Re: Regarding Final Note
There have been many mails on WO passing. First of all it didn't until now, and it won't for some time (at least that is what I think). But anyway. With the introduction of Webobject 5.4 and Leopard we've seen two things: 1. Java isn't top priority anymore (look at Java 6 not being there...). 2. Therefore also Webobjects can't be. They didn't even manage to launch a new webobjects homepage synchronized with the release of Leopard and in Server Features it isn't leasted under the key technologie section. And to be honest, the progress they made since 5.3 in my view is a little dissapointing altough going in the right direction. They now mainly rely on help from the superbe wonder community for tools and anything. But in the end their pushing other technologies in place... I don't believe this is the case. First of all, their release plan with Java 6 basically matches their behavior with all previous releases of Java and demonstrates to me that it's as important as it's always been (whether that is high importance or not, who knows, but it seems at least consistent). There's a huge amount of speculation about what's going on, but I suspect the answer is it's coming out really soon, chill people. All these folks on the blogs who are so worked up about Java 6, I'm curious what exactly the features are of 6 that they're really that upset about not having right now? It seems to me Sun's pretty well lamed up the Java 6 release -- give me some REAL features, Sun -- don't just bundle a damn database in your VM. This is not by any means an excuse for Apple to delay releasing, I'd love the latest and greatest also, but looking at the differences, I'm not really all that upset. Secondly while 5.3 in many ways is just catching up with what Wonder and others have had for a while, I think it's forward momentum, and that's a good thing for the platform. Wonder has had 7 (or so) years of active development while WO has mostly stood still, so yeah, it's going to take a while to figure out what makes sense to go into the platform and for them to bring those features in. And while I've disagreed with some of the specific 5.4 decisions, I think Pierre, Daryl, and crew have good intentions for the platform and I know they're actively working on making it better. Apple could have decided to not put a single more man hour into WO development, but instead they've made a fairly substantial turn in the past year or so and are actually trying to offer new developments. I do agree that the WO 5.3 webpage on Apple's site is pretty lame, but it's also a technology in a weird place at the moment. Do they show WOLips pictures there? Maybe, but I'm not sure there's much of a precedent for that. Give it time to work itself out. And honestly, if it doesn't, so be it. You're still using one of the best technologies around, and Apple not doing a damn thing for almost a decade hasn't really held you up thus far. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Regarding Final Note
And by the way, the move from Xcode + WOB + EOM to Eclipse + WOLips + EM is really no different than Apple's move from the old iMovie to iMovie 08. The big point of contention is that it's neither a clear upward or downward move. In some ways it's substantially better, in some ways it's worse, but, like Apple with iMovie, we (being WOLips and Apple) collectively believe that even though we took a step down in some areas, the overall trajectory of this direction is much stronger. I fully believe this for WOLips. Yes, graphical editing of tables isn't there yet, and you can't drag and drop bindings yet, but there's a HUGE amount of new stuff that IS there that makes a much stronger development platform to work off of. Think different ;) ms On Oct 30, 2007, at 4:27 PM, Thierry Kramis wrote: There have been many mails on WO passing. First of all it didn't until now, and it won't for some time (at least that is what I think). But anyway. With the introduction of Webobject 5.4 and Leopard we've seen two things: 1. Java isn't top priority anymore (look at Java 6 not being there...). 2. Therefore also Webobjects can't be. They didn't even manage to launch a new webobjects homepage synchronized with the release of Leopard and in Server Features it isn't leasted under the key technologie section. And to be honest, the progress they made since 5.3 in my view is a little dissapointing altough going in the right direction. They now mainly rely on help from the superbe wonder community for tools and anything. But in the end their pushing other technologies in place... Regards Thierry ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/mschrag%40mdimension.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Regarding Final Note
On Oct 30, 2007, at 4:31 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: And by the way, the move from Xcode + WOB + EOM to Eclipse + WOLips + EM is really no different than Apple's move from the old iMovie to iMovie 08. The big point of contention is that it's neither a clear upward or downward move. In some ways it's substantially better, in some ways it's worse, but, like Apple with iMovie, we (being WOLips and Apple) collectively believe that even though we took a step down in some areas, the overall trajectory of this direction is much stronger. I fully believe this for WOLips. Yes, graphical editing of tables isn't there yet, and you can't drag and drop bindings yet, but there's a HUGE amount of new stuff that IS there that makes a much stronger development platform to work off of. Think different ;) What I would love to see is a simple download and install package for WO developers. For example, the recommended Eclipse 3.3.1 and stable WOLips for WO5.4 development. Not sure if it's possible but that would be nice. And maybe bundle a README file with links pointing users to places pages where they can find more info. Since most real projects consist of reusable frameworks and applications that use them, I think a tutorial should cover how to build a framework and add that dependency to one of your apps. That should be helpful for beginners. Ricardo Parada ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Regarding Final Note
