Re: IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results
Hi Ronni and Susan Thanks for all your suggestions. I have still not been able to get an acceptable result - so obviously I am doing something wrong even though I have tried all sorts of suggestions - and am now totally confused. I have been very busy and have not been able to focus on my iMovie/ iDVD recently - and I must admit to feeling very discouraged after all the hours I have put in. I am off interstate for the next 3 weeks and will start afresh when I return. Will talk to you then Susan about purchasing/using Toast instead of iDVD - and what versions you are using. Hopefully I will be successful next time around. Regards Marlene Oostryck 9430 8006 On 23/03/2010, at 11:29 AM, Susan Hastings wrote: Hi Marlene, I can get good reults blending movie files and photos with Ken burns effect into a single movie using iMovie, then burning to playable DVD with Toast. So sounds like using iDVD is where the problem begins. Susan --- Susan Hastings Mobile: 0409688004 On 23/03/2010, at 10:16 AM, Ronda Brown ro...@mac.com wrote: Hi Marlene, Sorry to hear you are still having problems with creating a DVD of a good standard. What you are seeing sounds like Combing / Jaggies - Interlacing artifacts. Did you only check the video in iDVD's Preview? After you did Save As Disk Image of your iDVD Project, and played it in DVD Player, were the Combing / Jaggies as noticeable?. Also, what size images did you use in iMovie? 768 x 576 pixels for standard video in PAL format 1024 x 576 pixels for widescreen in PAL format Cheers, Ronni On 22/03/2010, at 1:06 PM, Marlene Oostryck wrote: Hi Ronni At last I have found some time to proceed with your instructions. Thank you so much for them. The first part went well and the detail you included made it easy. I saved a DV format of my project. Working through iDVD was not easy but I finally got through the Theme part, and dropped my DV movie in. Unfortunately when viewing the preview there is still an unacceptable amount of horizontal movement. Perhaps I should accept that iMovie was designed for movies, not photos - even though the facility is there to include photos incorporating a Ken Burns effect - and that I presumed iDVD would burn DVDs to play on a TV screen without loss of quality - as I have been able to do on a PC using Photo Story 3 and a Sonic plug- in. Is there any point in proceeding to burn a DVD or is the quality I see on the preview what I would get after burning? Regards Marlene Oostryck -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au
Re: IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results
Hi Marlene, Sorry to hear you are still having problems with creating a DVD of a good standard. What you are seeing sounds like Combing / Jaggies - Interlacing artifacts. Did you only check the video in iDVD's Preview? After you did Save As Disk Image of your iDVD Project, and played it in DVD Player, were the Combing / Jaggies as noticeable?. Also, what size images did you use in iMovie? 768 x 576 pixels for standard video in PAL format 1024 x 576 pixels for widescreen in PAL format Cheers, Ronni On 22/03/2010, at 1:06 PM, Marlene Oostryck wrote: Hi Ronni At last I have found some time to proceed with your instructions. Thank you so much for them. The first part went well and the detail you included made it easy. I saved a DV format of my project. Working through iDVD was not easy but I finally got through the Theme part, and dropped my DV movie in. Unfortunately when viewing the preview there is still an unacceptable amount of horizontal movement. Perhaps I should accept that iMovie was designed for movies, not photos - even though the facility is there to include photos incorporating a Ken Burns effect - and that I presumed iDVD would burn DVDs to play on a TV screen without loss of quality - as I have been able to do on a PC using Photo Story 3 and a Sonic plug-in. Is there any point in proceeding to burn a DVD or is the quality I see on the preview what I would get after burning? Regards Marlene Oostryck -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au
Re: IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results
Hi Marlene, I can get good reults blending movie files and photos with Ken burns effect into a single movie using iMovie, then burning to playable DVD with Toast. So sounds like using iDVD is where the problem begins. Susan --- Susan Hastings Mobile: 0409688004 On 23/03/2010, at 10:16 AM, Ronda Brown ro...@mac.com wrote: Hi Marlene, Sorry to hear you are still having problems with creating a DVD of a good standard. What you are seeing sounds like Combing / Jaggies - Interlacing artifacts. Did you only check the video in iDVD's Preview? After you did Save As Disk Image of your iDVD Project, and played it in DVD Player, were the Combing / Jaggies as noticeable?. Also, what size images did you use in iMovie? 