[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
At 10/5/2003, you wrote: That's excellent, Dave! Would you mind if I quoted that to a few marketing lists I'm on? I think there are some very good lessons to be found in it. Be my guest. --Dave The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
That's excellent, Dave! Would you mind if I quoted that to a few marketing lists I'm on? I think there are some very good lessons to be found in it. Cheers, Tom Fosson At 02:53 AM 10/05/2003 -0400, you wrote: My apologies for the long delay in responding... We got a contract that took me across the state. I've been warned about giving actual pricing info, so let me talk in some general terms... Our "high" pricing on most programming and database projects primarily has to do with "weeding out" problem clients. When we first started out, we had fairly low pricing on programming contracts, but the majority of contracts we got were from what I would class as "troublemakers". Clients who questioned every nickle on every invoice and who expected all kinds of extras at no additional charge for our time. I finally got to the point that I was sick and tired of programming and we doubled our prices just so that things would slow down and I could figure out what we were gonna do. Surprise of surprises, doubling our prices didn't visibly reduce the number of clients we were seeing. Rather, the "class" of client just got better. We found that by charging more for our services we were dealing with clients who didn't argue about paying 50% of the project up front and who quibbled less about overages when the project scope changed. By going just a little farther with our pricing, we weeded out the last of the problem clients and now we only get one every once in a "great while". I attribute our ability to get those prices to three primary reasons... ** Confidence ** If you met me on the street you'd probably not give me a second glance and your first impression would probably be that of a "typical geek". Poorly shaven, always wearing shorts and a t-shirt and semi-thick glasses. But if you took a minute or two to talk with me, I believe that I would captivate you with my knowledge and my confidence in my abilities. I tell people that I am the ABSOLUTE BEST as what I do and I truly believe it. At a Microsoft Seminar (of all places), the speaker once asked a question that kept me up several nights before I finally came up with an answer... "If you were in an elevator with someone and they asked you what you did, and you had only 30 seconds to give them an answer that would make them interested in you and your business, what would you say?" I'll let you come up with your own answer, but the answer I came up with for myself has worked. We picked up our biggest client to date, Cisco Systems, because of an elevator ride at an XML conference in New York where I boldly introduced myself to an Exec from Cisco. I just got back from a job in Miami where we were the highest bidder for a contract. In fact, we were the ONLY bidder in 5 figures for the project. My wife called them on friday to follow up on the project and one of the questions she asked was why they chose our company. Their answer was that we were the only company that didn't budge on our bid when they tried to negotiate a lower price, we were the only company that guaranteed our price, and when I interviewed with them, I was the only person they met who had confidence that I could get the job done. The others had eagerly lowered their bids when pushed, warned that there might be cost overruns, and sweated in the meeting when asked a lot of technical questions. Even when I don't know the answer to a question, I still show confidence to the client. I don't make stuff up. I'm totally straight with them and make sure they know that no matter WHAT the problem is, I either HAVE the solution or I will FIND the solution. ** Communication ** Over 60% of our web contracts come from customers who were not satisfied with one of our rivals. And 90% of them came to us because of a lack of communication. We keep in touch with our customers constantly. Even after the project is done, we communicate with them regularly. Any employee that does not return a customer's call within 1 business day is warned. And if it happens again, their let go. By communicating with each and every one of our customers in a timely manner, we make them feel like their the most important clients on the planet to us. The funny thing is that probably half of the clients who come to us from our rivals have been to see us previously and went to our rival based on price alone. Because our prices are so high, they went elsewhere. We don't hold any grudges. If they come back to us, we accept them gladly. Of course, we don't give them any kind of a price break either. ** Punctuality ** Be on time. Make absolutely certain that your schedule is realistic. Our worst fiasco ever was a project that was supposed to take a few months and ended up taking over a year. It was one of our first big projects and I completely underestimated everything. Now we give ourselves plenty of time to finish a project and typically finish
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
