Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for Dec 2013 ([ppmc])
Here we go again. Any volunteers to report? Unfortunately the steam seems to be out of Wave again... On 28 Nov 2013, at 4:58, Marvin wrote: Dear podling, This email was sent by an automated system on behalf of the Apache Incubator PMC. It is an initial reminder to give you plenty of time to prepare your quarterly board report. The board meeting is scheduled for Wed, 18 December 2013, 10:30:30:00 PST. The report for your podling will form a part of the Incubator PMC report. The Incubator PMC requires your report to be submitted 2 weeks before the board meeting, to allow sufficient time for review and submission (Wed, Dec 4th). Please submit your report with sufficient time to allow the incubator PMC, and subsequently board members to review and digest. Again, the very latest you should submit your report is 2 weeks prior to the board meeting. Thanks, The Apache Incubator PMC Submitting your Report -- Your report should contain the following: * Your project name * A brief description of your project, which assumes no knowledge of the project or necessarily of its field * A list of the three most important issues to address in the move towards graduation. * Any issues that the Incubator PMC or ASF Board might wish/need to be aware of * How has the community developed since the last report * How has the project developed since the last report. This should be appended to the Incubator Wiki page at: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/December2013 Note: This manually populated. You may need to wait a little before this page is created from a template. Mentors --- Mentors should review reports for their project(s) and sign them off on the Incubator wiki page. Signing off reports shows that you are following the project - projects that are not signed may raise alarms for the Incubator PMC. Incubator PMC --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Incubation status
Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for Dec 2013 ([ppmc])
Am 28.11.13 10:53, schrieb Christian Grobmeier: Here we go again. Any volunteers to report? I'm willing to review it Unfortunately the steam seems to be out of Wave again... You give up verry soon :p I'm ready to heat up again. Greetings Raphael
Re: Incubation status
As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
+1 github, it will be a better context for both the project and community. Sent from my iPhone On 28-11-2013, at 9:09, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubator PMC/Board report for Dec 2013 ([ppmc])
Yuri, Check 52284A93.9010403 for the last set of comments on it. Though, given the other discussion, I would hold off the report for a day or two, and let us settle that first. Ali On 28 November 2013 10:00, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote: Sure, I ll do it. Ali, what was the issue with last release candidate? I think there were some minor change requests, right? On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Here we go again. Any volunteers to report? Unfortunately the steam seems to be out of Wave again... On 28 Nov 2013, at 4:58, Marvin wrote: Dear podling, This email was sent by an automated system on behalf of the Apache Incubator PMC. It is an initial reminder to give you plenty of time to prepare your quarterly board report. The board meeting is scheduled for Wed, 18 December 2013, 10:30:30:00 PST. The report for your podling will form a part of the Incubator PMC report. The Incubator PMC requires your report to be submitted 2 weeks before the board meeting, to allow sufficient time for review and submission (Wed, Dec 4th). Please submit your report with sufficient time to allow the incubator PMC, and subsequently board members to review and digest. Again, the very latest you should submit your report is 2 weeks prior to the board meeting. Thanks, The Apache Incubator PMC Submitting your Report -- Your report should contain the following: * Your project name * A brief description of your project, which assumes no knowledge of the project or necessarily of its field * A list of the three most important issues to address in the move towards graduation. * Any issues that the Incubator PMC or ASF Board might wish/need to be aware of * How has the community developed since the last report * How has the project developed since the last report. This should be appended to the Incubator Wiki page at: http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/December2013 Note: This manually populated. You may need to wait a little before this page is created from a template. Mentors --- Mentors should review reports for their project(s) and sign them off on the Incubator wiki page. Signing off reports shows that you are following the project - projects that are not signed may raise alarms for the Incubator PMC. Incubator PMC --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like reddit. my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad at the lack of progress. thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already usefull ! fleeky On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like reddit. my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad at the lack of progress. thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already usefull ! fleeky On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. The web needs this. However, promotion in general will do more harm then good. Promoting to potential coders? sure. But the public? Your just repeating Googles mistake and pushing something that isnt remotely ready. ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 28 November 2013 14:23, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like reddit. my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad at the lack of progress. thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already usefull ! fleeky On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
Hi, I joined the mailing list a couple of months ago with every intention of contributing but unfortunately life work has got in the way. From my perspective what would really help would be some kind of developer on boarding process. Have one of the more established developers reach out to the noobs like me, why we're interested, what skills we've got, how much we can contribute and help us identify some tasks that we might be able to usefully work on and find interesting. In my case, I'm interested because I'm more convinced than ever that Wave is exactly what business needs for social collaboration at work and I was gutted when Google dropped it. My skills are mainly Java, and I could probably fit in an hour a week. Cheers, Ewan On 28 November 2013 13:32, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. The web needs this. However, promotion in general will do more harm then good. Promoting to potential coders? sure. But the public? Your just repeating Googles mistake and pushing something that isnt remotely ready. ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 28 November 2013 14:23, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like reddit. my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad at the lack of progress. thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already usefull ! fleeky On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