768 x 576 pixels for standard video in PAL format 1024 x 576 pixels for widescreen in PAL format Cheers, Ronni On 22/03/2010, at 1:06 PM, Marlene Oostryck wrote: Hi Ronni At last I have found some time to proceed with your instructions. Thank you so much for them. The first part went well and the detail you included made it easy. I saved a DV format of my project. Working through iDVD was not easy but I finally got through the Theme part, and dropped my DV movie in. Unfortunately when viewing the preview there is still an unacceptable amount of horizontal movement. Perhaps I should accept that iMovie was designed for movies, not photos - even though the facility is there to include photos incorporating a Ken Burns effect - and that I presumed iDVD would burn DVDs to play on a TV screen without loss of quality - as I have been able to do on a PC using Photo Story 3 and a Sonic plug-in. Is there any point in proceeding to burn a DVD or is the quality I see on the preview what I would get after burning? Regards Marlene Oostryck -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au
Re: IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results
Hi Ronni At last I have found some time to proceed with your instructions. Thank you so much for them. The first part went well and the detail you included made it easy. I saved a DV format of my project. Working through iDVD was not easy but I finally got through the Theme part, and dropped my DV movie in. Unfortunately when viewing the preview there is still an unacceptable amount of horizontal movement. Perhaps I should accept that iMovie was designed for movies, not photos - even though the facility is there to include photos incorporating a Ken Burns effect - and that I presumed iDVD would burn DVDs to play on a TV screen without loss of quality - as I have been able to do on a PC using Photo Story 3 and a Sonic plug-in. Is there any point in proceeding to burn a DVD or is the quality I see on the preview what I would get after burning? Regards Marlene Oostryck On 14/03/2010, at 7:05 PM, Ronda Brown wrote: Hi Marlene, First I'll mention a little about iMovie'09 iMovieHD ('06), just for your reference. Be aware that iMovie '09 uses 'single field processing' (Interlaced) meaning every other horizontal line of the video is thrown out, which reduces the sharpness of the footage. iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) uses ALL of the image (Progressive) to form the video. If your primary workflow is editing DV clips and making DVDs, iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) is better suited. Your movie will arrive at iDVD in DV format, which is an ideal match for making a DVD: same resolution, same pixels aspect ratio, and original quality. iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) and iDVD 09 is a lossless combination. iMovie '09 is a wonderful program assuming that you're using it for what it was designed to do, assemble simple videos to share on the Internet. - After saying the above, it is not going to help you any as you don't have iMovieHD and Apple have ceased allowing it for download. So we work with what you have, that is, your project in iMovie'09, best quality export to get it into iDVD create a DVD of very good quality. As I mentioned in my previous email today … DON'T Share to iDVD! It is destructive especially to photos. I suggest you have three choices to get your iMovie project into iDVD create your DVD. 1. Share Media Browser - Large 720 x 540 2. Share Export Movie - creates a MPEG-4 (.m4v) 720 x 540 Audio 44,100 kHz 3. Share Export Using Quicktime - gives you control over Quicktime Settings. (Share always to your Movies folder, then when in iDVD you can click on Media - then Movies and locate your files). You could experiment with all the above settings, making sure that in iDVD you save your iDVD projects Save As Disc Image, so you can check before your waste any DVDs. I would suggest, in your case, that No.3 - Share Export Using Quicktime with these settings would give you the best quality DVD. Share Export using Quicktime In the export window that appears, Export: Movie to DV Stream, click Options DV Format: DV Video Format: PAL (leave it at interlaced, as DVD-PAL is interlaced) Aspect Ratio: 4:3 or 16:9 (depending on how your photos/project was imported) Audio Format: 48,000 kHz This will give you a Quicktime .dv file with Format DV, 720 x 576, Stereo, 48,000 kHz. Then you can Open iDVD, bring in your Movie file, and create your DVD. iDVD Preferences: Projects: PAL, Encoding: Professional Quality Once you know your project plays through correctly in iDVD. Go to File Save As Disc Image You then see a window Creating your DVD 1. Prepare 2. Process Menus 3. Process Slideshows 4. Process Movies 5. Burn After all the Rendering, encoding, processing movie, asset encoding, finally multiplexing burning is completed, a Disc Image is created. All this takes a long time, depending on the length of your movie. 6. Open the Disk Image and play it all the way through in DVD Player.app to check for any errors BEFORE you burn the Disc Image to a DVD-R Disc. 7. Burn at a slow speed - 2x or 4x for Single Layer DVD-R, 2x for Double Layer DVD+R DL. (I recommend using Verbatim DVD-R (for single layer) DVD+R DL Discs (for Double Layer). NOTE: I did a quick iMovie'09 project this afternoon, and Share to iDVD using No.2(Share Export Movie - creates a MPEG-4 (.m4v) 720 x 540 Audio 44,100 kHz) No.3 (Share Export Using Quicktime, with the settings I explained above). Saved the iDVD project as a Disk Image, (with both projects on the disk image. t Then burn't a DVD-R from the Disk Image using Toast Titanium 10, but you can use either the Finder or Disk Utility to burn a Disk Image to DVD. I found both the .m4v .dv with above settings produced a very good quality DVD when played in my DVD Player connected to TV. Possibly the DV format was slightly better, but that could just be my preference, there was not much difference that I could see with my eyes ;-) Hope this is helpful to you, as I would very much