My apologies for the long delay in responding... We got a contract that took me across the state. I've been warned about giving actual pricing info, so let me talk in some general terms... Our "high" pricing on most programming and database projects primarily has to do with "weeding out" problem clients. When we first started out, we had fairly low pricing on programming contracts, but the majority of contracts we got were from what I would class as "troublemakers". Clients who questioned every nickle on every invoice and who expected all kinds of extras at no additional charge for our time. I finally got to the point that I was sick and tired of programming and we doubled our prices just so that things would slow down and I could figure out what we were gonna do. Surprise of surprises, doubling our prices didn't visibly reduce the number of clients we were seeing. Rather, the "class" of client just got better. We found that by charging more for our services we were dealing with clients who didn't argue about paying 50% of the project up front and who quibbled less about overages when the project scope changed. By going just a little farther with our pricing, we weeded out the last of the problem clients and now we only get one every once in a "great while". I attribute our ability to get those prices to three primary reasons... ** Confidence ** If you met me on the street you'd probably not give me a second glance and your first impression would probably be that of a "typical geek". Poorly shaven, always wearing shorts and a t-shirt and semi-thick glasses. But if you took a minute or two to talk with me, I believe that I would captivate you with my knowledge and my confidence in my abilities. I tell people that I am the ABSOLUTE BEST as what I do and I truly believe it. At a Microsoft Seminar (of all places), the speaker once asked a question that kept me up several nights before I finally came up with an answer... "If you were in an elevator with someone and they asked you what you did, and you had only 30 seconds to give them an answer that would make them interested in you and your business, what would you say?" I'll let you come up with your own answer, but the answer I came up with for myself has worked. We picked up our biggest client to date, Cisco Systems, because of an elevator ride at an XML conference in New York where I boldly introduced myself to an Exec from Cisco. I just got back from a job in Miami where we were the highest bidder for a contract. In fact, we were the ONLY bidder in 5 figures for the project. My wife called them on friday to follow up on the project and one of the questions she asked was why they chose our company. Their answer was that we were the only company that didn't budge on our bid when they tried to negotiate a lower price, we were the only company that guaranteed our price, and when I interviewed with them, I was the only person they met who had confidence that I could get the job done. The others had eagerly lowered their bids when pushed, warned that there might be cost overruns, and sweated in the meeting when asked a lot of technical questions. Even when I don't know the answer to a question, I still show confidence to the client. I don't make stuff up. I'm totally straight with them and make sure they know that no matter WHAT the problem is, I either HAVE the solution or I will FIND the solution. ** Communication ** Over 60% of our web contracts come from customers who were not satisfied with one of our rivals. And 90% of them came to us because of a lack of communication. We keep in touch with our customers constantly. Even after the project is done, we communicate with them regularly. Any employee that does not return a customer's call within 1 business day is warned. And if it happens again, their let go. By communicating with each and every one of our customers in a timely manner, we make them feel like their the most important clients on the planet to us. The funny thing is that probably half of the clients who come to us from our rivals have been to see us previously and went to our rival based on price alone. Because our prices are so high, they went elsewhere. We don't hold any grudges. If they come back to us, we accept them gladly. Of course, we don't give them any kind of a price break either. ** Punctuality ** Be on time. Make absolutely certain that your schedule is realistic. Our worst fiasco ever was a project that was supposed to take a few months and ended up taking over a year. It was one of our first big projects and I completely underestimated everything. Now we give ourselves plenty of time to finish a project and typically finish "ahead of schedule" on most projects. Even more impressive... On many (but not all) projects, we include "penalties" in our contracts for not meeting deadlines. On several occasions, we've refunded money t
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Hi List, I've kind of let this slide a little, but I think it's time to remind everyone that price discussion is not allowed on this list. http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/tos.html 1. MEMBER CONDUCT v. Discussing in any way prices, fees, or wages for your services; I hate to break it up, since it's a really interesting thread, but we need to cease and desist from mentioning prices, fees and wages. Thanks all! Linda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Managing Editor DatabaseJournal http://databasejournal.com/ DBASupport http://dbasupport.com/ SQLCourse http://sqlcourse.com/ SQLCourse2 http://sqlcourse2.com/ The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
