Re: [Vo]:Suppose the DoE were testing a device instead of the Greek Min. of Energy
Abd's response strikes me as a lot of verbiage the obscures the point about these tests. I do not think there is any chance the Minister will allow people to blatantly lie about what his Ministry is doing. More to the point -- Defkalion says the government will issue reports and a license to sell the machines. The reports have to be made public, as a matter of law. The government is supposedly testing the device to be sure the excess heat is real, and in a different set of tests, to be sure the machines are safe. So if the reports are forthcoming, and they confirm the claims, we will know that Defkalion is telling the truth. If the reports never come out, or if the reports say there is no excess heat we will know that Defkalion is lying. I do not think there is any chance the Greek government will conspire with Defkalion in fraud or in some sort of gigantic joke. We can rule that out. There is not the slightest chance the government will make a mistake measuring 450 W in and 20,000 W out. No engineer or scientists on planet earth could make a mistake on that scale. It seems to me this is exactly what skeptics have been demanding of cold fusion all these years. This will give us a straightforward yes or no answer in a few months. I do not understand why skeptics are complaining about this, but several of them are, in private e-mail messages to me. What more do these people want?!? They are saying the Greek government is too slow or or you can't trust EU engineers to measure the difference between 450 W and 20,000 W. That's unreasonable. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Suppose the DoE were testing a device instead of the Greek Min. of Energy
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:09 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: There is not the slightest chance the government will make a mistake measuring 450 W in and 20,000 W out. No engineer or scientists on planet earth could make a mistake on that scale. Perhaps not, but if it's true, any engineer or scientist on the planet would not stop there. They would immediately take the 20 kW out, and use it to generate the 450 W in. Then they would have infinite gain, and a completely isolated device generating energy that would not require any expertise to evaluate it. You said this was trivial. The fact that do something difficult, which so far has failed to convince the public, but neglect to do something trivial which could not fail to convince the public leaves a lot of people skeptical. It seems to me this is exactly what skeptics have been demanding of cold fusion all these years. It's not even what you have been asking for: an isolated device that stays warmer than its surroundings for a really long time. What more do these people want?!? An isolated device, please. No input. At all.
Re: [Vo]:Suppose the DoE were testing a device instead of the Greek Min. of Energy
If I had been an ideological skeptic, certain all CF claims were bogus, erroneous, delusional or fraudulent, I would have been much quicker to see the obvious unproven aspects of the January 14 Rossi demo, and the consistent pattern of unproven claims in all the demos since. (I've always been ready to accept that CF or LENR is real.) The blaring announcements of Defkalion fit this pattern rather well. House of cards processes are notable in history. The null hypothesis so far has not been falsified by facts...
Re: [Vo]:Suppose the DoE were testing a device instead of the Greek Min. of Energy
I wrote: Memo from the Director of Safety Testing: Did you measure the generated heat? Response from testing technician: No, of course not, that wasn't in the test specification. We did not see any explosions. . . . Let me point out another thing about this un-funny joke, and the many similar comments coming in by private e-mail. The Greek government, like all other EU counties, has to certify that a product does what is claimed. A company is not allowed to sell a product which does not meet the advertised claims. That would be consumer fraud. Products are tested by agencies to prevent this. If the company says a hybrid car gets 50 mpg and goes 100 mph, it has to submit prototypes to a testing agency that will assure that is true, and give the car a rating. This is how things work in U.S., the EU and Japan. Defkalion has a reactor they claim inputs 450 W and outputs 20 kW. If there is no anomalous heat, and output is actually 450 W, the regulators will see that. They will not allow Defkalion to go around claiming this is a kilowatt heater if it isn't. A correspondent wrote to me that she does not trust EU regulators. They might not do this job adequately. My response: To what extent do you not trust them? Do you think they are incapable of measuring 450 W input and 20,000 W output, continuing for weeks or months? How difficult do you think that is to confirm? Do you seriously doubt that an EU government agency is incapable of determining that? Have you ever been to Europe? You will note that buildings there do not often collapse, the trains do not run off the rails, and Airbus aircraft do not routinely fall from the skies. Evidently, their industrial standards and agencies are about as good as ours. It is one thing to have doubts about the ability of engineers to measure some subtle effect, or to do a particularly difficult state-of-the art test. What you are saying is that you don't trust these people can measure the difference between 450 W and 20,000 W. That's preposterous. Abd is either joking, or he imagines it would not occur to these people to do this measurement. That is also preposterous. It is also insulting and it defies common sense and what all know about modern governments and commerce. Corporations are not allowed to manufacture and sell fake 300,000 kilowatt scale reactors that actually only produce 450 W. That would be like advertising and selling an ordinary 25 mpg car as a 2500 mpg magical super-car. Regulators will notice you are doing that. They will shut you down with a criminal injunction. Unless, of course, they have tested the car and determined that it is true. Lots of people -- customers and regulators -- would notice if Defkalion did that. There is no chance that Defkalion will make money doing that. No country on earth would allow them to do it. So stop with the absurd fantasies and the denial of common-sense reality. - Jed