Re: IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results
Hi Marlene, First I'll mention a little about iMovie'09 iMovieHD ('06), just for your reference. Be aware that iMovie '09 uses 'single field processing' (Interlaced) meaning every other horizontal line of the video is thrown out, which reduces the sharpness of the footage. iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) uses ALL of the image (Progressive) to form the video. If your primary workflow is editing DV clips and making DVDs, iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) is better suited. Your movie will arrive at iDVD in DV format, which is an ideal match for making a DVD: same resolution, same pixels aspect ratio, and original quality. iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) and iDVD 09 is a lossless combination. iMovie '09 is a wonderful program assuming that you're using it for what it was designed to do, assemble simple videos to share on the Internet. - After saying the above, it is not going to help you any as you don't have iMovieHD and Apple have ceased allowing it for download. So we work with what you have, that is, your project in iMovie'09, best quality export to get it into iDVD create a DVD of very good quality. As I mentioned in my previous email today … DON'T Share to iDVD! It is destructive especially to photos. I suggest you have three choices to get your iMovie project into iDVD create your DVD. 1. Share Media Browser - Large 720 x 540 2. Share Export Movie - creates a MPEG-4 (.m4v) 720 x 540 Audio 44,100 kHz 3. Share Export Using Quicktime - gives you control over Quicktime Settings. (Share always to your Movies folder, then when in iDVD you can click on Media - then Movies and locate your files). You could experiment with all the above settings, making sure that in iDVD you save your iDVD projects Save As Disc Image, so you can check before your waste any DVDs. I would suggest, in your case, that No.3 - Share Export Using Quicktime with these settings would give you the best quality DVD. Share Export using Quicktime In the export window that appears, Export: Movie to DV Stream, click Options DV Format: DV Video Format: PAL (leave it at interlaced, as DVD-PAL is interlaced) Aspect Ratio: 4:3 or 16:9 (depending on how your photos/project was imported) Audio Format: 48,000 kHz This will give you a Quicktime .dv file with Format DV, 720 x 576, Stereo, 48,000 kHz. Then you can Open iDVD, bring in your Movie file, and create your DVD. iDVD Preferences: Projects: PAL, Encoding: Professional Quality Once you know your project plays through correctly in iDVD. Go to File Save As Disc Image You then see a window Creating your DVD 1. Prepare 2. Process Menus 3. Process Slideshows 4. Process Movies 5. Burn After all the Rendering, encoding, processing movie, asset encoding, finally multiplexing burning is completed, a Disc Image is created. All this takes a long time, depending on the length of your movie. 6. Open the Disk Image and play it all the way through in DVD Player.app to check for any errors BEFORE you burn the Disc Image to a DVD-R Disc. 7. Burn at a slow speed - 2x or 4x for Single Layer DVD-R, 2x for Double Layer DVD+R DL. (I recommend using Verbatim DVD-R (for single layer) DVD+R DL Discs (for Double Layer). NOTE: I did a quick iMovie'09 project this afternoon, and Share to iDVD using No.2(Share Export Movie - creates a MPEG-4 (.m4v) 720 x 540 Audio 44,100 kHz) No.3 (Share Export Using Quicktime, with the settings I explained above). Saved the iDVD project as a Disk Image, (with both projects on the disk image. t Then burn't a DVD-R from the Disk Image using Toast Titanium 10, but you can use either the Finder or Disk Utility to burn a Disk Image to DVD. I found both the .m4v .dv with above settings produced a very good quality DVD when played in my DVD Player connected to TV. Possibly the DV format was slightly better, but that could just be my preference, there was not much difference that I could see with my eyes ;-) Hope this is helpful to you, as I would very much like you to be able to create a very good quality DVD of your project. Post back to WAMUG if you require any more assistance. Kind Regards, Ronni On 14/03/2010, at 11:22 AM, Marlene Oostryck wrote: Hi All I have just burnt my first DVD from an iMovie project and have been really disappointed with the result. (iMac 10.5.8, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB) The image quality in iMovie is excellent but when played as a DVD on a TV there are moving horizontal lines and the image quality is very poor. A Google search on this problem turned up 130 discussion forums on others who have had similar results. The suggested solutions seem very complex: Use 1Movie 06 and then burn using Toast Don't use the Share feature from iMovie to iDVD - it is destructive of quality By-passing this Share feature - start using iDVD and import - but mixed results All sorts of manipulations in moving from iMovie to iDVD - all very technical and clunky. Don't use Ken Burns effect Buy Final Cut Pro or