What I would love to see is a simple download and install package for WO developers. The biggest issue with this is that someone has to host the extra 100+ meg installer for a bunch of leeches to download :) But anyone could technically make a preinstalled bundle. For example, the recommended Eclipse 3.3.1 and stable WOLips for WO5.4 development. Not sure if it's possible but that would be nice. And maybe bundle a README file with links pointing users to places pages where they can find more info. Since most real projects consist of reusable frameworks and applications that use them, I think a tutorial should cover how to build a framework and add that dependency to one of your apps. Have you seen the wolips wiki? It has all of this. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
Ken, When did WO die? Alan On Oct 29, 2007, at 6:57 PM, Q wrote: The rumors of WO's death have been greatly exaggerated. There may be a changing of the guard when it comes to the development tools, but WO is most certainly still with us. On 30/10/2007, at 10:34 AM, Ken Foust wrote: To this Great Community: For seasoned developers the passing of WO is not a big deal. However for novice and part timers it is like a tragedy. There doesn't see to be a solution out there that was so complete. You could just buy Joshua Marker's book, build something and even make it functional. You didn't need to be a guru to make something run on the web with a database. If you ever built a successful project then the guru's would come and you would be off and running. It is like Apple is more interested in gadgets and not really business. But looking at their stock who could argue. It is interesting that the majority of the world overlooked this incredible product but then again they overlooked NeXTStep! This is a great community and I want to thank all of you for always taking the time to answer all the questions no matter how trivial. fousto ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award% 40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
The rumors of WO's death have been greatly exaggerated. There may be a changing of the guard when it comes to the development tools, but WO is most certainly still with us. On 30/10/2007, at 10:34 AM, Ken Foust wrote: To this Great Community: For seasoned developers the passing of WO is not a big deal. However for novice and part timers it is like a tragedy. There doesn't see to be a solution out there that was so complete. You could just buy Joshua Marker's book, build something and even make it functional. You didn't need to be a guru to make something run on the web with a database. If you ever built a successful project then the guru's would come and you would be off and running. It is like Apple is more interested in gadgets and not really business. But looking at their stock who could argue. It is interesting that the majority of the world overlooked this incredible product but then again they overlooked NeXTStep! This is a great community and I want to thank all of you for always taking the time to answer all the questions no matter how trivial. fousto ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/qdolan% 40gmail.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
On 29.10.2007, at 19:01, Alan Ward wrote: When did WO die? Years ago. Only nobody noticed ... cug, zombieing around ... ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
For seasoned developers the passing of WO is not a big deal. If WO is dead, then my wife really deserves an explanation of what I've been up to all these months. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
Hi there, On 30/10/2007, at 11:34 AM, Ken Foust wrote: To this Great Community: For seasoned developers the passing of WO is not a big deal. Passing? 5.4 just came out. However for novice and part timers it is like a tragedy. There doesn't see to be a solution out there that was so complete. You could just buy Joshua Marker's book, build something and even make it functional. You didn't need to be a guru to make something run on the web with a database. If you ever built a successful project then the guru's would come and you would be off and running. It is like Apple is more interested in gadgets and not really business. But looking at their stock who could argue. Okay, I see you're talking about the passing of the tools :). Or is that :-(. Depends on your perspective I guess. Well, it is what it is. Can't be helped now. But there's still a lot of help available... I'd say even more than before. If you need a visual editor, then there are numerous gui html editors out there that could serve you well. Granted, they'll not be an integrated solution. It is interesting that the majority of the world overlooked this incredible product but then again they overlooked NeXTStep! This is a great community and I want to thank all of you for always taking the time to answer all the questions no matter how trivial. with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
