Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
This is like asking anyone would buy a Data General Supernova minicomputer in 1979, knowing that in a few years personal computers would become available with far better price/performance ratios. Analogies like that don't apply. Early computers were expensive but there was no alternative. Yes, people knew that raw computing power per dollar would rocket sky high in few years - and yet they just had to buy the expensive stuff if they wanted the work done right then. All Rossi's machines do is produce heat. You can have that from hundreds of cheap devices and all Rossi's device has over them is a theoretical cost advantage in the (very) long run. So why would anybody buy unproven technology today that eventually breaks even in a couple of years when even the manufacturer himself says that the price is going to drop dramatically in a fraction of that time? It doesn't make any sense what so ever. Except if you do NOT want people to buy the expensive machines but keep them waiting for another year or so. I can only interpret Rossi's current talk about super-cheap e-cats in the near future as an elaborate excuse for not selling anything today.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Yamali, 450 deg C E-Cats 1 MW industrial plants are not 60 deg C 10 kW home E-Cats. You can use just about any coolant at 60 deg C. At 450 deg C you are talking about molten salts. Whole different set of engineering challenges. The home E-Cat is probably just a squashed version of the copper Door Knob earlier reactor, cleaned up a bit. Nothing there. Simple as it can get. Probably straight through flow path with some internal fins for better heat transfer. Easy Peazie. Most will run at around 60 deg C. No steam or high pressure. Plastic pipe and click fittings stuff. Well ok a bit more but not much. Most new Aussie HW systems are plumbed in plastic today. However dealing with 450 deg C coolant is not simple nor easy. High pressures and high temperatures. Very different beast that can bite hard if something breaks or goes wrong. AG On 1/15/2012 10:58 PM, Yamali Yamali wrote: This is like asking anyone would buy a Data General Supernova minicomputer in 1979, knowing that in a few years personal computers would become available with far better price/performance ratios. Analogies like that don't apply. Early computers were expensive but there was no alternative. Yes, people knew that raw computing power per dollar would rocket sky high in few years - and yet they just had to buy the expensive stuff if they wanted the work done right then. All Rossi's machines do is produce heat. You can have that from hundreds of cheap devices and all Rossi's device has over them is a theoretical cost advantage in the (very) long run. So why would anybody buy unproven technology today that eventually breaks even in a couple of years when even the manufacturer himself says that the price is going to drop dramatically in a fraction of that time? It doesn't make any sense what so ever. Except if you do NOT want people to buy the expensive machines but keep them waiting for another year or so. I can only interpret Rossi's current talk about super-cheap e-cats in the near future as an elaborate excuse for not selling anything today.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
450 deg C E-Cats 1 MW industrial plants are not 60 deg C 10 kW home E-Cats You're right, of course. I thought we were talking about the 100 C thing in the shipping container. Where can I find specs for a 450 C version?