move it away from incubation Will it make any difference? I'm working at a company where Google Drive, Evernote, and other third party cloud applications are forbidden. I found Wave in a Box a good replacement. Recently, I made some effort on full text searchhttps://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/WAVE-311, a much-to-have feature if you're going to have a lot of waves. Currently, there are five people in my team use wave actively everyday. I'm new to the community. I want to contribute more though I've noticed the inactivity in the development. May I ask (ignorantly) will it change anything where to host the project? On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like reddit. my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad at the lack of progress. thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already usefull ! fleeky On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts? Christian --- http://www.grobmeier.de @grobmeier GPG: 0xA5CC90DB
Re: Incubation status
@Christian: Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions about the future of Wave. Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is the right place for Wave (in its current form). (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license? Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?) @FrankR: You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the Apache SVN tree). [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine) https://github.com/alown/wave]. When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking, Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is not to be underestimated for getting development support]. @Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). @Thomas: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together, but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But this is something that must be done). @Thomas/FrankR: how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we struggle to maintain active developers here). The other problem, is that at ~500,000 LOC of Java, it is not easy for new people to get involved. (@Ewan: This ties in to your point, but it would take more than a few weeks to get someone familiar with this codebase [I have been focused almost exclusively on the server code for the last ~3 years, but I still couldn't tell you exactly how it all fits together - which is why the corruption issues are still outstanding]). I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. This I agree with, but it also tells us what our actual aim should be: A clearly separated library for using WFP to create things - of which the client/server are examples... Ultimately, from my point of view, a move to GitHub would provide us with several things: - Full Git integration (The Apache system is still very awkward to use and git-svn still chokes on things occasionally). - The GitHub 'ethic' - hard to explain - The opportunity to change the working style. I feel that the 'meritocracy' approach only works well for clearly established projects. Wave has too many options - and it is this that is dividing the effort going in to it. Making decisions here is proving incredibly difficult, getting votes for releases is very difficult, etc. As such, I would push for a much clearer philosophy of the 'new project'. Sorry about the long email. :) Comments? Ali
Re: Incubation status
Hi Ewan I agree with you. Here are my skills. - Competent in GWT, i.e. Java + HTML + CSS + JS. The UI of wave is built with GWT, right? - Basic understanding in XMPP. - More on my Google+ profile https://plus.google.com/u/0/+FrankR/about My available hours should be flexible. Maximum, 10 hours. On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Ewan Slater ewan.sla...@googlemail.comwrote: Hi, I joined the mailing list a couple of months ago with every intention of contributing but unfortunately life work has got in the way. From my perspective what would really help would be some kind of developer on boarding process. Have one of the more established developers reach out to the noobs like me, why we're interested, what skills we've got, how much we can contribute and help us identify some tasks that we might be able to usefully work on and find interesting. In my case, I'm interested because I'm more convinced than ever that Wave is exactly what business needs for social collaboration at work and I was gutted when Google dropped it. My skills are mainly Java, and I could probably fit in an hour a week. Cheers, Ewan On 28 November 2013 13:32, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. The web needs this. However, promotion in general will do more harm then good. Promoting to potential coders? sure. But the public? Your just repeating Googles mistake and pushing something that isnt remotely ready. ~~~ Thomas Bertines online review show: http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :) On 28 November 2013 14:23, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like reddit. my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad at the lack of progress. thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already usefull ! fleeky On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Evan You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :) Frank On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote: As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive. just a newbies opinion. Evan Hughes On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi folks, it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone. I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place. Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is - in a way - active. I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working on the codebase recently was Ali. He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the necessary votes from its own team. My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only little hope. Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. Thoughts?