Well, it is what it is. Can't be helped now. But there's still a lot of help available... I'd say even more than before. If you need a visual editor, then there are numerous gui html editors out there that could serve you well. Granted, they'll not be an integrated solution. Not only that, but pro-WOBs / anti-WOLs keep talking like the current state is the forever state. Anyone who follows WOLips knows that story is far from over ... Just a week or two ago we had the WOB-ish Display Group editor submitted, which is a great addition for newbies. That and I have a personal vendetta against WOB, and thus am required to ultimately replace all of its functionality in some form or another piece by piece. It's like that stupid graphical view in EOModeler. I hate that thing, but I'm working on its replacement purely out of damaged pride that it's one of the few remaining features that EOModeler had that Entity Modeler does not. Never underestimate the ego of a sleepless programmer :) ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
my thoughts exactly I've got 8 years of 'splainin' to do :-) Alan On Oct 29, 2007, at 7:54 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: For seasoned developers the passing of WO is not a big deal. If WO is dead, then my wife really deserves an explanation of what I've been up to all these months. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/award% 40apple.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
On 30/10/2007, at 12:27 PM, Lachlan Deck wrote: Hi there, On 30/10/2007, at 11:34 AM, Ken Foust wrote: To this Great Community: For seasoned developers the passing of WO is not a big deal. Passing? 5.4 just came out. However for novice and part timers it is like a tragedy. There doesn't see to be a solution out there that was so complete. You could just buy Joshua Marker's book, build something and even make it functional. You didn't need to be a guru to make something run on the web with a database. If you ever built a successful project then the guru's would come and you would be off and running. It is like Apple is more interested in gadgets and not really business. But looking at their stock who could argue. Okay, I see you're talking about the passing of the tools :). Or is that :-(. Depends on your perspective I guess. I think, what Ken is talking about, and probably has a very legitimate case about is the passing of ease of development. Perhaps WO passed when the learning curve became the learning cliff. Wonder is great for what it does - that is if you can work out how to get it to do what it does. Eclipse – well still a lot of us are not enamoured with Eclipse, especially the 3.3 debacle, which Mike valiantly struggled against. (OK, I guess I can stick to Xcode, FWIW, since we are now doing a Cocoa project.) I think I disagree with Ken's point It is like Apple is more interested in gadgets and not really business. Well, it's not just Apple, but the whole world, although we needed things like CSS, Ajax, etc. No Apple is just responding to a demand there. Of course he could be talking about iPod and iPhone, but I think these are the future of information harvesting, and probably if Apple hadn't done decent products here, the Mac market would be going backwards instead of forwards in leaps and bounds. Teenagers of 10 years ago thought Apple sucked and was their parents technology – now teenagers think Apple is cool and the teenagers of 10 years ago are today's oldies. Hopefully, WO will be driving this new world in a few years time – if it can become a simple integrated development platform once more. Well, it is what it is. Can't be helped now. I think it can be helped and WWDC 07 was great to see so much going on in the WO world both inside and out of Apple. But there's still a lot of help available... I'd say even more than before. If you need a visual editor, then there are numerous gui html editors out there that could serve you well. Granted, they'll not be an integrated solution. It is interesting that the majority of the world overlooked this incredible product but then again they overlooked NeXTStep! Yeah, and they overlooked Burroughs as well (except Alan Kay groked it, so some stuff was saved!) This is a great community and I want to thank all of you for always taking the time to answer all the questions no matter how trivial. Ian ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A final note
On 30/10/2007, at 1:07 PM, Mike Schrag wrote: Not only that, but pro-WOBs / anti-WOLs keep talking like the current state is the forever state. Anyone who follows WOLips knows that story is far from over ... Just a week or two ago we had the WOB-ish Display Group editor submitted, which is a great addition for newbies. That and I have a personal vendetta against WOB, and thus am required to ultimately replace all of its functionality in some form or another piece by piece. :) It's like that stupid graphical view in EOModeler. I hate that thing, but I'm working on its replacement purely out of damaged pride that it's one of the few remaining features that EOModeler had that Entity Modeler does not. Never underestimate the ego of a sleepless programmer :) Hint: you just didn't realise that 'we know how you tick'. Think about it. Ever wondered why these threads keep coming up? We've all been secretly grinning... and I just can't hold it in any longer. But now I'm going to get it :-) You might like to join http:// lists.apple.com/wo-trojan-horse. It's the list dedicated to WO's future ;-) with regards, -- Lachlan Deck ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