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
In reply to Mary Yugo's message of Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:54:16 -0800: Hi, I think the price of the 10 kW modules is just a projected price, and is probably more likely to be a manufacturing cost price than what he can really sell them for. Furthermore, I think that when the factory for the small units really kicks into high gear, the price of the 1 MW units will come down accordingly. Sorry if this was discussed and I missed it but a new set of Rossi says is creating cognitive dissonance in several places. Rossi says on his blog that the price of his so-called megawatt plant has been reduced from $2 million to $1.5 million. But he projects that starting within a year, his 10kW devices will sell for $50/kW. $50 per kW is only $50,000 per megawatt. Why would anyone pay a million and a half dollars for something you could assemble yourself, albeit in a more modular form for $50,000? Perhaps Rossi should buy his own 10kW modules to put together his megawatt plant. Wasn't that what he did for his supposed first customer anyway? Best I recall even he claimed only 470 kW from more than 50 modules. This Rossi Says should be over the top for even the most enthusiastic believer. (first noticed, far as I know, by Alsetalokin on the moletrap forum: http://www.moletrap.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2212page=709 ) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
In the interview, Rossi said the customer price would be $500 for a 10 kW E-Cat. AG On 1/15/2012 10:57 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Mary Yugo's message of Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:54:16 -0800: Hi, I think the price of the 10 kW modules is just a projected price, and is probably more likely to be a manufacturing cost price than what he can really sell them for. Furthermore, I think that when the factory for the small units really kicks into high gear, the price of the 1 MW units will come down accordingly. Sorry if this was discussed and I missed it but a new set of Rossi says is creating cognitive dissonance in several places. Rossi says on his blog that the price of his so-called megawatt plant has been reduced from $2 million to $1.5 million. But he projects that starting within a year, his 10kW devices will sell for $50/kW. $50 per kW is only $50,000 per megawatt. Why would anyone pay a million and a half dollars for something you could assemble yourself, albeit in a more modular form for $50,000? Perhaps Rossi should buy his own 10kW modules to put together his megawatt plant. Wasn't that what he did for his supposed first customer anyway? Best I recall even he claimed only 470 kW from more than 50 modules. This Rossi Says should be over the top for even the most enthusiastic believer. (first noticed, far as I know, by Alsetalokin on the moletrap forum: http://www.moletrap.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2212page=709 ) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Rossi says the domestic E-Cat is in UL certification. AG On 1/15/2012 10:57 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Mary Yugo's message of Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:54:16 -0800: Hi, I think the price of the 10 kW modules is just a projected price, and is probably more likely to be a manufacturing cost price than what he can really sell them for. Furthermore, I think that when the factory for the small units really kicks into high gear, the price of the 1 MW units will come down accordingly. Sorry if this was discussed and I missed it but a new set of Rossi says is creating cognitive dissonance in several places. Rossi says on his blog that the price of his so-called megawatt plant has been reduced from $2 million to $1.5 million. But he projects that starting within a year, his 10kW devices will sell for $50/kW. $50 per kW is only $50,000 per megawatt. Why would anyone pay a million and a half dollars for something you could assemble yourself, albeit in a more modular form for $50,000? Perhaps Rossi should buy his own 10kW modules to put together his megawatt plant. Wasn't that what he did for his supposed first customer anyway? Best I recall even he claimed only 470 kW from more than 50 modules. This Rossi Says should be over the top for even the most enthusiastic believer. (first noticed, far as I know, by Alsetalokin on the moletrap forum: http://www.moletrap.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2212page=709 ) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
In reply to Aussie Guy E-Cat's message of Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:04:53 +1030: Hi, [snip] In the interview, Rossi said the customer price would be $500 for a 10 kW E-Cat. AG I sincerely hope it is. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Size of a portable computer. Refill works like refilling a ball point pen. AG On 1/15/2012 11:09 AM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Aussie Guy E-Cat's message of Sun, 15 Jan 2012 11:04:53 +1030: Hi, [snip] In the interview, Rossi said the customer price would be $500 for a 10 kW E-Cat. AG I sincerely hope it is. :) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
RE: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
From Aussie: Rossi says the domestic E-Cat is in UL certification. Is in UL certification? Not sure I understand the phrase in as it's being used here. Does Rossi mean his eCats are currently being tested for UL certification? How could Rossi's eCats possibly get UL certification this soon? Good grief! Rossi claims his contraptions emit gamma radiation! 8-0 Something doesn't make sense here. I hope clarification is forth coming. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 5:02 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: From Aussie: Rossi says the domestic E-Cat is in UL certification. Is in UL certification? Not sure I understand the phrase in as it's being used here. Does Rossi mean his eCats are currently being tested for UL certification? Yes. If so, I don't suppose he'd give us (or someone in the reliable press like maybe an AP reporter) a contact at Underwriter's Laboratories to let us know how the test is progressing and when they can have results? No trade secrets asked or wanted of course. How could Rossi's eCats possibly get UL certification this soon? Good grief! Rossi claims his contraptions emit gamma radiation! 8-0 Yes, not to mention that they supposedly have a self destruct mechanism and a safety heater! I imagine that means that if something happens to go wrong with the safety heater, something too terrible to mention happens to the E-cat and its owner? Something doesn't make sense here. I hope clarification is forth coming. Glad you came to the logical conclusion.