Re: Incubation status
I put some inline comments. Hope it won't be too hard to read. On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 10:18 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote: @Christian: Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions about the future of Wave. Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is the right place for Wave (in its current form). (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license? Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?) @FrankR: You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the Apache SVN tree). [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine) https://github.com/alown/wave]. I've also made a clone, https://github.com/renfeng/wave. The question is will it disappear if https://github.com/apache/wave is removed? It is the case for clones of private github repositories. When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking, Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is not to be underestimated for getting development support]. You got the point. @Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). @Thomas: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together, but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But this is something that must be done). @Thomas/FrankR: how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we struggle to maintain active developers here). The other problem, is that at ~500,000 LOC of Java, it is not easy for new people to get involved. (@Ewan: This ties in to your point, but it would take more than a few weeks to get someone familiar with this codebase [I have been focused almost exclusively on the server code for the last ~3 years, but I still couldn't tell you exactly how it all fits together - which is why the corruption issues are still outstanding]). I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. This I agree with, but it also tells us what our actual aim should be: A clearly separated library for using WFP to create things - of which the client/server are examples... Ultimately, from my point of view, a move to GitHub would provide us with several things: - Full Git integration (The Apache system is still very awkward to use and git-svn still chokes on things occasionally). - The GitHub 'ethic' - hard to explain - The opportunity to change the working style. I feel that the 'meritocracy' approach only works well for clearly established projects. Wave has too many options - and it is this that is dividing the effort going in to it. Making decisions here is proving incredibly difficult, getting votes for releases is very difficult, etc. As such, I would push for a much clearer philosophy of the 'new project'. Thanks for explaining. I agree. Wave shall get freed. Sorry about the long email. :) Comments? Ali
Re: Incubation status
Hi, On 28 Nov 2013, at 15:18, Ali Lown wrote: @Christian: Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions about the future of Wave. Sad :-| Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is the right place for Wave (in its current form). The Incubator has a specific goal. Maybe once the project has an active (developing!) community again, the ASF might be the right place again. One large benefit speaking for such an org as the ASF is that we maintain a clean IP. Its reducing risk for companies. However, if you start carefully with that at GitHub too its no problem. Not even to come back. (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license? Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?) In ASF terms it goes to the attic which is a read-only repository. The code there remains in AL 2.0. With AL 2.0 it is possible for you to fork it to GitHub which is more or less what happens. You can work on the code as you like and release your own packages in the way you like. However you can't simply change the license of some existing code. I don't know the specifics but if you plan to change the license it's better to ask some other folks here at the ASF. If want to keep AL 2.0 which I would love, then no problem. There will be one issue to solve which is the trademarks thing. To my knowledge the trademark has been transferred to the ASF. We need to ask at Apache Branding if you want to keep the current names. Usually the ASF keeps trademarks. In example, the Apache iBatis project renamed itself to MyBatis after moving away. However in incubating projects I have seen people taking away the names too, like Zeta Components. Once this has been cleared it should be no problem for you to move on. Please note that you should set up a new mailinglist before the retirement happens. ML are closed once the project retires. And you certainly want to get people moving to the new resource before that happens. Please let me know if you have any more questions. Cheers Christian @FrankR: You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the Apache SVN tree). [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine) https://github.com/alown/wave]. When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking, Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is not to be underestimated for getting development support]. @Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). @Thomas: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together, but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But this is something that must be done). @Thomas/FrankR: how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we struggle to maintain active developers here). The other problem, is that at ~500,000 LOC of Java, it is not easy for new people to get involved. (@Ewan: This ties in to your point, but it would take more than a few weeks to get someone familiar with this codebase [I have been focused almost exclusively on the server code for the last ~3 years, but I still couldn't tell you exactly how it all fits together - which is why the corruption issues are still outstanding]). I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. This I agree with, but it also tells us what our actual aim should be: A clearly separated library for using WFP to create things - of which the