From what I can tell... It's a matter of perception. "Programming" is perceived to be very difficult and time consuming (and sometimes it is). For ASP Database programming we list $200/hour on our price sheet and we "discount" that to $150/hour when the client signs a contract for long term service. For general ASP/PhP programming we list at $150/hour with a discounted rate of $110/hour. For Windows application programming (the bulk of the work that I personally do), we list at $250/hour with no discounts. We do offer a 30% discount on the complete contract if we retain the rights to the program we create (so that we can resell the application). However, if the client keeps the rights to the application then we offer no discount. If we are required to sign a non-compete (we'll won't create a similar application for anyone else) then we add a $10,000++ surcharge, depending on the industry. On the database programming side, the bulk of the work we do is integrating data from existing applications (bookkeeping, inventory, etc.) into web-based applications for access by employees and customers. As an example, we're finishing up a job for a local furniture chain (5 stores) so they can share inventory with each other over the web. It's strictly so that their sales people know what's available in the other stores. The total cost of the project was $9,300 which included a new server at their main office running Win2k Server and IIS to host the app/data. We also had to integrate the system with their accounting software (Peachtree). What I can't understand is that people will easily believe that programming is difficult and expensive and don't fuss (for the most part) about pricing, but when you tell them that "designing" graphics for a web site is also a difficult process, they don't believe it. I guess they think that all artists are hippies or something. --Dave At 8/28/2003, you wrote: > We actually do very well with anything that requires programming (my > personal forte). We can get away with charging the client $150 to > $200/hour for database work. holy $deity i don't charge anywhere near that, and i think i'm pretty good at databases i'd be interested in hearing offlist from you, dave, how you go about marketing those hours i'm obviously doing something *way* wrong if you can get that i'm not saying you aren't worth it, just that i probably am too rudy The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%% The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
At 8/29/2003, you wrote: Do you mind working with designers in another country? I know two very good graphics designers and since they would be charging in Rands (we're in South Africa) you would be able to afford them. Im not sure how much they charge though, I can find out all the details if you want. We already do. All of the Flash stuff we have done is by a guy in Switzerland. At $65/hour he's pretty reasonable and he does great work. Since he can usually get most things done in 2 to 4 hours, we've not had problems with pricing for that. --Dave The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Dave wrote: > We actually do very well with anything that requires programming (my > personal forte). We can get away with charging the client $150 to > $200/hour for database work. rudy replied: holy $deity i don't charge anywhere near that, and i think i'm pretty good at databases i'm obviously doing something *way* wrong if you can get that i'm not saying you aren't worth it, just that i probably am too Tim sez: Yeah, me too. I wouldn't class myself with rudy, but... wow. :-) Tim The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Go to www.bluesquirrel.com and look at ClickBook (for PC or Macintosh) I've been using it since Version 1.0 and now it's up to 6.0 Also have a low cost PDF Maker and other useful bits. Peter MacGregor `At 04:15 29/08/2003, you wrote: Peter MacGregor wrote: "a magic piece of software I found that makes booklets out of Word documents of up to perhaps 80 pages with no human intervention other than telling it what format, sizes and margins etc you want - then it sorts out which page goes on the back of which other one (tricky when you are printing double sided landscape paper!) and prints as many copies as you wish on your inkjet or laser!" Better, yet! I would love to know what software program this is... Do tell... This is one something I'd be interested in as I do print up many booklets. Aligning the pages up front to back is a real pain in the neck! Thanks, Mary Rusinko - Omaha, NE, USA The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%% The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Hi Dave, Do you mind working with designers in another country? I know two very good graphics designers and since they would be charging in Rands (we're in South Africa) you would be able to afford them. Im not sure how much they charge though, I can find out all the details if you want. Let me know Sonja |+---> || Dave Navarro | || <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| || ru.com> | || | || 2003/08/29 | || 01:09 AM | || Please | || respond to | || wdvltalk | || | |+---> >-| | | | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | cc: | | Subject: [wdvltalk] Re: Small town | >-| At 8/28/2003, you wrote: >We all have these Kiddies in our small town, they think just because they >can insert a table and some background color they are web masters. One of them actually took my wife's 6-week Basic HTML class and then hung up his shingle. I need to send him a Christmas card this year because we've either re-done or completed 9 web sites from customers he made unhappy. >Another place you might look is your local college or university, they >usually have a fairly good art department, they have good talent, and you >can add to the students resume profile. You get to check out their talent >and abilities to create what you need, and they get credits for their degree. Oh, I've got ads up at the student unions and the college "employment" centers. But those who are willing to take $20 to $30/hour aren't good enough. And those who are good enough won't work for that (not that I blame them). I'm hoping