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Steven, That is what Rossi has said. Listed to the interview. He is working with UL to get the home unit certified. That means he has the final production unit working as UL don't certify prototypes. They will however work with a company on the final product so as to obtain certification and they understand the final product may need some tweaking to get their stamp. AG On 1/15/2012 11:32 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: From Aussie: Rossi says the domestic E-Cat is in UL certification. Is in UL certification? Not sure I understand the phrase in as it's being used here. Does Rossi mean his eCats are currently being tested for UL certification? How could Rossi's eCats possibly get UL certification this soon? Good grief! Rossi claims his contraptions emit gamma radiation!8-0 Something doesn't make sense here. I hope clarification is forth coming. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
They will however work with a company on the final product so as to obtain certification and they understand the final product may need some tweaking to get their stamp. Aussie, I confess that at present you have me at a disadvantage. I have not yet listened to the interview. I plan to listen to it soon. With that confession said, I simply find it... well surreal to assume that Rossi has gotten this far, so soon. Granted, maybe he has. And if so, good for Rossi. We all benefit... well, except perhaps for the entire petroleum industrial complex and its countless subsidiaries. Having not yet listened to the interview it is natural for someone in my shoes to perceive the phrase you used: ... may need some tweaking as if it's a joker in the card deck. It could mean just about anything. Maybe tweaking means Rossi's eCats will be ready for prime-time in just couple of months, with just a few minor adjustments here and there. However, tweaking could also mean Rossi's eCats could take another ten or twenty years and several billion dollars of RD funding before someone like me can buy one from Wall Mart. I just don't know enuf yet. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Steven, That is what Rossi has said. Listed to the interview. He is working with UL to get the home unit certified. That means he has the final production unit working as UL don't certify prototypes. They will however work with a company on the final product so as to obtain certification and they understand the final product may need some tweaking to get their stamp. Rossi also claims CE certification. I joined CE to confirm this and could not. Next time you speak with him, ask him for a copy of the CE certification. T
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Terry, I thought CE certification was largely self certification with the manufacturer claiming his product meets all applicable standards. What way, if it doesn't, a CE certifier doesn't get sued, the manufacturer does. AG On 1/15/2012 1:12 PM, Terry Blanton wrote: On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Steven, That is what Rossi has said. Listed to the interview. He is working with UL to get the home unit certified. That means he has the final production unit working as UL don't certify prototypes. They will however work with a company on the final product so as to obtain certification and they understand the final product may need some tweaking to get their stamp. Rossi also claims CE certification. I joined CE to confirm this and could not. Next time you speak with him, ask him for a copy of the CE certification. T
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Steven, I have been involved with UL certification. You first send them a unit for their analysis. Then following their initial report, you make a few changes to tweak the product so it will pass. AG On 1/15/2012 1:10 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: They will however work with a company on the final product so as to obtain certification and they understand the final product may need some tweaking to get their stamp. Aussie, I confess that at present you have me at a disadvantage. I have not yet listened to the interview. I plan to listen to it soon. With that confession said, I simply find it... well surreal to assume that Rossi has gotten this far, so soon. Granted, maybe he has. And if so, good for Rossi. We all benefit... well, except perhaps for the entire petroleum industrial complex and its countless subsidiaries. Having not yet listened to the interview it is natural for someone in my shoes to perceive the phrase you used: ... may need some tweaking as if it's a joker in the card deck. It could mean just about anything. Maybe tweaking means Rossi's eCats will be ready for prime-time in just couple of months, with just a few minor adjustments here and there. However, tweaking could also mean Rossi's eCats could take another ten or twenty years and several billion dollars of RD funding before someone like me can buy one from Wall Mart. I just don't know enuf yet. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 7:27 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Mary Yugo's message of Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:54:16 -0800: Hi, I think the price of the 10 kW modules is just a projected price, and is probably more likely to be a manufacturing cost price than what he can really sell them for. Furthermore, I think that when the factory for the small units really kicks into high gear, the price of the 1 MW units will come down accordingly. Sorry if this was discussed and I missed it but a new set of Rossi says is creating cognitive dissonance in several places. Rossi says on his blog that the price of his so-called megawatt plant has been reduced from $2 million to $1.5 million. But he projects that starting within a year, his 10kW devices will sell for $50/kW. $50 per kW is only $50,000 per megawatt. Why would anyone pay a million and a half dollars for something you could assemble yourself, albeit in a more modular form for $50,000? This is truly idiotic comment. Yugo does not understand the first thing about business or technology. I am glad I blocker her message. This is like asking anyone would buy a Data General Supernova minicomputer in 1979, knowing that in a few years personal computers would become available with far better price/performance ratios. In the 1970s and early 80s I knew lots of companies that purchased Data General supernovas and MV 8000s, and DEC computers of similar types. I programmed them. The customers and I and everyone else knew perfectly well that minicomputers would soon knock their socks off. We were looking forward to it. I *owned* a minicomputer, with 4 kB of ram. I used to show it to minicomputer users. However, in the meanwhile, before the deluge of microcomputers hit, those companies got every dime's worth of value out of the machines they purchased. The same thing applies to the people who purchased early model automobiles and truck, airplanes, copy machines, supercomputers of the 1960s which had about as much computing power as today's cellphones, and every other technology of the last 200 years. It always goes obsolete quickly. For some users, for some purposes, it is worth buying anyway. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 9:56 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Terry, I thought CE certification was largely self certification with the manufacturer claiming his product meets all applicable standards. What way, if it doesn't, a CE certifier doesn't get sued, the manufacturer does. Regardless, ask for a copy of the certification, for your own protection. T
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
At this time I bet being in certification means Rossi is in discussions with the certifier to see if the test environment can be secured. Harry On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Steven, I have been involved with UL certification. You first send them a unit for their analysis. Then following their initial report, you make a few changes to tweak the product so it will pass. AG On 1/15/2012 1:10 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: They will however work with a company on the final product so as to obtain certification and they understand the final product may need some tweaking to get their stamp. Aussie, I confess that at present you have me at a disadvantage. I have not yet listened to the interview. I plan to listen to it soon. With that confession said, I simply find it... well surreal to assume that Rossi has gotten this far, so soon. Granted, maybe he has. And if so, good for Rossi. We all benefit... well, except perhaps for the entire petroleum industrial complex and its countless subsidiaries. Having not yet listened to the interview it is natural for someone in my shoes to perceive the phrase you used: ... may need some tweaking as if it's a joker in the card deck. It could mean just about anything. Maybe tweaking means Rossi's eCats will be ready for prime-time in just couple of months, with just a few minor adjustments here and there. However, tweaking could also mean Rossi's eCats could take another ten or twenty years and several billion dollars of RD funding before someone like me can buy one from Wall Mart. I just don't know enuf yet. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Jed, Rossi is onto a winner here. Look at the earlier copper pipe Door Knob style reactor. It produced in the 10 to 20 kW range, same as the home E-Cat. Put it in a case, a few fittings for the fluid, small mirco for control, small transformerless power supply, wraparound heater, RFG coil, a screw in Energy Stick with the Ni power and like Bob's your uncle, you have a home E-Cat. Cost when making 1 mil per year? Maybe $100 tops. He needs to give WalMart and other retailer around 100% markup, so out the factory door at $200 to $250 for a $400 to $500 retail. Nice profit there for Rossi and the retailer. VERY DOABLE. Can see there will be addons, like external heat exchangers and circulation pumps with fans for space heating, inside water tank heat exchangers for hot water, etc. Doubt this is a whole system price, more like a price for the E-Cat thermal unit with an inlet connection and a outlet connection plus a On/Off button and a light / beeper to say it is time to replace the Energy Stick. Could be quite small as the Fat E-Cat reactor assembly was stated as being 20 x 20 x 1 cm with 2 cm of lead on all sides. That reactor assembly had 3 reactor cores. Rossi has said the home unit only has 1 reactor, so maybe the reactor assembly is them reduced to 8 x 20 x 1. With 2 cm of lead on all sides we get 12 x 24 x 5 cm. Lap top size as Rossi has stated. AG On 1/15/2012 1:49 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 7:27 PM, mix...@bigpond.com mailto:mix...@bigpond.com wrote: In reply to Mary Yugo's message of Sat, 14 Jan 2012 12:54:16 -0800: Hi, I think the price of the 10 kW modules is just a projected price, and is probably more likely to be a manufacturing cost price than what he can really sell them for. Furthermore, I think that when the factory for the small units really kicks into high gear, the price of the 1 MW units will come down accordingly. Sorry if this was discussed and I missed it but a new set of Rossi says is creating cognitive dissonance in several places. Rossi says on his blog that the price of his so-called megawatt plant has been reduced from $2 million to $1.5 million. But he projects that starting within a year, his 10kW devices will sell for $50/kW. $50 per kW is only $50,000 per megawatt. Why would anyone pay a million and a half dollars for something you could assemble yourself, albeit in a more modular form for $50,000? This is truly idiotic comment. Yugo does not understand the first thing about business or technology. I am glad I blocker her message. This is like asking anyone would buy a Data General Supernova minicomputer in 1979, knowing that in a few years personal computers would become available with far better price/performance ratios. In the 1970s and early 80s I knew lots of companies that purchased Data General supernovas and MV 8000s, and DEC computers of similar types. I programmed them. The customers and I and everyone else knew perfectly well that minicomputers would soon knock their socks off. We were looking forward to it. I _owned_ a minicomputer, with 4 kB of ram. I used to show it to minicomputer users. However, in the meanwhile, before the deluge of microcomputers hit, those companies got every dime's worth of value out of the machines they purchased. The same thing applies to the people who purchased early model automobiles and truck, airplanes, copy machines, supercomputers of the 1960s which had about as much computing power as today's cellphones, and every other technology of the last 200 years. It always goes obsolete quickly. For some users, for some purposes, it is worth buying anyway. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Rossi's pricing mismatch is really gross
Harry, That is how the UL certification process starts. They do an analysis and give you a prelim report on what needs to be tweaked to get certification. They will work with a company during the development stage as well. Just you need to pay them. AG On 1/15/2012 3:57 PM, Harry Veeder wrote: At this time I bet being in certification means Rossi is in discussions with the certifier to see if the test environment can be secured. Harry On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 9:59 PM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Steven, I have been involved with UL certification. You first send them a unit for their analysis. Then following their initial report, you make a few changes to tweak the product so it will pass. AG On 1/15/2012 1:10 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: They will however work with a company on the final product so as to obtain certification and they understand the final product may need some tweaking to get their stamp. Aussie, I confess that at present you have me at a disadvantage. I have not yet listened to the interview. I plan to listen to it soon. With that confession said, I simply find it... well surreal to assume that Rossi has gotten this far, so soon. Granted, maybe he has. And if so, good for Rossi. We all benefit... well, except perhaps for the entire petroleum industrial complex and its countless subsidiaries. Having not yet listened to the interview it is natural for someone in my shoes to perceive the phrase you used: ... may need some tweaking as if it's a joker in the card deck. It could mean just about anything. Maybe tweaking means Rossi's eCats will be ready for prime-time in just couple of months, with just a few minor adjustments here and there. However, tweaking could also mean Rossi's eCats could take another ten or twenty years and several billion dollars of RD funding before someone like me can buy one from Wall Mart. I just don't know enuf yet. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