Re: Incubation status
@Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). this is precisely Why we have to dogfood it, because when the problems happen in something semi critical like a discussion about wave it will more likely get fixed. im glad someone is finally bringing all of this up though, it needed to be said. On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, On 28 Nov 2013, at 15:18, Ali Lown wrote: @Christian: Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions about the future of Wave. Sad :-| Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is the right place for Wave (in its current form). The Incubator has a specific goal. Maybe once the project has an active (developing!) community again, the ASF might be the right place again. One large benefit speaking for such an org as the ASF is that we maintain a clean IP. Its reducing risk for companies. However, if you start carefully with that at GitHub too its no problem. Not even to come back. (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license? Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?) In ASF terms it goes to the attic which is a read-only repository. The code there remains in AL 2.0. With AL 2.0 it is possible for you to fork it to GitHub which is more or less what happens. You can work on the code as you like and release your own packages in the way you like. However you can't simply change the license of some existing code. I don't know the specifics but if you plan to change the license it's better to ask some other folks here at the ASF. If want to keep AL 2.0 which I would love, then no problem. There will be one issue to solve which is the trademarks thing. To my knowledge the trademark has been transferred to the ASF. We need to ask at Apache Branding if you want to keep the current names. Usually the ASF keeps trademarks. In example, the Apache iBatis project renamed itself to MyBatis after moving away. However in incubating projects I have seen people taking away the names too, like Zeta Components. Once this has been cleared it should be no problem for you to move on. Please note that you should set up a new mailinglist before the retirement happens. ML are closed once the project retires. And you certainly want to get people moving to the new resource before that happens. Please let me know if you have any more questions. Cheers Christian @FrankR: You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the Apache SVN tree). [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine) https://github.com/alown/wave]. When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking, Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is not to be underestimated for getting development support]. @Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). @Thomas: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together, but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But this is something that must be done). @Thomas/FrankR: how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything actually done? It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we struggle to maintain
Re: Incubation status
On 28 November 2013 15:41, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ewan I agree with you. Here are my skills. - Competent in GWT, i.e. Java + HTML + CSS + JS. The UI of wave is built with GWT, right? - Basic understanding in XMPP. - More on my Google+ profile https://plus.google.com/u/0/+FrankR/about My available hours should be flexible. Maximum, 10 hours. Yes, the client is GWT based. For what its worth I am much the same. - GWT Java + HTML/CSS/ (a little) Javascript. - Java for Android (if the client was separated, I am confident enough to make at least a basic Android client). - Php/MySQL. - Some flash/actionscript but Id rather not. - Commodore Basic 3.1 Could contribute about 10 hours a week easily. -Thomas Wrobel
Re: Incubation status
It seems like this sort of discussion comes up whenever Apache asks us about our status. Suddenly people who have not commented in months bring up how they can support the project. Having Apache give us deadlines seems to be the greatest source of motivation. If we move to GitHub, where will that motivation come from? I will join the “here is what I can do” party by saying my best skills remain JavaScript(+HTML+CSS) and Python, so I will happily work on a client once the server and client are separated and other clients can be developed, but there is relatively little I can do right now on the main WIAB project. I continue to work on gadgets, the WEGhttp://waveextensions.org, and wave-related Chrome extensions. —Zachary Yaro On 28 November 2013 11:36, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 November 2013 15:41, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ewan I agree with you. Here are my skills. - Competent in GWT, i.e. Java + HTML + CSS + JS. The UI of wave is built with GWT, right? - Basic understanding in XMPP. - More on my Google+ profile https://plus.google.com/u/0/+FrankR/about My available hours should be flexible. Maximum, 10 hours. Yes, the client is GWT based. For what its worth I am much the same. - GWT Java + HTML/CSS/ (a little) Javascript. - Java for Android (if the client was separated, I am confident enough to make at least a basic Android client). - Php/MySQL. - Some flash/actionscript but Id rather not. - Commodore Basic 3.1 Could contribute about 10 hours a week easily. -Thomas Wrobel
Re: Incubation status
