be interested in reading it. My own take on Takahashi's theoretical work is that his explorations are just that, and nothing to base a conclusion about the likelihood of proton capture upon, for example, but I could be wrong. By contrast, in my mind the transmutation results, if they can be substantiated, lend credence to proton-, deuteron- or some pseudo-neutron capture approach. The main reason for this is that the shifts are generally to stable isotopes, and there are few of the activated isotopes you would normally expect from a process that involves neutron capture. Here I am infinitely out of my area of expertise. But assuming the transmutation results are not all artifact, it seems like any explanation will have to address the general shift to stable isotopes. Also, I could be recalling incorrectly, but haven't Rossi/Focardi changed their opinion on this? Perhaps David will have the latest scoop on this? And, finally do you understand the reasoning on how protons surmount the coulomb barrier? If I understand what Piantelli is saying, the explanation is something like this: 1. Molecular hydrogen (H2) enters the transition metal and is dissociated and reduced to H- ions. 2. An H- ion is captured in an outer shell of a transition metal atom (and I think he's saying this causes heat). 3. The H- ion is expelled from the metal atom as a proton, leading to a proton-capture reaction with a secondary material such as lithium or boron. I have no opinion on the plausibility of this explanation, except that it sounds a little implausible. :) Note that any high-energy protons that are witnessed in experiments could be the result of various things, including a neutron-capture reaction that leads to a proton as one of the daughters. In that case proton capture doesn't need to play a part. Eric
Re: [Vo]:High energy protons emissions/Nov.1 Piantelli Patent
Eric, I cannot identify the correct theory, but in case you haven't seen a couple of Takahashi's publications, see - Are Ni+H Nuclear-Reactions Possible www.iscmns.org/work10/TakahashiAarenihnucl.ppt and the related - Physics of Cold Fusion by TSC Theory http://vixra.org/pdf/1209.0091v1.pdf Eric Walker wrote on Sat, 10 Nov 2012 14:16:00: On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 1:47 PM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote: The paper is quite long. Perhaps I am misunderstanding some of it, but I think the claim is that proton capture occurs as the major energy source. Hasn't Takahashi shown it's pretty unlikely? If you or anyone else knows of a relevant link, I would be interested in reading it. My own take on Takahashi's theoretical work is that his explorations are just that, and nothing to base a conclusion about the likelihood of proton capture upon, for example, but I could be wrong. By contrast, in my mind the transmutation results, if they can be substantiated, lend credence to proton-, deuteron- or some pseudo-neutron capture approach. The main reason for this is that the shifts are generally to stable isotopes, and there are few of the activated isotopes you would normally expect from a process that involves neutron capture. Here I am infinitely out of my area of expertise. But assuming the transmutation results are not all artifact, it seems like any explanation will have to address the general shift to stable isotopes. Also, I could be recalling incorrectly, but haven't Rossi/Focardi changed their opinion on this? Perhaps David will have the latest scoop on this? And, finally do you understand the reasoning on how protons surmount the coulomb barrier? If I understand what Piantelli is saying, the explanation is something like this: 1. Molecular hydrogen (H2) enters the transition metal and is dissociated and reduced to H- ions. 2. An H- ion is captured in an outer shell of a transition metal atom (and I think he's saying this causes heat). 3. The H- ion is expelled from the metal atom as a proton, leading to a proton-capture reaction with a secondary material such as lithium or boron. I have no opinion on the plausibility of this explanation, except that it sounds a little implausible. :) Note that any high-energy protons that are witnessed in experiments could be the result of various things, including a neutron-capture reaction that leads to a proton as one of the daughters. In that case proton capture doesn't need to play a part. Eric