that when my wife finishes her new XML book, she'll have time to work on more high-end contracts so that we can afford to pay more. --Dave ? The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM ? To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Peter MacGregor wrote: "a magic piece of software I found that makes booklets out of Word documents of up to perhaps 80 pages with no human intervention other than telling it what format, sizes and margins etc you want - then it sorts out which page goes on the back of which other one (tricky when you are printing double sided landscape paper!) and prints as many copies as you wish on your inkjet or laser!" Better, yet! I would love to know what software program this is... Do tell... This is one something I'd be interested in as I do print up many booklets. Aligning the pages up front to back is a real pain in the neck! Thanks, Mary Rusinko - Omaha, NE, USA The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
At 08:24 PM 8/28/2003 +0100, you wrote: Sorry, Deb, I didn't make myself clear. do you do your own designs or get them done for you? (graphics I'm talking about) Peter I do my own. Deb The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
> We actually do very well with anything that requires programming (my > personal forte). We can get away with charging the client $150 to > $200/hour for database work. holy $deity i don't charge anywhere near that, and i think i'm pretty good at databases i'd be interested in hearing offlist from you, dave, how you go about marketing those hours i'm obviously doing something *way* wrong if you can get that i'm not saying you aren't worth it, just that i probably am too rudy The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
At 8/28/2003, you wrote: On your small local sites its the add-ons that come later that bring in the extra cash, like adding shopping carts, catalogs, contact forms, upgrades to the site, and modifications to existing pages. We actually do very well with anything that requires programming (my personal forte). We can get away with charging the client $150 to $200/hour for database work. And I use that to subsidize the graphics side of the site when necessary. We just tend to get a lot of "2-3 page brochure sites." We develop it, put it up and it doesn't change for two or three years. --Dave The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
At 8/28/2003, you wrote: We all have these Kiddies in our small town, they think just because they can insert a table and some background color they are web masters. One of them actually took my wife's 6-week Basic HTML class and then hung up his shingle. I need to send him a Christmas card this year because we've either re-done or completed 9 web sites from customers he made unhappy. Another place you might look is your local college or university, they usually have a fairly good art department, they have good talent, and you can add to the students resume profile. You get to check out their talent and abilities to create what you need, and they get credits for their degree. Oh, I've got ads up at the student unions and the college "employment" centers. But those who are willing to take $20 to $30/hour aren't good enough. And those who are good enough won't work for that (not that I blame them). I'm hoping that when my wife finishes her new XML book, she'll have time to work on more high-end contracts so that we can afford to pay more. --Dave The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
I haven't seen any templates that I would use, but haven't looked at many either. If you live within 100 miles of a college or tech school, you may be able to get an intern. AuntySpam, SLP Coordinator, pspug.org http://www.pspug.org/edu/edu.shtml http://www.pspug.org/edu/slp/assign.shtml http://www.pspug.org/edu/slp/slpparticipants.htm - Original Message - From: "Dave Navarro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 8:49 AM Subject: [wdvltalk] Small town Sometimes, living in a small town can really bite. We had a really outstanding graphics artist working for us. All of his work is exemplary. Unfortunately, we couldn't afford to keep him. Another web design company (in Orlando) offered him a significant salary increase. --Dave . The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM . To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%% The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Sorry, Deb, I didn't make myself clear. do you do your own designs or get them done for you? (graphics I'm talking about) Peter At 19:42 28/08/2003, you wrote: Quoting Peter MacGregor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > How do you solve the problem, Deb? I'm not an artist either, so am always > looking for ideas. By offering custom design to all my clients. If someone requested a template, I would do it for them, but my site designs are all original. No 2 clients of mine will have the same design. Deb > > Peter MacGregor > > At 17:23 28/08/2003, you wrote: > >At 11:10 AM 8/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >>The problem with using templates for web sites is they all look alike > >>after a little while, there is no room for innovation or customization > >>for your clients. Templates are great for letters, invoices, and lists, > >>but disaster for web sites. > > > > > >I agree, to much same ol' same ol' plus I just happen to be one that > >prefers that my work be unique for each client. I would be bored to tears > >just using templates all the time. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%% The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Quoting Peter MacGregor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > How do you solve the problem, Deb? I'm not an artist either, so am always > looking for ideas. By offering custom design to all my clients. If someone requested a template, I would do it for them, but my site designs are all original. No 2 clients of mine will have the same design. Deb > > Peter MacGregor > > At 17:23 28/08/2003, you wrote: > >At 11:10 AM 8/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: > >>The problem with using templates for web sites is they all look alike > >>after a little while, there is no room for innovation or customization > >>for your clients. Templates are great for letters, invoices, and lists, > >>but disaster for web sites. > > > > > >I agree, to much same ol' same ol' plus I just happen to be one that > >prefers that my work be unique for each client. I would be bored to tears > >just using templates all the time. The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Many of the longer contributing (was going to say 'older' but decided not to!) members of this list will recall we've had this problem about fees many tims. A lot of you have had a copy of a booklet I produced some years ago and have kept pretty much up to date ever since. I was having the same problem with my one-man band Management Consultancy - "You're small, why do you expect to charge what the big boys do?" was the usual trend of complaints about quotes. If you give a little thought to this you can probably modify it to relate to your situation and then when someone complains, just leave a copy with them. This normally is presented as a small 8 x 5 inch (approx) booklet with a cover - all thanks to a magic piece of software I found that makes booklets out of Word documents of up to perhaps 80 pages with no human intervention other than telling it what format, sizes and margins etc you want - then it sorts out which page goes on the back of which other one (tricky when you are printing double sided landscape paper!) and prints as many copies as you wish on your inkjet or laser! Anyone wants a copy - in "flat" Word format to mess with, just email me Off-List and I'll forward it as an attachment. (remember - no attachments allowed on this list so no point replying here! Peter MacGregor At 16:49 28/08/2003, you wrote: Sometimes, living in a small town can really bite. We had a really outstanding graphics artist working for us. All of his work is exemplary. Unfortunately, we couldn't afford to keep him. Another web design company (in Orlando) offered him a significant salary increase. My wife and I took a real hard look at the company's finances to see if we could get close, but in our market, it's just not possible. Now we have a problem that all of the sites and graphics he's designed for us look fantastic, and neither my wife, nor myself are talented in that area. So... My question is... Is there anyone else purchasing site design templates and using them? I've found a number of sources for nice looking site designs that can be purchased at a "somewhat" reasonable cost. But I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. They are certainly 400% better than anything I can produce and we've been unable to find another talented graphics person that we can afford. So, for the moment, it appears to be the only way we can attempt to maintain the high standard we set for ourselves when we hired our previous designer. --Dave The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%% The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
How do you solve the problem, Deb? I'm not an artist either, so am always looking for ideas. Peter MacGregor At 17:23 28/08/2003, you wrote: At 11:10 AM 8/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: The problem with using templates for web sites is they all look alike after a little while, there is no room for innovation or customization for your clients. Templates are great for letters, invoices, and lists, but disaster for web sites. I agree, to much same ol' same ol' plus I just happen to be one that prefers that my work be unique for each client. I would be bored to tears just using templates all the time. Deb www.puterbug.com www.pixelresources.net The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to %%email.unsub%% The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Dave Navarro wrote: At 8/28/2003, you wrote: The problem with using templates for web sites is they all look alike after a little while, there is no room for innovation or customization for your clients. Templates are great for letters, invoices, and lists, but disaster for web sites. I mostly agree with you. However, I found www.boxedart.com which has a yearly subscription for $39 and a little over 100 nice templates online. We only do about 40 web sites a year, so I can use a number of them without duplication (on my part) and as I mentioned previously, they are MUCH better than anything I can produce. Sadly, I have to compete with about 10-15 local "html kiddies" who are willing to create complete web sites for around $200. 99% of everything they do is total cr*p, but the "price" is attractive to all of the penny-pinchers around here (which is 90% of the local businesses). We all have these Kiddies in our small town, they think just because they can insert a table and some background color they are web masters. Another place you might look is your local college or university, they usually have a fairly good art department, they have good talent, and you can add to the students resume profile. You get to check out their talent and abilities to create what you need, and they get credits for their degree. Most of my clients come to me after they've been burned by one of the independents and are still trying to pinch-pennies as much as they can. We have a railroad track running through our town, occasionally we can see one of the local merchants placing a penny on the tracks to see if he can get more out of the penny after the train goes by. :-D On our last project, I found a sub-contractor who did great work, but we made next to nothing. 