For those calling for a new place to both a) dogfood the product b) discuss the next development stage at the same time! Register an account on https://wave-dev.alown.co.uk, and join the discussions. (Shameless plug) Ali On 28 November 2013 15:32, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote: @Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). this is precisely Why we have to dogfood it, because when the problems happen in something semi critical like a discussion about wave it will more likely get fixed. im glad someone is finally bringing all of this up though, it needed to be said. On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, On 28 Nov 2013, at 15:18, Ali Lown wrote: @Christian: Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again): Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions about the future of Wave. Sad :-| Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now? If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal. Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation until the community around Wave has grown. I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is the right place for Wave (in its current form). The Incubator has a specific goal. Maybe once the project has an active (developing!) community again, the ASF might be the right place again. One large benefit speaking for such an org as the ASF is that we maintain a clean IP. Its reducing risk for companies. However, if you start carefully with that at GitHub too its no problem. Not even to come back. (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license? Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?) In ASF terms it goes to the attic which is a read-only repository. The code there remains in AL 2.0. With AL 2.0 it is possible for you to fork it to GitHub which is more or less what happens. You can work on the code as you like and release your own packages in the way you like. However you can't simply change the license of some existing code. I don't know the specifics but if you plan to change the license it's better to ask some other folks here at the ASF. If want to keep AL 2.0 which I would love, then no problem. There will be one issue to solve which is the trademarks thing. To my knowledge the trademark has been transferred to the ASF. We need to ask at Apache Branding if you want to keep the current names. Usually the ASF keeps trademarks. In example, the Apache iBatis project renamed itself to MyBatis after moving away. However in incubating projects I have seen people taking away the names too, like Zeta Components. Once this has been cleared it should be no problem for you to move on. Please note that you should set up a new mailinglist before the retirement happens. ML are closed once the project retires. And you certainly want to get people moving to the new resource before that happens. Please let me know if you have any more questions. Cheers Christian @FrankR: You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the Apache SVN tree). [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine) https://github.com/alown/wave]. When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking, Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is not to be underestimated for getting development support]. @Fleeky: lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;) I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark). @Thomas: Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together, but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But this is something that must be done). @Thomas/FrankR: how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging things again that have
Re: Incubation status
Hi Ali Am 28.11.13 15:18, schrieb Ali Lown: I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. This I agree with, but it also tells us what our actual aim should be: A clearly separated library for using WFP to create things - of which the client/server are examples... Ultimately, from my point of view, a move to GitHub would provide us with several things: - Full Git integration (The Apache system is still very awkward to use and git-svn still chokes on things occasionally). - The GitHub 'ethic' - hard to explain - The opportunity to change the working style. I feel that the 'meritocracy' approach only works well for clearly established projects. Wave has too many options - and it is this that is dividing the effort going in to it. Making decisions here is proving incredibly difficult, getting votes for releases is very difficult, etc. As such, I would push for a much clearer philosophy of the 'new project'. Yes, this are the advantage of GitHub. But if you make a decision, you have also to look at the disadvantage. GitHub is a code dump plattform driven by a company. You can dump nearly anything there. No one cares about Copyright or Licensing. The entry barriere is realy low. This is nice if you have a small smart project driven by volunteers.(no payed developers). For Companies this is probabily to risky. They need to have clean IP. At GitHub you will probabily find some freeky developer, who has time to spend same hours on the weekend. But you loos probabily the interest of Companies. Wave is not a small project and I doupt that you can drive this project with free time developers only. I think, a move to GitHub will just extend the lifetime a bit, but not prevent wave from the dead. Freaky developers don't like complicate projects. They need to have fast success, to keep the motivation up. They like to do cool new features, not nasty bugfixes. I don't think this is the sort of people we need here. Wave has many similarities to OpenOffice. Wave was developed in a Company with a load of manpower. It was droped and the Company hands over a codebase (wich is not easy to read) to a independed community. Moast of the formar developers are any longer active. This makes the life not easyer. But wave has also a big commercial potential. And for my point of view, the ASF is one of the best Organisation at FLOSS to get Companies involved. The big problem of wave is, that there is no road map, no goal, nothing. I'm sure, anyone of us has different things in mind, what to do with wave. But without sharing our own interests, we will never find the direction of the project. And no company would invest money in a project without roadmap. Or in short Wave missing a roadmap and a common goal. I don't think, that a move to GitHub will solve this problem. IMOH Wave is on the right place at Apache. Next important Steps: - Find the common Goals - create roadmap - make a release. - communicate it to the outside world. - focusing more on the commercial potential of Wave Greetings Raphael Sorry about the long email. :) Comments Ali