RE: IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results
Thanks for the comprehensive instructions again Ronni. I will soon be experimenting with iMovie '09 which I have on the Macbook. Your tips acknowledged. My video was shot with a Sony HD camcorder which I believe is 1080 (i or p not sure). It seems from your notes below, the resultant video when burnt to a disc will be something at a lower resolution that the original source file. Have I interpreted correctly? Is there a way of retaining the original resolution or am I dreaming? Regards Peter. From: wamug-ow...@wamug.org.au [mailto:wamug-ow...@wamug.org.au] On Behalf Of Ronda Brown Sent: Sunday, 14 March 2010 7:06 PM To: WAMUG Mailing List Subject: Re: IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results Hi Marlene, First I'll mention a little about iMovie'09 iMovieHD ('06), just for your reference. Be aware that iMovie '09 uses 'single field processing' (Interlaced) meaning every other horizontal line of the video is thrown out, which reduces the sharpness of the footage. iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) uses ALL of the image (Progressive) to form the video. If your primary workflow is editing DV clips and making DVDs, iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) is better suited. Your movie will arrive at iDVD in DV format, which is an ideal match for making a DVD: same resolution, same pixels aspect ratio, and original quality. iMovie 06 (iMovie HD) and iDVD 09 is a lossless combination. iMovie '09 is a wonderful program assuming that you're using it for what it was designed to do, assemble simple videos to share on the Internet. - After saying the above, it is not going to help you any as you don't have iMovieHD and Apple have ceased allowing it for download. So we work with what you have, that is, your project in iMovie'09, best quality export to get it into iDVD create a DVD of very good quality. As I mentioned in my previous email today ... DON'T Share to iDVD! It is destructive especially to photos. I suggest you have three choices to get your iMovie project into iDVD create your DVD. 1. Share Media Browser - Large 720 x 540 2. Share Export Movie - creates a MPEG-4 (.m4v) 720 x 540 Audio 44,100 kHz 3. Share Export Using Quicktime - gives you control over Quicktime Settings. (Share always to your Movies folder, then when in iDVD you can click on Media - then Movies and locate your files). You could experiment with all the above settings, making sure that in iDVD you save your iDVD projects Save As Disc Image, so you can check before your waste any DVDs. I would suggest, in your case, that No.3 - Share Export Using Quicktime with these settings would give you the best quality DVD. Share Export using Quicktime In the export window that appears, Export: Movie to DV Stream, click Options DV Format: DV Video Format: PAL (leave it at interlaced, as DVD-PAL is interlaced) Aspect Ratio: 4:3 or 16:9 (depending on how your photos/project was imported) Audio Format: 48,000 kHz This will give you a Quicktime .dv file with Format DV, 720 x 576, Stereo, 48,000 kHz. Then you can Open iDVD, bring in your Movie file, and create your DVD. iDVD Preferences: Projects: PAL, Encoding: Professional Quality Once you know your project plays through correctly in iDVD. Go to File Save As Disc Image You then see a window Creating your DVD 1. Prepare 2. Process Menus 3. Process Slideshows 4. Process Movies 5. Burn After all the Rendering, encoding, processing movie, asset encoding, finally multiplexing burning is completed, a Disc Image is created. All this takes a long time, depending on the length of your movie. 6. Open the Disk Image and play it all the way through in DVD Player.app to check for any errors BEFORE you burn the Disc Image to a DVD-R Disc. 7. Burn at a slow speed - 2x or 4x for Single Layer DVD-R, 2x for Double Layer DVD+R DL. (I recommend using Verbatim DVD-R (for single layer) DVD+R DL Discs (for Double Layer). NOTE: I did a quick iMovie'09 project this afternoon, and Share to iDVD using No.2(Share Export Movie - creates a MPEG-4 (.m4v) 720 x 540 Audio 44,100 kHz) No.3 (Share Export Using Quicktime, with the settings I explained above). Saved the iDVD project as a Disk Image, (with both projects on the disk image. t Then burn't a DVD-R from the Disk Image using Toast Titanium 10, but you can use either the Finder or Disk Utility to burn a Disk Image to DVD. I found both the .m4v .dv with above settings produced a very good quality DVD when played in my DVD Player connected to TV. Possibly the DV format was slightly better, but that could just be my preference, there was not much difference that I could see with my eyes ;-) Hope this is helpful to you, as I would very much like you to be able to create a very good quality DVD of your project. Post back to WAMUG if you require any more assistance. Kind Regards, Ronni On 14/03/2010, at 11:22 AM, Marlene Oostryck wrote: Hi All I have just
IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results
Hi All I have just burnt my first DVD from an iMovie project and have been really disappointed with the result. (iMac 10.5.8, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB) The image quality in iMovie is excellent but when played as a DVD on a TV there are moving horizontal lines and the image quality is very poor. A Google search on this problem turned up 130 discussion forums on others who have had similar results. The suggested solutions seem very complex: Use 1Movie 06 and then burn using Toast Don't use the Share feature from iMovie to iDVD - it is destructive of quality By-passing this Share feature - start using iDVD and import - but mixed results All sorts of manipulations in moving from iMovie to iDVD - all very technical and clunky. Don't use Ken Burns effect Buy Final Cut Pro or other software The consensus seems to be that Steve Jobs/Apple feel that DVDs are old fashioned and that sharing of home-produced movies will all be done via the Web so not much effort went in to iDVD 09! But there are millions who don't have internet access or prefer to watch these on their TV. My work flow for this 18 min DVD was: Edit photos in iPhoto - great! Produce iMovie project from still photos using Ken Burns, transitions, map screens, record voiceover, add background music - excellent finished product but very time-consuming Share to iDVD using Professional Quality/Pal using Verbatim DVD-R disc - terrible finished product. I have plenty of disc space available. I have used information from: iMovie 09 and iDVD- The Missing Manual iMovie 09 and iDVD Visual Quickstart Guide- Jeff Carlson Apple tutorials I have made many DVDs on a PC using Photo Story 3 software (free from Microsoft) and must admit that the process was far easier with no loss of quality in the finished DVD. The whole reason for shifting to a Mac was my impression that iMovie/ iDVD was more sophisticated with many more features. Sadly, I am finding that this is not so. Any suggestion would be appreciated. Regards Marlene Oostryck Ph: 9430 8006 oostr...@optusnet.com.au -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au
Re: IMovie 09 to iDVD 09 - terrible results
Hi Marlene, I'll get back to you as soon as I get near my computer. It's hard explaining from my iPhone DON'T 'Share to iDVD! I'll explain more soon Sent from Ronni's iPhone On 14/03/2010, at 11:22 AM, Marlene Oostryck oostr...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Hi All I have just burnt my first DVD from an iMovie project and have been really disappointed with the result. (iMac 10.5.8, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 4GB) The image quality in iMovie is excellent but when played as a DVD on a TV there are moving horizontal lines and the image quality is very poor. A Google search on this problem turned up 130 discussion forums on others who have had similar results. The suggested solutions seem very complex: Use 1Movie 06 and then burn using Toast Don't use the Share feature from iMovie to iDVD - it is destructive of quality By-passing this Share feature - start using iDVD and import - but mixed results All sorts of manipulations in moving from iMovie to iDVD - all very technical and clunky. Don't use Ken Burns effect Buy Final Cut Pro or other software The consensus seems to be that Steve Jobs/Apple feel that DVDs are old fashioned and that sharing of home-produced movies will all be done via the Web so not much effort went in to iDVD 09! But there are millions who don't have internet access or prefer to watch these on their TV. My work flow for this 18 min DVD was: Edit photos in iPhoto - great! Produce iMovie project from still photos using Ken Burns, transitions, map screens, record voiceover, add background music - excellent finished product but very time-consuming Share to iDVD using Professional Quality/Pal using Verbatim DVD-R disc - terrible finished product. I have plenty of disc space available. I have used information from: iMovie 09 and iDVD- The Missing Manual iMovie 09 and iDVD Visual Quickstart Guide- Jeff Carlson Apple tutorials I have made many DVDs on a PC using Photo Story 3 software (free from Microsoft) and must admit that the process was far easier with no loss of quality in the finished DVD. The whole reason for shifting to a Mac was my impression that iMovie/ iDVD was more sophisticated with many more features. Sadly, I am finding that this is not so. Any suggestion would be appreciated. Regards Marlene Oostryck Ph: 9430 8006 oostr...@optusnet.com.au -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List -- Archives - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/archives.shtml Guidelines - http://www.wamug.org.au/mailinglist/guidelines.shtml Unsubscribe - mailto:wamug-unsubscr...@wamug.org.au