90% of the fee paid by the client went to the sub-contractor. I simply can't afford what good work is "actually worth" on most of our sites. On your small local sites its the add-ons that come later that bring in the extra cash, like adding shopping carts, catalogs, contact forms, upgrades to the site, and modifications to existing pages. Fortunately, we get a few "big dollar" web sites each year from my wife's HTML/XHTML books to make up for all the "little sites" we do. And when we get those, I am certainly willing to pay $80/hour plus for graphics design because the client can afford it. --Dave Good luck, Michael -- Character is doing the right thing... Even when no one is watching... http://www.armadilloweb.com The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
At 8/28/2003, you wrote: The problem with using templates for web sites is they all look alike after a little while, there is no room for innovation or customization for your clients. Templates are great for letters, invoices, and lists, but disaster for web sites. I mostly agree with you. However, I found www.boxedart.com which has a yearly subscription for $39 and a little over 100 nice templates online. We only do about 40 web sites a year, so I can use a number of them without duplication (on my part) and as I mentioned previously, they are MUCH better than anything I can produce. Sadly, I have to compete with about 10-15 local "html kiddies" who are willing to create complete web sites for around $200. 99% of everything they do is total cr*p, but the "price" is attractive to all of the penny-pinchers around here (which is 90% of the local businesses). Most of my clients come to me after they've been burned by one of the independents and are still trying to pinch-pennies as much as they can. On our last project, I found a sub-contractor who did great work, but we made next to nothing. 90% of the fee paid by the client went to the sub-contractor. I simply can't afford what good work is "actually worth" on most of our sites. Fortunately, we get a few "big dollar" web sites each year from my wife's HTML/XHTML books to make up for all the "little sites" we do. And when we get those, I am certainly willing to pay $80/hour plus for graphics design because the client can afford it. --Dave The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
At 11:10 AM 8/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: The problem with using templates for web sites is they all look alike after a little while, there is no room for innovation or customization for your clients. Templates are great for letters, invoices, and lists, but disaster for web sites. I agree, to much same ol' same ol' plus I just happen to be one that prefers that my work be unique for each client. I would be bored to tears just using templates all the time. Deb www.puterbug.com www.pixelresources.net The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[wdvltalk] Re: Small town
Dave Navarro wrote: Sometimes, living in a small town can really bite. We had a really outstanding graphics artist working for us. All of his work is exemplary. Unfortunately, we couldn't afford to keep him. Another web design company (in Orlando) offered him a significant salary increase. My wife and I took a real hard look at the company's finances to see if we could get close, but in our market, it's just not possible. Now we have a problem that all of the sites and graphics he's designed for us look fantastic, and neither my wife, nor myself are talented in that area. So... My question is... Is there anyone else purchasing site design templates and using them? I've found a number of sources for nice looking site designs that can be purchased at a "somewhat" reasonable cost. But I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not. They are certainly 400% better than anything I can produce and we've been unable to find another talented graphics person that we can afford. So, for the moment, it appears to be the only way we can attempt to maintain the high standard we set for ourselves when we hired our previous designer. --Dave Hello Dave, One idea is to click on the link at the bottom of this list and check out the "Graphics" forum, you may find some talented free lancers that will work on a contract basis. Other places to look are the Google lists and forums posts. The problem with using templates for web sites is they all look alike after a little while, there is no room for innovation or customization for your clients. Templates are great for letters, invoices, and lists, but disaster for web sites. Michael Gordon -- Character is doing the right thing... Even when no one is watching... http://www.armadilloweb.com The WDVL Discussion List from WDVL.COM To Join wdvltalk, Send An Email To: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Send Your Posts To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To set a personal password send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the words: "set WDVLTALK pw=yourpassword" in the body of the email. To change subscription settings to the wdvltalk digest version: http://wdvl.internet.com/WDVL/Forum/#sub http://www.wdvl.com ___ You are currently subscribed to wdvltalk as: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
